Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DGAMER]

I would like to state something I noticed concerning Mario character representation in Smash 4, and how I use it to predict the Mario characters in Smash 5.

In Smash 64, we got the main franchise represented with Mario/Luigi, and 2 sub-franchises with one character each. (Yoshi and DK)

In Melee, the main franchise was expanded with the addition of Peach, Bowser, and Dr. Mario. No newcomers for any sub franchises. (Yoshi and DK)

In Brawl, Dr. Mario was cut, but the sub franchises got brand new things. (DK was joined by Diddy Kong, and Wario brought a whole new subfranchise.)

In Smash 4, the sub franchises stayed exactly the same again (Yoshi, DK, Diddy and Wario) but the main franchise got newcomers along with the return of Dr Mario. (Rosalina and Bowser Jr.

Did you notice the pattern? In every Smash game after 64, they always added 2 newcommers from Mario related franchises, alternating between the Main Franchise and SubFranchises. (Peach/Bowser for main in Melee, Diddy/Wario for sub in Brawl, and Rosa/Bowser JR for main in Smash 4.) (Dr Mario also appeared to alternate between entries.)

While patterns don't necessarily mean anything, if the pattern is followed, Smash Switch would have two newcomers for franchises that are related to Mario, but not exactly part of the core Mario games. I belive that the pattern may add a bit more to the idea of a DK newcomer (King K Rool has higher chances imo) and a Wario newcomer (Ashley would be my choice). This can also hurt some characters chances like Daisy/Waluigi or even Captain Toad if they don't consider the CT games to be a franchise.

Found it interesting. Let see what you think.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Well that's nice to see. I guess Verlisify is not unfairly seen to be as toxic in this community.

It will be interesting what the reveal is, whether it be a Gen 8 mon or Zeraora. Whether that has much baring on Smash I think it is hard to tell at this stage. I feel that any new Pokémon newcomers will be some of the hardest to call for this game.

I think the cool thing about Pokemon newcomers this time around is that there's a lot of great options rather than there not being much of a standout option. There's so many good new Pokemon to choose from in gen 7. This is probably the most excited I've been for Pokemon character reveals because I can't wait to see which of the several great options they went with.

 

[Pakky]

Well that's nice to see. I guess Verlisify is not unfairly seen to be as toxic in this community.

It will be interesting what the reveal is, whether it be a Gen 8 mon or Zeraora. Whether that has much baring on Smash I think it is hard to tell at this stage. I feel that any new Pokémon newcomers will be some of the hardest to call for this game.

Personally, I like the guy.

On the pokemon side of things, Zeraora could be a big dual gen thing like Zygarde was but its a bit too early to tell.

 

[Danpal65]

Personally, I like the guy.

On the pokemon side of things, Zeraora could be a big dual gen thing like Zygarde was but its a bit too early to tell.

Me too. He makes some very entertaining and interesting content.

I think it could turn out that way. I mean the design does not really come across as being an insignificant character. That being said, not much was done with Volcanion in X&Y and he seemed pretty cool being a fire/water type Pokémon.

Edit: Woot page 800!

 

[TheLastJinjo]

This was still pretty aggressive, and I'm not trying to compare Cranky to another character. I was speaking about Cranky himself, pointing out that he has literally just been a support character since he was in the game up until Tropical Freeze. To compare him to another character, Dixie and K. Rool are both valid characters to bring up here. Dixie was co-main in one game, the lead in another. She also appears in Tropical Freeze at the same level as Cranky. And now with K. Rool, as I said in my previous post, was the main boss of the entire franchise for a long time. I'm not saying nor did I ever say Cranky isn't happening, I'm just trying to add to the discussion and trying to point out why he may not be as likely as another comparable character from the same region of Nintendo.

You are talking about times long since past. If there's any reason to add Donkey Kong newcomers, it's because Donkey Kong has actually been active and popular in the 2014-2016 Era. The point I'm making is that Cranky Kong being playable in Tropical Freeze is merely a boost in his merit as a candidate and prior to that, he was the third most attendant character of the series. He was not "Just some dumb old geezer that complained all the time!"

I'm frustrated because I think you're idea of what makes a character matter is grossly misguided. You seem to only be concerned with whether a character was playable or if they were a villain. And no other factors apply.

There ARE other factors, such as a character's prominence in recent installments. There's also which character has the most potential as a unique factor. And yes, popularity is also another factor which is where King K. Rool shines, however, for all we know, Cranky may very well be more popular than King K. Rool. In fact it's very likely that he is. But, we don't have any access to the statistics of the official ballot.

King K. Rool being a villain isn't saying much when he's been booted as such in recent Donkey Kong games. It's a way more out of place addition to the roster than Cranky who continues to be a big part of the games.

Being a villain doesn't automatically make you a better candidate and it certainly doesn't make you more important. Being playable doesn't either. There are plenty of villains like Andross or Dark Matter and plenty of playable characters like Toad and Waddle Dee, that aren't just automatically "more important".

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

You are talking about times long since past. If there's any reason to add Donkey Kong newcomers, it's because Donkey Kong has actually been active and popular in the 2014-2016 Era. The point I'm making is that Cranky Kong being playable in Tropical Freeze is merely a boost in his merit as a candidate and prior to that, he was the third most attendant character of the series. He was not "Just some dumb old geezer that complained all the time!"

I'm frustrated because I think you're idea of what makes a character matter is grossly misguided. You seem to only be concerned with whether a character was playable or if they were a villain. And no other factors apply.

There ARE other factors, such as a character's prominence in recent installments. There's also which character has the most potential as a unique factor. And yes, popularity is also another factor which is where King K. Rool shines, however, for all we know, Cranky may very well be more popular than King K. Rool. In fact it's very likely that he is. But, we don't have any access to the statistics of the official ballot.

King K. Rool being a villain isn't saying much when he's been booted as such in recent Donkey Kong games. It's a way more out of place addition to the roster than Cranky who continues to be a big part of the games.

Being a villain doesn't automatically make you a better candidate and it certainly doesn't make you more important. Being playable doesn't either. There are plenty of villains like Andross or Dark Matter and plenty of playable characters like Toad and Waddle Dee, that aren't just automatically "more important".

Well you're still making harsh assumptions on my comments. I never said Cranky isn't important, or that being playable is the only thing that mattered. I'm pointing out that those appearances by those characters were more impactful to the games. Yes, Cranky is a recurring character who has been around for a long time, and just recently got his debut as a playable character. Cranky is a very recognizable character who they clearly want present in Donkey Kong games, and he certainly has his merits to be a playable character. But just like he has his merits, other characters have their own merits that I see as, in my opinion, better.

I have just been saying that I see these other characters as more likely options for the reasons I listed.

Sorry you disagree with me. But all I've done is state my opinion and you've just tried to call my opinion wrong this whole time, so I'm finished with this discussion that is going nowhere.

 

[IronTed]

Personally, I like the guy.

On the pokemon side of things, Zeraora could be a big dual gen thing like Zygarde was but its a bit too early to tell.

Zygarde wasn't really a big deal though. He had like no role in XY and a pretty irrelevant one in gen 7. For Zeraora's sake, let's hope it gets better treatment.

I think the cool thing about Pokemon newcomers this time around is that there's a lot of great options rather than there not being much of a standout option. There's so many good new Pokemon to choose from in gen 7. This is probably the most excited I've been for Pokemon character reveals because I can't wait to see which of the several great options they went with.

During the 3DS/Wii U speculation days, what Pokemon was considered the likeliest? Because I agree, this time around it seems like it can go multiple ways

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Zygarde wasn't really a big deal though. He had like no role in XY and a pretty irrelevant one in gen 7. For Zeraora's sake, let's hope it gets better treatment.



During the 3DS/Wii U speculation days, what Pokemon was considered the likeliest? Because I agree, this time around it seems like it can go multiple ways

I honestly don't remember who the highly speculated Pokemon were for Smash 4. I think the the Pokemon Trainer breakup made it a little harder to speculate, too. I don't recall Greninja being brought up much, but that's because there were special arrangements made for him that we didn't know of. This game falls in a weirder spot with Pokemon than Smash 4 did, though, as the most recent Pokemon games were gen 7 and we still know nothing of gen 8. While Greninja wasn't necessarily decided at the start of development, he was still designed early enough for X&Y to be out for a year before Smash. This game doesn't have that luxury since it's coming out in 2018. So Gen 7 is fairly clearly the way to go, unless they want to jump back in time for whatever reason.

EDIT: I really like the idea of a UB or Zeraora personally. Zeraora is just a really well designed legendary imo, and Ultra Beasts were such a big deal in Sun and Moon. Adding one of those to Smash would also add a new kind of pokemon to the game that isn't a standard pokemon or a legendary pokemon. The design space is just so broad here, I can't wait at all to see what we get.

 

[IronTed]

I honestly don't remember who the highly speculated Pokemon were for Smash 4. I think the the Pokemon Trainer breakup made it a little harder to speculate, too. I don't recall Greninja being brought up much, but that's because there were special arrangements made for him that we didn't know of. This game falls in a weirder spot with Pokemon than Smash 4 did, though, as the most recent Pokemon games were gen 7 and we still know nothing of gen 8. While Greninja wasn't necessarily decided at the start of development, he was still designed early enough for X&Y to be out for a year before Smash. This game doesn't have that luxury since it's coming out in 2018. So Gen 7 is fairly clearly the way to go, unless they want to jump back in time for whatever reason.

EDIT: I really like the idea of a UB or Zeraora personally. Zeraora is just a really well designed legendary imo, and Ultra Beasts were such a big deal in Sun and Moon. Adding one of those to Smash would also add a new kind of pokemon to the game that isn't a standard pokemon or a legendary pokemon. The design space is just so broad here, I can't wait at all to see what we get.

Agreed. An Ultra Beast newcomer would be very cool. Poipole and Buzwole have already been discussed, but I hope they go out of the box this time. After so many starter newcomers, something different seems like a good idea.

Personally though, no gen 7 pokemon has really spoken to me one way or the other, so I have an open mind to the likes of Decidueye and Mimikyu.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Agreed. An Ultra Beast newcomer would be very cool. Poipole and Buzwole have already been discussed, but I hope they go out of the box this time. After so many starter newcomers, something different seems like a good idea.

Personally though, no gen 7 pokemon has really spoken to me one way or the other, so I have an open mind to the likes of Decidueye and Mimikyu.

I like the idea of Poipole and Nihilego. Nihilego is by far the most prominent UB in S/M before Poipole appeared in USUM, and it played a pretty integral role in the plot of the game. Not sure at all how it'd work as a character though. Buzzwole really isn't my cup of tea, but a lot of people around here like it, so I'd be happy for the rest of you if it actually happened

 

[IronTed]

I like the idea of Poipole and Nihilego. Nihilego is by far the most prominent UB in S/M before Poipole appeared in USUM, and it played a pretty integral role in the plot of the game. Not sure at all how it'd work as a character though. Buzzwole really isn't my cup of tea, but a lot of people around here like it, so I'd be happy for the rest of you if it actually happened

Nihilego would definitely be the likeliest choice, but I actually prefer Pheromosa to Buzwole. Granted, I would take Celesteela or Xurkitree (yes I'm weird) over them, but I doubt they'd get in.

A few of these guys should definitely get in as Pokeballs though. Guzzlord in particular is something I think would make a fun addition.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Nihilego would definitely be the likeliest choice, but I actually prefer Pheromosa to Buzwole. Granted, I would take Celesteela or Xurkitree (yes I'm weird) over them, but I doubt they'd get in.

A few of these guys should definitely get in as Pokeballs though. Guzzlord in particular is something I think would make a fun addition.

Guzzlord in HD makes me sweat. That thing is terrifying, to say the least.

 

[-crump-]

I was just thinking Naganadel would make a really interesting choice. It's design is so unique and different from every other Pokemon we have on the roster currently, which is something I like to see from Pokemon reps. I think it would be a good nod to UBs in general with how strange and foreign they look. Add in some cool dragon abilities as well, and you have a kick-ass newcomer.

...and on a more biased level, Poison happens to be my favorite Pokemon type.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I was just thinking Naganadel would make a really interesting choice. It's design is so unique and different from every other Pokemon we have on the roster currently, which is something I like to see from Pokemon reps. I think it would be a good nod to UBs in general with how strange and foreign they look. Add in some cool dragon abilities as well, and you have a kick-*** newcomer.

...and on a more biased level, Poison happens to be my favorite Pokemon type.

I had thought about Naganadel, but I think it's decently less prominent than Poipole. Also, isn't it always flying? I wonder how they'd make it work in a way that low moves, such as down tilts, could hit it without making the character weird. I see that same issue with Nihileho, who is my favorite UB. I think you could at least make it drag close to the ground, but I just wonder if that would be too out of character to be stuck down there. Poipole could at least look natural moving close to the ground.

 

[Sonic Poke]

During the 3DS/Wii U speculation days, what Pokemon was considered the likeliest? Because I agree, this time around it seems like it can go multiple ways

Most people (me included) didn't expect a pokemon newcomer. We all expected The return of Mewtwo because of the combination of promotion of Pokémon the Movie: Genesect and the Legend Awakened with wishful thinking. At the end of the day we were not entirely wrong.

The ones who did expect a newcomer were saying it should be Zoroark. I am kind of sad they were wrong though. Zoroark would be amazing. But then I remember we got Greninja and I get happy again.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I

Good logical and precise post. I will proceed to nitpick one of your points to prove you wrong!!!

We know everything that will happen for Smash 5. Post debunked, disconfirmed, discarded. Get dunked on, bro.

Forgot about Luigi.

But Luigi is a ***** and no one cares about Luigi.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I

Forgot about Luigi. But Luigi is a ***** and no one cares about Luigi.

It's things like this that prevent Luigi from ever being #1... FeelsLuigiMan

 

[IronTed]

I was just thinking Naganadel would make a really interesting choice. It's design is so unique and different from every other Pokemon we have on the roster currently, which is something I like to see from Pokemon reps. I think it would be a good nod to UBs in general with how strange and foreign they look. Add in some cool dragon abilities as well, and you have a kick-*** newcomer.

...and on a more biased level, Poison happens to be my favorite Pokemon type.

Naganadel would be amazing. I would love to see how they would implement a character who is constantly flying. I would definitely take that over Poipole.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

By giving both Jr. and each Koopaling one alt you can please people who want to both play as Jr., or Larry, or Lemmy etc. It's better than just pleasing 2 people who want to both be Jr..

If more than 2 people want to be the same character, well hopefully you don't come to that point.

That's a problem that some of the other characters have as well. Only four of the eight players can use male Robin, while the other four are stuck with female Robin, no matter what.

 

[ErenJager]

I like the idea of Zeraora, Plasma Fist & Volt Absorb would be a neat mechanic.

Bring me my yellow cat Lucario, I wish to box him.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Here's a list of gen 7 Pokemon that I think would all make great additions, in no particular order:

-Decidueye
-Incineroar
-Mimikyu
-Bewear
-Poipole
-Zeraora
-Marshadow
-Lycanroc in any form

I think every one of those Pokemon has something going for it. Some have more than others, obviously, but all of these Pokemon would make excellent fighters.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Anything happen in the past 60 pages in terms of news? Anything from some dev's twitter feed or anything like that?
I'm quite impressed by the capacity of people to essentially daydream in the absence of being given anything to work with.

 

[PLATINUM7]

That's a problem that some of the other characters have as well. Only four of the eight players can use male Robin, while the other four are stuck with female Robin, no matter what.

It's a small sacrifice because how often are 8 people all going to want to be Male Robin or all want to be Female Robin at the same time. At least 2 people (up to 4 here) can still be the same character. It's not Male Robin having 8 options because he's the default and female having only one, like what you suggested with 8 Jr. options but only 1 option for each koopaling.

 

[IronTed]

Do people expect multiple Pokemon reps this time, either in terms of base roster or DLC?

I expect a gen 8 Pokemon as DLC down the road. Granted, if gen 8 comes out this year, then it could be more of a toss up.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It's a small sacrifice because how often are 8 people all going to want to be Male Robin or all want to be Female Robin at the same time. At least 2 people (up to 4 here) can still be the same character. It's not Male Robin having 8 options because he's the default and female having only one, like what you suggested with 8 Jr. options but only 1 option for each koopaling.

At least in Robin's case, you only have two genders to choose from, so it would be completely possible to give Robin 16 color slots, with 8 of them for male Robin, while the other 8 are for female Robin.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Do people expect multiple Pokemon reps this time, either in terms of base roster or DLC?

I expect a gen 8 Pokemon as DLC down the road. Granted, if gen 8 comes out this year, then it could be more of a toss up.

I certainly don't expect more than one. Especially if we get every Pokemon back from Smash 4, which would be ideal. I can't say I'd be upset if we got more than one, though.

 

[PLATINUM7]

At least in Robin's case, you only have two genders to choose from, so it would be completely possible to give Robin 16 color slots, with 8 of them for male Robin, while the other 8 are for female Robin.

I just think at the very least, 2 options for Jr. and 2 options for each Koopaling means that each character can be played by 2 people at the same time.

I feel this would be fair since each Koopaling is distinct. It's not choose Jr. or Koopaling like when choosing male or female Robin. It's choose Jr., Larry, Lemmy, Iggy, Wendy, Morton, Roy or Ludwig.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So...

What do you guys think of Lara Croft's chances?

 

[Hinata]

So...

What do you guys think of Lara Croft's chances?

Even with people like Cloud in the game now, Lara Croft feels like a choice that's way too "out there".

 

[Shadow Novus]

So...

What do you guys think of Lara Croft's chances?

Nonexistent?

 

[Troykv]

This is a good discussion video...I'd like to know people's thoughts on this. Discussion by @PushDustIn and NantenJex

I think people don't want to limit themselves to the 2014-2016 age because that were... barren days... the most notable games from that period have already confirmed their presence in Smash Bros (Splatoon, BoTW, FE:Fates)... except maybe Star Fox Zero and Xenoblade X.

 

[Cynthwave]

So...

What do you guys think of Lara Croft's chances?

Lara certainly is a possibility, she certainly has all-star status within gaming history, certainly being one of the most iconic female characters of all time. However I feel she would be understated in terms of uniqueness with Bayo and ZSS being around sorta occupying the same niche of gunslinger. Though she does have unique stuff of her own.
EDIT: Wow i said certainly A LOT

 

[Deleted member]

So...

What do you guys think of Lara Croft's chances?

Meh, i feel a Dragon Quest character is more likely if Square were to get another character.

 

[Deleted member]

You know, the Smash Bros. Switch hype never ends. I want information so bad.
I love Sakurai.

Assist Trophies? Okay. Here's one idea I had for one of my favorite characters that'd literally never get on the main roster.

Spoiler

Name: Merric
Game(s): Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light, Mystery of the Emblem, Shadow Dragon, and New Mystery of the Emblem (Marth's saga)
Attack: Excalibur

Description: Merric is Marth's childhood friend, and as such, the two are incredibly close, so Merric has decided to offer his help in the form of an Assist Trophy! Upon being summoned, he'll take out his legendary wind tome, Excalibur, and move his hand over its cover while closing his eyes. After a moment, he'll open his eyes as his hands and the tome start to give off a mystical green glow. Merric then shoots out sharp, crescent-shaped razor winds directly at the nearest opponent.

However, there's an added effect. In its games of origin, Merric's Excalibur spell does effective damage against airborne opponents, and this would be reflected in Smash. If the target is in the air while being struck by Excalibur, they will not only take three times the normal amount of damage they'd have taken otherwise, but they will also be sent rocketing back toward the ground. Hit the foe into the air and let Merric take care of the rest!

Upon finishing his barrage (roughly seven shots in semi-quick succession, roughly the same speed as Kat and Ana's cross slashes), Merric tucks away his tome, takes a bow, and disappears.

I am actually in the process of making a full-on moveset for him for fun, but this'll do for now.

Dang it Opossum, the FEH and intelligence is strong with you.
Amazing move-set!
Can you make a Spring Man move-set for me please or nah?
I love your move-sets!

Forgot about Luigi.

But Luigi is a ***** and no one cares about Luigi.

Venus of The Desert Bloom Waluigi confirmed.
Show me your moves.

 

[Radical Bones]

Man I wish that Midna and Wolf Link got into Smash in the Brawl days. I feel like their chance is gone now but it would have been so cool.

 

[DraginHikari]

I would vastly prefer an XBC2 character, but if we got a character from X, I would prefer it to be Elma, considering she is literally the only character from that game I can remember.

It would more or less have to be Elma frankly. Though I do believe XBX did certain aspects better then the original XB and even XB2 it did suffer in regards to characterization and it's story was kind of all over the place at times. Most of the NPC that could join your party had very little characteristics and were basically there to fill in tropes. Elma was the only one who had much impact because she actually had characterization that didn't evolve a simple few trope characters points and leaving it at that.

Frankly Elma is far more the main character of XBX's story then the avatar you play as.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Donkey Kong Country is NOT a sub-series to Mario, please stop that ****.

 

[SoccerStar9001]

So...

What do you guys think of Lara Croft's chances?

Did she even have an appearance on a Nintendo system?

 

[Cynthwave]

Did she even have an appearance on a Nintendo system?

She has had more than one actually

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Donkey Kong Country is NOT a sub-series to Mario, please stop that ****.

''Mario is introduced in a game called Donkey Kong. Somehow he's not the spin-off. "

That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.