Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

Raichu pls.

 

[MrReyes96]

Alolan Raichu

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Alolan Raichu

If they were going to pick an Alolan variant, I'd hope for Vulpix or Marowak, personally. Both are regular characters in the anime, whereas we very rarely see Raichu. Not to say Alolan Raichu isn't super cool, those two would just be my preference.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So in the new Kingdom Hearts 3 trailer. There appears to be Game & Watch style mini games that you play. Just a neat little thing to point out. Still don't think Sora is coming, but it's neat to see Disney/Square acknowledging those in Kingdom Hearts.

 

[StormC]

I honestly do think Alolan Raichu is a darkhorse. I could definitely see Sakurai wanting to represent Alolan Forms.

The only thing is it would be weird in terms of what to call the character. Does it make sense to have an "Aolan Raichu" without plain ol' Raichu?

 

[Blargg888]

This is kinda weird for me. I used Decidueye on one of my Gen VII teams, but I used Mimikyu on another one, so I have an attachment to both.

 

[MrReyes96]

I honestly do think Alolan Raichu is a darkhorse. I could definitely see Sakurai wanting to represent Alolan Forms.

The only thing is it would be weird in terms of what to call the character. Does it make sense to have an "Aolan Raichu" without plain ol' Raichu?

Just Raichu would be fine
Would be weird to hear the announcer say
ALOLAN RAICHU
or
RAICHU - ALOLA FORM

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Literally the whole trailer is ''Look Game & Watch Kingdom!?"

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I said the Pokemon Company, not GameFreak. Sakurai consults with TPC for Pokemon characters for Smash and they might choose to suggest Decidueye because he's a starter that fits perfectly into a fighting game, which they clearly agreed with for Pokken, who for a time was the sole representative of gen 7 until Mimikyu was later revealed.

Mimikyu certainly has a lot going for him. So does Decidueye. You really shouldn't be looking to tear down Decidueye to make Mimikyu look better/more likely.

I'm not tearing down Decidueye any more than you're tearing down Mimikyu. The Pokemon Company doesn't choose Pokemon FOR Sakurai.

Saying a character "is perfectly fit for a fighting game" is kind of dismissing the whole point of Super Smash Bros which is to have characters that aren't just super easy to put into a fighting game. Part of what makes fighters in Super Smash Bros interesting is because they have unique animations and abilities that require thinking outside the box to make them fit in a fighting game. Instead of just jumping towards the humanoid being with a weapons arsenal. Part of why people like Super Smash Bros is characters you wouldn't normally expect to fit in a fighting game.

It's not as interesting to just go for the easier option. I think you're selling Sakurai and the Pokemon Company short. The Pokemon Company clearly had plans for Mimikyu. And Sakurai isn't just going to be satisfied with them selecting a set of Pokemon to present to him. Sakurai is going to want to see all the Pokemon on the table and pick the one that would be the most interesting and potentially popular among fans which Mimikyu inevitably would be and is. (popular, I mean. interesting is subjective)

But, to say that a character "fits perfectly in a fighting game" is selling oneself short.

And again. "He was playable in Pokken" is not a good argument. Or at least it's not the end all be all that you think it is. You seem to think that's somehow the nail in the coffin.

 

[Senselessbreak]

I honestly do think Alolan Raichu is a darkhorse. I could definitely see Sakurai wanting to represent Alolan Forms.

The only thing is it would be weird in terms of what to call the character. Does it make sense to have an "Aolan Raichu" without plain ol' Raichu?

Does it make sense to have Breath of the Wild Link without Ocarina Link? Its still Raichu, just updated with new abilities.

 

[StormC]

Honestly Sora would have a pretty good shot if it wasn't for the whole Disney thing. It's not just the licensing, but the fact that Kingdom Hearts is, well, a Disney setting. Sakurai might feel he can't accurately represent the franchise if he had to push everything Disney-related into a corner.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Literally the whole trailer is ''Look Game & Watch Kingdom!?"

I still can't get over how adorable this trailer is. And it's such a nice homage to classic Mickey and Game & Watch.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Does it make sense to have Breath of the Wild Link without Ocarina Link? Its still Raichu, just updated with new abilities.

It's a form of Raichu. It would be like having Zero Suit Samus, but no Samus.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Honestly, this makes me wonder if we'll see Kingdom Hearts 3 on Switch at E3 more than if we'll see Sora pop up in Smash.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Honestly Sora would have a pretty good shot if it wasn't for the whole Disney thing. It's not just the licensing, but the fact that Kingdom Hearts is, well, a Disney setting. Sakurai might feel he can't accurately represent the franchise if he had to push everything Disney-related into a corner.

Yeah, but why? Like set the whole Disney thing aside. Why Sora? Why Kingdom Hearts?

 

[Danpal65]

Honestly, this makes me wonder if we'll see Kingdom Hearts 3 on Switch at E3 more than if we'll see Sora pop up in Smash.

I think there is a strong possibility. No way it would launch at the same time as PS4 and Xbox One (why the heck is it on this console?!), but I could very well see an announcement for it coming beginning-mid of next year for sure.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Does it make sense to have Breath of the Wild Link without Ocarina Link? Its still Raichu, just updated with new abilities.

It's not the same thing. Link still has the same overall design even then. You can clearly recognize the character. But also it's just updating the regular character to the latest design.

I don't think it'd be weird to have Alolan Raichu in even without regular Raichu. It's just that the comparison isn't really a good one.

 

[Senselessbreak]

Just Raichu would be fine
Would be weird to hear the announcer say
ALOLAN RAICHU
or
RAICHU - ALOLA FORM

It definetaly would be called just Raichu. Even in game an alolan pokemon is called its regular name.

 

[MrReyes96]

It's a form of Raichu. It would be like having Zero Suit Samus, but no Samus.

Well no it’s still a Raichu, just from a different region.
Raichu doesn’t lose his armor and become Alolan Raichu.

Plus Alolan Raichu has the ability to use psychic attacks, making for better moveset potential.
And I think we’d all love to see him levitate across the stage with his tail.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I still wanna know. Wouldn't the character that fits best in a fighting game be antithetical to wanting a unique character?

 

[StormC]

Yeah, but why? Like set the whole Disney thing aside. Why Sora? Why Kingdom Hearts?

Because Kingdom Hearts is a popular franchise and Sora is a well known, iconic character, arguably one of the last third parties left that is recognizable on the level of the characters we have. He mentioned during an interview regarding Cloud/Final Fantasy that he was running out of viable third party characters/ franchises:

Sakurai: Final Fantasy (FF below) is one of the few uniquely Japanese game series revered by players around the world. I think fans across the globe have hoped a character from one of those series would appear in Smash, so it was only a matter of time. At the same time, there are only so many big-name titles we can work with at this point—mainly because we’ve covered most of those bases. Aside from the major globally-recognized franchises already featured in Smash, there really aren’t that many left.

—That’s true. No other franchises come to mind.

Sakurai: Exactly.

I'm not a Kingdom Hearts fan but I can't rule out the possibility.

 

[Danpal65]

I still wanna know. Wouldn't the character that fits best in a fighting game be antithetical to wanting a unique character?

Not necessarily. Ryu was pretty much perfect for being in a fighting game because, well, he is already in one, but he is a pretty darn unique fighter in Smash.

I think what is more appropriate to say when people say a character would fit best in a fighting game, or Smash, is that the moveset is something that they can more easily visuals and see working.

Decidueye, for example, is one that people can visualise as working in Smash, using archery moves and whatnot, whereas, using your example of Mimikyu, and not trying to come across as saying it is a bad choice, but it is a bit harder to see how it could work and be an interesting and distinct fighter in comparison.

 

[StormC]

I still wanna know. Wouldn't the character that fits best in a fighting game be antithetical to wanting a unique character?

Not necessarily. Sakurai said if he can't envision the character "dancing," he has a hard time picturing them as a fighter. So Mimikyu is 50/50 to me. Either Sakurai thinks the character is too unorthodox for a fighter, or it's exactly what he would be drawn to. After all, he picked Greninja because he translated to fighting in Smash the best of the Kalos starters, but then he's also picked characters like Duck Hunt.

Obviously you really want Mimikyu in and that's fine. But Mimikyu might also miss the boat a la mascots like Meowth and Zoroark.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Yeah, but why? Like set the whole Disney thing aside. Why Sora? Why Kingdom Hearts?

Why not Sora?

He's from one of the most beloved RPG series of the modern era? So he's relevant.

He's tied to Final Fantasy and Disney. Two beloved other franchises from this era and past eras.

He's got a neat design. A unique weapon. Moveset potential.

So again. Why not Sora?

 

[MrReyes96]

There’s only one alola form that should really be in smash anyway.

Spoiler

 

[Danpal65]

There’s only one alola form that should really be in smash anyway.

Spoiler

Sweet God! What have you seared into my eyeballs?!

 

[Opossum]

If you guys had to pick Pokémon you love out of all 800 to add in smash which would you add?

I’d pick Golurk, a big ghost/ground type Pokémon would be unlike any other one in the game so far.
I’d also love Hawlucha, a flying/fighting type wrestler bird is almost too perfect for smash.

Any from this list, honestly.

Marowak
Snorlax
Ursaring
Qwilfish
Shiftry
Castform
Unfezant
Sawsbuck
Chandelure
Klefki
Trevenant
Volcanion
Decidueye
Toucannon
Ribombee


Obviously some would work better than others, but those are just my favorites, pretty much.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Not necessarily. Ryu was pretty much perfect for being in a fighting game because, well, he is already in one, but he is a pretty darn unique fighter in Smash.

I think what is more appropriate to say when people say a character would fit best in a fighting game, or Smash, is that the moveset is something that they can more easily visuals and see working.

Decidueye, for example, is one that people can visualise as working in Smash, using archery moves and whatnot, whereas, using your example of Mimikyu, and not trying to come across as saying it is a bad choice, but it is a bit harder to see how it could work and be an interesting and distinct fighter in comparison.

What is so hard about seeing Mimikyu work? He as just as many abilities as Decidueye. There's nothing keeping him from moving or jumping or carrying things.

The whole point is that Mimikyu actually has unique characteristics when it comes to the way he moves, attacks, and just his form in general. It's not just what he can do that makes him unique either. It's what he is. That's what I mean when I say he's more interesting than someone who is "designed for a fighting game".

 

[StormC]

Also, Mimikyu is partnered with Mega Rayquaza in Pokken as an assist character. Not really an equal comparison to Decidueye as a standalone fighter, who is currently still the only fully playable gen 7 fighter.

 

[JamesDNaux]

My own personal pick for Pokemon would be bringing back the Trainer but as a summon fighter. Have him in the fray throwing out Pokemon for single attacks, make his alts the different trainers from each gen, etc.

I never particularly cared for Pokemon themselves in Smash, I want to play as the actual characters from the games.

 

[MrReyes96]

My own personal pick for Pokemon would be bringing back the Trainer but as a summon fighter. Have him in the fray throwing out Pokemon for single attacks, make his alts the different trainers from each gen, etc.

I never particularly cared for Pokemon themselves in Smash, I want to play as the actual characters from the games.

I always thought N from black and white would be a good character to do this with.

 

[Opossum]

What is so hard about seeing Mimikyu work? He as just as many abilities as Decidueye. There's nothing keeping him from moving or jumping or carrying things.

The whole point is that Mimikyu actually has unique characteristics when it comes to the way he moves, attacks, and just his form in general. It's not just what he can do that makes him unique either. It's what he is. That's what I mean when I say he's more interesting than someone who is "designed for a fighting game".

It's not that it's hard to see how Mimikyu would work, but that it's a lot easier to see how Decidueye would.

With Mimikyu its main draw is its Disguise ability. How would it be incorporated? Super armor? Non-standard hitbox like the Junior Clown Car? Something else entirely? And then as far as attacks, it mainly relies on slashing or bludgeoning moves, like Shadow Claw or Wood Hammer. But on the surface level I can see how that's potentially not enough for some people.

Meanwhile Decidueye's design is immediately evocative of how it would play: a long-ranged sniper who is proficient with archery, uses wing and talon moves at close range, and has a grass-type flavor to it (plus ghost, but that's not immediately noticeable). And that sort of archetype isn't really in Smash yet, so combined with being easily envisionable, it makes people really want Decidueye.

Basically it's a matter of how much something clicks on just a surface level. With Decidueye you can look at it and immediately see how it would work. Mimikyu's design meanwhile leaves a lot of questions to be asked. Not that those questions can't be answered, mind you, but they definitely exist.

 

[Danpal65]

It's not that it's hard to see how Mimikyu would work, but that it's a lot easier to see how Decidueye would.

With Mimikyu its main draw is its Disguise ability. How would it be incorporated? Super armor? Non-standard hitbox like the Junior Clown Car? Something else entirely? And then as far as attacks, it mainly relies on slashing or bludgeoning moves, like Shadow Claw or Wood Hammer. But on the surface level I can see how that's potentially not enough for some people.

Meanwhile Decidueye's design is immediately evocative of how it would play: a long-ranged sniper who is proficient with archery, uses wing and talon moves at close range, and has a grass-type flavor to it (plus ghost, but that's not immediately noticeable). And that sort of archetype isn't really in Smash yet, so combined with being easily envisionable, it makes people really want Decidueye.

Basically it's a matter of how much something clicks on just a surface level. With Decidueye you can look at it and immediately see how it would work. Mimikyu's design meanwhile leaves a lot of questions to be asked. Not that those questions can't be answered, mind you, but they definitely exist.

Thank you. I was not quite sure how to word my response to ensure that it was not overly negative and I think this captures my sentiment quite well.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Also, Mimikyu is partnered with Mega Rayquaza in Pokken as an assist character. Not really an equal comparison to Decidueye as a standalone fighter, who is currently still the only fully playable gen 7 fighter.

My point was that they were both the only gen 7 Pokemon in the game. Not that they were of equal status in the game.

The point I was trying to make is that Mimikyu's list of credentials and appearances is larger and the only thing he brought up was that Decidueye was in Pokken Tournament.

So it's not much of a refutation is what I'm saying.

 

[Retroend]

i hope decidueye gets in instead of mimikyu. i really can't picture mimikyu fighting like in smash bros.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

i really can't picture mimikyu fighting like in smash bros.

Again. A lack of imagination is not a good argument against a character. There were plenty of people who said the same thing about Pac-Man and Duck Hunt. Difference is that Mimikyu has a long list of abilities already.

 

[StormC]

My point was that they were both the only gen 7 Pokemon in the game. Not that they were of equal status in the game.

The point I was trying to make is that Mimikyu's list of credentials and appearances is larger and the only thing he brought up was that Decidueye was in Pokken Tournament.

So it's not much of a refutation is what I'm saying.

Decidueye being put in a Pokemon fighting crossover as the sole playable representative of generation 7 is a pretty big deal when we're talking about the sole playable representative of generation 7 in a Nintendo fighting crossover.

For the record, I'd give Decidueye about 50% chances and Mimikyu about 40% chances. Decidueye is more in line with what Sakurai looks for in a Pokemon fighter than Mimikyu is.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I always thought N from black and white would be a good character to do this with.

I mean the player character, the Pokemon Trainer.

With these guys as alts

 

[Retroend]

Again. A lack of imagination is not a good argument against a character. There were plenty of people who said the same thing about Pac-Man and Duck Hunt. Difference is that Mimikyu has a long list of abilities already.

i could imagine pac man but duck hunt was a rather surprising inclusion.

 

[StormC]

The humans are the most boring thing about Pokemon games so hard pass on them being playable. From an animation standpoint a Pokeball-based moveset seems completely impractical anyway.