Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Mega Bidoof]

What happened to Level-5 that I see people talking about? Did they shut down? I can’t find any recent articles about them.

 

[Gentlepanda]

Oh? Controversies with the new series?

less controversies, more apathy

removing layton from what's basically a layton game and making him a footnote in his daughter's backstory was a curious business decision to say the least

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

What happened to Level-5 that I see people talking about? Did they shut down? I can’t find any recent articles about them.

mass employee leave apparently

 

[Idon]

I guess they have to downscale to just level 1 now.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

you know what would help L5? Releasing all the main Professor Layton games in cronological order

• Professor Layton and the Last Specter
• Professor Layton and the Miracle Mask
• Professor Layton and the Azran Legacy
• Professor Layton and the Curious Village
• Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box
• Professor Layton and the Unwound Future
• Layton’s Mystery Journey: Katrielle and the Millionaires’ Conspiracy

All on switch

tho they did bring Layton’s Mystery Journey to switch and it didnt go so hot so maybe skip that one

 

[osby]

you know what would help L5? Relising all the main Professor Layton games in cronological order
All on switch

tho they did bring Layton’s Mystery Journey to switch and it didnt go so hot so maybe skip that one

It's not like bringing any game to Switch will magically make them sell like crazy, though.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

It's not like bringing any game to Switch will magically make them sell like crazy, though.

id buy them like crazy. I never got to play, two of those games. Azran is affordable but freaking specters flute is 64 bucks

 

[MBRedboy31]

I guess they have to downscale to just level 1 now.

They should go down to Level -1, it has that mysterious quality akin to World -1 in SMB, that’ll help get everyone’s attention right?

 

[---]

I don't know if I've ever heard of anyone playing for just the supports, especially when they're nothing like an actual dating sim. There's no dialogue choices, no branching routes, no gift systems or date settings, or...really, anything actually from a dating sim.

The characters talk to each other 3 times and then go "lol let's have babies".

The dating sim comparisons honestly confuse me.

Yeah most people over exaggerate, though it is hard to deny that supports have a slightly greater emphasis.* I think the bigger thing people look at is how they're written as a lot of them don't feel as organic as they did in previous games or don't world-build as strongly. Both Awakening & Fates, at least IMO, are jacks of all trades type games: in that the ambition behind them is so great that the individual pieces of the games don't shine as bright as they may have in previous entries.

*Awakening probably gets too much flack, as at the very least it ties into the story & mechanics. Fates...not so much...

Which is annoying because in the end modern FE isn't that different story-wise from older games. The old ones are just held on a nostalgia-driven pedestal while the new stuff is bad bad because the kiddos can join in too without having to reset their consoles every 2nd turn because of a dumb permadeath-inducing crit from some random enemy. And of course because there is a bigger focus on romance and whatnot.

I think that's simplifying things a bit too much; granted Birthright is basically FE3 Book 2.

Permadeath can be frustrating, but much of the foundation of the franchise is built upon that mechanic. Heck it's the signature line in the official opera song & first commercial. Just as I won't blame people for re-playing Ghosts 'n Goblins to get true ending, I won't blame people if they choose to play casual, however, I think some of the experience & charm that defines the series is lost. I will praise Echoes for taking inspiration from Tactics Ogre by letting you repeat actions within a limited range.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

from what I heard, didnt even the Japanese think that petting **** was weird?

I hope that’s the case

I don't know if I've ever heard of anyone playing for just the supports, especially when they're nothing like an actual dating sim. There's no dialogue choices, no branching routes, no gift systems or date settings, or...really, anything actually from a dating sim.

The characters talk to each other 3 times and then go "lol let's have babies".

The dating sim comparisons honestly confuse me.

The name is just a meme name given to the series due to Awakening making the men and women sexier (nothing compared to Lyn, it still)

Eh. Smash does many wonders, but saving a third party company is a bit out there.

It got people to like Konami for a while, so close enough

Perhaps not a company, but a series alone.

 

[Pokechu]

See, this is what convinces me that very few people who complain about FE actually play it.

There's like, four support convos for each character and that's it. The fact people seem to think FE is some kind of ultra animu, kawaii desu dating sim makes me feel very confused. Like, do people only watch the support convos and think that's the whole game?

Bolded simply isn't true. In Awakening and Fates each character usually has a lot of romantic supports. Especially in Fates where it really doesn't make sense. It cheapens the narrative because you can marry Corrin/Azura to their siblings and the justification for the children is really poor. "Okay, we got pregnant during the war... so we'll wait the nine months, then we're going to ditch our kids and send them out to an alternate dimension, where time goes by faster there, and then we'll pick them up again when they're grown!"

It's not a kawaii desu dating sim but it definitely has a large focus on the romance aspect even though its implementation is strange and awkward (remember the face rubbing? LOL) And because it just makes the story and world worse as a whole due to how it's so shoehorned, I don't blame people for calling FE a dating sim (even though it obviously isn't).

 

[ZephyrZ]

That's what it seems like, doesn't it?

I guess the option to romance characters makes people feel like they have something to prove all of a sudden. Like how manly or anti-weeb they are.

Which is annoying because in the end modern FE isn't that different story-wise from older games. The old ones are just held on a nostalgia-driven pedestal while the new stuff is bad bad because the kiddos can join in too without having to reset their consoles every 2nd turn because of a dumb permadeath-inducing crit from some random enemy. And of course because there is a bigger focus on romance and whatnot.

There are certain elitists in the community who aren't fair at all to modern FE, but while the old stories weren't all masterpieces they certainly weren't whatever the heck Fate's disaster of a story was supposed to be. I think this whole "waifu" stigma comes from the fact that IS has kind of been encouraging it in more recent games with swimsuit DLC and creepy face petting minigames, and the fact that a portion of the fanbase does treat FE like some dating sim where all they talk about is who their favorite waifu is. And yes while past FE games did have some fanservicey designs modern FE takes it a step further with characters like Tharja and Camilla who are clear "waifu bait" as you'd call it.

I personally enjoyed Fates for its own merits and thought the gameplay was fantastic (well outside of Revelations map design), but you're kidding if you think it's no different from the old FE games in the story department.

 

[Arcanir]

from what I heard, didnt even the Japanese think that petting **** was weird?

There was a vocal enough outcry against its inclusion that Sakurai commented on it in his Famitsu column, so it probably was a controversial feature over there as well.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think a lot of people focus too much on characters for “representation”.

There are so many good stage ideas from games not directly represented in the game that would absolutely awesome, with Fire Emblem being one of them.

I mean, the Unova Pokémon League stage is one of my favorites because it shows up something from a particular Pokémon entry that doesn’t have a playable character, and I think it’s totally fine. One I would really love to see though is one from Gen 3 that showcases Primal Groudon and/or Mega Rayquaza. Now THAT would be something.

Maybe do Sootopolis City or even Slateport. Either way, I think stage representation is underrated.

 

[Deleted member]

Bolded simply isn't true. In Awakening and Fates each character usually has a lot of romantic supports. Especially in Fates where it really doesn't make sense. It cheapens the narrative because you can marry Corrin/Azura to their siblings and the justification for the children is really poor. "Okay, we got pregnant during the war... so we'll wait the nine months, then we're going to ditch our kids and send them out to an alternate dimension, where time goes by faster there, and then we'll pick them up again when they're grown!"

It's not a kawaii desu dating sim but it definitely has a large focus on the romance aspect even though its implementation is strange and awkward (remember the face rubbing? LOL) And because it just makes the story and world worse as a whole due to how it's so shoehorned, I don't blame people for calling FE a dating sim (even though it obviously isn't).

No, there really is only four convos per character/option, and they're not anywhere close to as in-depth as something like, say, Persona with their character development. Heck, barely any of them have any romance in them at all outside of Rank S; a lot of them are casual discussions between characters, with a few world building things here and there (although Fates had considerably less of that).

The face petting mini game was entirely optional and was removed in western releases, plus it was not related to the plot at all.

The romantic parts of FE are there, yes, but they are by no means dominating. The core of the game is just as it has always been: A Strategy RPG.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

That's what it seems like, doesn't it?

I guess the option to romance characters makes people feel like they have something to prove all of a sudden. Like how manly or anti-weeb they are.

Which is annoying because in the end modern FE isn't that different story-wise from older games. The old ones are just held on a nostalgia-driven pedestal while the new stuff is bad bad because the kiddos can join in too without having to reset their consoles every 2nd turn because of a dumb permadeath-inducing crit from some random enemy. And of course because there is a bigger focus on romance and whatnot.

I didn't grow up with FE at all, I played my first game in the series in 2014, yet I prefer the older entries and their overall style to modern FE. Granted I'm nowhere near an expert on the series, and my opinion isn't really influenced by the whole romance thing, but brushing people's preferences off as just being nostalgia is just a cheap card for when you don't want to acknowledge that there might be actually logic behind why others have differing opinions to your own.

 

[Will]

Making baby units was a pretty smart idea though for Awakening's time travel shenanigans, but I don't know about Fates.

They must've given them Snake's "wow i age super fast" genes.

 

[Idon]

Making baby units was a pretty smart idea though for Awakening's time travel shenanigans, but I don't know about Fates.

Just shove em into the baby age up dimension.

No, this is extremely plot relevant, and not a way to shove in child units where they don't belong.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, kids shouldn't have been in Fates. At least, not in the way they were.

TBH Conquest is only my favorite FE because of map design, solid mechanics, and really cool classes. Story was definitely really bad, that I won't argue, but as I've stated before, I'm a gameplay first kinda guy. As long as the game is fun, I'll put up with a stupid story. The story only becomes a problem if that's why I'm playing the game, but since that wasn't the case with Fates, I enjoyed it as (IMO) a solid SRPG.

 

[Will]

Just shove em into the baby age up dimension.

No, this is extremely plot relevant, and not a way to shove in child units where they don't belong.

They were only made for this very specific war our protagonists are fighting, after all.

 

[REZERO]

I would say romance plays a part since depending on who you pair up your new characters stats can be good/okay. It really isn't as in-depth as Persona but you gotta remember this is several+ characters they have to write conversations for. Then with the DLC if any of the characters who were hot on the polls is in a 's' relationship you see another conversation.

It is a superficial dating sim with great combat.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, we on Fire Emblem again?

Well, in regards to the whole waifu drama, the ability to romance characters never bothered me. What did bother me was how boring I found most of the support conversations. I do find the whole situation funny though.

 

[Will]

Oh, we on Fire Emblem again?

Well, in regards to the whole waifu drama, the ability to romance characters never bothered me. What did bother me was how boring I found most of the support conversations. I do find it funny the whole situation funny though.

It was never really that deep though

why are you fighting with the enemy?!??!?!?!
i live here why do you think
but we're the good guys!?!?!?!
lol ok

and now we fetch the blue paint

 

[KingBroly]

Here's what'd help Level 5. Not putting all of their eggs into the Yokai Watch basket like they foolishly did.

From Software and Bethesda and all developers making the same game over and over again but in a different skin is also hurting them as well. People catch on, sooner or later.

 

[Deleted member]

It was never really that deep though

why are you fighting with the enemy?!??!?!?!
i live here why do you think
but we're the good guys!?!?!?!
lol ok

and now we fetch the blue paint

Fire Emblem was never good at story telling aside from Ike's games. They got lucky with Tellius.

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't grow up with FE at all, I played my first game in the series in 2014, yet I prefer the older entries and their overall style to modern FE. Granted I'm nowhere near an expert on the series, and my opinion isn't really influenced by the whole romance thing, but brushing people's preferences off as just being nostalgia is just a cheap card for when you don't want to acknowledge that there might be actually logic behind why others have differing opinions to your own.

Same can be applied to petty semantic arguments.

The general gist of my own opinion is that there shouldn't be elitism in a single-player driven franchise like Fire Emblem to begin with. People being judgmental towards others for having a preference outside of their own bubble are plentiful for no good reason within the Fire Emblem fandom, and it gets tiresome to be a part of.

It doesn't matter why people enjoy modern or old FE, because how people enjoy their games doesn't affect anyone else. It's when people attack others on a personal level for their preference, which for some reason started as soon as Awakening got popular, that I find the overall fanbase has a larger issue than if a petting minigame exists somewhere or not.

So the whole "I'm gonna say you're wrong because you used a word I can use in a strawman-like context" thing doesn't work. Sorry.

 

[Will]

Fire Emblem was never good at story telling aside from Ike's games. They got lucky with Tellius.

i liked marth's story in the first half, i love me a good ol viva la revolucion to get your kingdom back and then some

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm not a huge fan of romance storylines in general. Some fit and are acceptable, but the ones that are shoehorned just piss me off. And for me, it's like that with everything - I loved Civil War, but it would have been better if they left out Sharon because some exec decided that Cap has to have a girlfriend since it's unthinkable for a hero to be alone.

That's one of the main reasons why Mipha's by far my least favorite of the BotW champions, and why I think TP Zelda was one of the best in the series.

Now I've never played a Fire Emblem game, but there are other factors that tell me it's not really something I'd enjoy. I've never been a huge fan of JRPGs in the first place - Pokémon's about the most intense I usually play, and we had that whole debate a few days ago on how Pokémon is basically "JRPG-lite for babies."

See also: why I'd hope that the Smash DLC ends up being more than just "here's a bunch of JRPG characters" since I really don't know any of them.

 

[Pokechu]

No, there really is only four convos per character/option, and they're not anywhere close to as in-depth as something like, say, Persona with their character development. Heck, barely any of them have any romance in them at all outside of Rank S; a lot of them are casual discussions between characters, with a few world building things here and there (although Fates had considerably less of that).

The face petting mini game was entirely optional and was removed in western releases, plus it was not related to the plot at all.

The romantic parts of FE are there, yes, but they are by no means dominating. The core of the game is just as it has always been: A Strategy RPG.

There is much more than four conversations per character.

Camilla can S Support

Jakob
Silas
Kaze
Ryoma
Takumi
Laslow
Odin
Niles
Arthur
Keaton
Benny

That's eleven S-Supports. That's a lot, way more than four. They aren't very in-depth but it shows that there is a huge focus on romancing as the children all have a similar amount of S-Supports too.

Unless you meant C-B-A-S, which that is four, but multiplied by 11, is still forty-four, and that's just for one character.

 

[Deleted member]

i liked marth's story in the first half, i love me a good ol viva la revolucion to get your kingdom back and then some

Marth was the sole highlight of Shadow Dragon if you ask me. He was a surprisingly good lord.

 

[Will]

Same can be applied to petty semantic arguments.

The general gist of my own opinion is that there shouldn't be elitism in a single-player driven franchise like Fire Emblem to begin with. People being judgmental towards others for having a preference outside of their own bubble are plentiful for no good reason within the Fire Emblem fandom, and it gets tiresome to be a part of.

It doesn't matter why people enjoy modern or old FE, because how people enjoy their games doesn't affect anyone else. It's when people attack others on a personal level for their preference, which for some reason started as soon as Awakening got popular, that I find the overall fanbase has a larger issue than if a petting minigame exists somewhere or not.

So the whole "I'm gonna say you're wrong because you used a word I can use in a strawman-like context" thing doesn't work. Sorry.

i'll only ever **** on fates because man that was a mistake

at least the cutscenes are dope to look at

Now I've never played a Fire Emblem game, but there are other factors that tell me it's not really something I'd enjoy. I've never been a huge fan of JRPGs in the first place - Pokémon's about the most intense I usually play, and we had that whole debate a few days ago on how Pokémon is basically "JRPG-lite for babies."

it's actually called a TRPG

 

[Arcanir]

Fates' big problem to me is that it was too ambitious and also kind of tried too hard to please everyone. You can tell they were very ambitious with the game as it had three different gameplay styles meant to cater to everyone, a story that was supposed to be stronger then what came before it, expanding on what people liked in Awakening with the supports and romance elements, and a split route that was far unique by FE standards.

But in that ambition they ended up muddling a lot of what they wanted to do. They wanted to do a 'Blood vs. Bonds' thematic, but since they also wanted to have the same support system of marrying everyone you wanted that ended up with the siblings being able to be married and thus neutering that story element. They wanted the Kids back since people loved them in Awakening, but they forgot why it worked in Awakening and it ended up feeling completely shoehorned in. They wanted to cater to the romance element by adding things like Facerubbing and the Hot Springs, but it also alienated a number of fans as it felt too pandering and creepy. Also, most importantly, they wanted to have a three route system, but they spread themselves too thin and thus you had a story that was at its strongest considered mediocre and at its worst a complete mess (not to mention that the third route also harmed the other main thematic of two countries at war by adding a third faction that controlled everything).

Fates had a lot of ideas, but not many of them reach their proper potential or don't gel well with the game itself, so it ends up being a messier product then it was intended to be. I feel if they narrowed down their focus it would've been much stronger in the long run, but as is it's no surprise that it ended up being a controversial game in the series.

 

[Opossum]

Marth was the sole highlight of Shadow Dragon if you ask me. He was a surprisingly good lord.

Shadow Dragon has quite a few good characters though. Sure, Marth is the highlight and there are some actual Literal Who's like Tomas, Dolph, and Macellan, but folks like Caeda, Merric, Tiki, Julian, Lena, Ogma, Minerva, Nyna, and Camus are no slouches either.

 

[KarneraMythos]

Don't remind me about Shiki, if she had been in a Visual Novel first you can bet my *** I'd be supporting her right now :'^(

A lot of Type-Moon stuff lacks good 3D models as I'm pretty sure Extella is their only HD game lol
Add Mordred you cowards
if i could id mod mordred over roy and no one would be able to stop me

If Shiki was Type-Moon's video game mascot in this time-line, just imagine how gorgeous the visuals for her stage would be.

There's an updated Artoria model that looks a lot closer to Takeuchi's style. I know what I'm gonna do with that when the models are extracted. Hopefully, I won't have to deal with the stupid 2-slot voice limit that some characters had in Sm4sh.

Heh, funny. I would have placed her over Ike, main and all. I might go for her casual getup though, if her armor clips too much that is.

 

[Will]

Shadow Dragon has quite a few good characters though. Sure, Marth is the highlight and there are some actual Literal Who's like Tomas, Dolph, and Macellan, but folks like Caeda, Merric, Tiki, Julian, Lena, Ogma, Minerva, Nyna, and Camus are no slouches either.

and gordin, our lord and savior

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I'm not a huge fan of romance storylines in general. Some fit and are acceptable, but the ones that are shoehorned just piss me off. And for me, it's like that with everything - I loved Civil War, but it would have been better if they left out Sharon because some exec decided that Cap has to have a girlfriend since it's unthinkable for a hero to be alone.

That's one of the main reasons why Mipha's by far my least favorite of the BotW champions, and why I think TP Zelda was one of the best in the series.

Now I've never played a Fire Emblem game, but there are other factors that tell me it's not really something I'd enjoy. I've never been a huge fan of JRPGs in the first place - Pokémon's about the most intense I usually play, and we had that whole debate a few days ago on how Pokémon is basically "JRPG-lite for babies."

See also: why I'd hope that the Smash DLC ends up being more than just "here's a bunch of JRPG characters" since I really don't know any of them.

Sharon wasn’t a problem, only them rushing her relationship with Cap after Peggy died...now that was the problem. Could’ve developed that like they did with Wanda and Vision

 

[Deleted member]

There is much more than four conversations per character.

Camilla can S Support

Jakob
Silas
Kaze
Ryoma
Takumi
Laslow
Odin
Niles
Arthur
Keaton
Benny

That's eleven S-Supports. That's a lot, way more than four. They aren't very in-depth but it shows that there is a huge focus on romancing as the children all have a similar amount of S-Supports too.

Unless you meant C-B-A-S, which that is four, but multiplied by 11, is still forty-four, and that's just for one character.

I didn't say there weren't a lot of supports, what I was saying is that each character only gets 4 convos with a character in Fates, and that they are not all that romantic unless they're S Rank convos.

My point is that people over exaggerate the amount of focus FE gives to romance. It is there, but it is not the core like some say, which was all I was saying.

 

[The Prankster 16]

Tiki

 

[Opossum]

and gordin, our lord and savior

Forgot Cain on my list as well. Though with Gordin, while I love him, I think most of that comes from his portrayal in New Mystery. Same with Jeorge for me.

 

[Idon]

Alright you guys can duke it out with your FE opinions or whatever but just know this:

If you're the type of person who says "The only people that like/dislike something is because [x]" that's an overgeneralization
and that's stupid.

Stop it.