Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shroob]

That's a popular opinion from what I see on other sites.

Usually I get called a sexist pig for saying such a thing.



Now, to be blunt, I've never actually been in the position to PLAY the newer Tomb Raider games myself, but as someone who grew up with a PS1 and the original 2 Tomb Raider games, this Lara just seems.... I dunno, soo damn frail? OG Lara flipped around while throwing down with friggen wild cats and bears while dual wielding... I can't imagine this new Lara could do such a thing.


Yeah, there's a LOT of ignorance on my part here that I wholly admit, but from what I've seen, and how they advertised the first game in the series reboot, if left a weird taste in my mouth.

 

[DutchPichu]

https://youtu.be/iEH5VFG-Q2k

So how can we explain this at 48:06?

 

[dream1ng]

I don't think there's a candidate I feel as little about either way as Lara Croft.

I'm not questioning her qualifications or uniqueness, I'm just fiercely apathetic, paradoxical as that might seem.

 

[Impa4Smash]

I feel like I'm the only one who'd want someone from Bravely Default as the new Square Rep. . .

Man, I was loving that game until you had to repeat everything like 4 times. I had to stop, just too repetitive.

But if we got a rep from that it'd probably be Agnes or Tiz instead of the far superior Edea or Ringabel so no thanks

 

[Shroob]

https://youtu.be/iEH5VFG-Q2k

So how can we explain this at 48:06?

Perhaps WoL has 'mini-bosses'?


I dunno, the only datamined bosses we have so far have dedicated arenas to them, so perhaps some bosses actually are more like stage hazards than actual fights?

 

[A.G.L.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the three fighting game Square crossovers (Noctis, 2B, and Cloud) feature characters that may be protagonists, but are also used heavily in their series' promotion. Why not entertain that commonality instead of the protagonist aspect? You could draw many parallels, but the one of Square contributing characters that are used strongly in promotion doesn't come at the omission of examples that don't fit the pattern.

Im not saying that Slime's chances are none, but instead very low. And yes you are correct, those characters are heavily used in their promotion. All of that is true, but its also true that Square does not put regular enemies as their fighting game characters. Again I see where you are coming from and I understand your reasoning. However it does not fit Square's patterns, yes they choose characters that are heavily promoted within their own series. However all these characters are not regular enemies, they are the hero of the story. I just don't see it based on Square's patterns. Please also see NonSpecificGuy post about this.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Usually I get called a sexist pig for saying such a thing.



Now, to be blunt, I've never actually been in the position to PLAY the newer Tomb Raider games myself, but as someone who grew up with a PS1 and the original 2 Tomb Raider games, this Lara just seems.... I dunno, soo damn frail? OG Lara flipped around while throwing down with friggen wild cats and bears while dual wielding... I can't imagine this new Lara could do such a thing.


Yeah, there's a LOT of ignorance on my part here that I wholly admit, but from what I've seen, and how they advertised the first game in the series reboot, if left a weird taste in my mouth.

Well the reboots are the origins of Lara Croft after all

But I can't blame you for disliking reboot Lara

The first of the reboot trilogy is the only Tomb Raider game I played and I've always wanted to play the older games. I could've if only Sony added Tomb Raider on the Playstation Classic but sadly I'll have to find another way to play PS1 masterpieces...

 

[Fatmanonice]

On the topic of Dragon Quest, people have noted that they have appeared with Mario characters but that's because Square developed the crossover games themselves. Much like in the case of Kingdom Hearts, these characters have never appeared outside of games that Square didn't develop, publish, or both, even more notable because of Dragon Quest's 30 year history. Armor Project owns the rights to the games and characters, Koichi Sugiyama owns the music, and Square Enix has the assets because they're the ones that actually develop the games.

 

[ChronoKatie]

https://youtu.be/iEH5VFG-Q2k

So how can we explain this at 48:06?

Just spirits maybe? Spirits are a big part of WoL itself afterall...

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Usually I get called a sexist pig for saying such a thing.



Now, to be blunt, I've never actually been in the position to PLAY the newer Tomb Raider games myself, but as someone who grew up with a PS1 and the original 2 Tomb Raider games, this Lara just seems.... I dunno, soo damn frail? OG Lara flipped around while throwing down with friggen wild cats and bears while dual wielding... I can't imagine this new Lara could do such a thing.


Yeah, there's a LOT of ignorance on my part here that I wholly admit, but from what I've seen, and how they advertised the first game in the series reboot, if left a weird taste in my mouth.

I think you missed the point of the reboots then. The whole point of the new series was to show how she came to be the bad ass she was in the original games. Pretty sure she didn't come out the womb doing back flips and bullseye-ing with dual pistols. This, technically, takes place YEARS before Tomb Raider 1. Only problem with that is the timeline of the fact that Modern Lara is running around in 2018 while OG Lara was running around in 1998. I digress. The timeline may be screwed up but the whole concept of the Reboot was "How did Lara get to be the Lara we know and love now?"

 

[PLATINUM7]

Usually I get called a sexist pig for saying such a thing.



Now, to be blunt, I've never actually been in the position to PLAY the newer Tomb Raider games myself, but as someone who grew up with a PS1 and the original 2 Tomb Raider games, this Lara just seems.... I dunno, soo damn frail? OG Lara flipped around while throwing down with friggen wild cats and bears while dual wielding... I can't imagine this new Lara could do such a thing.


Yeah, there's a LOT of ignorance on my part here that I wholly admit, but from what I've seen, and how they advertised the first game in the series reboot, if left a weird taste in my mouth.

Modern Lara is frail in cutscenes but then gones on a brutal killing spree like it's nothing. She still takes on dangerous wildlife (bears, wolves), usually as part of some survival style gameplay inbetween slaughtering countless people.

 

[Impa4Smash]

Usually I get called a sexist pig for saying such a thing.



Now, to be blunt, I've never actually been in the position to PLAY the newer Tomb Raider games myself, but as someone who grew up with a PS1 and the original 2 Tomb Raider games, this Lara just seems.... I dunno, soo damn frail? OG Lara flipped around while throwing down with friggen wild cats and bears while dual wielding... I can't imagine this new Lara could do such a thing.


Yeah, there's a LOT of ignorance on my part here that I wholly admit, but from what I've seen, and how they advertised the first game in the series reboot, if left a weird taste in my mouth.

She becomes more like OG Lara has the trilogy progresses, it's almost like a prequel. How Lara became the Tomb Raider.

But I can understand not liking it or new Lara. It's a very realistic take. Like the DC movies of the Tomb Raider franchise

 

[PLATINUM7]

I think you missed the point of the reboots then. The whole point of the new series was to show how she came to be the bad *** she was in the original games. Pretty sure she didn't come out the womb doing back flips and bullseye-ing with dual pistols. This, technically, takes place YEARS before Tomb Raider 1. Only problem with that is the timeline of the fact that Modern Lara is running around in 2018 while OG Lara was running around in 1998. I digress. The timeline may be screwed up but the whole concept of the Reboot was "How did Lara get to be the Lara we know and love now?"

I don't think the timelines are connected. It's meant to show how Lara becomes the Tomb Raider, but it's a different Lara to the original one. There's some allusions and references to other Tomb Raider series but characters play different roles.

 

[Shroob]

I think you missed the point of the reboots then. The whole point of the new series was to show how she came to be the bad *** she was in the original games. Pretty sure she didn't come out the womb doing back flips and bullseye-ing with dual pistols. This, technically, takes place YEARS before Tomb Raider 1. Only problem with that is the timeline of the fact that Modern Lara is running around in 2018 while OG Lara was running around in 1998. I digress. The timeline may be screwed up but the whole concept of the Reboot was "How did Lara get to be the Lara we know and love now?"

Like I said, I wholly understand there's a lot of ignorance on my part.


But I also don't really find the idea of taking this "HYPER BADASS" character and stripping them down to a kinda pathetic state enjoyable or pleasant to look at personally.

 

[Deleted member]

Slime is just Square’s Gooey rip-off.

I would take Gooey over Slime.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Slime is just Square’s Gooey rip-off.

Not sure if serious or ****post.

 

[Akg0001]

https://youtu.be/iEH5VFG-Q2k

So how can we explain this at 48:06?

Not only that, but we also saw rayquaza in the world of light trailer, but where is he now? And no porky is odd too.

Something is fishy here...

 

[A.G.L.]

You kno

You know, I was going to suggest Neku yesterday. He makes the most sense out of all, coincides with A.G.L. understanding of Square too.
Excuse what's coming: Sora, Sony boy. Geno, bit old for Square. Slime, sure but doesn't TWEWY needs more promotion than DQ?
Plus, I don't think anyone would be mad if Neku joined. Also, in... ohhhhhhh... maan (ok I just realized something but I'll keep it for later).. also, won't he be the rythem rep.. kinda

Edit: Also, Neku looks cooler than any of those 3 (imo).
Edit 2: Nice call on Calling btw. That's one neat piece of music.
Edit 3: The game is Nintendo exclusive too. Unlike KH or DQ.

I do think Neku would be the easier character, but unfortunately he is not the more popular character. He still has a chance thats a for sure, so don't give up hope. It also helps his game is already on the Nintendo Switch. That being said a lot of this depends on will Square want to push for him. They did do it in KH Dream Drop Distance, but unfortunately he will not appear in KH3. Im just not sure if Square will want to push a character who is not a part of their bigger franchises. I would be ok with him being in though, as he would bring some interesting move sets.

 

[Shroob]

Not only that, but we also saw rayquaza in the world of light trailer, but where is he now? And no porky is odd too.

Something is fishy here...

Pretty sure "Rayquaza" never existed as was just another "Ridley's in the clouds."


I've watched the scene where people 'saw' Rayquaza, and all I saw were rocks.

 

[vaanrose]

Usually I get called a sexist pig for saying such a thing.



Now, to be blunt, I've never actually been in the position to PLAY the newer Tomb Raider games myself, but as someone who grew up with a PS1 and the original 2 Tomb Raider games, this Lara just seems.... I dunno, soo damn frail? OG Lara flipped around while throwing down with friggen wild cats and bears while dual wielding... I can't imagine this new Lara could do such a thing.


Yeah, there's a LOT of ignorance on my part here that I wholly admit, but from what I've seen, and how they advertised the first game in the series reboot, if left a weird taste in my mouth.

Temple of Osiris is what a Lara redesign should be. It's a faithful update with more realistic (though still idealized) proportions.

Looking at the two designs on the same model, it's really night and day how much stronger the classic design is. Lara Croft's blue tank and shorts shorts is iconic. It's incredibly rare for a design this simple to be this immediately recognizable, and not using it is just baffling.

 

[GoeGoe]

Slime is just Square’s Gooey rip-off.

I would take Gooey over Slime.

No way. Gooey was cretaed 1995

 

[ChronoKatie]

Not only that, but we also saw rayquaza in the world of light trailer, but where is he now? And no porky is odd too.

Something is fishy here...

Ray was in the WoL trailer? Could you link? I don't recall seeing that at all.

 

[Akg0001]

Pretty sure "Rayquaza" never existed as was just another "Ridley's in the clouds."


I've watched the scene where people 'saw' Rayquaza, and all I saw were rocks.

Lol you are right xD i thought i saw him there wtf...

 

[Shroob]

I don't think more needs to be said.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Weird that Petey got regulated to a Final Smash as well. I thought it was anyway.

Has there been confirmation of Lucas and Ness's Classic mode? I figured Porky would carry over from Brawl at least. Was there any gameplay on the Pokemon either?

Temple of Osiris is what a Lara redesign should be. It's a faithful update with more realistic (though still idealized) proportions.

Looking at the two designs on the same model, it's really night and day how much stronger the classic design is. Lara Croft's blue tank and shorts shorts is iconic. It's incredibly rare for a design this simple to be this immediately recognizable, and not using it is just baffling.

To be completely fair, I agree with you, but the reboot was meant to be more grounded and thus wearing booty shorts in the wooded wilderness seems, well, unrealistic when you think about it. Honestly, if they just ported both those skins and model over to Smash I'd be over the moon with her. That's my favorite Lara model in recent years.

 

[Shroob]

Weird that Petey got regulated to a Final Smash as well. I thought it was anyway.

Has there been confirmation of Lucas and Ness's Classic mode? I figured Porky would carry over from Brawl at least. Was there any gameplay on the Pokemon either?

To be completely fair, I agree with you, but the reboot was meant to be more grounded and thus wearing booty shorts in the wooded wilderness seems, well, unrealistic when you think about it.

Spoiler: Ness

Ness is Master Hand.

 

[Akg0001]

View attachment 179673



I don't think more needs to be said.

I somehow saw this area moving the first time i watched it lol. Sorry for not paying attention

 

[zeldasmash]

Spoiler

So Dracula is Luigi's boss in Classic mode. I guess it's revenge for Death killing him.

 

[vaanrose]

To be completely fair, I agree with you, but the reboot was meant to be more grounded and thus wearing booty shorts in the wooded wilderness seems, well, unrealistic when you think about it. Honestly, if they just ported both those skins and model over to Smash I'd be over the moon with her. That's my favorite Lara model in recent years.

The reboot still commits the cardinal sin of removing all trace of color. People aren't put off by a little aquamarine blue.

 

[UberMadman]

One important thing to factor in when talking about Smash guest characters vs. guest characters in other fighting games is that most other fighting games are fine with kind of just dropping guest characters in without much in the way of supplemental material. Maybe they'll have a stage that corresponds to them, and some unique single player dialogue and interactions that have some throwbacks to where they came from, but not much beyond that. However, Smash is a game about celebrating video game history, so usually including a guest character in Smash translates to also including a unique stage with unique gameplay gimmicks, as much music as can be licensed from the franchise that character represents, (including some original remixes of the music if approved,) an Assist Trophy or two, large amounts of supporting characters from the character's franchise referenced in Trophies/Stickers/Spirits/what have you, and occasionally even a boss fight. With that in mind, incorporating, say, 2B in Tekken is probably less of a legal headache than it would be to incorporate her in Smash.

Take this last part with a grain of salt since it's just my opinion, but I think the real leg up Geno has on the other potential Square Enix characters is that Square Enix clearly does not have as much issue licensing his image to Sakurai as they do with their relevant IPs, but he's still popular enough in the Smash fanbase that he would still make Square a lot of money in royalties if sold as DLC. Yes it's true that Square Enix would likely not gain much of a marketing opportunity out of Geno's inclusion, but unlike most of the other 3rd parties that Nintendo is working with, Square Enix has only been contributing essentially the bare minimum amount of content up until now. We don't even need to talk about Square Enix franchises not yet represented in Smash; including Final Fantasy content other than just Cloud, such as in the form of Spirits, would be a great way to increase awareness for the franchise among Nintendo Switch users, which is an opportunity that you would think they would jump on considering they just recently announced 6 Final Fantasy titles coming to the Switch. The fact that they refuse to capitalize on this fact seems to suggest that they care more for protecting their intellectual property over potential marketing opportunities, so they may not care as much about trying to include Kingdom Hearts or Dragon Quest content in Smash as people think they might.

Does that mean that I think Geno is definitely getting in, or that I think we won't be getting Sora or Erdrick/Slime? Not necessarily. I just wanted to point this out.

 

[dream1ng]

Im not saying that Slime's chances are none, but instead very low. And yes you are correct, those characters are heavily used in their promotion. All of that is true, but its also true that Square does not put regular enemies as their fighting game characters. Again I see where you are coming from and I understand your reasoning. However it does not fit Square's patterns, yes they choose characters that are heavily promoted within their own series. However all these characters are not regular enemies, they are the hero of the story. I just don't see it based on Square's patterns. Please also see NonSpecificGuy post about this.

But again, you're unnecessarily narrowing the parameters. Yes, Square hasn't put regular enemies in fighting games, but the series in question there are Nier or Final Fantasy. Those are precedents for those series. Those series are lead by their protagonists. There's no need to treat Square as a monolith when each series has its own identity and promotional strategy. By that logic, we'd say Nintendo would opt for Pokemon Trainer over Pikachu. For Dragon Quest, historically crossovers have not involved the protagonists as much as Slime, because unlike Nier and Final Fantasy, the promotion focuses more greatly on the generic mascot.

Yes, there's no precedent for Dragon Quest in a fighting game. However, the next best thing is not how Square treats Final Fantasy in a fighting game, but how Square treats Dragon Quest in other crossovers. Don't discard the closest example we have just because it doesn't originate from a fighting game. I know Smash is a fighting game, but Slime is not invalidated by that unless he's seen as infeasible. Especially given how diverse the Smash cast is physiologically when compared to stuff like Tekken and SoulCalibur.

Now I'm not rejecting the possibility of a DQ protagonist, I'm just voicing the case for Slime. If we even end up getting a DQ character, which we absolutely might not.

 

[Shroob]

God I'd love 2B in Smash.


But it's a fraction of a percent of happening so no reason hoping for it.

 

[Calane]

Just tossing this out there again because I see some people still don't know: Erdrick is not the only DQ hero with a name, most others have them too.

DQ4 = Solo / Sofia
DQ5 = Abel
DQ6 = Rek
DQ7 = Arus / Auster

Etc.

As for the topic of Slime being chosen over Erdrick or any other hero due to the series not having a main popular character, that isn't true. Slime is by far the series' most popular monster, but comparing it to Pikachu and the Heroes to the Trainers is simply ridiculous. You see, unlike Pokemon, Dragon Quest isn't about the monsters, it's about the heroes and their journeys. Most people here haven't played the main series games I presume, but if you did, you'd realize that Slime isn't all that important in the main games. Its mostly just an enemy encounter, and an incredibly easy one at that.

Unlike Pokemon, the Heroes, the adventures they go on, and their stories are the focus of DQ. Not the monsters they fight along the way. Putting in a Slime to represent the main series Dragon Quest games as a whole would be a terrible decision, as they really only represent the monsters (and the series isn't about them) and it completely ignores the side of the franchise that actually matters most. You know, the actual characters and stories that make the series what it is. Slime is more recognizable, but Erdrick captures the heart of DQ better than any generic enemy could. Slime may be the mascot, but its not what the series is about. It would honestly serve its purpose just as well being in the background of a stage or even being the series symbol, which both honestly make more sense for it than being a playable fighter.

I've posted this a couple times, but people seem to think that the Heroes aren't popular and that they must use Slime due to that "fact". Well, that actually isn't true, the Heroes are popular, and this popularity poll from 2010 proves it:https://nintendoeverything.com/japa...choose-their-favorite-game-monster-character/

Slime is the most popular monster, but Erdrick is the most popular character. And while this poll thing is rather old, I'm willing to bet Erdrick is still the series' most popular hero.

I feel like if they're going to represent the series right, the best thing to do is to include a playable hero, and showcase the series' various monsters and such via a stage. It'd be the best way to cover all the bases and do the series (the main series, the ones that should be represented before any spin-offs) the most justice possible.

Representing DQ with a playable Slime just misrepresents the series and what it's actually about. Not only that, but it would also serve to fuel the misconception that the series has no characters and is mostly about a standard enemy without much else to offer.

Sorry for the rant, but I just don't think Slime is the right choice to represent DQ as a whole. At least, not in Smash.

 

[Yonder]

Neku would be cool and completely from left field. I support it.

Neku and Goku are my most wanted atm so...I'd approve.

 

[ChronoKatie]

Gosh, everything is looking stellar. I think my single disappointment is the really lackluster variety of bosses. That and not having Break the Targets back, but that was always unlikely.

But dang, there was a lot of potential with the boss fights.

Spoiler

Porky, Rayquazza, Duon, Eggman, Balder, Kraid, a Pikmin fight, modern Andross. I really wish WoL had more selections such as these. I'm a weirdo who REALLY enjoys the boss fights. Boss rush mode was one of my faves in Brawl.

 

[Shroob]

The best part about Erdrick getting in is going to be the initial wave of "GOKU/GOHAN?!" from the reaction videos.


The minute people see the black, spiky hair and Toriyama face, that's instantly where their mind is going to go.

 

[dream1ng]

Just tossing this out there again because I see some people still don't know: Erdrick is not the only DQ hero with a name, most others have them too.

DQ4 = Solo / Sofia
DQ5 = Abel
DQ6 = Rek
DQ7 = Arus / Auster

Etc.

As for the topic of Slime being chosen over Erdrick or any other hero due to the series not having a main popular character, that isn't true. Slime is by far the series' most popular monster, but comparing it to Pikachu and the Heroes to the Trainers is simply ridiculous. You see, unlike Pokemon, Dragon Quest isn't about the monsters, it's about the heroes and their journeys. Most people here haven't played the main series games I presume, but if you did, you'd realize that Slime really isn't all that important in the main games. Its mostly just an enemy encounter, and an incredibly easy one at that.

Unlike Pokemon, the Heroes, the adventures they go on, and their stories are the focus of DQ. Not the monsters they fight along the way. Putting in a Slime to represent the main series Dragon Quest games as a whole would be a terrible decision, as they really only represent the monsters (and the series isn't about them) and it completely ignores the side of the franchise that actually matters most. You know, the actual characters and stories that make the series what it is. Slime is more recognizable, but Erdrick captures the heart of DQ better than any generic enemy could. Slime may be the mascot, but its not what the series is about. It would honestly serve its purpose just as well being in the background of a stage or even being the series symbol, which both honestly make more sense for it than being a playable fighter.

I've posted this a couple times, but people seem to think that the Heroes aren't popular and that they must use Slime due to that "fact". Well, that actually isn't true, the Heroes are popular, and this popularity poll from 2010 proves it:https://nintendoeverything.com/japa...choose-their-favorite-game-monster-character/

Slime is the most popular monster, but Erdrick is the most popular character. And while this poll thing is rather old, I'm willing to bet Erdrick is still the series' most popular hero.

I feel like if they're going to represent the series right, the best thing to do is to include a playable Hero, and showcase the series' various monsters and such via a stage. It'd be the best way to cover all the bases and do the series (the main series, the ones that should be represented before any spin-offs) the most justice possible.

Representing DQ with a playable Slime just misrepresents the series and what it's actually about. Not only that, but it would also serve to fuel the misconception that the series has no characters and is mostly about a standard enemy without much else to offer.

Sorry for the rant, but I just don't think Slime is the right choice to represent DQ as a whole. At least, not in Smash.

Square Enix chooses Slime to act as mascot for the series, all Smash does is reflect the big names of series within.

If Slime is a poor representation of Dragon Quest, the responsibility lies with the people who put it in the position to act as its face.

 

[StellerRJay]

I hope the wait for the first DLC character isn't too long. Assuming the Square Enix character is the first one, I just want to hurry up and know who it ends up being already.

Geez, the suspense! My poor soul~

 

[KarneraMythos]

2B is awesome but I can't see Nintendo choosing her when she's yet to make an appearance on any Nintendo platform nor carries the prestige of many alternatives.

A-ha, you say this, but you also need to consider 2B coinciding with NieR: Automata getting a port on the Switch. In which case, it's still very slim yet still possible. By those conditions, I am curious at how we can judge her regarding her game's music composer.

 

[Calane]

Square Enix chooses Slime to act as mascot for the series, all Smash does is reflect the big names of series within.

If Slime is a poor representation of Dragon Quest, the responsibility lies with the people who put it in the position to act as its face.

It's really only the "face" due to being a cute and memorable monster. They are not that important to the main series itself, which is why I feel it'd be better represented with Erdrick, the series' most popular protagonist.