Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Hinata]

If they bring back the Pokemon Trainer, upgrade him. 3-in-1 character? Nah. 6-in-1 character or bust.

/s

 

[MrReyes96]

I mean the player character, the Pokemon Trainer.

With these guys as alts

But the concept of fighting with Pokémon as summons fits N better than any Pokémon trainer.

 

[Starcutter]

The concept of "literally playing as a pokemon trainer" is something I've wanted for a bit. Mostly for PM back when that was alive, but whatever. Official smash could work too.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I don't find a Pokemon Trainer completely out of the realm of possibility. His normals can still be punches and kicks and whatnot, but you could work Pokemon into all of his specials, as well as Smash attacks and maybe a few other places like a dash attack.

I will say, though, making a moveset like that is going to be pretty rough as far as making a character model goes, because there has to be a model for each Pokemon in the moveset. And also, it raises the "well what Pokemon do we use?" question, and that could be answered any number of ways, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be easy to answer.

 

[RandomAce]

My point was that they were both the only gen 7 Pokemon in the game. Not that they were of equal status in the game.

The point I was trying to make is that Mimikyu's list of credentials and appearances is larger and the only thing he brought up was that Decidueye was in Pokken Tournament.

So it's not much of a refutation is what I'm saying.

Aren’t the other first evoultion Gen 7 starters in there as well? I thought I saw Litten and Rowlet in the game as assists before.

Anyywayyy, IMO, I doubt either will get into Smash. Mimikyu although popular, isn’t really meant to be seen as a fighter, its more so supposed to be that cute Pokémon that impersonates Pikachu for attention. Decidueye on the other hand, is very fitting as a fighter and has a lot of moveset potential, buttt is only really seen in the main Pokémon games (and Pokken). No anime appearances (only 1 subtle one), no movie appearances, none of that. I’m expecting someone not many people expect.

The concept of "literally playing as a pokemon trainer" is something I've wanted for a bit. Mostly for PM back when that was alive, but whatever. Official smash could work too.

I’ve never really been a fond of the Pokémon trainer. I usually only played the Pokémon trainer for one specific pokemon but that’s it. Usually most people would rather play as their favorite Pokémon than have it be shoe horned in a single moveset.

 

[StormC]

I honestly doubt the anime will factor into the Pokemon chosen for Smash unless TPC said "we suggest this Pokemon and we plan to put them in the anime." The roster was probably decided before the anime even started airing.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Decidueye is more in line with what Sakurai looks for in a Pokemon fighter than Mimikyu is.

And what is that exactly?

I honestly doubt the anime will factor into the Pokemon chosen for Smash unless TPC said "we suggest this Pokemon and we plan to put them in the anime." The roster was probably decided before the anime even started airing.

Are you saying there weren't plans for the anime until the anime aired? It only took until episode three for Mimikyu to appear. I'm pretty sure if the roster was decided before the anime, Decidueye would have appeared in it MUCH sooner.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I honestly doubt the anime will factor into the Pokemon chosen for Smash unless TPC said "we suggest this Pokemon and we plan to put them in the anime." The roster was probably decided before the anime even started airing.

In an interview, Sakurai did say that he asks what Pokemon are going to be prominent and appear in movies and the like, so the anime is likely taken into consideration. And it's not like they draw up the anime over night, the anime gets planned for a long time and then put into production. Gamefreak/Pokemon Company surely know long ahead of time what is going on in the anime.

 

[Deleted member]

My own personal pick for Pokemon would be bringing back the Trainer but as a summon fighter. Have him in the fray throwing out Pokemon for single attacks

So basically how Yugi worked Jump Ultimate Stars? Because that's the same concept, only using Pokémon instead of Duel Monster Cards.

 

[Deleted member]

Seems like a bad idea to assume Decidueye as the newcomer because he's a starter and the last newcomer was a starter.

I know I'm a Mimikyu fanboy, but when it comes to a character with popularity, unique traits, and move set potential, Decidueye falls short in comparison to Mimikyu.

As someone who speaks from experience, never refer to yourself as a fanboy. Anytime you do this, you lose credibility meaning that people will not take your opinions seriously. Fanboys and fan girls have negative connotations for a reason.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

As someone who speaks from experience, never refer to yourself as a fanboy. Anytime you do this, you lose credibility meaning that people will not take your opinions seriously. Fanboys and fan girls have negative connotations for a reason.

It was self deprecating humor. There's nothing I despise more and nothing that ruins things more than fanboys.

 

[N3ON]

Honestly I don't think it's even as much the anime dictating Smash decisions as GF/TPC just deciding which Pokemon they want to push and then doing that through all the means at their disposal. The anime, Smash, merch, other spin-offs, etc. Sometimes even in the core games.

As someone who speaks from experience, never refer to yourself as a fanboy. Anytime you do this, you lose credibility meaning that people will not take your opinions seriously. Fanboys and fan girls have negative connotations for a reason.

Quit going on about Victini, will ya. xD

 

[StormC]

And what is that exactly?

Pokemon that look like they would make sense as fighters. Charizard, Greninja, Mewtwo, Lucario, even Pikachu and Squirtle. Ivysaur and Jigglypuff are the odd ones out.

Are you saying there weren't plans for the anime until the anime aired? It only took until episode three for Mimikyu to appear. I'm pretty sure if the roster was decided before the anime, Decidueye would have appeared in it MUCH sooner.

I didn't say anything about Mimikyu in that post.

In an interview, Sakurai did say that he asks what Pokemon are going to be prominent and appear in movies and the like, so the anime is likely taken into consideration. And it's not like they draw up the anime over night, the anime gets planned for a long time and then put into production. Gamefreak/Pokemon Company surely know long ahead of time what is going on in the anime.

It depends largely on timeline and how TPC plans out the anime. If this roster was decided by May 2016 or so, it's probably a Greninja situation where the anime was unrelated to Sakurai's choice. If it's later, I could see TPC suggesting someone for anime reasons. (Also, anime has an infamously short turnaround for production, it's not like western animation where a single episode takes the longer part of a year.)

 

[RandomAce]

I suppose that anything like Anime or the movies don’t really dictate who will get in.

But seeing how Decidueye doesn’t really have anything like that id glaring since we’re now two years into this generation and Decidueye only makes an appearance as a Pokémon of another trainer. It’s starting to send red flags if TPC is even willing to push this Pokémon. Not to mention they didn’t even use the Pokémon that much when they were marketing the game beside it being a starter compared to Rowlet.

 

[RADSheikah]

Alright it took me a hot minute to think of but I got an idea for a Rowlet moveset, mostly ideas for moves without too much technical info, just basic ideas. I had the idea to make it after seeing all the debate about having Rowlet as a "cute Gen 7 Pokemon"

Spoiler: Rowlet moveset

Size and speed: Rowlet would be about 80% the size of Pikachu making him the smallest fighter in the game. In turn he would be one of the faster Pokemon. His walk would be his waddle found in the data of S&M. His run would be him flying forward flapping his wings. Again like the animation hidden in S&M. Rowlet would have 5 jumps like Kirby and each jump would gradually get smaller until he reached his max. He would also be on the lighter side of the roster, being lighter than Rosalina but heavier than Mewtwo (based on SSB4 weights)

Jab/Jab Combo: Peck: For this move Rowlet would repeatedly jab it's beck forward for as long as you mashed/held the jab button. This move would have little lag and little damage.

F-Tilt: Astonish: For this Move Rowlet would spring his body forward while still keeping his feet planted on the ground. This move would have little lag, damage and knockback but would have a moderate amount of stun if landed.

Dash Attack: Tackle: In this move Rowlet charges forward and tackles the opponent head first wings out to brace him. This move would have a little bit of start up and slightly more ending lag, It would also do decent damage and knockback

U-Tilt: Pluck: For this move Rowlet would do a slight leap upwards in an attempt to nab foes above him. This move does a fair bit of damage but little to no knockback, instead if an aerial opponent is hit by it they lose most aerial momentum as Rowlet "plucks" it from them.

D-Tilt: Small kick: For this move Rowlet stretches his outward legs forward to knock the opponent up into the air where combos can continue. WIth little startup, ending lag, and damage, but moderate upward knockback this move allows Rowlet to start combos.

F-Smash: Steel Wing: Rowlet charges up and leaps forward slashing opponents with his wing. This move has a fair amount of start up and ending lag, but in return does good damage and knockback the more charged up it gets. The distance Rowlet leaps is about equal to that of the length of Pikachu.

U-Smash: Solar Beam: Rowlet charges up for a moment before unleashing a small upward beam that goes about the height of Link. This move would have a lot of start up to represent the fact it is a two turn move, but in return it would do massive damage and knockback. Rowlet would take a moment to recharge afterwards.

D-Smash: Grass Knot: Rowlet gestures his wings down as two grass knots, one on either side of him, appear to knock opponents back. It deals moderate damage but heavy knockback and has moderate startup and ending lag. The range on either side of Rowlet is about equal to ZSS' D-Smash on both sides of him

N-Air: Sex Kick: In the air Rowlet jets out one of his feet as the traditional sex kick. It's a Sex kick.

F-Air: Wing slice: for this move Rowlet swings his wing out horizontally knocking away opponents. This move is quick and easy and does minimal knockback and damage.

B-Air: Backwards flap: For this move Rowlet swings his wing back in a "backhand" style. This move has decent knockback at higher percentages. The move acts like a slightly tamer Slash Claw. but shorter.

U-Air: Headbutt: Rowlet flaps his wings and juts his head up for this one. This is a quick attack as it is also one of Rowlet's kill moves at higher percentages. The move has a sweet spot where, when connected, does a fair amount of upward damage and knockback.

D-Air: rapid kicks: This move is very similar to the Mii Brawler's 3rd custom down special foot flurry when done in the air. Albeit it for less time. Rowlet does three kicks instead and the third one has a meteor hitbox while the first two have moderate knockback

Grab: Rowlet leaps onto the opponent with his talons grabbing them.

Pummel: Rowlet pecks repeatedly at the opponent

Throws: Rowlet throws the opponent in the direction of the throw then follows up with two kicks knocking them awak.

N-Special: Razor Leaf: For this special Move Rowlet throws a single leaf at high speeds at the opponent, in theory the move is almost like a cross between Sheik's needles and the shuriken from the Mii SF. The leaf goes straight out with a fast moving hitbox. Little Startup and ending but the move has stun similar to Falco's Lasers or the previously mentioned needles.

S-Special: Leaf Blade: For this one Rowlet sticks out his wings and spins around going forward. Unlike R.O.B.'s S-Special this attack cannot change directions. Instead in kocks opponents into the air. The move last for a couple seconds and has decent startup and ending lag. If used in the air Rowlet will propelling himself forward. This does not put Rowlet in a helpless state.

U-Special: Sky Attack Rowlet tucks his wings in as a spins around covered in a flame hitbox. While unconventional for a Grass type this move is very similar to Flare-Blitz mixed with Fly from Charizard. In the Rowlet spins around in the air gaining upward momentum however the move can only go straight up. This does not do recoil damage and it does put Rowlet in a helpless state.

D-Special: Sucker Punch: For this counter Rowlet strikes at the opponent as a counter attack. This move has a 1.2 multiplier to damage and knockback and has moderate ending lag.

Final Smash: Bloom Doom: For his Final Smash Rowlet extends his wings upward similar to the pose the trainer makes for this Z-Move in the game. A bright flash of light erupts from Rowlet and the Z-Move symbol is shown. This takes the opponent to a special scene where they are trapped in a flowery field. Rowlet appears above them and flaps his wings downwards. This causes the flowers to explode doing massive damage and knockback to the opponent.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

In an interview, Sakurai did say that he asks what Pokemon are going to be prominent and appear in movies and the like, so the anime is likely taken into consideration. And it's not like they draw up the anime over night, the anime gets planned for a long time and then put into production. Gamefreak/Pokemon Company surely know long ahead of time what is going on in the anime.

It only took until episode three for Mimikyu to appear and become a member of Team Rocket, securing him a stable role in the future of the Anime.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I don't find a Pokemon Trainer completely out of the realm of possibility. His normals can still be punches and kicks and whatnot, but you could work Pokemon into all of his specials, as well as Smash attacks and maybe a few other places like a dash attack.

I will say, though, making a moveset like that is going to be pretty rough as far as making a character model goes, because there has to be a model for each Pokemon in the moveset. And also, it raises the "well what Pokemon do we use?" question, and that could be answered any number of ways, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be easy to answer.

The Trainer himself could not have any damaging moves, but he could have a small Pokemon with him that does the attacking for him. Could be something of a middle ground between Olimar and Rosalina, the Trainer would make a command motion and the Pokemon would attack. It wouldn't be able to be KO'd like Luma and wouldn't stray far, they'd be connected like Duck Hunt.

For his specials, he could summon four other Pokemon to do certain moves, could be anything but here's a quick draft.

The Pokemon themselves wouldn't have hurtboxes, only a general hit box, so you could theoretically swap out the team of Pokemon to match the Trainer if the Pokemon have the same general shape/can perform the move. It would look like you're summoning them, but really it would just be a move coming from the Trainer, so it's not intensive like a transformation.

Final smash could just summon a legendary to sweep the stage. That gives him a full team of six Pokemon (one always out, four for specials, and one for the final smash).

So basically how Yugi worked Jump Ultimate Stars? Because that's the same concept, only using Pokémon instead of Duel Monster Cards.

No idea.

 

[Hinata]

I don't mean to split hairs here, but...

Mimikyu got a whole song dedicated to it. Have you ever heard of a Decidueye song? I didn't think so. Checkmate.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Pokemon that look like they would make sense as fighters. Charizard, Greninja, Mewtwo, Lucario, even Pikachu and Squirtle. Ivysaur and Jigglypuff are the odd ones out.

That's so incredibly vague. "Pokemon that LOOK like they make sense as fighters. Such as every Pokemon that was previously playable in Super Smash Bros because I saw them fight."

Are you implying he picks characters by appearance? What kind of argument is that? "That character doesn't look like it would make sense as a fighter"?

Like, this is some serious argument from incredulity right here.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Are you implying he picks a Pokemon by appearance?

Well he did literally pick Greninja from concept art alone.

 

[MrReyes96]

The Trainer himself could not have any damaging moves, but he could have a small Pokemon with him that does the attacking for him. Could be something of a middle ground between Olimar and Rosalina, the Trainer would make a command motion and the Pokemon would attack. It wouldn't be able to be KO'd like Luma and wouldn't stray far, they'd be connected like Duck Hunt.

For his specials, he could summon four other Pokemon to do certain moves, could be anything but here's a quick draft.

The Pokemon themselves wouldn't have hurtboxes, only a general hit box, so you could theoretically swap out the team of Pokemon to match the Trainer if the Pokemon have the same general shape/can perform the move. It would look like you're summoning them, but really it would just be a move coming from the Trainer, so it's not intensive like a transformation.

Final smash could just summon a legendary to sweep the stage. That gives him a full team of six Pokemon (one always out, four for specials, and one for the final smash).


No idea.

I’d be down for this

 

[Starcutter]

I’ve never really been a fond of the Pokémon trainer. I usually only played the Pokémon trainer for one specific pokemon but that’s it. Usually most people would rather play as their favorite Pokémon than have it be shoe horned in a single moveset.

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant, but if you did...

I think having the Pokemon Trainer as his own character would benefit fans of certian Pokemon. I personally would rather have my favorate Pokemon be included as an up smash than not at all.

 

[Danpal65]

I don't mean to split hairs here, but...

Mimikyu got a whole song dedicated to it. Have you ever heard of a Decidueye song? I didn't think so. Checkmate.

To be fair, Magikarp and Slowpoke have songs as well, that does not mean that they are guaranteed for Smash or anything...

Or does it?

 

[Retroend]

I don't mean to split hairs here, but...

Mimikyu got a whole song dedicated to it. Have you ever heard of a Decidueye song? I didn't think so. Checkmate.

so what if it has a song? it doesn't make mimikyu any more credible to be a fighter. i honestly see mimiyu as a pokeball pokemon, not a fighter. the whole concept just doesn't ring with me.

 

[N3ON]

Both Decidueye and Mimikyu have enough merits to be included ya dopes. One is more immediately realizable as a fighter, but they both work. And they both seems pretty popular, though in different contexts.

I'd rather Decidueye because I'm tired of all the different Pikachus everywhere. This one is a detective, this one is a luchador, this one is a spooky sheet... lotta spare Pikachu rags out there I guess.

But they both have a shot, it'll come down to the powers at be, which certainly aren't us.

And that's how you don't bias it all up.

To be fair, Magikarp and Slowpoke have songs as well, that does not mean that they are guaranteed for Smash or anything...

Or does it?

They should be, those are like basically the two best Pokemon. ;P

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Well he did literally pick Greninja from concept art alone.

Concept art includes character abilities. A character doesn't get in until he can see them working as a fighter. There has to be material to work with beyond appearance.

 

[Radical Bones]

Saw a fun game on Reddit and thought I'd share.

Pick one character that debuted on each Nintendo console to be in the next Smash game:

NES: Excitebike

SNES: Dixie Kong

Gameboy: Giovanni

N64: Paper Mario

Gamecube: Louie

Wii: Captain Toad

3DS: Mimikyu

Wii U: Yarn Yoshi

Switch: Springman

 

[Deleted member]

No idea.

You can clearly see that Yugi is using his Cards (such as Dark Magician Girl) as summon attacks. What you described for Pokémon Trainer's moveset is a very similar concept to this one, only again, using Pokémon instead.

I don't mean to split hairs here, but...

Mimikyu got a whole song dedicated to it. Have you ever heard of a Decidueye song? I didn't think so. Checkmate.

Slowpoke got a song too.

.....and Magikarp. Magikarp confirmed i suppose

Seriously i don't see how this is a comelling argument.

EDIT: Greninja'd by Danpai65.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I think I've come up with the perfect list if we were to have one Pokemon from each generation:

1: Pikachu
2: Pichu
3: Plusle & Minun duo character
4: Pachirisu
5: Emolga
6: Dedenne
7: Togedemaru

I've never seen a more complete-looking list.

EDIT: How did I forget about Togedemaru?

 

[Hinata]

so what if it has a song? it doesn't make mimikyu any more credible to be a fighter. i honestly see mimiyu as a pokeball pokemon, not a fighter. the whole concept just doesn't ring with me.

Slowpoke got a song too.

.....and Magikarp. Magikarp confirmed i suppose

Seriously i don't see how this is a comelling argument.

Just a joke. Perhaps I should've made that more obvious.

 

[Danpal65]

I think I've come up with the perfect list if we were to have one Pokemon from each generation:

1: Pikachu
2: Pichu
3: Plusle & Minun duo character
4: Pachirisu
5: Emolga
6: Dedenne
7: Mimikyu

I've never seen a more complete-looking list.

You gotta choose Togedemaru over Mimikyu man!

 

[StormC]

That's so incredibly vague. "Pokemon that LOOK like they make sense as fighters. Such as every Pokemon that was previously playable in Super Smash Bros because I saw them fight."

Are you implying he picks characters by appearance? What kind of argument is that? "That character doesn't look like it would make sense as a fighter"?

Like, this is some serious argument from incredulity right here.

You were the one asking a question "Wouldn't the character that fits best in a fighting game be antithetical to wanting a unique character?" Decidueye fits the mold because it's a bipedal Pokemon with enough humanoid traits to work in a fighting game, like the majority of the characters I mentioned before. Greninja got picked when all he had going for him was this picture:

What does it tell me? That Sakurai probably picked him because it was easy and obvious to envision how he would fight in Smash. He could not follow this mold for Decidueye. But if Sakurai defaulted to mascot characters every time, we would have Meowth and Zoroark in this game.

 

[Deleted member]

From what I understand, the five characters considered the most because of recent appearances likely are Captain Toad, Dixie Kong, Decidueye, Spring Man, and Rex and Pyra, correct?

I’m going out in a limb and say most of these won’t be on the roster. I’m seeing a repeat of last game where use applied Brawl’s selection process to argue that K. Rool, Ridley, Mewtwo, and Mega Man were shoe-ins (which I was guilty of) and only one got in the base roster while the other became DLC. Likewise, the five I mentioned above are considered obvious but all of these could hypothetically not get in for good reasons. I think we’ll see Rex and Pyra on the base roster with Spring Man as DLC but the other three would genuinely surprise me.

Quit going on about Victini, will ya. xD

Wait, you actually read the old thread before you joined in? I think you came in at like May, 2012.

Ah the old days when I bothered everyone with my Victini propaganda along with a few other people. Fun times. Of course I realized that Victini wasn’t getting in by February, 2012 and reacted less than well to it. That thread alone merits a few stories.

 

[Retroend]

I think I've come up with the perfect list if we were to have one Pokemon from each generation:

1: Pikachu
2: Pichu
3: Plusle & Minun duo character
4: Pachirisu
5: Emolga
6: Dedenne
7: Mimikyu

I've never seen a more complete-looking list.

i thought togedemaru was the electric rodent for generation 7? also mimikyu isn't electric type.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Doesn't Slowpoke have a whole district in Japan right now dedicated to him?

Slowpoke for Smash Switch.

 

[Starcutter]

While I think that Mimikyu certainly has the merits of a potential smash character when we talk about relevance and popularity (There's no way Mimikyu isn't getting in as at least a pokeball or stage element) there's a big hurdle that I think it won't be able to jump over.

That hurdle is creating distinguished and different animations. I believe that it will be difficult to create enough animations for moves that look specifically different from each other. It could definitely have enough animations, but just based off the body shape and other things Mimikyu, I think many of the animations of moves may look samey.

The most important thing when creating a video game character is creating an identifiable silhouette. That also applies to moves. I think mostly every other valid Pokemon has it better when it comes to this situation.

Thats why I think Mimikyu will be a pokeball or stage element and not playable. In my opinion of course, this isn't fact.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Saw a fun game on Reddit and thought I'd share.

Pick one character that debuted on each Nintendo console to be in the next Smash game:

NES: Excitebike

SNES: Dixie Kong

Gameboy: Giovanni

N64: Paper Mario

Gamecube: Louie

Wii: Captain Toad

3DS: Mimikyu

Wii U: Yarn Yoshi

Switch: Springman

NES: Toad

SNES: Harvest Moon Farmer

Gameboy: Professor Oak

N64: Ray/Custom Robo

Gameboy Advance: Lyn

Gamecube: Chibi Robo

DS: Ashley

Wii: Now its Reyn Time! (Or Travis Touchdown)

3DS: Isabelle/Midday Lycanroc (This game needs more doggos) Or Zeraora but he's prolly not happening.

Wii U: Inklings would be the only ones I'd put here, so....

Switch: Mipha

 

[Danpal65]

Saw a fun game on Reddit and thought I'd share.

Pick one character that debuted on each Nintendo console to be in the next Smash game:

NES: Excitebike

SNES: Dixie Kong

Gameboy: Giovanni

N64: Paper Mario

Gamecube: Louie

Wii: Captain Toad

3DS: Mimikyu

Wii U: Yarn Yoshi

Switch: Springman

Alrighty!

NES - Ridley (we needs da dragon!)
SNES - K.Rool (compliments Dixie)
GameBoy - Sora (technically his debut on Nintendo consoles if you count Advance with GameBoy)
N64 - Leon S. Kennedy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
GameCube - Krystal, I guess.
DS - Rallen (from Spectrobes)
Wii - Monster Hunter
3DS - Decidueye(not trying to start an argument here)
WiiU - Elma
Switch - Rex & Pyra

 

[Fenriraga]

Real talk, if we get Pokemon Trainer alts, I want friggin Blue/Green from the Adventures Manga.

Because she is low-key the best trainer in the series.

It'll absolutely never happen, but still.

 

[StormC]

NES: Ridley
GB: Dark Matter
SNES: K. Rool
N64: Wolf
GBA: Isaac
GCN: Dr. Eggman
DS: Geo Stelar
Wii: Ghirahim
3DS: Decidueye
Wii U: Elma
Switch: Twintelle