Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A cute and at the time relevant Pokemon, closely tied to the mascot of the franchise and representative of breeding and baby Pokemon introduced.

I say it counts.

I thought it was chosen mainly due to the clone status and movie appearances?

Obviously it also happens to be what you said, including the only playable Gen II Pokemon, but I can't remember if that was important to the choice itself. It might've been slightly more relevant considering what Gen was active at the time, but also had a far more similar shape to Pikachu than Raichu, making it an easy clone.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Not trying to shut down the discussion here or tell anyone they are a bad person, but nothing disappoints me more than someone who hates a character being playable or wants characters removed from a game.

There's times where being a cynic really helps. And I hate to be that guy who's like "Come on, man. Can't you just learn to have FUN." But, it's just straight up disrespectful to rally against a character in a video game.

People who like a character should always be prioritized over people who don't. Whether it's Pichu or Pink Gold Peach or even Spike in Mario Party 10, there's a line that cynicism shouldn't cross. And complaining about characters in a video game is where I personally would draw it.

There are kids who grow up with these games. Kids who are innocent at heart and develop a love for these characters. Their wishes should not be stomped on because we as adults think we know better than they do, because our developed minds are clouded by how "useful" a character is or how important we think they are or just straight up cynical "That character's just a skin! A clone! A costume!" Like most people aren't bothered by that.

There used to be a time when we were younger, when people were more concerned with having fun in a game rather than competitive strategies. And if I someone wants to main Pichu or Jigglypuff, or if Metal Mario or Spike is their favorite Mario character, who are we to tell them no because we hold our subjective and very harsh opinions about characters above their innocent naivety.?

Maybe you weren't that person when you were a kid and you always thought Pichu or Jigglypuff was a waste. But, like I said, what matters more is the people who are actually having fun.

It doesn't matter what the game is. Taking any character away from anybody, should not be taken lightly.

I’m sorry, but video games is a silly thing to draw a line about cynicism in. Like, it’s literally one of the least consequential things in existence. And kids? They’ll get over stuff like that. No 10 year old is going to be scarred for life because “the yellow electro mouse is gone.”

I don’t want cuts either, but some people are taking the discussion way too seriously. Just because someone doesn’t care if a character returns, and speculates as such, doesn’t mean they’re being a terrible person.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

No gen 2,3,5, Pokémon are in smash.

I don't see why that matters even slightly. There's not going to be a Pokemon for every generation. Otherwise we'd have to cut Charizard and Mewtwo as well.

Smash is supposed to be a game celebrating Nintendo’s history, and having better representation for all generations of Pokémon would be ideal

There's no reason to have one character for every game in a series. I'd rather have the characters that people actually like instead of focusing on superficial things like "This series has more characters than that series so we need to shoe horn in a bunch of characters that don't matter because we gotta have one character for every game or we gotta have more characters from this game than that game.

 

[MrReyes96]

True, Pichu was cut, but it still was in Smash, even if only once.

I'm curious, what makes those Pokemon count? Because none of them are particularly relevant.

Unique movesets, appearance, type
It would be so easy to tweak the Pokémon roster so that every gen gets a rep. And if any series should be over represented it’s pokemon and Mario.

 

[StormC]

Why blow a bunch of time and resources on extra Pokemon "reps" when they can add characters fans actually want to see?

 

[vaanrose]

Someone post Artsy Omni's breakdown of the "leak" yet?

It was a decent watch.

"Of course, 4Chan, that should be a red flag right away."

The one real leak we got was on 4chan, tho

"The Spring Man model is too high resolution."

I disagree with this one. I can see the polygons on him. When he shows the two models side by side, the Arms model is quite smooth in all the same areas the leak one is.

"The Shadow is too high fidelity."

This I agree with. I've been saying it's more likely to be a rendered video than a Wii U mod. This only cements it.

"Decidueye model is very close to the 3DS version"

Eeeeeh, not really? Especially when he puts them side by side like that, there's some pretty glaring differences. The "contours" that he mentions aren't really that similar at all, beyond being the same character design. I agree it looks far too simple for Smash, especially when put next to Spring Man, who has some materials that look even more complex than the ones he had in Arms (probably, again, a result of being pre-rendered).

 

[MrReyes96]

Implying Pokémon doesn’t have a huge fanbase that would love more unique representation in smash bros

 

[TheLastJinjo]

if she's going to stay a Kirby clone with not much change then why keep her?

If that's really how you determine a character's worth then I don't know what to tell you. No offense, but that's just a really sad perspective to look at things with.

Like Jigglypuff has a huge fanbase, but you've just cheapened her into nothing. That's the kind of cynicism I'm talking about that goes past the line.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Why blow a bunch of time and resources on extra Pokemon "reps" when they can add characters fans actually want to see?

I mean a lot of people want to see a lot of Pokemon, it's one of the single most recognizable and popular franchises in the world.

 

[Hinata]

For those of you arguing that every generation of Pokemon should get a rep (which I agree with to an extent, half the generations of Pokemon have been getting shafted for years in terms of Smash representation), what Pokemon would you chose from each of the unrepped generations to put in Smash?

 

[StormC]

Implying Pokémon doesn’t have a huge fanbase that would love more unique representation in smash bros

Pokemon (and Mario) also aren't the only franchises in Smash. Not saying they can't get more characters or preferential treatment, but let's not get crazy here. If anything, Sakurai has shown amazing restraint with these franchises, and thankfully so.

 

[IronTed]

The other advantage Pichu had was the anime. At the turn of the millenium the show was still rather strong, and that Pichu had a notable role.

But beyond that, being an easy clone was a large factor.

Pichu also showed the new mechanic of baby Pokemon too, although I doubt that was a deciding factor for its inclusion.

 

[Pakky]

They also aren't the only franchises in Smash. Not saying they can't get more characters or preferential treatment, but let's not get crazy here. If anything, Sakurai has shown amazing restraint with these franchises, and thankfully so.

To this I have to agree, I hate bloat which why I think 6 is fine, the number itself reps the series. But that 6 should be a solid and relevant 6.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For those of you arguing that every generation of Pokemon should get a rep (which I agree with to an extent, half the generations of Pokemon have been getting shafted for years in terms of Smash representation), what Pokemon would you chose from each of the unrepped generations to put in Smash?

Though they do get representations. Trophies, Pokeball, Stage appearances...

With so much to choose from, and with timing of development, it's completely understandable why only some gems shine through.

That said, if I had 1 per...

Gen 1: Pikachu
Gen 2: Pichu(I love this one too much)
Gen 3: Deoxys
Gen 4: Lucario
Gen 5: Genesect
Gen 6: Greninja
Gen 7: Mimikyu

 

[TheLastJinjo]

The other advantage Pichu had was the anime. At the turn of the millenium the show was still rather strong, and the Pichu had a notable role.

But beyond that, being an easy clone was a large factor.

Pichu also showed the new mechanic of baby Pokemon too, although I'm doubt that was a deciding factor for its inclusion.

I mean that combined with the fact that he's a baby version of the company's mascot is enough to say he earned his inclusion. And that's why I want him back so badly.

 

[Hinata]

The other advantage Pichu had was the anime. At the turn of the millenium the show was still rather strong, and the Pichu had a notable role.

They're the Pichu Brothers, but I'm suuuuuuure you knew that~♪

 

[Pakky]

Like Jigglypuff has a huge fanbase

Then why no real change to her in over 20 years and being in Smash since its inception?

-Its terrible in the Pokemon games

- It has not benefited from any of the new mechanics

It's sad but thems the breaks.

 

[TumblrFamous]

If that's really how you determine a character's worth then I don't know what to tell you. No offense, but that's just a really sad perspective to look at things with.

Like Jigglypuff has a huge fanbase, but you've just cheapened her into nothing. That's the kind of cynicism I'm talking about that goes past the line.

You really can't draw some conclusion about some forum user's personality flaws just because they don't like a particular character in a fighting game. It's not that deep.

The person doesn't like Jigglypuff, and feels a certain way about the character. So what. It's not like they're attacking Puff mains or anything. They feel the character has gone stale/irrelevant and should get some kind of rework/revival or else what's the point of having them? I don't see the issue trying to draw some line of "cynicism".

 

[MrReyes96]

Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Charizard. Mewtwo (gen 1)
Pichu/Suicine/Heracross/Tyranitar (Gen 2)
Sceptile/Blaziken/Swampert/Deoxys/Gardevoir (gen 3)
Lucario/Garchomp/Empoleon/Torterra/Infernape (Gen 4)
Samurrot, Scrafty, Chandelure, Golurk, Haxorus (Gen 5)

These are just off the top of my head
My point is just that there are so many Pokémon and it’s impossible to have them all in, so having at least one rep for each generation would be a fair way of representing the series in smash

Edit: I don’t mean all of these should be in smash, I just mean at least one from gen 2 onwards should be in

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Then why no real change to her in over 20 years and being in Smash since its inception?

Because the data implies she's one of the last to be done. Just having them there is enough. Keep in mind that's the actual reason why Dr. Mario became a clone again, to please the fans.

Fan favorites do not automatically get buffs/changes. It's not that simple. Ideas for what changes are needed, and reasons to give those changes. Literally the only notable thing to happen to her is... she got the Fairy type. But this wasn't relevant to her playstyle anyway, as she was a physical air attacker with sound-related moves.

 

[StormC]

I'm a Pokemon fan that's been playing the games for the last 20 years ever since Red and Blue arrived to American shores, and as someone who is sick of how The Pokemon Company pimps out the first generation and leaves the others in the dust, I am 100% okay with it getting preferential treatment in Smash. It's the original generation that turned the franchise into a worldwide phenomenon and will always be the most popular/iconic. I could see older Pokemon being added due to remakes (this is sorta what happened with Pokemon Trainer and FRLG), but they aren't needed other than an arbitrary want to give each generation a "rep" (we play as characters, not reps).

 

[Pakky]

Because the data implies she's one of the last to be done. Just having them there is enough. Keep in mind that's the actual reason why Dr. Mario became a clone again, to please the fans.

Fan favorites do not automatically get buffs/changes. It's not that simple. Ideas for what changes are needed, and reasons to give those changes. Literally the only notable thing to happen to her is... she got the Fairy type. But this wasn't relevant to her playstyle anyway, as she was a physical air attacker with sound-related moves.

No no I meant Jiggs in Pokemon period. Her time in smash has not done anything for her in the games which is a little sad.

 

[N3ON]

Not trying to shut down the discussion here or tell anyone they are a bad person, but nothing disappoints me more than someone who hates a character being playable or wants characters removed from a game.

There's times where being a cynic really helps. And I hate to be that guy who's like "Come on, man. Can't you just learn to have FUN." But, it's just straight up disrespectful to rally against a character in a video game.

People who like a character should always be prioritized over people who don't. Whether it's Pichu or Pink Gold Peach or even Spike in Mario Party 10, there's a line that cynicism shouldn't cross. And complaining about characters in a video game is where I personally would draw it.

There are kids who grow up with these games. Kids who are innocent at heart and develop a love for these characters. Their wishes should not be stomped on because we as adults think we know better than they do, because our developed minds are clouded by how "useful" a character is or how important we think they are.

There used to be a time when we were younger, when people were more concerned with having fun in a game rather than competitive strategies. And if I someone wants to main Pichu or Jigglypuff, or if Metal Mario or Spike is their favorite Mario character, who are we to tell them no because we hold our subjective and very harsh opinions about characters above their innocent naivety.?

Maybe you weren't that person when you were a kid and you always thought Pichu or Jigglypuff was a waste. But, like I said, what matters more is the people who are actually having fun.

It doesn't matter what the game is. Taking any character away from anybody, should not be taken lightly.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that asking for characters to be axed existed before we joined the scene, it'll exist after we leave, it'll exist past Smash, and it'll exist regardless of how constantly you want to echo this point. It'll exist as long as people have opinions. So irrespective of how valid or invalid a point you're making, I don't think much will change; you're just preaching to people who've already heard the sermon.

You disagree and that's fine, but I think it's time to accept that people value different things. Expressing dislike over a video game character is only as disrespectful as you let it be. The character doesn't care, and the person barely ever aims to insult the fans. If I took offence at every opinion that didn't align with mine I'd have a massive chip on my shoulder.

What's the saying? Have the serenity to accept what you can't change, the courage to change what you can, and the wisdom to know the difference? The viewpoint of "well that person and I don't see eye to eye on this" seems a whole lot less toxic than "this person aims to step on all our childhoods! The nerve!". It's not like any isolated opinion here can actually effect the game.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

You really can't draw some conclusion about some forum user's personality flaws just because they don't like a particular character in a fighting game. It's not that deep.

I'm not.

The person doesn't like Jigglypuff, and feels a certain way about the character. So what. It's not like they're attacking Puff mains or anything.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion about his opinion?

They feel character has gone stale and should get some kind of rework or else what's the point of having them? I don't see the issue trying to draw some line of "cynicism".

I mean when you just go right out and say "If they just a clone why keep them?" then it's kind of necessary to point out "Because people like the character that's why"

The fact that he didn't even consider "Maybe because people like Jigglypuff" is why I was saying that his cynicism went past the line. Because all he was concerned with was why he doesn't like Jigglypuff and didn't consider the giant following of her supporters as an answer to his question.

It's going past the line when you feel entitled to have characters you hate removed from a game and use that alone as a justification for it.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Then why no real change to her in over 20 years and being in Smash since its inception?

-Its terrible in the Pokemon games

- It has not benefited from any of the new mechanics

It's sad but thems the breaks.

Real talk though I wish Jigglypuff was still in the anime. Watching the anime on Saturday mornings and seeing her pop up every once and awhile was so fun (as fun as a 5-year old could have with it that is).

 

[MrReyes96]

I'm a Pokemon fan that's been playing the games for the last 20 years ever since Red and Blue arrived to American shores, and as someone who is sick of how The Pokemon Company pimps out the first generation and leaves the others in the dust, I am 100% okay with it getting preferential treatment in Smash. It's the original generation that turned the franchise into a worldwide phenomenon and will always be the most popular/iconic. I could see older Pokemon being added due to remakes (this is sorta what happened with Pokemon Trainer and FRLG), but they aren't needed other than an arbitrary want to give each generation a "rep" (we play as characters, not reps).

My favorite gens are 5 and 3, is it wrong of me to want to play as a Pokémon from those games?

 

[Hinata]

Here's a question I thought of while browsing the Smash wiki. Now that we aren't being held back by the 3DS, do you think Sakurai will bring back character transformations? Or do you think that now that he's gone to the effort of splitting characters that used to transform into each other, he'll keep it that way?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Honestly whether people like it or not Jigglypuff is hella popular and hella iconic, when randoms think of pokemon jiggs is one of the pokemon they always think of. Maybe that was partly because of smash but it's also from the anime and how heavily promoted with merchandise they were. We're 4 games in. They're staying.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Real talk though I wish Jigglypuff was still in the anime. Watching the anime on Saturday mornings and seeing her pop up every once and awhile was so fun (as fun as a 5-year old could have with it that is).

Growing up with her in the anime and in SSB. Jigglypuff is just as much a mascot to me as Pikachu. Having Pikachu without Jigglypuff in Smash is like having bread without butter. They both represent the trainers, boy and girl. That's important considering Pokemon is popular among both genders. I feel Jigglypuff is important for little girls.

 

[StormC]

My favorite gens are 5 and 3, is it wrong of me to want to play as a Pokémon from those games?

An opinion isn't wrong. It's an opinion. But I think there's a difference between "here's what I think would make the game better/more well-rounded" and "here's what I want specifically for me."

 

[TheLastJinjo]

An opinion isn't wrong. It's an opinion. But I think there's a difference between "here's what I think would make the game better/more well-rounded" and "here's what I want specifically for me."

Thank you. I'm not good with words, but that's pretty much what I was trying to say.

 

[Blargg888]

Here's a question I thought of while browsing the Smash wiki. Now that we aren't being held back by the 3DS, do you think Sakurai will bring back character transformations? Or do you think that now that he's gone to the effort of splitting characters that used to transform into each other, he'll keep it that way?

I hope characters stay split. Transformations kinda hindered characters, in that it made the characters feel less cohesive. Also, the lack of transformations allowed Sakurai to expand Zelda, Sheik, and Charizard's movesets, so I think things are fine the way they are.

 

[MrReyes96]

An opinion isn't wrong. It's an opinion. But I think there's a difference between "here's what I think would make the game better/more well-rounded" and "here's what I want specifically for me."

If Pokémon trainer stayed in smash this could’ve easily been done. 2 trainers, with one starter Pokémon from each gen for example
1. Mudkip, Bayleef, Charizard
2. Chespin, Pignite, Empoleon

Oh well, i’ll just deal with every other gen not getting as much attention as gen 1.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Speaking of Pokemon. I've noticed a lot of things about Mimikyu relating to his merits.

• Heavily promoted and popular
• Appears as a Totem Pokemon with a backstory and talks
• Member of Team Rocket/Several appearances in Anime
• Basically a rival to Pikachu and resembles him, drawing interesting in his design
• Ghost Pokemon

I've never been mad about a character's inclusion in Super Smash Bros before. But, if any Pokemon gets in over Mimikyu, I'm gonna be super pissed off.

 

[Opossum]

For those of you arguing that every generation of Pokemon should get a rep (which I agree with to an extent, half the generations of Pokemon have been getting shafted for years in terms of Smash representation), what Pokemon would you chose from each of the unrepped generations to put in Smash?

Personally I'd go Ursaring/Shiftry/Chandelure/Decidueye.

 

[IronTed]

I never viewed the 7 Pokemon generations equivalently. If we're being honest, the most iconic Pokemon are not evenly dispersed among them.

Pikachu, Mewtwo, Charizard, Lucario, and Greninja are all popular (yes I know about the latter's unique situation). Jigglypuff and Pichu had some relevance at one point, and Squirtle is also iconic. Ivysaur got in because the other stages were taken.

Almost every Smash playable Pokemon has also had a prominent role in the anime. Ivysaur is the exception, but for reasons already stated.

Realistically, you can't fault the choices they have made. Maybe they should have added more, but at some point you have oversaturation.

 

[MrReyes96]

I’ll even take Pichu if it means adding Genesect and Deoxys to the roster

 

[TumblrFamous]

I'm not.


Am I not allowed to have an opinion about his opinion?


I mean when you just go right out and say "If they just a clone why keep them?" then it's kind of necessary to point out "Because people like the character that's why"

The fact that he didn't even consider "Maybe because people like Jigglypuff" is why I was saying that his cynicism went past the line. Because all he was concerned with was why he doesn't like Jigglypuff and didn't consider the giant following of her supporters as an answer to his question.

It's going past the line when you feel entitled to have characters you hate removed from a game and use that alone as a justification for it.

From what I read, the user simply stated that the character isn't relevant to the Pokemon franchise anymore, and would rather have a set of Pokemon characters that are relevant to the core series (either through anime, game mechanics, popularity, etc.). Puff doesn't have that anymore (definitely had it in 64 what with being super popular from the anime!).

Using charged language like how they're "rallying against a character they hate" and how their view is "a really sad perspective to look at things with" is not constructive. Ultimately, people will always disagree and that's okay; for as something as frivolous as an upcoming fighting game, you just share from each perspective, see if anyone has a change of heart or learns something, and move on. But that's just my look on things.

EDIT: Sorry if we moved past this, I take forever to formulate my thoughts and reply

 

[Blargg888]

Personally I'd go Ursaring/Shiftry/Chandelure/Decidueye.

I'm glad that somebody else sees the light that is Chandelure.

Seriously though, my "dream that will never happen" Smash character is definitely Chandelure. There is nobody that I want more than Chandelure.

 

[MrReyes96]

I'm glad that somebody else sees the light that is Chandelure.

Seriously though, my "dream that will never happen" Smash character is definitely Chandelure. There is nobody that I want more than Chandelure.

Gen 5 has such a good batch of monsters