Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Double K]

It's going to happen more because he's such a literal who.

He's a shill pick as well despite his legacy if it's a ''GOTTA FORCE DRAGON QUEST ON AMERICA" situation. People aren't gonna respond well to that and will further meme him because of that.

If they wanted to actually show America ''Hey. Remember when you almost were interested in this series?" ''Here's Eight in Smash Brothers."

At least more people here KNOW him.

Dragon Warrior 3 was pretty popular on the GBC and NES

 

[Captain Shwampy]

It's going to happen more because he's such a literal who.

He's a shill pick as well despite his legacy if it's a ''GOTTA FORCE DRAGON QUEST ON AMERICA" situation. People aren't gonna respond well to that and will further meme him because of that.

If they wanted to actually show America ''Hey. Remember when you almost were interested in this series?" ''Here's Eight in Smash Brothers."

At least more people here KNOW him.

It doesnt matter

The fact that he has cameos in zelda and Final Fantasy and the villian of his series was in Captain N only tells me he has a stronger history with nintendo than any other square choice

Hes the right choice

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Dragon Warrior 3 was pretty popular on the GBC and NES

If it was so popular we wouldn't have a Dragon Quest series that has 90 percent of it's sales in Japan still. Sure a rename might have hurt it a bit, but I'd wager not that much if there were really dedicated mass amounts of American/Western fans.

But hey let's rewrite history shall we? The Dragon Quest series is a blip in the RPG radar everywhere in the world save Japan.

Which yes is sad considering how much of the formula the series is responsible for.

It just feels super unlikely for Smash unless it's a shill pick and that's just gross. We see how people respond to those.

Corrin was a shill pick as was Bayonetta. And they practically had to hid the fact Bayonetta was behind ''SHE WON THE BALLOT GUYS. LULZ."

 

[Shroob]

If it was so popular we wouldn't have a Dragon Quest series that has 90 percent of it's sales in Japan still. Sure a rename might have hurt it a bit, but I'd wager not that much if there were really dedicated mass amounts of American/Western fans.

But hey let's rewrite history shall we? The Dragon Quest series is a blip in the RPG radar everywhere in the world save Japan.

Which yes is sad considering how much of the formula the series is responsible for.

It just feels super unlikely for Smash unless it's a shill pick and that's just gross. We see how people respond to those.

Corrin was a shill pick as was Bayonetta. And they practically had to hid the fact Bayonetta was behind ''SHE WON THE BALLOT GUYS. LULZ."

American fans are going to complain regardless, it's like how Japan ******* about Ridley being Captain America.

You'll rarely get picks that please both sides of the pond unless you're

 

[Idon]

Wait, we seriously calling DQ a literal who series when it's the highest selling JRPG franchise second to only Final Fantasy that even when Japan-centric still hits a million+ copies in the West?

Yall are crazy, especially if you think Persona's bigger.

And believe me, I think I know a thing or two about literal who franchises.

Spoiler

 

[Tree Gelbman]

American fans are going to complain regardless, it's like how Japan ******* about Ridley being Captain America.

You'll rarely get picks that please both sides of the pond unless you're

Base game does not equal DLC my friend.

The rules are different. VASTLY so.

 

[Double K]

If it was so popular we wouldn't have a Dragon Quest series that has 90 percent of it's sales in Japan still. Sure a rename might have hurt it a bit, but I'd wager not that much if there were really dedicated mass amounts of American/Western fans.

But hey let's rewrite history shall we? The Dragon Quest series is a blip in the RPG radar everywhere in the world save Japan.

Which yes is sad considering how much of the formula the series is responsible for.

It just feels super unlikely for Smash unless it's a shill pick and that's just gross. We see how people respond to those.

Corrin was a shill pick as was Bayonetta. And they practically had to hid the fact Bayonetta was behind ''SHE WON THE BALLOT GUYS. LULZ."

What?

Very few games in the JRPG market sell even 1/3 of their Japanese sales overseas.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Wait, we seriously calling DQ a literal who series when it's the highest selling JRPG franchise second to only Final Fantasy?

Yall are crazy, especially if you think Persona's bigger.

And believe me, I think I know a thing or two about literal who franchises.

No we're calling it's CHARACTERS a who situation. Because in fact they are in a large chunk of the world.

The series has a name and people in America know it, but they're just not interested in it enough to know it's characters.

 

[Pyra]

if i have to read "literal who" one more time i'm bringing back the grinch leak again

almost as bad as "deserved"

 

[Tree Gelbman]

if i have to read "literal who" one more time i'm bringing back the grinch leak again

literal who.

 

[Shroob]

Base game does not equal DLC my friend.

The rules are different. VASTLY so.

>Rules


Oh boy, can't wait to see how Sakurai breaks another fan rule.

 

[Pyra]

literal who.

alright, everyone
take your "i totally expected that" shots

 

[Double K]

No we're calling it's CHARACTERS a who situation. Because in fact they are in a large chunk of the world.

The series has a name and people in America know it, but they're just not interested in it enough to know it's characters.

Aw man, you're right. Smash never puts in characters nobody outside of Japan has heard of.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

>Rules


Oh boy, can't wait to see how Sakurai breaks another fan rule.

It's not a fan rule to say DLC needs to be internationally recognized and liked. You can't expect to pick a Japan only pick or an American only pick in DLC.

Because it sells worldwide. Unlike the base game where you have more leeway to do as such because the game is gonna sell regardless.

Whereas DLC can flounder and not sell because of the characters you picked.

That's not a fan rule. That's just common sense on business practices.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Aw man, you're right. Smash never puts in characters nobody outside of Japan has heard of.

Again. All base game.

And at the time lol Captain Falcon still had a somewhat relevant series that Nintendo was making new installments of, so he's kind of a poor suggestion.

 

[Shroob]

It's not a fan rule to say DLC needs to be internationally recognized and liked. You can't expect to pick a Japan only pick or an American only pick in DLC.

Because it sells worldwide. Unlike the base game where you have more leeway to do as such because the game is gonna sell regardless.

Whereas DLC can flounder and not sell because of the characters you picked.

That's not a fan rule. That's just common sense on business practices.

That is all. I don't care if you consider it a 'shill pick', Corrin was barely a blip on the radar for America with Fates only being 6 months old in Japan, and it happened.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

That is all. I don't care if you consider it a 'shill pick', Corrin was barely a blip on the radar for America with Fates only being 6 months old in Japan, and it happened.

Corrin was still from a game that America knew was coming. Shill pick be damned, they still knew they were getting the game and Fire Emblem was a series doing well in America at that point.

Try again.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Either give Peach/Daisy a new Final Smash entirely or just leave it be. Honestly, in the last games it was pretty awful, so it being good in this one at least makes up for the fact that they didn't get a new one.

That's not how game balance works! You don't make someone OP in one game because they were UP in the previous game!

 

[Luigifan18]

Wait, we seriously calling DQ a literal who series when it's the highest selling JRPG franchise second to only Final Fantasy?

Yall are crazy, especially if you think Persona's bigger.

And believe me, I think I know a thing or two about literal who franchises.

Spoiler

View attachment 183094

Literally who is that?

 

[Shroob]

Corrin was still from a game that America knew was coming. Shill pick be damned, they still knew they were getting the game and Fire Emblem was a series doing well in America at that point.

Try again.

Except we got Dragon Quest 3.

 

[Idon]

Literally who is that?

Exactly.

It's Flynn from SMT4 on the 3DS.

 

[Double K]

Again. All base game.

And at the time lol Captain Falcon still had a somewhat relevant series that Nintendo was making new installments of, so he's kind of a poor suggestion.

Oh, right. Excuse me.



And F-Zero never actually showed Captain Falcon outside of obscure promotional comics, and his entire moveset comes from Tokusatsu shows.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Except we got Dragon Quest 3.

We got Dragon Quest 3 under a different title and no one really responded to it.

It's not about the fact that we got it with Dragon Quest. It's about the fact. America just does not give a **** and putting one of the characters in DLC is not gonna change that.

It's a flawed business design. Explain how is selling a character to America they don't know or care about, suddenly going to make them want to invest in the series? It's not.

It's a dangerous game because you get the chance of ''Well I don't know that character I'm not spending money on them."

That's why Eight is a better choice. They at least entertained the idea of Dragon Quest when it came to his game. And people might go ''Oh yeah! I vaguely remember that. "

The chances of DLC selling works better when the character is someone that illicits a mostly positive reaction.

Erdrick won't bring that if people don't recognize him.

 

[Idon]

I think saying that there's hard and fast rules regarding what can and can't get in realistically is a bit too close-minded, but at the same time ignoring the business sense to either pick a popular character or one that can be promote a future game, or in most cases, both, is gonna lead to many false hopes.

Like mine.

Oh, right. Excuse me.



And F-Zero never actually showed Captain Falcon outside of obscure promotional comics, and his entire moveset comes from Tokusatsu shows.

Ehhhh... to be fair though the circumstances for each of those characters is entirely different than the hypothetical "Japan-centric rep".

It's a flawed business design. Explain how is selling a character to America they don't know or care about, suddenly going to make them want to invest in the series? It's not.

Isn't Marth/Roy in Melee was what initially caused the surge of international interest for Fire Emblem though? It could be that SE is looking for a similar type of effect to happen to their second flagship franchise.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Oh, right. Excuse me.



And F-Zero never actually showed Captain Falcon outside of obscure promotional comics, and his entire moveset comes from Tokusatsu shows.

Bayonetta: Popular cult series at the time of her addition. Yes, a shill pick from Nintendo disguised as the ballot winner, but Bayonetta was a critically acclaimed and cult loved action game who had just gotten a sequel on a Nintendo system. Not a good example.

Explained Corrin already.

Roy was base game. Explained the differences in business practices between base game and DLC already. Nevermind the fact they literally almost cut Fire Emblem from Melee all together because they were afraid of the ''Literal who?" situation. Good thing they didn't I suppose else we probably wouldn't have a Fire Emblem anymore.

 

[Shroob]

We got Dragon Quest 3 under a different title and no one really responded to it.

It's not about the fact that we got it with Dragon Quest. It's about the fact. America just does not give a **** and putting one of the characters in DLC is not gonna change that.

It's a flawed business design. Explain how is selling a character to America they don't know or care about, suddenly going to make them want to invest in the series? It's not.

It's a dangerous game because you get the chance of ''Well I don't know that character I'm not spending money on them."

That's why Eight is a better choice. They at least entertained the idea of Dragon Quest when it came to his game. And people might go ''Oh yeah! I vaguely remember that. "

The chances of DLC selling works better when the character is someone that illicits a mostly positive reaction.

Erdrick won't bring that if people don't recognize him.

And like, that's your opinion, man.

I don't necessarily see 'why' it has to be this "OH MY GOD IT'S X" for America, considering Dragon Quests release in Japan is akin to a national holiday.


Because from where I'm sitting, if you consider Dragon Quest a blip on the radar for America, it literally makes no difference between Erdrick and 8 except it'll be a 'slightly' bigger blip.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

And like, that's your opinion, man.

I don't necessarily see 'why' it has to be this "OH MY GOD IT'S X" for America, considering Dragon Quests release in Japan is akin to a national holiday.


Because from where I'm sitting, if you consider Dragon Quest a blip on the radar for America, it literally makes no difference between Erdrick and 8 except it'll be a 'slightly' bigger blip.

It all comes down to what people recognize essentially. They'll recognize the name, but not the character. They'll respond more if they recognize the character.

Which is why I think more people would respond to Eight or Slime. You want to sell Dragon Quest through a forced DLC attempt? Give the world a mascot or face that they can easily identify with not just ''This guy is a National Holiday in Japan."

Because America/Europe, etc? They're not gonna care or know that. They're just gonna see some guy with a sword they have no connection to and it risks the chance of making them going ''Lame." because they wanted someone they actually give a damn about.

And that's all I'm saying with Eight/Slime types from Dragon Quest.

 

[Double K]

We got Dragon Quest 3 under a different title and no one really responded to it.

It's not about the fact that we got it with Dragon Quest. It's about the fact. America just does not give a **** and putting one of the characters in DLC is not gonna change that.

Hey, it worked for Bayonetta.

It's a flawed business design. Explain how is selling a character to America they don't know or care about, suddenly going to make them want to invest in the series? It's not.

Dragon Quest has been doing well in the west on the handheld market since the DS era and Builders was a pretty well-received spinoff, so try again.

It's a dangerous game because you get the chance of ''Well I don't know that character I'm not spending money on them."

That's why Eight is a better choice. They at least entertained the idea of Dragon Quest when it came to his game. And people might go ''Oh yeah! I vaguely remember that. "

Why do you pick like, one of the most obscure and least liked DQ protagonists as an example? Like, Eight is probably the least recognized of the big 5 protagonists. It's Erdrick > DQ4 > Luminary > Alef > Eight

People actually recognize Erdrick and DQ4's protagonists through osmosis. Alef is a bit of a stretch, but the original Dragon Warrior was one of the definitive NES RPGs, moreso than Final Fantasy in the west.

The chances of DLC selling works better when the character is someone that illicits a mostly positive reaction.

Erdrick won't bring that if people don't recognize him.

ecks ****ing dee

 

[vaanrose]

It's not a fan rule to say DLC needs to be internationally recognized and liked. You can't expect to pick a Japan only pick or an American only pick in DLC.

Because it sells worldwide. Unlike the base game where you have more leeway to do as such because the game is gonna sell regardless.

Whereas DLC can flounder and not sell because of the characters you picked.

That's not a fan rule. That's just common sense on business practices.

We got Dragon Quest 3 under a different title and no one really responded to it.

It's not about the fact that we got it with Dragon Quest. It's about the fact. America just does not give a **** and putting one of the characters in DLC is not gonna change that.

It's a flawed business design. Explain how is selling a character to America they don't know or care about, suddenly going to make them want to invest in the series? It's not.

It's a dangerous game because you get the chance of ''Well I don't know that character I'm not spending money on them."

That's why Eight is a better choice. They at least entertained the idea of Dragon Quest when it came to his game. And people might go ''Oh yeah! I vaguely remember that. "

The chances of DLC selling works better when the character is someone that illicits a mostly positive reaction.

Erdrick won't bring that if people don't recognize him.

Bayonetta 2 sold 0.85 million globally. Persona 5 sold 1.5 million globally. Dragon Quest XI sold 1.8 million on the 3DS and 1.7 million on the PS4 in Japan alone.

As far as business practices go, all that matters is numbers. Where those numbers come from is meaningless.

 

[The DanMan051]

Bayonetta 2 sold 0.85 million globally. Persona 5 sold 1.5 million globally. Dragon Quest XI sold 1.8 million on the 3DS and 1.7 million on the PS4 in Japan alone.

As far as business practices go, all that matters is numbers. Where those numbers come from is meaningless.

Actually, Persona 5 topped 2 million a year ago: https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/12/01/persona-5-tops-2-million-copies-sold-worldwide

Though I agree with your point fully; just firing that out.

 

[Double K]

Bayonetta: Popular cult series at the time of her addition. Yes, a shill pick from Nintendo disguised as the ballot winner, but Bayonetta was a critically acclaimed and cult loved action game who had just gotten a sequel on a Nintendo system. Not a good example.

Explained Corrin already.

Roy was base game. Explained the differences in business practices between base game and DLC already. Nevermind the fact they literally almost cut Fire Emblem from Melee all together because they were afraid of the ''Literal who?" situation. Good thing they didn't I suppose else we probably wouldn't have a Fire Emblem anymore.

Cult series = Thing I like
Literal who = Thing I don't like

Gotcha.

Corrin still is a literal who by your standards, and Roy was added as DLC for 4 in a game we still never got~

 

[Deleted member]

I would love to see Erdrick in Smash, tbh.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, Persona 5 topped 2 million a year ago: https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/12/01/persona-5-tops-2-million-copies-sold-worldwide

Though I agree with your point fully; just firing that out.

Now hold up chief, I thought Persona 5 reached 3 million by now? Because that right there is pretty unheard of for a JRPG nowadays. SNES Era levels.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Alright.

I give up. Neither of is going to budge.

I'm still in the ya'll are overselling Dragon Quest's chances in Smash.

And ya'll can hype up Erdrick all you want.

Neither of us is changing opinion.

Because I still stick to numbers will matter when most of the numbers come from ONE side of the globe. THAT is the problem. Not the amount of numbers.

Most of Dragon Quest's numbers will be from Japan. That's the issue.

 

[Shroob]

Cult series = Thing I like
Literal who = Thing I don't like

Gotcha.

Corrin still is a literal who by your standards, and Roy was added as DLC for 4 in a game we still never got~

Lucas too, don't forget.

 

[vaanrose]

Actually, Persona 5 topped 2 million a year ago: https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/12/01/persona-5-tops-2-million-copies-sold-worldwide

Though I agree with your point fully; just firing that out.

True, I neglected to include the PS3 version's sales. Honestly forgot they even released a PS3 version.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Cult series = Thing I like
Literal who = Thing I don't like

Gotcha.

Corrin still is a literal who by your standards, and Roy was added as DLC for 4 in a game we still never got~

Roy was a veteran by the time Smash 4 came around. He had a Smash Bros appeal. Gods sake Roy's Our Boy was a thing. Come on now.

And no it's not a ''Thing I like." and ''Thing I Don't Like" scenario, but you can believe that if you wish.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy was a veteran by the time Smash 4 came around. He had a Smash Bros appeal. Gods sake Roy's Our Boy was a thing. Come on now.

And no it's not a ''Thing I like." and ''Thing I Don't Like" scenario, but you can believe that if you wish.

Lucas is a thing too.

 

[PsySmasher]

Oh boy more DQ... discussion.

Alright guys I have a serious question to ask, why are people so confident in a DQ rep?

I know that the majority of people think that a Square rep is very likely to get in due to Vergeben's comments in the past...

But considering none of the major leakers mentioned Joker at all, including him, I figured more people would be more hesitant to take any leak as very likely, even Verg (despite his near flawless record for the base roster).

It could still happen, but I'm not exactly inclined to believe everything Vergeben says in this stage of the speculation game.

 

[Shroob]

Roy was a veteran by the time Smash 4 came around. He had a Smash Bros appeal. Gods sake Roy's Our Boy was a thing. Come on now.

And no it's not a ''Thing I like." and ''Thing I Don't Like" scenario, but you can believe that if you wish.

Okay, so he's a veteran.

People were already bemoaning the fact we had 4 Fire Emblem characters or "Fire Emblem Bias". By your own logic, Roy should have sold terribly due to America's fatigue with the series in Smash.