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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Noipoi

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Lifelight is really great.

Smash 3DS/Wii U's theme is good.

Brawl's theme is awesome.

Melee's theme is iconic.

64's theme is fun.
 

Pyr

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Also, more bias.


But 64 is the worst Smash, hands down.


Game feels jank as heck.
Barely any content due to it being the first game.
And my GOD the N64 controller is probably in my top 3 worst controllers of all time in regards to the Big 3 alongside the PS1 controller-pre Dualshock and The Duke from Microsoft.
I can think of one worse...

 

Shroob

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Melee is easily the worst Smash.
Eh, hard disagree.


I don't play Melee competitively at all, but I still find myself going back to the gamecube and just playing Melee for fun every soo often.


My own personal tier list is:



Have not played Ultimate but will probably put over Melee > Melee > 3DS/WiiU > Brawl > 64.
 

Noipoi

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64 is the worst Smash.

Not cuz it'd bad, but because the others are such vast improvements. It had such a good core concept that there was nowhere to go but up.

It's the worst simply because it was such a great foundation. And I imagine it's still fun to go back to for all you nostalgic 90s kids.
 

Icedragonadam

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So what I'm hearing right now is that some Insiders got in contact with a person who works at Atlus who said the Erdrick rumor with the Persona DLC pack details is spot on. Is that correct?
 

Shroob

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God what I'd pay for a Gamecube Mini.


It wouldn't even need to have Melee on it, I just think that despite the Gamecube's sales, it had some of Nintendo's best games on it.



Super Mario Sunshine
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Kart Double Dash
Pikmin 1+2
Animal Crossing
Metroid Prime 1+2
Pokemon Colliseum+XD
The Wind Waker

Just off of the top of my head; the Gamecube had such a good library of 1st party titles.



So what I'm hearing right now is that some Insiders got in contact with a person who works at Atlus who said the Erdrick rumor with the Persona DLC pack details is spot on. Is that correct?
Big X to doubt here.
 
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Noipoi

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God what I'd pay for a Gamecube Mini.


It wouldn't even need to have Melee on it, I just think that despite the Gamecube's sales, it had some of Nintendo's best games on it.



Super Mario Sunshine
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Kart Double Dash
Pikmin 1+2
Animal Crossing
Metroid Prime 1+2
Pokemon Colliseum+XD
The Wind Waker

Just off of the top of my head; the Gamecube had such a good library of 1st party titles.
I'm still kinda miffed that I was born the exact year the Gamecube released.
While all these cool games were coming out I was in diapers.
 

Shroob

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I'm still kinda miffed that I was born the exact year the Gamecube released.
While all these cool games were coming out I was in diapers.
When Noipoi was bab, I was playing Gamecube games with my 3rd party 144 pixel attachment screen.
 
D

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Oh hey main theme discussion. Melee's theme and Ultimate's theme/Lifelight are the best ones. 64's theme is a step below those, and Brawl's theme is a step below 64's.
Smash 4's theme is just straight garbage.
 

Yoshisaurus Rex

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I'm still kinda miffed that I was born the exact year the Gamecube released.
While all these cool games were coming out I was in diapers.
Eh, don’t feel bad. I missed out on the GameCube experience myself because my family didn’t have the money at the time. Fortunately, I had a Nintendo 64 and a good library of games to make up for it.
 

Shroob

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I'm still miffed Nintendo never went back and HD-ified Sunshine when they did it to Windwaker.


Vinny already proved how ****ing gorgeous Sunshine would look with a fan-made HD Textures pack.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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I really don't like it.


Brawl tries to be this big, grand experience over its predecessors, and maybe at the time it was, but now besides SSE, it just falls flat on its face in almost every regard. Having this incredibly over the top and grand themesong doesn't sell it to me like it did back then.
It's ok to be wrong every once in a while.
 
D

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Frankly, I find people use Brawl as a punching bag at this point way more then is probably necessary at this point. Only recently has some of it shifted due to Smash Wii U have some lackluster elements to compare it to.
If anything, people who say that Smash For's Wii U counterpart is the worst Smash game, they'd be right, cause it is.

I have never seen more lackluster single-player content in my entire life, but Smash Wii U definitely was that. The stage selection was god awful, not to mention Smash Tour because Smash Tour... I've went on long enough about Smash Wii U, but the two good things that were good about it were the roster and DLC cycle.

In fact, I'd say the DLC almost saved Smash Wii U in ways. But for a fact, 64 and Brawl are definitely not worse than Wii U. Brawl honestly was the best Smash game before Ultimate. Now? Ultimate hands down best one.
 

Roberk

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Gamecube Mini >>>>> 64 Mini
>Melee
>Path of Radiance
>Double Dash
>Sunshine
>Third Parties, etc

The 64 has absolute classics like SM64 and OoT, but they are easy to find and play. Gamecube is right in the middle of too recent to get remasters/ports but games go for hundreds on Ebay. It also has an overall superior library imo.
 

Arcanir

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I gotta say, I love how Leffen says that "guys, I'm not saying this stuff because I hate Ultimate, quite the opposite" when it comes to first impressions of Ultimate. If history speaks itself, I am certain that him, Mang0 and most Melee players are gonna just drop this after the second month.

I might have to bring out the one time AngriestPat's CRAZY TALK stand worked for the better. :dazwa:
I'm assuming you're talking about his new video about the five things he hates about Ultimate? Because from what I've read the points he brings up about the game (such as the input lag, poor patch notes, and online) are legitimate points that people have brought up against the game, and dismissing them as 'lol, it's not Melee' is quite frankly doing a disservice to the thoughts he did put into his criticisms.
 
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NonSpecificGuy

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If we're talking about bias reasons for least favorite Smash game the winner has to go to Smash 4. That game is SO lacking in anything to do.

Yeah, I can jump online and play a few games but Master Orders and Crazy Orders was pretty lazy. Events felt like a retread of Brawl's and Melee's and those were done more concise and better. Smash Run was ok. Not good by any means though. It had potential but it fell flat. Smash Tour suuuuucked. Like bad. Classic mode ****ing blew as well. Like how do you **** up Classic? 3DS's was ok but the Wii U's was a **** fire. Then there's the cutting of Snake, Wolf, Lucas, and Ice Climbers which just broke my damn heart. So bad. If it hadn't been for DLC giving us some damn banger characters (Roy, Mewtwo, Lucas, Ryu, Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta) I would've hated that game. Which sucks because Little Mac was a big reason I got into speculation. That made my ****ing day. And before that Mega Man?! Amazing. Pac-Man? Cool. Like the game had some good newcomers. Everything else, including the cuts, and the weird speed of the game which I still dont like to this day, just made me dislike the game.

I felt like when I was playing there was always something missing. That pretty much sums up my feelings on For. It felt incomplete.

Brawl did some stuff wrong. It did. The speed, the random tripping, Mewtwo being cut, and arguably the art style but I feel like it absolutely ****ing nailed everything else. Adventure. Nailed it. Classic. Perfect. Newcomers. ****ing Diddy, Wario, Dedede, Meta Knight, Wolf, Lucas, Sonic, and Snake just to name a few is ****ing Legendary. Modes. Target Test, Stage Builder, Boss Battles, All-star, Subspace, Homerun Contest, Multi-man Brawl, Classic. Brawl felt like a step up from Melee in every category except for competitive play but even then Brawl's scene lasted for a damn long time.

If it weren't for Ultimate being almost perfect, would've loved trophies and some platforming in my adventure mode though, Brawl would still be my favorite by far. The only reason Melee has a higher pedigree than Brawl is because of the changes to the games speed... and tripping.
 
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Shroob

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Don't kill me, but, I actually don't like Subspace outside of the cutscenes.

I see soo many people remiss that WoL doesn't have any platforming, when back when Brawl was still the newest game, people complained about having to platform through "Uninspired" landscapes and how it was such a "Step down" from Melee's adventure mode.


And don't get me started on how much salt The Great Maze caused.
 
D

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I'm assuming you're talking about his new video about the five things he hates about Ultimate? Because from what I've read the points he brings up about the game (such as the input lag, poor patch notes, and online) are legitimate points that people have brought up against the game, and dismissing them as 'lol, it's not Melee' is quite frankly doing a disservice to the thoughts he did put into his criticisms.
I did, and here are my biggest problems.
  • "Half Baked New Mechanics" - Half-baked? You mean the mechanics that were practically trying to replicate the same unintentional bugs that were in Melee that can't be replicated? Not to mention, "There's like a dozen different minor things listed here, so I'm not going to go over the reasoning for all of them." Then why not go over them if you wanna make an argument and actually make your ****ing case then? We have a stage hazard toggle, but for some reason that still isn't good enough? It really does boggle my mind and almost directs us back to AngriestPat's point about competitive players.
  • "Ledge Trumping and Recoveries/Edgeguarding" - "Due to the mechanics of the game, your ability to edgeguard varies wildly based on both you and your opponent's characters." Oh, so that means that you actually have to play the ****ing game and abide by non-bugged mechanics like the rest of us? I've seen it happen with so many Smash For players, where they try and learn all the new mechanics and recoveries, that one specifically, and then they just quit. A big example was either Bear or HugS ragequitting from Twitter. If you've spent so many years in the lab, and this somehow magically wasn't a problem back in Smash For, then this shouldn't be a problem for you. How come I haven't seen ZeRo get on this, or others?
  • "The Controls" - "Buffer and input lag combined with the game engine makes the game feel bad in certain circumstances. These factors are sometimes acceptable by themselves (the input lag isn't too terrible by itself), but they combine together to make movement and controlling your character feel really weird." Then why don't you explain those certain circumstances and help guide Nintendo and the development team? Don't give out this vague statement without pulling someone else's receipts or none at all. I know that there's buffer and input lag, but didn't we have this exact same problem when Smash For came out and nobody really ever made a big fuss about that when Sakurai and the development team tried to make that game more competitive leaning? It just seems like we're cycling through history. I'm not saying this is just another excuse or anything, but I feel that when you say that "there is bad input lag but these factors are acceptable by themselves", it doesn't make things clear.
Other than that, I feel as if these are problems that can be handled with patches, but unfortunately I don't really trust the competitive Smash community to try and direct any message to Nintendo and Sakurai that isn't the wrong message and the patch comes out, Smash players complain, and then we're all back to square one. And you know what? That exact same ****ing thing happened when the most latest patch came out to where Nintendo has been fixing the netcode and matchmaking, but then everyone shifted that focus to "what you need to put in patch notes".

I can somewhat agree with him about online, though not the parts about the netcode and matchmaking, like I said before.

Or maybe I'm just too invested into this and should really put my time elsewhere. I dunno. Melee players deserve to play Omikron: The Nomad Soul anyways. :dazwa:
 

link2702

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So I’ve come to realize people really really really seem to hate facing snake in ultimate.....

Side note; im glad at least some of the grenade shenanigans he had in brawl are still possible, though it does suck that he can no longer cancel the momentum of the first one by shield dropping a second, or cause it to drop from an opponent’s hands.
 
D

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So I can condone feeling sad about certain character omissions in Smash Ultimate. I'm still sad and vouching for characters like Rex and Geno.

However, I don't condone what I just saw: some random Shadow fanpage on Twitter literally putting Nintendo's customer service hotline and harassing Nintendo for Shadow as DLC.

Didn't we already have Sakurai, specifically tweeting out in English, say enough? You can still vouche for characters, even if they look bleak. But please don't do this. Because that makes you this right here.

now that's what I call....png
 
D

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So I’ve come to realize people really really really seem to hate facing snake in ultimate.....

Side note; im glad at least some of the grenade shenanigans he had in brawl are still possible, though it does suck that he can no longer cancel the momentum of the first one by shield dropping a second, or cause it to drop from an opponent’s hands.
The two fights I've had with Snake were pretty much me dealing with his stage control and shield pressure with grenades. He's really scary when your opponent knows him well, but fast characters and characters that can match his projectiles seem to give him issues.
 

Will

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So I can condone feeling sad about certain character omissions in Smash Ultimate. I'm still sad and vouching for characters like Rex and Geno.

However, I don't condone what I just saw: some random Shadow fanpage on Twitter literally putting Nintendo's customer service hotline and harassing Nintendo for Shadow as DLC.

Didn't we already have Sakurai, specifically tweeting out in English, say enough? You can still vouche for characters, even if they look bleak. But please don't do this. Because that makes you this right here.

View attachment 183777
And then Waluigi fans are redeemed because people now understand that literally ****ing any fanbase does this.

Or maybe they'll just put Shadow fans in the "special" boy zone.
 

SegaNintendoUbisoft

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World of Light question.

Anyone happen to know the total number of Spirits in The Light Realm?
I’ve gotten 376, and searched the world map very thoroughly, but I can’t find any guide that mentions how many Spirits are in the Light Realm specifically.
 

Shroob

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So I can condone feeling sad about certain character omissions in Smash Ultimate. I'm still sad and vouching for characters like Rex and Geno.

However, I don't condone what I just saw: some random Shadow fanpage on Twitter literally putting Nintendo's customer service hotline and harassing Nintendo for Shadow as DLC.

Didn't we already have Sakurai, specifically tweeting out in English, say enough? You can still vouche for characters, even if they look bleak. But please don't do this. Because that makes you this right here.

View attachment 183777
I subjected myself to read that ENTIRE TWEET CHAIN.


I had to stop once I saw someone with a username like "Shadow's Wife" telling him to shut the **** up while using a hentai game character as a reaction face.


My sides are in physical pain from laughter now, thanks Scott.
 
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Noipoi

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So I can condone feeling sad about certain character omissions in Smash Ultimate. I'm still sad and vouching for characters like Rex and Geno.

However, I don't condone what I just saw: some random Shadow fanpage on Twitter literally putting Nintendo's customer service hotline and harassing Nintendo for Shadow as DLC.

Didn't we already have Sakurai, specifically tweeting out in English, say enough? You can still vouche for characters, even if they look bleak. But please don't do this. Because that makes you this right here.

View attachment 183777
I'm gonna show this to anyone who tries to pull a "Waluigi fans are this! Ashley fans are that!"

Every fanbase has pricks, it's not character exclusive.

Or maybe they'll right it off as "edgy Shadow fans" or something.
 
D

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And then Waluigi fans are redeemed because people now understand that literally ****ing any fanbase does this.

Or maybe they'll just put Shadow fans in the "special" boy zone.
I don't think putting "Shadow" and "special boy zone" together will result to anything good.
 

Noipoi

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Good god, every time someone tells them to not harass customer service people they just post a smug gif or something.

What a jerk. Way to show off the terribly obsessive side of the fanbase, moron.

It's kinda hilarious though.
 
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Will

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I don't think putting "Shadow" and "special boy zone" together will result to anything good.
People have done it my people, and they'll do it to his people as well. Anything to prove that their character should get in first on the standard of good behavior or something.
 

Arcanir

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I did, and here are my biggest problems.
  • "Half Baked New Mechanics" - Half-baked? You mean the mechanics that were practically trying to replicate the same unintentional bugs that were in Melee that can't be replicated? Not to mention, "There's like a dozen different minor things listed here, so I'm not going to go over the reasoning for all of them." Then why not go over them if you wanna make an argument and actually make your ****ing case then? We have a stage hazard toggle, but for some reason that still isn't good enough? It really does boggle my mind and almost directs us back to AngriestPat's point about competitive players.
Considering you're basing your comment off of the statement, note that nothing about that statement lists anything in particular to Melee. In fact, the major point brought up was an issue exclusive to Ultimate: The lack of a hazard toggle on the stage selection. Unless I'm missing something from the video, there's no 'why isn't this like what it was in Melee?', it's critiquing a flaw that has been brought up multiple times about the game, and saying otherwise is being dismissive here.

  • "Ledge Trumping and Recoveries/Edgeguarding" - "Due to the mechanics of the game, your ability to edgeguard varies wildly based on both you and your opponent's characters." Oh, so that means that you actually have to play the ****ing game and abide by non-bugged mechanics like the rest of us? I've seen it happen with so many Smash For players, where they try and learn all the new mechanics and recoveries, that one specifically, and then they just quit. A big example was either Bear or HugS ragequitting from Twitter. If you've spent so many years in the lab, and this somehow magically wasn't a problem back in Smash For, then this shouldn't be a problem for you. How come I haven't seen ZeRo get on this, or others?
Again, you're kind of strawmanning the point to 'lol, it's not Melee' and then just taking the time to attack competitive players as a whole. He thinks it's an issue because it promotes certain characters with great edgeguarding tools over those with weaker ones and thus wants ledgehogging back so that characters without those tools will have a better fighting chance. Now I don't agree with that point and I feel that for Ultimate's engine it's better served to keep things as is, but it's not simply 'well Melee did it, so it's better'. He states something he doesn't like and tried to back it up, whether we agree or not at least he tried to explain himself instead of just writing it off like you're trying to say he did.

  • "The Controls" - "Buffer and input lag combined with the game engine makes the game feel bad in certain circumstances. These factors are sometimes acceptable by themselves (the input lag isn't too terrible by itself), but they combine together to make movement and controlling your character feel really weird." Then why don't you explain those certain circumstances and help guide Nintendo and the development team? Don't give out this vague statement without pulling someone else's receipts or none at all. I know that there's buffer and input lag, but didn't we have this exact same problem when Smash For came out and nobody really ever made a big fuss about that when Sakurai and the development team tried to make that game more competitive leaning? It just seems like we're cycling through history. I'm not saying this is just another excuse or anything, but I feel that when you say that "there is bad input lag but these factors are acceptable by themselves", it doesn't make things clear.
Which he probably explains in the video, so if you're curious you should probably listen to his points instead of just writing it off based off of a summary.

Other than that, I feel as if these are problems that can be handled with patches, but unfortunately I don't really trust the competitive Smash community to try and direct any message to Nintendo and Sakurai that isn't the wrong message and the patch comes out, Smash players complain, and then we're all back to square one.
I'm going to come back to the slight against competitive players later, but just because it may be fixed in patches doesn't mean it will nor that it should be ignored currently. It's an issue now, so why can't it be talked about now? It's better to voice discontent (in a rational manner of course) so that it catches Nintendo/Sakurai's attention and they make the changes then to roll over and accept whatever comes to you, if we did that then likely things like matchmaking wouldn't have been improved to begin with.

And you know what? That exact same ****ing thing happened when the most latest patch came out to where Nintendo has been fixing the netcode and matchmaking, but then everyone shifted that focus to "what you need to put in patch notes".
Which is an issue, so I don't see the problem here. It's something that isn't well handled (as we've seen good patch notes from games like Splatoon) so it can be pointed out as a problem. It's a good thing online was fixed, and there has been praise for that, but that doesn't mean Nintendo should get a pass for other issues with the game.

I can somewhat agree with him about online, though not the parts about the netcode and matchmaking, like I said before.

Or maybe I'm just too invested into this and should really put my time elsewhere. I dunno. Melee players deserve to play Omikron: The Nomad Soul anyways. :dazwa:
And this is my problem with your past few posts: You have done a lot of taking shots at the competitive community whenever you can and have honestly been very dismissive of their points regardless of whether they're good or not. I'm not going to pretend that the competitive community is all sunshine and rainbows either, I don't agree with how things went down with EVO 2018 and I disliked how some Melee players acted towards Smash 4 players, but that doesn't mean you get a pass to insult and berate them either. You can give credit where credit is due, and sometimes it's best to ignore things when you don't care for them, especially if you're not going to listen to what's being said and ignore the points brought up. This is especially since it's not like the rest of the Smash fanbase were any better in cases like the Grinch leak, which is by far one of (if not the most) toxic the fanbase has been.

Honestly, you probably should invest your time away from the competitive community because quite frankly you're not giving them a fair shake at all. You're being rather dismissive of them and just going about being insulting towards them. If you don't agree with how they do things, that's fine, it's not for everyone, but unless you have actual good reason to call them out be considerate of what's being said instead of making a strawman.
 
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Will

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Considering you're basing your comment off of the statement, note that nothing about that statement lists anything in particular to Melee. In fact, the major point brought up was an issue exclusive to Ultimate: The lack of a hazard toggle on the stage selection. Unless I'm missing something from the video, there's no 'why isn't this like what it was in Melee?', it's critiquing a flaw that has been brought up multiple times about the game, and saying otherwise is being dismissive here.

Again, you're kind of strawmanning the point to 'lol, it's not Melee' and then just taking the time to attack competitive players as a whole. He thinks it's an issue because it promotes certain characters with great edgeguarding tools over those with weaker ones and thus wants ledgehogging back so that characters without those tools will have a better fighting chance. Now I don't agree with that point and I feel that for Ultimate's engine it's better served to keep things as is, but it's not simply 'well Melee did it, so it's better'. He states something he doesn't like and tried to back it up, whether we agree or not at least he tried to explain himself instead of just writing it off like you're trying to say he did.
Which he probably explains in the video, so if you're curious you should probably listen to his points instead of just writing it off based off of a summary.
call me a barge n charge but what exactly is the point of the video
 

SonicMario

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Hey I just finished World of Light today. Though I noticed in the credits something that was kind of interesting. I saw ATLUS in companies credited. Is there ATLUS properties in the game already before Joker was announced? Or is it possible it was indeed added in real quick in either the day 1 patch and/or 1.2.0 now that it's known that Joker is eventually coming?
 

Shroob

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Why do we care if Meleefanbois like Ultimate or not?

The old guard will stick to Melee, and the Smash 4 kiddos will move to Ultimate.


Both can co-exist peacefully.
 

Sigran101

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And then Waluigi fans are redeemed because people now understand that literally ****ing any fanbase does this.

Or maybe they'll just put Shadow fans in the "special" boy zone.
I don't like Waluigi at all and that whole situation annoys me. It was literally like 2 people. I still see people **** on Waluigi fans over that. Get over it already people.
 
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