Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Tree Gelbman]

I too am a bit disturbed with the way that Bowser Jr. is being treated now. It's as if you can't have Bowser Jr. without his Koopa Clown Car anymore.

I think the actual problem is people like Bowser Jr, but they also like the Koopa Clown Car.

So Nintendo in a means to keep them both in the series just put the two together and haven't looked back.

Personally I myself don't really mind it. If his dad isn't using it at least he is and it makes him stand out from him instead of just being ''This is toddler brat Bowser."

 

[Zzuxon]

I should clarify...my point isn’t that characters don’t innately represent their series. That itself is a given. My issue comes from the fact that some fans simply say, “this character should get in to represent X game”, without any other context as to why.

A lot of choices that people are already repeating from the Wii U days are hitting the same wall. Toad is, once again, being talked about extensively. But if this is a game that focuses on unique move sets for new characters, why are we not throwing moveset ideas into the forefront? Having iconic characters is the point, yes, but not if they don’t have the ability to make somebody try them in-game.

You are right about the essence of the series when it comes to Robin. I think when Sakurai said that, he was also hinting at the fact that, alternatively, we would literally have 6 sword users from Fire Emblem if we hadn’t gotten Robin. That isn’t to say Chrom couldn’t have been made unique, or that sword users inherently aren’t unique. But for a series based on a weapon triangle and magic, Robin introduced a part of the series not previously explored and was fresh.

Robin was fresh because of the unique capabilities from which he came. I would say the reason he was chosen was because of an excellent combination of popularity, relevance, and unique set of abilities. I would also potentially throw in that he has lasting appeal, especially considering he's the most unique of this Fire Emblem peers on the roster.

As far as the Pokemon go, I do not disagree that Meowth and Eevee are popular. They always have been and surely always will be. But as far as a compelling moveset and design for a fighting game? There's where I feel Decidueye beats them. That's simply my opinion though.

You're suggestion that focus on importance comes at the expense of unique playstyles is a total non-sequitur.
My own roster, which focuses SOLELY on representation, and being as objective as I can manage about relative importace of various nintendo properties, includes such newcomers as Ridley, Dark Matter, Andy, Inkling, Karate Joe, Excitebiker, and Chibi-Robo. Clearly, they all would have very unique movesets. It also introduces such widely demanded and beloved characters as Toad, Ridley, King K. Rool, Impa, Inkling, Isaac, and Ray.

My point is, that if you focus on representation first, the other nice things follow from it naturally. But if you focus on other concerns, you get true All-Stars like Toad not being playable, or Wars, a series with nearly as many games and as long a history as Fire Emblem, get next to nothing while FE gets 6 characters.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Bowser Jr. is a unique character in Smash who makes great use of his Clown Car; he's got a multitude of gadgets, something very few other characters have, his playstyle has a lot of personality to it, and he has a unique mechanic where attacks aimed at the car deal less damage while attacks aimed at Jr. himself deal more damage.

There is literally no reason to change him whatsoever.

 

[Morbi]

Don't count your eggs too fast. Ganondorf also wasn't changed in Smash 4 at all when Zelda and Sheik split up. I expect absolutely NOTHING when it comes to this exact character.

I honestly do not expect it, I just recognize that the potential is there. I genuinely feel as though they would add Ganon, as in the monster, a second playable version of Ganondorf, before they would even consider reworking him. Which, again, is a huge shame as I also want Black Shadow. The common sense solution is RIGHT there.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I think it's just a homage if anything. Doesn't seem like any kind of speculation that it has any tie to Melee. Tbh I barely hear the resemblance

It might be the new theme song.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Dark Matter

I'm sorry?
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see almost anything other than BWD for a Kirby rep, but why Dark Matter? Wouldn't you want Gooey for the Dark Matter Trilogy, if only because Gooey can't usually fly and would be the ~2nd tongue user rather than the 50th sword user?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'm sorry?
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see almost anything other than BWD for a Kirby rep, but why Dark Matter? Wouldn't you want Gooey for the Dark Matter Trilogy, if only because Gooey can't usually fly and would be the ~2nd tongue user rather than the 50th sword user?

Don't you mean third?

 

[Zzuxon]

I'm sorry?
Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see almost anything other than BWD for a Kirby rep, but why Dark Matter? Wouldn't you want Gooey for the Dark Matter Trilogy, if only because Gooey can't usually fly and would be the ~2nd tongue user rather than the 50th sword user?

I chose Dark Matter for its longstanding influence over the Kirby series. Numerous final bosses have been connected to it in some way.
Also, it wouldn't be a swordsman. It would resemble its appearance in Kirby 64, acting as an amorphous miasma, forming itself into lashes, spikes etc. It could be compared to Shuma-Gorath in MVC3.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If Super Smash Bros for Nintendo Switch started early 2016, is it too early for Arms?

 

[Crap-Zapper]

Wait a minute! Hold up a moment...

People would like Bowser Jr to use the Paintbrush from Sunshine (and a couple spin-offs) instead of the clown kart?
What would he even do with a paintbrush? Hit people with it? Like a sword? AND THIS is coming from the same people complaining about Smash having too many sword fighters? Geezus. Having a giggle here, no hate, just really funny.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

So much discussion... Can't keep up...
Guess I'll just post my top 3 guesses for characters, stages, and special modes.

Characters: Young Link (Veteran), Dillon (Assist Trophy), Waluigi (Mii Costume)

Stages: Divine Beasts (Breath of the Wild), Arowana Mall (Splatoon), New Donk City (Super Mario Odyssey)

Modes: Adventure Mode (story-driven, like Brawl), Target Test (character-specific challenges), *[insert new wacky mode we've never seen before here]

We've had Master Mode, Crazy Mode, Smash Run & Tour as some of our new, wacky modes in Sm4sh. For this next Smash title, though, we might not get teased at any new modes until E3. My idea/wish for it, though?

An RPG mode that utilizes character/custom stats like Smash Run/Tour did. Maybe in the style of Fire Emblem.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

If Super Smash Bros for Nintendo Switch started early 2016, is it too early for Arms?

Hard to say; Sakurai most likely had insider info for ARMS while it and the Switch were in development, but at the same time we can't know that kind of information as of yet.

If ARMS doesn't make the initial roster I can easily see it getting in through updates/DLC.

 

[Zzuxon]

I think it would be good for Bowser Jr.'s u-tilt and f-tilt to use the paintbrush instead of the fork it uses currently. The Koopalings could use their wands instead.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

You're suggestion that focus on importance comes at the expense of unique playstyles is a total non-sequitur.
My own roster, which focuses SOLELY on representation, and being as objective as I can manage about relative importace of various nintendo properties, includes such newcomers as Ridley, Dark Matter, Andy, Inkling, Karate Joe, Excitebiker, and Chibi-Robo. Clearly, they all would have very unique movesets. It also introduces such widely demanded and beloved characters as Toad, Ridley, King K. Rool, Impa, Inkling, Isaac, and Ray.

My point is, that if you focus on representation first, the other nice things follow from it naturally. But if you focus on other concerns, you get true All-Stars like Toad not being playable, or Wars, a series with nearly as many games and as long a history as Fire Emblem, get next to nothing while FE gets 6 characters.

I'm 100% with Scoliosis Jones on this one. He couldn't have said it better. I don't think "representation" as fans like to say, necessarily comes first. There are plenty of well worthy characters that are overlooked because they don't bring anything new.

You can't just go "Fire Emblem has six characters and Donkey Kong has two. THAT'S NOT FAIR." It literally does not matter at all which universe has more characters.

You say the characters you mentioned are beloved, but I feel you overestimate that. You seem to take the amount of games a series has or the amount of SmashBoards users that support it as a measurement of these characters being "beloved".

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Don't you mean third?

The tilda was because I knew I was forgetting someone. Thank you for your correction.

I chose Dark Matter for its longstanding influence over the Kirby series. Numerous final bosses have been connected to it in some way.
Also, it wouldn't be a swordsman. It would resemble its appearance in Kirby 64, acting as an amorphous miasma, forming itself into lashes, spikes etc. It could be compared to Shuma-Gorath in MVC3.

It's been a while since I played that one, but I don't remember "Dark Matter" personally appearing in gameplay except to take over soon-to-be allies until it becomes Miracle Matter, at which point it's nothing like what you're talking about.
If you want a Shuma-Gorath-like character (and honestly I do too), Gooey is still better for that, because it's something he actually does with some of his copy abilities. With Dark Matter, you'd need to modify it first of all to not be a floating miasma, and then to be doing anything like that.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

You're suggestion that focus on importance comes at the expense of unique playstyles is a total non-sequitur.
My own roster, which focuses SOLELY on representation, and being as objective as I can manage about relative importace of various nintendo properties, includes such newcomers as Ridley, Dark Matter, Andy, Inkling, Karate Joe, Excitebiker, and Chibi-Robo. Clearly, they all would have very unique movesets. It also introduces such widely demanded and beloved characters as Toad, Ridley, King K. Rool, Impa, Inkling, Isaac, and Ray.

My point is, that if you focus on representation first, the other nice things follow from it naturally. But if you focus on other concerns, you get true All-Stars like Toad not being playable, or Wars, a series with nearly as many games and as long a history as Fire Emblem, get next to nothing while FE gets 6 characters.

I believe you may be missing my point.

This is a video game first and foremost. We already know from speculation and literally Sakurai himself that characters aren't simply chosen to represent their series. If that were the case, we probably would have already gotten characters like Toad, Ridley, Isaac, Andy, and others.

A few of the options you listed would likely be great in Smash. If you believe that i'm implying they wouldn't be, that's not it at all. My reasoning is, however, that if the game were merely based on a character existing and being a part of the series for a long time, then of course those characters would be in. However, Mario has now gotten Rosalina and Bowser Jr. in Smash Bros. Are those two necessarily more important than a character in since the beginning? If your answer is no, then there's a different reason for Toad not being in Smash Bros. by the 4th installment.

I also am not entirely of the opinion that Smash Bros. must have a character from every series that Nintendo has ever put out. Chibi-Robo wasn't, and never has been a huge seller. Based on Zip-Lash, which I tried and felt was poorly made from a design standpoint, it is clear that Chibi-Robo as a series is not catching on. There might be gameplay opportunities for Smash, yes, but the series is lacking in a number of other categories.

This can be seen similarly with a series like F-Zero. There haven't been any games in years, and the prime candidates have been cast as either sword-user without much of anything for unique ability (Goroh) and a new character to take Ganondorf's moveset and nothing more (Black Shadow). They may represent a series, but if they aren't going to be fun (because again, we play the game to have fun) then what's the point of adding them in?

Basically, every time a new Smash is announced, Toad becomes a "shoe-in". He's literally been the antithesis of that for every game. There's no denying he's been around long enough, but he was around a long time for Smash 4. He's still not in Smash. Therefore, there must be something he's missing in order to be a compelling inclusion.

That is my conclusion, anyway.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Wait a minute! Hold up a moment...

People would like Bowser Jr to use the Paintbrush from Sunshine (and a couple spin-offs) instead of the clown kart?
What would he even do with a paintbrush? Hit people with it? Like a sword? AND THIS is coming from the same people complaining about Smash having too many sword fighters? Geezus. Having a giggle here, no hate, just really funny.

I always pictured him using the paint brush to do the same kind of stuff he did with it in sunshine. Leaving a hazardous puddle of goo/graffiti on the ground that damages people who step on it, launching a kind of projectile with it, even summoning some of his mooks from Sunshine that were made out of the stuff to help him in battle. I understand that some of those suggestions sound similar to what he can already do with the Clown Car, but I do think it could function differently enough and still be fun. But, it doesn't matter to me now. I'm really pleased with what Jr. got in Smash 4.

And speaking for myself, I've never had any serious problems about the number of sword fighters we've had, as long as they play differently enough from one and other.

 

[Opossum]

It's also worth mentioning, but didn't someone bring up that Sakurai didn't even work on the Dark Matter Kirby games?

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Wait a minute! Hold up a moment...

People would like Bowser Jr to use the Paintbrush from Sunshine (and a couple spin-offs) instead of the clown kart?
What would he even do with a paintbrush? Hit people with it? Like a sword? AND THIS is coming from the same people complaining about Smash having too many sword fighters? Geezus. Having a giggle here, no hate, just really funny.

I don't think the paintbrush would really function like a sword. I want Jr. to keep his Clown Car, but I also think a paintbrush-using character (maybe Adeline from Kirby) would be unique, and not just another sword used.

For one, it would have a projectile aspect to it. The brush would do damage upon contact like a sword, but would also splatter out paint in front like a projectile dealing less damage. I'd assume multiple attacks would have this splatter effect too. I'm no expert when it comes to competitive Smash, but I guess this character would be unique in that it would be useful in both close-range and long-range situations, if that makes any sense.

Also, I can't help but feel that the way one wields a sword and the way one would wield an oversized paintbrush are just pretty different styles of fighting in general.

I don't want Inklings to pull a bunch of different weapon classes out of their bums for attacks, and want them to just focus on the Splattershot, but if you envision something like how the Inkbrush works in Splatoon, that'd be a pretty close image to what I'm imagining for a paintbrush fighter.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

So much discussion... Can't keep up...
Guess I'll just post my top 3 guesses for characters, stages, and special modes.

Characters: Young Link (Veteran), Dillon (Assist Trophy), Waluigi (Mii Costume)

Stages: Divine Beasts (Breath of the Wild), Arowana Mall (Splatoon), New Donk City (Super Mario Odyssey)

Modes: Adventure Mode (story-driven, like Brawl), Target Test (character-specific challenges), *[insert new wacky mode we've never seen before here]

We've had Master Mode, Crazy Mode, Smash Run & Tour as some of our new, wacky modes in Sm4sh. For this next Smash title, though, we might not get teased at any new modes until E3. My idea/wish for it, though?

An RPG mode that utilizes character/custom stats like Smash Run/Tour did. Maybe in the style of Fire Emblem.

...why Young Link?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

So much discussion... Can't keep up...
Guess I'll just post my top 3 guesses for characters, stages, and special modes.

Characters: Young Link (Veteran), Dillon (Assist Trophy), Waluigi (Mii Costume)

Stages: Divine Beasts (Breath of the Wild), Arowana Mall (Splatoon), New Donk City (Super Mario Odyssey)

Modes: Adventure Mode (story-driven, like Brawl), Target Test (character-specific challenges), *[insert new wacky mode we've never seen before here]

We've had Master Mode, Crazy Mode, Smash Run & Tour as some of our new, wacky modes in Sm4sh. For this next Smash title, though, we might not get teased at any new modes until E3. My idea/wish for it, though?

An RPG mode that utilizes character/custom stats like Smash Run/Tour did. Maybe in the style of Fire Emblem.

So...are we gonna have 494579 different Links at this point? Might as well break the tiers into two: regular tier and Link tier

 

[Opossum]

Honestly I adore how Bowser Jr. was implemented. Before he got in, I always wanted a mech user in Smash, be it Eggman, Porky, or someone else entirely. I also wanted Bowser Jr., and even thought he'd used the Clown Car for his recovery and use something like the Megaleg for his Final Smash to reference his machinery battles in the Galaxy games. Somehow I never put the two together, despite all that.

So when he used the Clown Car as a permanent mech, I was sold instantly. I just hope he gets significantly buffed this time.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

It's also worth mentioning, but didn't someone bring up that Sakurai didn't even work on the Dark Matter Kirby games?

That is correct. The "Dark Matter Trilogy" (Dreamland 2, Dreamland 3, and Crystal Shards) were developed by Shinichi Shimomura, who just kinda vanished off the face of the Earth after working on Nightmare in Dreamland. He might have just retired or might have died. All people really know is that he directed those three games and helped on a few others.

Sakurai didn't even direct that many mainline Kirby games. He only directed Dreamland, Adventure, Superstar, and Amazing Mirror. I've heard some people act like he directed every game until Amazing Mirror, and because of that Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, and Robobot are objectively worse, but that's just not true.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It's also worth mentioning, but didn't someone bring up that Sakurai didn't even work on the Dark Matter Kirby games?

This would.....sort of be news to me. When did he leave the series again?

Doing a quick search on that now. According to Wikipedia and the Kirby wiki, at least, he really didn't work on any of the games with Dark Matter's involvement. Not even Dreamland 2. He was Dedede's voice actor in the Crystal Shards, but that's it.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

It's also worth mentioning, but didn't someone bring up that Sakurai didn't even work on the Dark Matter Kirby games?

We were pretending that Sakurai is evaluating impartially and isn't focusing on his own work out of favoritism.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I really want Kamek to make it in. I'm aware he doesn't have a unique identity in Japan, but he's an iconic villain for me, so I'm crossing my fingers. Those glasses make him creepy.

I'd like to see him on his broom, kind of like Bowser Jr in his clown car, with an army of Toadies and a baby napping sack to grab people with.

 

[Opossum]

We were pretending that Sakurai is evaluating impartially and isn't focusing on his own work out of favoritism.

I know. I just figured it was a neat thing to bring up.

 

[GunGunW]

Every couple of hours when I visit this thread, or I chexk it the next day I wake up, there are 3-4 new pages. Then I start playing catch-up and you guys keep making pages which makes me do a double-take at the page numbers.

You guys move fast.

Just wait until we get a full on reveal trailer.

 

[Zzuxon]

I believe you may be missing my point.

This is a video game first and foremost. We already know from speculation and literally Sakurai himself that characters aren't simply chosen to represent their series. If that were the case, we probably would have already gotten characters like Toad, Ridley, Isaac, Andy, and others.

A few of the options you listed would likely be great in Smash. If you believe that i'm implying they wouldn't be, that's not it at all. My reasoning is, however, that if the game were merely based on a character existing and being a part of the series for a long time, then of course those characters would be in. However, Mario has now gotten Rosalina and Bowser Jr. in Smash Bros. Are those two necessarily more important than a character in since the beginning? If your answer is no, then there's a different reason for Toad not being in Smash Bros. by the 4th installment.

I also am not entirely of the opinion that Smash Bros. must have a character from every series that Nintendo has ever put out. Chibi-Robo wasn't, and never has been a huge seller. Based on Zip-Lash, which I tried and felt was poorly made from a design standpoint, it is clear that Chibi-Robo as a series is not catching on. There might be gameplay opportunities for Smash, yes, but the series is lacking in a number of other categories.

This can be seen similarly with a series like F-Zero. There haven't been any games in years, and the prime candidates have been cast as either sword-user without much of anything for unique ability (Goroh) and a new character to take Ganondorf's moveset and nothing more (Black Shadow). They may represent a series, but if they aren't going to fun (because again, we play the game to have fun) then what's the point of adding them in?

Basically, every time a new Smash is announced, Toad becomes a "shoe-in". He's literally been the antithesis of that for every game. There's no denying he's been around long enough, but he was around a long time for Smash 4. He's still not in Smash. Therefore, there must be something he's missing in order to be a compelling inclusion.

That is my conclusion, anyway.

Ah, I see. We were miscommunicating a bit. You're talking about smash in a predictive sense, I'm talking about it in a prescriptive sense. It is clear that Sakurai doesn't give a **** about importance, or representation, or All-Star quality (Which I would argue are central to Smash Bros as a concept). If he did care about these things, like you said, Highly deserving characters like Toad, Ridley, and K. Rool would already be in.

I'm saying that this means Sakurai is not in the proper headspace to be calling the shots of the smash series, and that he should either get in that headspace, or be replaced by someone who will.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I really want Kamek to make it in. I'm aware he doesn't have a unique identity in Japan, but he's an iconic villain for me, so I'm crossing my fingers. Those glasses make him creepy.

I'd like to see him on his broom, kind of like Bowser Jr in his clown car, with an army of Toadies and a baby napping sack to grab people with.

My way of seeing it is that Kamek does have his own identity among Magikoopas in Japan, it's just he has something similar to Yoshi and Toad that he shares his name with the rest of his species. It was likely a translation error when Kamek was named, well, Kamek in Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, and that stuck with him. This also explains why certain playable Magikoopas alternate between being called "Kamek" and "Magikoopa", Mario Party 9 being an example.

Just my two cents on the matter.

 

[Zzuxon]

The tilda was because I knew I was forgetting someone. Thank you for your correction.


It's been a while since I played that one, but I don't remember "Dark Matter" personally appearing in gameplay except to take over soon-to-be allies until it becomes Miracle Matter, at which point it's nothing like what you're talking about.
If you want a Shuma-Gorath-like character (and honestly I do too), Gooey is still better for that, because it's something he actually does with some of his copy abilities. With Dark Matter, you'd need to modify it first of all to not be a floating miasma, and then to be doing anything like that.

I still would stick with Dark Matter because of its longstanding influence on the series, but I would definitely be happy to see a playable Gooey as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Even though I'll never be big into the series after seeing a boy of The Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess and The Legend of Zelda, Breath of the Wild. I can appreciate the hard-work and dedication that goes into the series and lore of it all. The Legend of Zelda is awesome and dang Link 'a got some awesome costume options!

 

[MopedOfJustice]

That is correct. The "Dark Matter Trilogy" (Dreamland 2, Dreamland 3, and Crystal Shards) were developed by Shinichi Shimomura, who just kinda vanished off the face of the Earth after working on Nightmare in Dreamland. He might have just retired or might have died. All people really know is that he directed those three games and helped on a few others.

Sakurai didn't even direct that many mainline Kirby games. He only directed Dreamland, Adventure, Superstar, and Amazing Mirror. I've heard some people act like he directed every game until Amazing Mirror, and because of that Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, and Robobot are objectively worse, but that's just not true.

subtweet MopedOfJustice
Before he left the series, he created it in the first place and then made all the mainline titles but those three games, of which the first one is the prototype of the second, then even after he left the assets/mechanics/etc. used in NiDL/AA were reused for two more games, one of which was a remake of a game he made, before the jump to 3D which represented a continuoues decline in quality for the franchise until Star Allies, which is the first title that might be better than a previous one. The games directed by Sakurai and Shimomura are both meaningfully better than anything other than maybe Star Allies, which is still just a less-interesting cash-in on mechanics that each of them were responsible for (Helpers and power mixing, the latter being very poorly done compared to 64).

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Well, I could say to play or watch Super Mario Sunshine to get some examples.

Here are some I can think of: giant brown paintball for an attack that leave a paint trail which slows fighters (Inklings may get the slow feature); bonus points for anyone who thought of Kog'Maw's E from League of Legends, throwing paint on the ground to summon a crude Piranha Plant that stabs enemies, summoning a paint bird that drops paint droplings.

Shadow Mario could be alt- wait no, I got it. They can still do the Bowser Jr. with the Clown Car, but instead make Shadow Mario his own character with all of paintbrush attacks. I would actually like that now, and it goes hand in hand with Sunshine, gameplay-wise. In the final boss battle of that game, was when we first saw Bowser Jr. use machines (Bullet Bill cannon to be precise). Ever since then, contraptions have become his main form of attacks.

Now I see why moveset speculation is fun, but usually I gloss over it if it is too long.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Top 5 Newcomer hopes for me:

1. Rex & Pyra
2. Waluigi
3. Kamek
4. Ayumi Tachibana
5. Bomberman

I was gonna put Ninten at #1, but I can settle for him as a costume.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I think there could be an awful lot of potential with a Jr Paintbrush moveset. You just have to play Sunshine to see all of the things it can do. That being said, I don't think its reasonably possible without there being a Sunshine sequel. (pls Nintendo)

I am honestly fine with the clown car being Jr's thing, I am just solely bothered by the Koopaling skins. But that is entirely my own gripe and I'm certainly not trying to assert that I'm "right" and people who feel otherwise is "wrong".

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Sakurai didn't even direct that many mainline Kirby games. He only directed Dreamland, Adventure, Superstar, and Amazing Mirror.

Sakurai didn't even direct Amazing Mirror, he only had an advisory role.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

...why Young Link?

Personal preference. And as to which version? Any version of young Link that isn't Wind Waker Link.

So...are we gonna have 494579 different Links at this point? Might as well break the tiers into two: regular tier and Link tier

Oh come on, it's nowehere close to the 519738 Fire Emblen characters we've gotten. Plus, there has consistently only been ONE Adult version and ONE Child version of Link starting from Melee. BotW Link will be this Smash title's Adult version, but the Child version remains to be seen (hopefully it's a different Child Link this time). If Nintendo threw a third Link into the mix, I'd call it a waste of roster space.

 

[Deleted member]

If you guys had a choice for one Pokemon newcomer, who would it be?
For me, it would be Decidueye.

I want Mimikyu. I can get behind a cool lore and design.

Just because a few characters might end up getting cut doesn't mean we're getting farther away from a perfect roster or "starting over". We're still getting several exciting newcomers, and just by having more characters than Smash 4, this game is bound to have the superior roster.

More doesn't mean better. Smash does not need more characters, especially if it leads to balancing problems as bad if not worse than Brawl's.

The Year of Luigi ended several years ago. It's time for Mario to hog the spotlight once again.


But seriously, I'd be fine with Luigi being unlockable. I was never a fan of having everything unlocked from the beginning, and having an iconic character like Luigi hidden gives me more reasons to play all of the different Smash modes.

Not if you can simply just play multi-player matches enough to get the characters. Especially if it's a easy as Smash 3DS & Wii U was.

Someone on the last page said we'll see double digit newcomers if this is a true Smash 5, and while I agree, I feel like there aren't many "likely" characters this time around, just because we're running low on big names.

The only characters that I'm sort of "expecting" or wouldn't by at least mildly surprised by are
- Rex
- an ARMS rep
- Decidueye
- FE16 protagonist
- K. Rool (because he presumably did really well in the ballot) or Dixie

Beyond that, there are ones I'd be a little surprised by (ex: Bandana Dee, Toad), but certainly wouldn't be expecting.

And I really like that. There are many characters with a lot of moveset potential, but most are on the same tier of what seems "likely" (in this echochamber at least). Most of the newcomer reveals this time around will be surprises to me, at least, which I really like.

Kind of rambling, but does anyone else feel the same way.

I'd also add Ice Climber, Bomberman, and Wolf into a list of unsurprising additions. All of them have a lot going for them and not much against them. Having said that, I'm excited for who they may add that we don't see coming. Even an enhanced port is bound to give us at least a few surprises.

I adore ARMS. It's one of my favorite Switch games, I've actually put more hours into ARMS than Mario Odyssey.

I don't want an ARMS character in smash 5. ARMS is a very new series that hasn't demonstrated it's importance to nintendo. There are many longer-standing series that are yet to be represented with a character, Advanced Wars, Starfy, Golden Sun, Custom Robo, etc. If ARMS were to get a new character, it would just be trendy and gimmicky.

That said, I would not be surprised if ARMS got a character. If it does, it will be either Spring Man or Ribbon Girl. Based on the marketing, cover of the game, etc. it is clear that they are conceptualized as the main characters. Also, they have the least flashy/distinctive special abilities, so I could imagine one being a costume change for the other, so that both could be playable.

None of these franchise you mentioned are relevant and in fact, Starfy and Custom Robo were never important to Nintendo. ARMS is already a bigger franchise than all of them.

That is correct. The "Dark Matter Trilogy" (Dreamland 2, Dreamland 3, and Crystal Shards) were developed by Shinichi Shimomura, who just kinda vanished off the face of the Earth after working on Nightmare in Dreamland. He might have just retired or might have died. All people really know is that he directed those three games and helped on a few others.

Sakurai didn't even direct that many mainline Kirby games. He only directed Dreamland, Adventure, Superstar, and Amazing Mirror. I've heard some people act like he directed every game until Amazing Mirror, and because of that Return to Dreamland, Triple Deluxe, and Robobot are objectively worse, but that's just not true.

We know practically nothing about Shimomura. Dedicated Kirby fans have tried to track him down or get more information but came up with nothing. Either he's incredibly good with covering up his personal life or something bad happened to him. "Mysteriously disappeared" never gives me good vibes even when there's not a reason to suspect politics was involved.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Earlier, someone said that ARMS is not that big or something. As for Nintendo supporting ARMS, their Japan youtube channel has been doing plenty of livestreams over ARMS lifetime covering tournaments.

Since we have covered the Mario and Pokemon franchises having a-lot of rep's, why is Fire Emblem getting the shaft, when we are fine with the others? I know the reason, but still.