Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Sakurai: "The character must display personality in their game"
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/

Cross has literally no personality. Multiple choice options that don't allow for a personality and a bunch of stock voice lines that are never used for the story and are basically not releavant.

Elma on the other hand does. Not to mention she is the main character of the game basically. The one that's marketed, the only character relevant to the plot, etc. And Cross using every weapon in the game isn't happening. "Everything and the kitchen sinks" movesets don't flow well and don't really ever get used. See: Robin who only uses swords and magic. If we do get Cross it would be dagger+Assualt Rifle. Maybe the longsword. And that isn't particularly unique when Elma exists who actually manages to be more unique in this situation.

Villager didn't have personality but he got in over Tom Nook and K K Slider. Robin got in over Chrom. Lucas was a mute and got in over Kumatora. Hell Miis got in before Tomadachi or Miitopia came to the west.

Pretty sure thats not a rule as Sakurai has contradicted himself. And Elma was pretty forgetable. Hell most of the cast was forgettable other than that nopon. The games plot just didn't exist.

Once again, people taking the term "personality" way too literally.

 

[mario123007]

Gimmicks in a fighting game, when executed correctly, can be good. Others can be bad. This, for Smash, would without a doubt be executed poorly.

I disagree with that part saying Rex swapping blades will be executed poorly, we don't even know how will they make it work btw.. so leave it as wait and see for the better.

Regardless of how it is all developed, any models or movesets associated with Rex will take dev time. If Rex is put in with moves based on Pyra and then two other blades, that’s animations for at least 3 different models, as well as potential hitboxes, hurtboxes, taunts, and added visuals. That’s an immense amount of time to put into one character.

That... applies to any non clone new comers...so... not much of a point I guess? I do understand that Rex might take more time because of Blades, but then again, Monolithsoft has been working with Nintendo on Smash ever since Brawl, so I think they can leave the extra work to Monoltihsoft for Rex.

To be getting as many unique characters as titles? Yes, it is.

Fire Emblem got six.... so I don't have problem with Xenoblade getting more than 3 or even 4 character tbh.

I just hope we get someone from Xenoblade

Whether it's Rex or Elma I just want one of the two. They are both some of my most wanted at this point but it kind of sucks to feel like if Rex gets in then Elma is out. Like having to sacrifice one child for another. Elma in base and Rex as DLC would be great! . . .but i'm never that lucky. I walked into Smash Switch speculation expecting to get Inklings and nothing else since so many other wants were no-hopers. Now I see a chance that someone I really want may be a frontrunner! And if I don't get either i'll be a tad bummed.

Yes, just a new xenoblade character and I am happy... but still better for me and the series if it's Rex in my opinion, just saying...

This is a load of bull****.

XCX got good reviews. It got fan acclaim and it sold well for a Wii U title (And a JRPG besides).

Several people in the Xenoblade fanbase don't like it but guess what?

SEVERAL PEOPLE ALSO DON'T LIKE XENOBLADE CHRONICLES 2.

XCX having a negative reception is a load of crock, similar to ARMS being dead and Overwatch killing TF2.

It's a lie.

Yep, every Xenoblade game are well received...
But the truth is Swamp, XC2 is by far the the best selling Xenoblade game, and even the most popular in my opinion.
In my opinion, I like XC2 way more than XCX and XC.

And several people who don't like XC2?.... you mean those who just only look at the characters and not really bother playing them? lol half joking by the way, I do undertand some prefer XCX than XC2, but they need to give out good reason why, same for me who consider XC2 a better game than XC gameplay wise.

This is where I got that.

The "negative reaction" are
- story
- character designs

Story? Nuff said, XCX story is really not good compare to XC and XC2, but that's their direction on XCX, they focus more on gameplay than story... but... hey Monolithsoft, it is possible to focus on both, and glad they somewhat did it with XC2.
Whether you like anime or not, you got to admit XC2 character designs are way better than XCX... not same XCX looks terrible but they felt emotionless .... in my opinion...

 

[MrReyes96]

So i’m playing Mario Odyssey and thought about how great it’d be to have princess peach’s castle back but with Mario Odyssey aesthetics

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If Chrom couldn't get in because he would be "another plain-old sword-wielder" then there is no way in hell Alm is getting in.

 

[mario123007]

On the other hand, if you allow Rex to swap between Pyra and one other particular character I will not name for the sake of spoilers, the difference would be only partially visual because of the use of a similar weapon. Combining that with the affinity system makes way more sense than creating an exhausting amount of content for one character.

Weapons won'e be similar if you change to Great axe, Bitball or Cannon Blades....
Besides just the "link" you see on Blades and Drivers... I'm not sure how will affinity system puts into Smash...

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Those statements are specifically about changes and not the game as a whole.

This is like saying that Super Smash Bros Brawl had a negative reception because people hated tripping.

I didn't mean to say people didn't like the game. I was just saying that there negative reactions to aspects about it.

It's totally not like saying that.

 

[Senselessbreak]

That... applies to any non clone new comers...so... not much of a point I guess? I do understand that Rex might take more time because of Blades, but then again, Monolithsoft has been working with Nintendo on Smash ever since Brawl, so I think they can leave the extra work to Monoltihsoft for Rex.

Sakurai said he does a lot of research when selecting characters and asks companies whats new and fresh. Not only is MonolithSoft one of the biggest first party subsidiaries of Nintendo, they are codevelopers of Smash Bros and many other Nintendo games. Tetsuya Takahashi is also great friends with Sakurai. And a point I keep bring up is that XBC2 had perfect timing as it was very far along by the time (2 years of dev time using an existing engine) Sakurai started researching his roster.

On top of the fact Sakurai said XBC2 is one of his favorite games ever, I'm telling you its going to be Rex. And hes a high priority character as well.

 

[Bowserlick]

Pyra should be a Z-axis stationed teammate to Rex. When Rex Smashes, she smashes allowing her to catch characters along the Z-Axis (side-stepping and rolling), while also letting her blade smash Rex's blade for splashy effects.

Throwing an opponent over to Pyra allows cross stage combos. Awe-inspiring.

 

[Gumzilla]

I want to see a FE character without a sword. I don't know much about the series so the only one I know by name is Tharja who I recently did a little research on and I'd say she'd be a bit like Robin minus the sword and all magic. Also maybe a bit faster.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

specifically in response to the negative reaction to Xenoblade X.

I didn't mean to say people didn't like the game. I was just saying that there negative reactions to aspects about it.

If you didn't mean to say that, fine I guess, but it came off that way.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Pyra should be a Z-axis stationed teammate to Rex. When Rex Smashes, she smashes allowing her to catch characters along the Z-Axis (side-stepping and rolling), while also letting her blade smash Rex's blade for splashy effects.

There is only one weapon between blade and driver. Blades (usually) only get to use weapons when special attacks are performed which require charging up.

 

[mario123007]

Sakurai said he does a lot of research when selecting characters and asks companies whats new and fresh. Not only is MonolithSoft one of the biggest first party subsidiaries of Nintendo, they are codevelopers of Smash Bros and many other Nintendo games. Tetsuya Takahashi is also great friends with Sakurai. And a point I keep bring up is that XBC2 had perfect timing as it was very far along by the time (2 years of dev time using an existing engine) Sakurai started researching his roster.

On top of the fact Sakurai said XBC2 is one of his favorite games ever, I'm telling you its going to be Rex. And hes a high priority character as well.

I mean, well... People complain Sakurai adding too many Fire Emblem characters, but it was because Sakurai basically likes Fire Emblem games.

So with Sakurai enjoying Xenoblade Chronicles 2, although it shouldn't be consider as a guarantee but it has to mean something.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Just watch, after months of speculating and trying to break it down to a science we’ll have none of the roster right

It’s the same each time, people think they’ve got it all figured out, and then we’re lucky if anyone got HALF of the picks correct. Maybe Xenoblade gets nobody? Maybe Pokemon grabs another Gen 1? Maybe half of the roster is Third Parties? One of the things I love about Smash, is the roster choices aren’t always predictable

 

[N3ON]

I mean, well... People complain Sakurai adding too many Fire Emblem characters, but it was because Sakurai basically likes Fire Emblem games.

So with Sakurai enjoying Xenoblade Chronicles 2, although it shouldn't be consider as a guarantee but it has to mean something.

It really wasn't. If it was bias as people claim, it wouldn't have taken until the fourth game, third with FE characters, for it to kick in. Especially since last time Sakurai allegedly had a completely different set of biases which were totally absent this time. That's not how bias works.

It was the given addition (), ease of implementation (), very specific popularity (), and promotion (). Atypical and advantageous extenuating circumstances for the series, not something that should be used to construct or construe a pattern.

 

[Roberk]

I want to see a FE character without a sword. I don't know much about the series so the only one I know by name is Tharja who I recently did a little research on and I'd say she'd be a bit like Robin minus the sword and all magic. Also maybe a bit faster.

I don’t think Tharja would make it in, she’s not a lord and she’d be a third Awakening rep.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I wouldn't be surprised if a character that a lot of people saw as having unique potential gets disconfirmed with Sakurai explaining that he didn't include them, because he felt they wouldn't offer anything really unique.

 

[Senselessbreak]

I mean, well... People complain Sakurai adding too many Fire Emblem characters, but it was because Sakurai basically likes Fire Emblem games.

So with Sakurai enjoying Xenoblade Chronicles 2, although it shouldn't be consider as a guarantee but it has to mean something.

The Gematsu leaks during Smash 4 said Sakurai had to make changes to the roster and that he changes his mind all the time...however he never changed his mind on Shulk. For a newcomer from a new IP that was fairly unknown at the time to remain high priority means Sakurai has and will give XBC special treatment.

 

[EnthusedPanda]

This is completely off-topic, but it's a thought I've been having: does anyone else believe in the likelihood that most of the costumes tied to the character poll are likely to be among the newcomers we're receiving?

I forget if Geno's costume was related to the polls, but I want to include him in this. >_>

It's not my most reasoned theory, apart from the fact it just seems like a classic Sakurai fake-out. That and the assets for some of the costumes are just that damn good, too good not to be from a more "whole" source. (K. Rool...)

 

[Roberk]

It really wasn't. If it was bias as people claim, it wouldn't have taken until the fourth game, third with FE characters, for it to kick in. Especially since last time Sakurai allegedly had a completely different set of biases which were totally absent this time. That's not how bias works.

It was the given addition (), ease of implementation (), very specific popularity (), and promotion (). Atypical and advantageous extenuating circumstances for the series, not something that should be used to construct or construe a pattern.

While what you said breaks down the FE situation in Smash 4 perfectly, there’s no reason why Sakurai couldn’t have not played FE games until right before Smash 4 to develop a bias for them. He’s not some static being that is always the same throughout his life, he could’ve not had a bias for FE in the past but had it with 4 because he liked Awakening so much.

 

[mario123007]

It really wasn't. If it was bias as people claim, it wouldn't have taken until the fourth game, third with FE characters, for it to kick in. Especially since last time Sakurai allegedly had a completely different set of biases which were totally absent this time. That's not how bias works.

It was the given addition (), ease of implementation (), very specific popularity (), and promotion (). Atypical and advantageous extenuating circumstances for the series, not something that should be used to construct or construe a pattern.

That's why I said it's not a guarantee, but if you look at it that way... I think there is a bit of a pattern there.

With no newcomers confirmed besides just Inkling, I think we have to wait until the basic roster to come out and then see how will the roster evolved over time.

 

[N3ON]

The Gematsu leaks during Smash 4 said Sakurai had to make changes to the roster and that he changes his mind all the time...however he never changed his mind on Shulk. For a newcomer from a new IP that was fairly unknown at the time to remain high priority means Sakurai has and will give XBC special treatment.

Xenoblade never received special treatment. It was a small IP but it merited a character and it received a character. That's normal treatment.

While what you said breaks down the FE situation in Smash 4 perfectly, there’s no reason why Sakurai couldn’t have not played FE games until right before Smash 4 to develop a bias for them. He’s not some static being that is always the same throughout his life, he could’ve not had a bias for FE in the past but had it with 4 because he liked Awakening so much.

Sakurai's played FE since the NES, his favourite character comes from the first game. Moreover, it's ignoring literally everything he's said regarding the reasoning behind these inclusions, his stance on bias going back to like Melee, and the previous claims of bias which turned out to be equally unfounded... so I'm not ready to grasp that straw just yet.

 

[Deleted member]

New characters huh? Well if any get added I look forward to whoever it may be.

 

[N3ON]

That's why I said it's not a guarantee, but if you look at it that way... I think there is a bit of a pattern there.

With no newcomers confirmed besides just Inkling, I think we have to wait until the basic roster to come out and then see how will the roster evolved over time.

The only pattern is people picking the series with above-average representation and chalking it up to Sakurai bias.

 

[MrReyes96]

This is completely off-topic, but it's a thought I've been having: does anyone else believe in the likelihood that most of the costumes tied to the character poll are likely to be among the newcomers we're receiving?

I forget if Geno's costume was related to the polls, but I want to include him in this. >_>

It's not my most reasoned theory, apart from the fact it just seems like a classic Sakurai fake-out. That and the assets for some of the costumes are just that damn good, too good not to be from a more "whole" source. (K. Rool...)

Yes I’ve been saying this for a while
K. Rool, Viridi, Waluigi, Ashley, Isabelle, takamaru and toad are ones I think are likely

 

[Troykv]

I want to see a FE character without a sword. I don't know much about the series so the only one I know by name is Tharja who I recently did a little research on and I'd say she'd be a bit like Robin minus the sword and all magic. Also maybe a bit faster.

Well, I would help you to know more about FE Main Characters without swords.

Are you interested to know about them?

 

[mario123007]

The only pattern is people picking the series with above-average representation and chalking it up to Sakurai bias.

This why I am curious on which other games that Sakurai likes... I'm pretty sure there got to be besides just Fire Emblem and Xenoblade.

Xenoblade never received special treatment. It was a small IP but it merited a character and it received a character. That's normal treatment.

And Xenoblade somewhat deserves a spot since the series is well received. Not to mention Xenoblade is the youngest Nintendo IP that has a character in Smash Bros... until Inkling joins in...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t the Zelda team consult Monolith Soft XCX team about making open-world games?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Imagine how different things would be if Operation Rainfall didn't exist.

 

[Gumzilla]

Well, I would help you to know more about FE Main Characters without swords.

Are you interested to know about them?

Perhaps

 

[The Original Robot boy]

It really wasn't. If it was bias as people claim, it wouldn't have taken until the fourth game, third with FE characters, for it to kick in. Especially since last time Sakurai allegedly had a completely different set of biases which were totally absent this time. That's not how bias works.

It was the given addition (), ease of implementation (), very specific popularity (), and promotion (). Atypical and advantageous extenuating circumstances for the series, not something that should be used to construct or construe a pattern.

Well put I just hope in this smash we see a lot variety over quantity

 

[Senselessbreak]

Lets try something. Say Melee's adventure mode comes back, and it gets 15 stages this time around. What 15 stages and mechanics do you see/want them doing? Mario will be stage 1 by default, and Battlefield will be stage 14, and Final Destination will be stage 15. Stages can have multiple parts like in melee such as the Mushroom kingdom level being 1-1 and the Peaches Castle fight being 1-2

There can be branching paths, Brawl style Boss battles, etc. Bonus stages such as break the target and capture trophy stages don't count in the numbering. Expect the mode to last around 1 hour

I'll start:

1-1 Mushroom Kingdom level similar to Melee
1-2 Battle Vs Mario Bros and Peach
2-1 DKC Jungle level with barrels and mine cart sections
2-2A Battle with DK, Diddy and Dixie
2-2B Battle with K Rool
3-1 Zelda Maze from BotW with Guardians
3-2A Battle Link and Zelda
3-2B Boss battle with Ganon
4-1 Kid Icarus vertical stage similar to 1-1 in the original game.
4-2 Battle Pit, Palutena, or Dark Pit
5-1 Warioware minigame
6-1 Kirby Great Cave Offensive maze
6-2A Battle Kirby or Metaknight
6-2B Battle Dedede in his ring
7-1 Battle Samus
7-2 Escape
8-1 Ride Greatfox stage while dodging incoming fire from Arwings or Wolfens
8-2 Battle Fox, Falco, or Wolf
9-1 Fire Emblem Arena stage
10-1 Pokemon sidescrolling stage with occasional midlevel fights (Psuedo trainer battles)
10-2 Battle Pikachu
11-1 Splatoon platforming stage based on story mode
11-2 Battle Inklings
11-2B Boss Battle with DJ Octavio
12-1 Xenoblade platforming stage on moving titan
12-2 Battle Shulk or Rex
13-1 NES remix stage featuring fights and short platforming segments with Duckhunt, Ice Climbers, etc
14-1 Battlefield battle with Miis
14-2 Metal character battle
15-1 Master Hand/ Crazy Hand
15-2 Master Core
15-3 Tabuu

 

[Troykv]

Perhaps

There are 3 main characters in the Fire Emblem that aren't associated with Swords with basic presentations.

Hector, the bulky and reckless lord from Blazing Blade that likes to use Axes.

Ephraim, the reckless but clever, and a bit lucky lord from Sacred Stones, he is a user of Spears/Lances.

And Micaiah, the mysterious but also passionate and selfess main character from Radiant Dawn, she is a user of Magic Tomes and Staves (the latter is a more utility-based way of magic).

 

[Danpal65]

Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t the Zelda team consult Monolith Soft XCX team about making open-world games?

I believe it was Monolith Soft and the Zelda team helping each other out with bits and pieces for BotW and XC2 respectively.

 

[mario123007]

Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t the Zelda team consult Monolith Soft XCX team about making open-world games?

Why need to consult when the Monolithsoft team are co-working on Breath of the Wild? Lol

And also it was because of Breath of the Wild, only 40 in house developers were working on Xenoblade Chronicles 2.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Xenoblade never received special treatment. It was a small IP but it merited a character and it received a character. That's normal treatment.

Rhythm Heaven had sold far more copies at the time, had multiple titles and was Nintendo's largest unrepresented series at the time (next to Brain Age and Nintendogs), yet its character got cut while Shulk stayed. And characters from other highly requested and longer running series like Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Chibi Robo, Custom Robo, Dillon, etc were still beat out by Shulk who was 1 year old by the time of selection. Thats special treatment because Sakurai gave him a fast past due to him enjoying the game, and being buddies with Monolithsoft. When it came time to make cuts, Shulk was never an option.

 

[DarkShadow20]

This is completely off-topic, but it's a thought I've been having: does anyone else believe in the likelihood that most of the costumes tied to the character poll are likely to be among the newcomers we're receiving?

I forget if Geno's costume was related to the polls, but I want to include him in this. >_>

It's not my most reasoned theory, apart from the fact it just seems like a classic Sakurai fake-out. That and the assets for some of the costumes are just that damn good, too good not to be from a more "whole" source. (K. Rool...)

I'd like to see K Rool, Geno, and Black Knight get added.

 

[Gumzilla]

Ok here's a good wtf character: Buck Bumble!

 

[Senselessbreak]

Ok here's a good wtf character: Buck Bumble!

Never heard of this until now, but I've heard of the devs. Didn't know they made the original Starfox game. But in all reality a literal who 3rd party character from a game that sold 160k is something that just would never happen. Not to mention Ubisoft owns him and they have many other profitable characters to push.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I felt it made a lot of sense to add Shulk, because while there was technically only one entry in the Xenoblade series at the time the Xeno franchise was a very popular and long running one. There is also a good chance that Sakurai knew the Xenoblade series would continue.

 

[Opossum]

If Chrom couldn't get in because he would be "another plain-old sword-wielder" then there is no way in hell Alm is getting in.

That's pretty much what it comes down to. Yeah, Alm could be unique since he has a lot of detailed animations to draw from, but so did Chrom. Alm gains a bow after promotion to use as a secondary weapon...but Chrom got an additional weapon too (a lance).

Alm vs Celica is literally Chrom vs Robin all over again. Both sets are the co-leads of their games, but one offers a lot more obvious potential than the other, even if the other one can be made unique: Robin with his tomes and weapon durability, and Celica with Gaiden/SoV's Magic system of casting from her health.