Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ErenJager]

If we exclude the whole Third-Party debate, what "Western" characters are even on the table? The majority of Nintendo's games are Japan-developed to my knowledge, so other than gems from studios like Retro it's not like there are glaring omissions from the roster that are "Western", are there?

I wish I could see what was on Sakurai's table, so I could give you an honest answer.

idk, Rayman had a trophy in Smash 4.

I have preferences for Crash, Banjo, Spyro, Earthworm Jim, Jazz Jack Rabbit, Conker because that's what I grew up with.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If the character was made in the West, they're blatantly a Western character. Diddy showed up in enough Japanese games, but it was noted that many Japanese people were surprised Little Mac got in. He's still viewed heavily as Western regardless of who owns them.

That's something people need to remember with things like this. The facts don't matter as much as how people view it at times. Just like how people forget that Ryu and MegaMan are literally owned by two different companies(different branches of the same one), and thus, can't be a package deal together since that's not how it works. Obviously they're both Capcom characters.

 

[ErenJager]

I don't see anything wrong with Vanilluxe He legit is my second most favourite pokémon after Chandelure

I just find vanilla to be a bland flavor.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Although Diddy & Mac were created by western devs.

They are owned by a Japanese company... and that's Nintendo...

Where did this come from?

Mac and all but one Punch-Out game were made by Nintendo R&D3, it's a Japanese series through and through.

The Wii game was outsourced to a western dev, but that's it. Though the series is far more popular outside of Japan.

Diddy Kong is the only character on the roster that was actually created by western devs (Rare).

 

[Jubileus57]

I just find vanilla to be a bland flavor.

To each their own tastes XD I personally find it far more interesting and enjoyable than most "super popular" Pokémon like Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, most starters, etc. Those bore me to death tbh.

 

[ErenJager]

If the character was made in the West, they're blatantly a Western character. Diddy showed up in enough Japanese games, but it was noted that many Japanese people were surprised Little Mac got in. He's still viewed heavily as Western regardless of who owns them.

That's something people need to remember with things like this. The facts don't matter as much as how people view it at times. Just like how people forget that Ryu and MegaMan are literally owned by two different companies(different branches of the same one), and thus, can't be a package deal together since that's not how it works. Obviously they're both Capcom characters.

Well... The fact is Diddy isn't showing up in any Rare (western company) games any time soon, but he's def gonna be in some Nintendo (Japanese company) titles.

But you're slightly convoluting the point... It's Smash has yet to add a playable character owned (key word) by a Western Company...

 

[ColietheGoalie]

To each their own tastes XD I personally find it far more interesting and enjoyable than most "super popular" Pokémon like Mewtwo, Lucario, Charizard, most starters, etc. Those bore me to death tbh.

See, I'm a bit of a paradox here I guess. Really not a fan of a Pokemon that's just an ice cream cone, but I love Chadelure, so it's not like "object pokemon" are inherently bad for me. Just never really dug the cone

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well... The fact is Diddy isn't showing up in any Rare (western company) games any time soon, but he's def gonna be in some Nintendo (Japanese company) titles.

But you're slightly convoluting the point... It's Smash has yet to add a playable character owned (key word) by a Western Company...

My point was clearly that people still don't know/view it that way. Not saying you're wrong, because you aren't. I don't think it actually matters that much though, regardless. But who knows, maybe you'll be right and we won't see a playable Western character.

 

[ErenJager]

My point was clearly that people still don't know/view it that way. Not saying you're wrong, because you aren't. I don't think it actually matters that much though, regardless. But who knows, maybe you'll be right and we won't see a playable Western character.

Could go either way.

I personally wanna se Tecmo Koei get in on Smash... They've been fairly involvled with the Hyrule Warriors and Fire Emblem Warriors.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Could go either way.

I personally wanna se Tecmo Koei get in on Smash... They've been fairly involvled with the Hyrule Warriors and Fire Emblem Warriors.

Lana would be cool. And it could go more than one way.

Linkle would be interesting as a trophy. Also, from what I remember reading on Miiverse/Twitter, the concept for a female Link came up way before HW, but Linkle was specifically designed for the series. It kind of makes sense too. Link being male is actually meant to be something important, so the idea was scrapped.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Linkle would make a sick Smash character, honestly. While my preference from Hyrule Warriors would be Lana, Linkle is a very close second.

 

[Cosmic77]

Linkle would make a sick Smash character, honestly. While my preference from Hyrule Warriors would be Lana, Linkle is a very close second.

Any of the Hyrule Warriors characters would be great, but I'd prefer to get Lana or Linkle just because the pair originate from that game. Seems more fitting if Sakurai wants to add someone from that game.

However, a large part of me thinks we'd be lucky to get anything Hyrule Warriors related in Smash. Aside from the Mario games, spin-offs rarely get recognized in Smash.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think the thing with Western third parties is that there is an added language barrier between Sakurai and the Western third party company. At least characters like Diddy Kong are in house at Nintendo currently. Third parties are hard to negotiate with as is, so add in another hoop to go through and it become more of a hassle to include a character with. Which is why I think we'd be lucky enough to get even one Western third party in, let alone a bunch of them.

At least that's what I think...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think the thing with Western third parties is that there is an added language barrier between Sakurai and the Western third party company. At least characters like Diddy Kong are in house at Nintendo currently. Third parties are hard to negotiate with as is, so add in another hoop to go through and it become more of a hassle to include a character with. Which is why I think we'd be lucky enough to get even one Western third party in, let alone a bunch of them.

At least that's what I think...

Though it's clearly easier with some than others. Capcom USA for instance. But then again, the lack of SF content could be due to the language barrier. If it wasn't a DLC budget thing, anyway.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I thought about saying something about a language barrier earlier, but I doubt finding a translator would be that tough. Our boy Bill Trinen is here, and I'm sure there are plenty of other translators within Nintendo that would be willing to help. It adds an extra piece to putting everything together, but I doubt that would stop Sakurai if he was serious about a Western character.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Characters more likely than you think: #4
Character: Celica
Universe: Fire Emblem
Debut: Fire Emblem Gaiden (1991)

Celica's History:
Celica debuted in Fire Emblem Gaiden for the Super Famicom in 1991 as one of the two protagonists. It was the second installment in the Fire Emblem series and was remade for Nintendo 3DS in 2017 as Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia.

Why Celica?:
Not only is Fire Emblem Gaiden the first sequel to the series, but its remake is now the most recent installment of the series and as a result, Celica is one of the few Fire Emblem heroes to make multiple appearances as a main character. She also appears as a playable character in Fire Emblem Warriors.

What makes Celica unique?:

Celica is a preistess. A class that is new to Super Smash Bros. She has the power of Fire, Seraphim, Thunder, Recover, and Aura. She has many other divine abilities as well, including shooting a beam of light from the tip of her sword upward into the sky, as well as the ability to spawn angel wings.

See 2:38 for her unique abilities.

It's not certain if a Fire Emblem 16 character will make a playable appearance in Super Smash Bros for Nintendo Switch, but it seems unlikely. If such is the case, Celica is nearly a shoo in.

Whether or not she will appear alongside Alm or if they will be separated once again is up for debate, but if either of them appear alone, Celica is both the more unique option and she has appeared alone in Fire Emblem Warriors.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Though it's clearly easier with some than others. Capcom USA for instance. But then again, the lack of SF content could be due to the language barrier. If it wasn't a DLC budget thing, anyway.

Holy ****. I did not realize that Sakurai technically already negotiated with a Western third-party company. Maybe Sakurai would have enough experience to communicate to Ubisoft after Ryu's addition.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I thought about saying something about a language barrier earlier, but I doubt finding a translator would be that tough. Our boy Bill Trinen is here, and I'm sure there are plenty of other translators within Nintendo that would be willing to help. It adds an extra piece to putting everything together, but I doubt that would stop Sakurai if he was serious about a Western character.

They successfully talked with Ubisoft. There's probably more to it than that. It could actually be a xenophobic thing, though it's definitely not a major thing even then.

Holy ****. I did not realize that Sakurai technically already negotiated with a Western third-party company. Maybe Sakurai would have enough experience to communicate to Ubisoft after Ryu's addition.

Well, the Rayman trophy required licensing too.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I know Linkle was made by KT but is she wholly or partially owned by Nintendo? 'Cause if we're getting KT involved, we may as well have Ryu Hiabusa of Ninja Gaiden fame.

 

[Curious Villager]

I'd hate to see Sakurai be called racist this time around or having a "Japan bias" if there aren't any Western third parties in this game. The guy can't catch a break can he? I guess we'll see how these negotiations will go.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

If Hyrule Warriors got representation I'd prefer Linkle over anyone else created for it.

She and Wizzro were the only things created for that game that felt Zelda to me.

Volga, Lana, and Cia were cool, but something about their concepts just didn't scream ''Zelda" to me.

 

[ErenJager]

Holy ****. I did not realize that Sakurai technically already negotiated with a Western third-party company. Maybe Sakurai would have enough experience to communicate to Ubisoft after Ryu's addition.

A little generous saying Capcom USA is western.... It's a subsidiary of Capcom a Japanese company.

I guess Sakurai negotiates regularly with Nintendo America, all Smash's characters are western.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'd hate to see Sakurai be called racist this time around or having a "Japan bias" if there aren't any Western third parties in this game. The guy can't catch a break can he? I guess we'll see how these negotiations will go.

Xenophobic isn't really meaning racist. It's just more he doesn't tend to look at other parts of the world as much. This is fairly common in Japan. Though yeah, it has a bad stigma to even use that word. I am honestly hoping it's more a coincidence at this point.

He clearly respects other races, etc. He has talked to Western developers too. Whether it's branches or full-out ones.

 

[Ura]

I said you can make the argument, I wasn't stating it as fact. And just because you think Andy would be a good fit into Smash Bros. doesn't mean Sakurai does.

Why woudn't he be? He's a CO in the Orange Star Army and has experience as a fighter. Why wouldn't he be viewed as a fit for Smash? You're losing me right now.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

A little generous saying Capcom USA is western.... It's a subsidiary of Capcom a Japanese company.

I guess Sakurai negotiates regularly with Nintendo America, all Smash's characters are western.

It's funny that you split hairs but accuse people of splitting hairs.

Mate, like..wut.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's funny that you split hairs but accuse people of splitting hairs.

Mate, like..wut.

Plus, even if you don't count a USA Company spot, Ubisoft proves that Sakurai has negotiated with Western companies. There's no splitting hairs there. He's clearly willing to discuss stuff with them. Not the exact same case as getting a character, but doesn't much change that he talks with Western companies too.

 

[ErenJager]

It's funny that you split hairs but accuse people of splitting hairs.

Mate, like..wut.

I'm not splitting hairs.

Capcom owns Capcom USA.
Major companies and corporations have divisions all over the world because their products are distributed world wide.
Capcom is a Japanese company.

No hairs are split.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'm not splitting hairs.

Capcom owns Capcom USA.
Major companies and corporations have divisions all over the world because their products are distributed world wide.
Capcom is a Japanese company.

No hairs are split.

Your whole thing is ''HE DOES NOT REACH OUT OR TALK TO WESTERN AREAS."

Ubisoft and Capcom USA say ''No, fam. He does."

Capcom USA is still in the West. Whether you like it or not. It's a western side of a Japanese company, but still Western.

And yes, you were splitting hairs to get your point across but it's okay, boo.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Holy ****. I did not realize that Sakurai technically already negotiated with a Western third-party company. Maybe Sakurai would have enough experience to communicate to Ubisoft after Ryu's addition.

I mean at that point we're going with extreme technicalities. For all intents and purposes Ryu is a japanese characters (I mean he is literally from Japan )

I wouldn't put any stock in that mattering for other western thrid parties.

Why woudn't he be? He's a CO in the Orange Star Army and has experience as a fighter. Why wouldn't he be viewed as a fit for Smash? You're losing me right now.

I mean. . .he is never seen fighting. Just in an advisory role. He doesn't actually have any shown fighting experience unless i'm misinformed. Any moves he would use in smash would have to be completely made up other than Hyper Repair, since that is the only real action he has.

I can see why someone would have a problem with considering a character who really only observes from a distance.

 

[MrReyes96]

Why do people always want black shadow to take ganondorf’s moveset? Aside from being from he same series, isn’t black shadow’s vehicle supposed to be even faster than captain falcon’s?
I always thought Hades from Kid Icarus would make more sense, and since Sakurai mains him(I believe) and he created him it would make sense.
Just a random thought
Though I would prefer Viridi or Medusa over him

 

[Bootortle]

Do you guys think we'll get any news before e3, or will we be waiting until june for more info?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'd hate to see Sakurai be called racist this time around or having a "Japan bias" if there aren't any Western third parties in this game. The guy can't catch a break can he? I guess we'll see how these negotiations will go.

The lack of DK newcomers in Smash 4 didn't help counter the assumption of "Japan Bias". I mean a lot of people already argue under the assumption that Japan will always get prioritised which is why there is the assumption that we won't get any Western third-party characters.

 

[ErenJager]

Your whole thing is ''HE DOES NOT REACH OUT OR TALK TO WESTERN AREAS."

Ubisoft and Capcom USA say ''No, fam. He does."

Capcom USA is still in the West. Whether you like it or not. It's a western side of a Japanese company, but still Western.

And yes, you were splitting hairs to get your point across but it's okay, boo.

I never said what you quoted... even once.

All I've ever said is there are no playable character that are owned by a western video game company in smash yet.

That trend could continue or be broken in Smash 5.

I've never said Sakurai doesn't speak with Western companies... I said if anything the reason there are only JPN third party characters is based on regional and linguistic ease of accessibility.

Ubisoft reached out to Sakurai and provided a model for a trophy... he wasn't playable in Smash 4.

There are more assets and collaboration required for a playable character vs. a trophy.

 

[Hinata]

Do you guys think we'll get any news before e3, or will we be waiting until june for more info?

The general consensus is that most people believe we'll be getting SOMETHING before E3, mostly because Nintendo is having a tournament for this game at E3, and it'd be weird for them to just throw us into the event completely blind.

 

[lltacx]

I actually talked to the shove knight devs at PAX East and asked them about this specifically. Now I doubt they would have told me either way, but they told me not to get my hopes up. I personally wouldn't bet on it.

Oh that's actually really sad

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Why do people always want black shadow to take ganondorf’s moveset? Aside from being front he same series, I sn’t black shadow’s vehicle supposed to be even faster than captain falcon’s?

Though let's also remember Captain Falcon is both the full version of the beta Dragon The Fighting King designs and based off of Japanese superheroes. His speed is blatantly a reference to his vehicle, though. As are a few moves(Raptor Boost especially, and maybe Falcon Dive).

Ganondorf's moveset is about being a powerful mage who uses his magic for powerful attacks. It fits him beyond well because he's been a physical attacker heavily in the series, even so far as OOT's design. Regular Ganon is actually far more magic-based in comparison. His updated moves used attacks like his Chokehold, which is something WW and TP Ganondorf use. The whole physical brawler thing is extremely related to him. It's more that he could use his sword more and maybe have a bit more range with some magic at this point that would help. The moveset fits him well, but it also is unbalanced too.

 

[ErenJager]

I'm not splitting hairs.

Capcom is a Japanese company with buildings world wide.
One of them is in america... known as Capcom USA... it's still owned by Capcom...
Just as Nintendo America is owned by Nintendo...

So if there's a Wal-Mart is Canada... but it's owned by the american company... it's now a Canadian company?

Nope... Wal-Mart's still an American company regardless of where they pop up in the world.

Ironically arguing against this is splitting hairs.

Tree Gelbman please stop calling me "fam" and "boo" it's mildly inappropriate.
And if the moderator could stop liking these comments which contain condescending names, that would be great.

 

[Ura]

I mean. . .he is never seen fighting. Just in an advisory role. He doesn't actually have any shown fighting experience unless i'm misinformed. Any moves he would use in smash would have to be completely made up other than Hyper Repair, since that is the only real action he has.

I can see why someone would have a problem with considering a character who really only observes from a distance.

He's a Commanding Officer and is shown in the cover art of Advance Wars to be using a tank. Additionally, his bio in Dual Strike states that by the time of the game's events, Andy earned fame as a war hero.

Honestly, this notion of "Andy can't fight" is so stupid. Even if it were to be true, it's not like it even prevents certain characters from fighting anyways.

 

[A Distant Demon]

He's a Commanding Officer and is shown in the cover art of Advance Wars to be using a tank.

Well yeah but you're not going to fit an entire tank onto a smash stage lol.

Honestly, this notion of "Andy can't fight" is so stupid. Even if it were to be true, it's not like it even prevents certain characters from fighting anyways.

A. Villager still had infinitely more content to work with since he is actually performing actions so that doesn't really work for an argument.
B. calling someone's argument stupid to their face is kind of mean. I thought my post was pretty polite for a devil's advocacy post :/

 

[Ura]

Well yeah but you're not going to fit an entire tank onto a smash stage lol.

Why would the tank's size be an issue here? It's not like Andy would be confined in the tank.

A. Villager still had infinitely more content to work with since he is actually performing actions so that doesn't really work for an argument.
B. calling someone's argument stupid to their face is kind of mean. I thought my post was pretty polite for a devil's advocacy post :/

That wasn't directed at you dude. I was speaking at the general notion people have that's dumb. Sorry if I came across as rude there.

Villager more or less borrows from other series for some of his moves. The things he does use are straightforward things from AC. Same applies to Andy. Literally nothing implies that he can't be using a Tank, Artillery, or whatever unit. Everything points to the opposite being true as with the case of AW1's cover art.