Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Radical Bones]

I'm not sure how old some of the 'Lara isn't iconic enough" crowd are but as someone who was 7-8 when the first Tomb Raider came out I can guarantee she was and still is a big deal.

Comparing her to Peach even now sounds kinda silly IMO.

 

[vaanrose]

Using movies as a form of proving iconicness is a very poor point. By that logic she is FAR more iconic than Mario cause he's only had one movie. Peach is non existent in iconicness because she isn't in that movie. Also, magazine covers? Literally, anytime a new game that's worth anything at all the vg magazines are FLOODED with pictures of the hottest new game. Yep, that's happened with Tomb Raider for sure. What about all the years that Samus has been on the front covers of magazines for Metroid, Metroid 2, Super, Prime trilogy, fusion, Other M, Samus Returns? Do those not count? Hell Gaminformers 300th issue from this month had a Metroid variant despite there being no Metroid article in the issue. People make out Lara to be a much bigger deal than she really is.

She's popular, yeah, she's iconic probably, but calling her one of the most iconic videogame characters ever is uh, really out there. You could hold up a picture of her to someone alongside Peach and I'm sure the ratio would lean, easily, in Peach's favor. May have a good 50/50 split or even in favor of Lara against Samus but I'm not sure if it would be that huge of a difference. Smash Bros. alone has helped boost Samus's popularity. Lara isn't overrated by any means. Underrated even. But she's not as HUGE as people like to make her out to be. At all.

She got a movie because she was already popular, that's the point. The movie itself wasn't even that good, but it succeeded on the strength of the IP and helped make Jolie a household name. And yes, the movie re-enforced her popularity. Movies tend to do that. Had the movie been a Metroid movie instead, it would've made Samus bigger, too.

I don't doubt for a second a lot of people would recognize Princess Peach. I definitely think more people would recognize Peach than the reboot Lara. But Princess Peach hasn't appeared on the cover of Entertainment Weekly. And not the Jolie version either, the original game model in all its low resolution glory. That's the point I was making about magazine covers. Yes, most of them are gaming covers targeted at people who already know who she is. But she crossed over into mainstream media. People who've never touched a video game in their life know who Lara Croft is. (And for the record, I have no idea how many covers Samus or any other character has been on. It's not really something people track. Lara Croft's appearances were actually kept track of by Crystal Dynamics, that's the only reason I had a figure to give.)

The movie posters for the new film proudly declare "Alicia Vikander IS Lara Croft", the way you might see "Daniel Craig IS James Bond." The character shares the billing with the actor playing her. That's name recognition.

Lara Croft was number 17 on Entertainment Weekly's top 100 characters from 1990-2010. The only other game characters on the entire list were Kratos and Nathan Drake, who had to share spot 93, and Master Chief, who made it to 54. I'm not saying they're the end-all be-all authority on that kind of thing, because it's just dumb check-out aisle drivel. But they're a huge publication specifically targeted at the mainstream, and she made it all the way to 17 despite it being seven years since the last movie at the time of publication.

And as for Mario, it plays to just how iconic he is that he doesn't even need three big successful Hollywood movies for everyone in the world to recognize his mustache.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The reason Lara was and is so big as a female protagonist is that she was the first one front and center in her game being obviously a female character.

Peach was there, yes and very feminine, but a majority of the characterization we now have for Peach happened after Lara Croft.

Zelda was as well but she never took much center stage in her tales until the 64 era where her role began to diversify and increase.

Samus was a precursor but she was hidden by androgynous armor to the point it wasn't until Smash that a mass amount of people even knew she was a female character outside of the die-hards.

Chun Li, Cammy and Sonya Blade were great precursors as well and really paved way for female characters in fighting games, but Ryu and Liu Kung/Scorpion/Sub Zero overshadowed them being the poster boys for their franchises.

Lara was an un-apologetically feminine female lead in a video game doing things that only dude heroes did before. She was shooting, she was climbing, she was smart, and sassy.

That played a major part in her blow up. Not just the fact she was a sex symbol.

Let these gifs of Alicia Vikander tell a tale of her impact (Keep in mind she's talking about being 10 years old at the time):

In this very same interview another critically acclaimed actress in Margot Robbie goes ''Oh I'm so excited! I love Tomb Raider."

Don't underestimate the importance and appeal of Lara Croft.

Her main hurdle truly is her guns and the fact there's a ton of demand for a ton of 3rd parties at the moment.

I have no reason to further my argument to be honest. But I don't see how two actresses and a few movies incorporates her into being the MOST iconic female character in video games. They're people. People like stuff. Why is it that if an actress says it it's immediately more correct? I'm not at all arguing that she isn't popular, or iconic even, I never said that. I'm just saying MOST iconic is reaching. Being absent through the VG Renaissance and constantly having a spotty track record of not only quality but being relevant in general does not, in my mind, incorporate her as an industry icon at the height you are making her out to be. Samus may not have had a game every single year like Lara but the games that did come out were a labor of love. A work of art. Games that will stand the test of time for, most likely, the rest of history. That kept her relevant for as long as I can remember. Lara dipped out ofof popularity after the 3rd game, arguably after the first, and just recently received a resurgence. And Peach only receiving character after Lara? Super Mario RPG technically came out earlier that year which advanced her character quite a bit. More so, probably, than Lara who's character back then advanced to Rich Sexy British Adventurer.

For the millionth time I'm not arguing whether she's iconic or not. Just that she's not THE most iconic.

I'm not sure how old some of the 'Lara isn't iconic enough" crowd are but as someone who was 7-8 when the first Tomb Raider came out I can guarantee she was and still is a big deal.

Comparing her to Peach even now sounds kinda silly IMO.

Well, there ya go. Maybe it's because I grew up in a timeframe where she was almost entirely irrelevant. Which would be from the early 2000's to 2013. I may have heard of Lara from passing bys in game stores or something but she never mattered to anyone I ever talked to growing up until 2013. Peach was ****ing everywhere while I was growing up. And Samus? Whoo boy. I couldn't go a step in any direction in Walmart, GameStop, or, Movie Gallery (deep cut) without seeing her all over the damned place with Smash, Metroid Prime, Fusion, Prime 2, Zero Mission, Prime 3, and Prime Hunters constantly littering gaming magazines and addorning store shelves. Pretty sure that's the same way you guys feel about Lara.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Using movies as a form of proving iconicness is a very poor point. By that logic she is FAR more iconic than Mario cause he's only had one movie. Peach is non existent in iconicness because she isn't in that movie. Also, magazine covers? Literally, anytime a new game that's worth anything at all the vg magazines are FLOODED with pictures of the hottest new game. Yep, that's happened with Tomb Raider for sure. What about all the years that Samus has been on the front covers of magazines for Metroid, Metroid 2, Super, Prime trilogy, fusion, Other M, Samus Returns? Do those not count? Hell Gaminformers 300th issue from this month had a Metroid variant despite there being no Metroid article in the issue. People make out Lara to be a much bigger deal than she really is.

She's popular, yeah, she's iconic probably, but calling her one of the most iconic videogame characters ever is uh, really out there. You could hold up a picture of her to someone alongside Peach and I'm sure the ratio would lean, easily, in Peach's favor. May have a good 50/50 split or even in favor of Lara against Samus but I'm not sure if it would be that huge of a difference. Smash Bros. alone has helped boost Samus's popularity. Lara isn't overrated by any means. Underrated even. But she's not as HUGE as people like to make her out to be. At all.

I'm sure there would be more Mario movies than Tomb Raider movies if Nintendo allowed it. No one is saying a character isn't iconic if they haven't been in a movie. Being in movies doesn't instantly make you more iconic than characters who aren't, but it sure as **** helps when each of those movies make hundreds of millions of dollars. And the main reason those movies sold so well in the first place is because of how popular the franchise is.

Lara Croft has the world record for the most magazine covers for a video game character. She's also been on many non video game magazine covers, and as far as I know Samus never has. Lara Croft actually has many Guinness World Records, including "Most Successful Video Game Heroine" and "Most Recognizable Female Character in a Video Game". This article goes over this and points out several other things that make her iconic. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fi...der-magazine-covers-video-game-character/amp/

Even if it's true that Lara is less iconic than Peach it doesn't mean a damn thing, she's still really damn iconic. It's like saying Sonic isn't that iconic, because more people recognize Mario. She's definitely more iconic than Samus; the Tomb Raider series has sold more than both the Metroid and Smash Bros. series combined.

Fun Fact: Lara Croft has a street named after her.

I don't think she'll be in Smash, but you are really underselling her iconic status. I feel like people here are so immersed in Nintendo history that they tend to overlook how prominent characters outside of Nintendo have been throughout history.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Blegh, I'm just gonna drop this because I'm a stubborn son of a ***** and there's no way any of you are gonna change my mind.

I'm sure there would be more Mario movies than Tomb Raider movies if Nintendo allowed it. No one is saying a character isn't iconic if they haven't been in a movie. Being in movies doesn't instantly make you more iconic than characters who aren't, but it sure as **** helps when each of those movies make hundreds of millions of dollars. And the main reason those movies sold so well in the first place is because of how popular the franchise is.

Lara Croft has the world record for the most magazine covers for a video game character. She's also been on many non video game magazine covers, and as far as I know Samus never has. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fi...der-magazine-covers-video-game-character/amp/

Even if it's true that Lara is less iconic than Peach it doesn't mean a damn thing, she's still really damn iconic. It's like saying Sonic isn't that iconic, because more people recognize Mario. She's definitely more iconic than Samus; the Tomb Raider series has sold more than both the Metroid and Smash Bros. series combined.

Fun Fact: Lara Croft has a street named after her.

I don't think she'll be in Smash, but you are really underselling her iconic status. I feel like people here are so immersed in Nintendo history that they tend to overlook how prominent characters outside of Nintendo have been throughout history.

Dude... I grew up on Playstation AND Nintendo. I missed out on Sega and Xbox (mostly) but that was it...

Just cause I don't think Lara Croft is the most important, most iconic female character in VG history doesn't mean I ignore characters outside Nintendo...

 

[Superyoshiom]

It’s kind of a shame of how every character suggestion sparks debate, but at the time, it’s indredibly interesting.

Back even with smash 4, you’d have characters who some considered “shoe-ins” like Mega Man and Little MAC, but now everything is up in the air. With our only real A-List Nintendo character revealed from the start with Inkling, even characters that we expect like Spring Man, Rex and Pyra, Decidueye, and Bandanna Dee can have at least a page of debate on whether or not they’d be in the game.

It really gives this game an air of mystery that’s both frightening and exciting. I will, however, expect heaps of disappointment and salt.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't think she'll be in Smash, but you are really underselling her iconic status. I feel like people here are so immersed in Nintendo history that they tend to overlook how prominent characters outside of Nintendo have been throughout history.

This is perhaps my biggest gripe with the speculation community.

When we had people arguing that Ryu, Snake and Cloud weren't iconic, I was practically fuming. Those three are synonymous with their genres and video games as a whole. To say they aren't iconic is simply admitting to ignorance of the industry.

To see people say similar things about other huge characters like Lara Croft, Steve, and Jill Valentine (just to name a few), just boggles my mind.

You can dislike those characters if you want. You can even think they're unlikely for Smash Bros.

But you cannot deny impact.

 

[PLATINUM7]

One of the chasers on The Chase Australia just answers Tomb Raider for every video game question. It cracks me up, like it's the only video game series he knows.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

This is perhaps my biggest gripe with the speculation community.

When we had people arguing that Ryu, Snake and Cloud weren't iconic, I was practically fuming. Those three are synonymous with their genres and video games as a whole. To say they aren't iconic is simply admitting to ignorance of the industry.

To see people say similar things about other huge characters like Lara Croft, Steve, and Jill Valentine (just to name a few), just boggles my mind.

You can dislike those characters if you want. You can even think they're unlikely for Smash Bros.

But you cannot deny impact.

Hold on, now. I wasn't denying her iconic status. I was denying that she was the single most iconic female videogame character of all time like others were stating. Lara Croft is a big deal. The biggest deal though? I don't feel like that's true in the slightest.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

This is perhaps my biggest gripe with the speculation community.

When we had people arguing that Ryu, Snake and Cloud weren't iconic, I was practically fuming. Those three are synonymous with their genres and video games as a whole. To say they aren't iconic is simply admitting to ignorance of the industry.

To see people say similar things about other huge characters like Lara Croft, Steve, and Jill Valentine (just to name a few), just boggles my mind.

You can dislike those characters if you want. You can even think they're unlikely for Smash Bros.

But you cannot deny impact.

I knew this was bad in our community when I had to explain many many many many times why Pac Man was important during the base roster of Smash 4.

Like Pac Man.

Godfather of all gaming.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Hold on, now. I wasn't denying her iconic status. I was denying that she was the single most iconic female videogame character of all time like others were stating. Lara Croft is a big deal. The biggest deal though? I don't feel like that's true in the slightest.

I know. That wasn't really directed towards ya dude.

I knew this was bad in our community when I had to explain many many many many times why Pac Man was important during the base roster of Smash 4.

Like Pac Man.

Godfather of all gaming.

Yeah that stings....

 

[PLATINUM7]

I knew this was bad in our community when I had to explain many many many many times why Pac Man was important during the base roster of Smash 4.

Like Pac Man.

Godfather of all gaming.

Oh man, the number of anti-Pac-Man people on these boards was mind boggling.

So many of them just kept echoeing the same narrative that he was irrelevant and no longer a gaming icon.

Then he got revealed and the most spectacular 180 in history occured.

Similar with Miis but for different reasons.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Hold on, now. I wasn't denying her iconic status. I was denying that she was the single most iconic female videogame character of all time like others were stating. Lara Croft is a big deal. The biggest deal though? I don't feel like that's true in the slightest.

I'd wager she's easily the most iconic female gaming character to the point her nearest equal Peach had her role shifted to be less of a damsel because of her.

Peach had Super Mario RPG that same year Lara showed up, and in that we'd already seen her filling a different role, but thanks to Lara's success more and more companies took note and they had less and less ''The girl is a damsel" games and more ''This girl is a bad ass."

So naturally Peach started getting active roles in stories more. (And before you go back to Super Mario Brothers 2. Reminder that it was simply another game re-skinned, so not the best example of Peach being a hero character/protagonist and not a damsel)

If it helps your thoughts any more though? Having people like Samus, Sonya Blade, Chun Li and Cammy who were non damsel female characters certainly helped pave way for Lara Croft to do what she did.

But her and Peach are most likely IMO the most iconic female gaming characters in the entire world. No one comes close to either of them.

 

[PLATINUM7]

What about Ms. Pac-Man?

Pac-Man holds (last I checked) the Guinness World Record for most recognisable video game character. So I imagine Ms. Pac-Man would also be fairly recognisable.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Ms. Pac Man is pretty recognizable, but also a problem with female characters from her time. She was just Pac Man with a bow slapped on his head. She had no true identity of her own for the height of her popularity.

I'd wager this since Lara is a little less popular in certain countries like Japan.

Peach is the most iconic female gaming character worldwide. She shares this pretty equally with Lara in the West.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I remember there was one mediocre Disney show where the main character was a teenage girl and saw her brothers playing video games.

The game was "Babe Raider" and was a super obvious parody of Tomb Raider where the main character wore a skintight clothing and was made to sound as obnoxiously sexy as possible. Girl hated it.

Then the girl played it on a whim and loved it. She loved it more than her brothers. She eventually cosplayed the character at school and said that "Babe Raider" was kind of dumb but she loved it and she said it wasn't right to label something you haven't tried or something like that. I honestly don't remember the whole thing.


But Guys.

Disney took notice of Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft is a big deal.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Hold on, now. I wasn't denying her iconic status. I was denying that she was the single most iconic female videogame character of all time like others were stating. Lara Croft is a big deal. The biggest deal though? I don't feel like that's true in the slightest.

You said "she's iconic probably" as if you were unsure of that fact, and you compared her iconicness to Samus, which seems... misguided.

You also said "calling her one of the most iconic videogame characters ever is uh, really out there" which I find kind of confusing. Just how iconic does a character have to be to be considered one of the most iconic video game characters ever?

 

[PLATINUM7]

I remember there was one mediocre Disney show where the main character was a teenage girl and saw her brothers playing video games.

The game was "Babe Raider" and was a super obvious parody of Tomb Raider where the main character wore a skintight clothing and was made to sound as obnoxiously sexy as possible. Girl hated it.

Then the girl played it on a whim and loved it. She loved it more than her brothers. She eventually cosplayed the character at school and said that "Babe Raider" was kind of dumb but she loved it and she said it wasn't right to label something you haven't tried or something like that.


Guys.

Disney took notice of Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft is a big deal.

I can't tell whether this is a serious post or not.

Like you could have an argument about Lara's prevalence in pop culture but you've done it such a weird way.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I'd also like to drive home this point.

An icon does not lose their icon status over-all simply because they are having a rough patch or a diminished amount of attention.

Sonic, Pac Man, Mega Man and even Snake are all icons who have all had rough patches in their series history now. Sonic, Pac Man, and Mega Man even had diminished peaks of interest.

It didn't strip them of their iconic status. Nothing ever will. Nothing changes that.

My god look at how many of us have Spyro avatars right now. He was an icon of so many people's child-hoods and gaming during his prime and we're all celebrating his icon stature and his hopeful return to form after a rough patch in his career, if you personally consider the Skylanders years that.

Icons don't fade. That's what makes them iconic. This applies to anything really in entertainment.

Celebrities retire from music, acting, or just get upstaged by younger versions of themselves that they inspired, but that doesn't rob them of their achievements or fame.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just how iconic does a character have to be to be considered one of the most iconic video game characters ever?

To be completely honest?

It's a bit relative on where you draw the line and where the levels of mass appeal start and stop.

Not to mention that you can admittedly group things together to fit different groups of people and subjects.

Like, Skull Kid is an iconic Zelda character, but he isn't iconic in the span of video games and culture and large.


Personally I think Nintendo only has a handful of series that really qualify as iconic to video games as a whole.

Super Mario (and all related series like Yoshi, Donkey Kong and Wario)
The Legend of Zelda
Pokemon
Mii/Wii Brand

And if I'm feeling generous...

Metroid
Kirby

I can't tell whether this is a serious post or not.

I found the episode!

It exists.

Admittedly, I phrased that a bit weird (It's 3 AM here, gimme a break), but the point should still stand.


EDIT:

Watching the episode again, it seems its a sharp critique of Tomb Raider's flaws while briefly praising its positives.

I mean, its a bit more negative than I like my critiques to be and I think they're underselling Tomb Raider (they've never done anything as ridiculous as a topless level) but eh opinions.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I remember there was one mediocre Disney show where the main character was a teenage girl and saw her brothers playing video games.

The game was "Babe Raider" and was a super obvious parody of Tomb Raider where the main character wore a skintight clothing and was made to sound as obnoxiously sexy as possible. Girl hated it.

Then the girl played it on a whim and loved it. She loved it more than her brothers. She eventually cosplayed the character at school and said that "Babe Raider" was kind of dumb but she loved it and she said it wasn't right to label something you haven't tried or something like that.


Guys.

Disney took notice of Tomb Raider.

Lara Croft is a big deal.

Oh God, I remember that!

You know there is another video game character Disney took notice of.

So Disney used @smashified Ridley in one of their D|XP shows pic.twitter.com/rePZ5q9ZPy

— Punished "Bobby" Kennedy (@bringobrongoS) September 7, 2017

Ridley confirmed

 

[Danpal65]

Ms. Pac Man is pretty recognizable, but also a problem with female characters from her time. She was just Pac Man with a bow slapped on his head. She had no true identity of her own for the height of her popularity.

To be fair she was limited by the graphics at the time. The bow was the largest differentiator they could provide whilst maintaining her look as Pac-Man

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Jesus I had no idea one of Lara's Guiness World Records is literally ''Most recognized female video game character."

Lara Croft holds a Guinness World Record as the "most recognized female video game character",[47][165] and received a star on the Walk of Game in San Francisco.[166][167] Game Informer commented that the character is well liked around the world, particularly in England.[61] Official US PlayStation Magazine described Croft as "one of today's premier videogame and movie heroes", and Play magazine described her as "3D gaming's first female superstar".[30][168] Hartas called Croft one of the most famous game women, praising her independence.[169] Karen Jones of Official US PlayStation Magazine described the character as "one of the biggest stars on the PlayStation".[63] In 1998, PlayStation Magazine commented that Lara Croft was one of the most memorable characters on the PlayStation console, and echoed a similar statement in 2004.[170][171] Time magazine writer Chris Taylor called her "the foundation of one of the most successful franchises in video-game history."[149] In June 2010, Entertainment Weekly named her one of the 100 Greatest Characters of the Last 20 Years.[172] In 2011, Empire ranked her as the fifth greatest video game character.[173]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Croft#cite_note-180

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I am just watching more of this show....

Everyone in it is obnoxious.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Jesus I had no idea one of Lara's Guiness World Records is literally ''Most recognized female video game character."

Eh, just because she has the record for most recognized female video game character doesn't mean she's the most recognized female video game character.

Nana from Ice Climber is definitely more iconic.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Eh, just because she has the record for most recognized female video game character doesn't mean she's the most recognized female video game character.

Nana from Ice Climber is definitely more iconic.

No. You are wrong.

It is clearly Birdo.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No. You are wrong.

It is clearly Birdo.

...

You know, now that I think about it, Birdo is probably the most recognizable transgender character in gaming...

Huh....

 

[Danpal65]

...

You know, now that I think about it, Birdo is probably the most recognizable transgender character in gaming...

Huh....

The whole Birdo thing is just a world of weird.

Does anyone know what the current canon is between Yoshi and Birdo? Are they still a couple? It does not really seem to be alluded to in recent games.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

...

You know, now that I think about it, Birdo is probably the most recognizable transgender character in gaming...

Huh....

Hmmm. Her only competition is Poison really.

Neither are instantaneously recognizable in mass appeal, but Birdo would probably get more seeing as she's part of the Mario universe.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The whole Birdo thing is just a world of weird.

Does anyone know what the current canon is between Yoshi and Birdo? Are they still a couple? It does not really seem to be alluded to in recent games.

I don't know if they were ever officially a couple.

I kinda hope they aren't just because I like the idea of Yoshis being asexual buddies and Birdo being a single lady looking for a man like the RPGs.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

And now I am going to forever put Beyonce's Single Ladies to Birdo.

''If you like it you should've put a ring on it."

She wears a giant ass ring.

Someone put a ring on it and Birdo is saying that Yoshi can't be mad at her.

Yes, this is now my fanon for them.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Stay on topic, guys.

 

[Double0Groove]

Look, guys, if the demand is there then Lara definitely has a chance to get in. She is, in fact, a character that is very well known, both in and out of the gaming community. That much has already been proven. To argue against this any further is just ridiculous. She's an iconic gaming figure. A BIG gaming icon. As it stands, there's no reason to stick to this part of the argument. If you're still against her joining, then your best option is to tackle some other reason as to why you think she can't/shouldn't make it.

 

[Danpal65]

Here's a thought since we are talking about 3rd parties at the moment. What franchises could be represented through music for stages relating to the franchise owner (e.g. a Samba de Amigo track for whatever Sonic stage could be in the game)?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Here's a thought since we are talking about 3rd parties at the moment. What franchises could be represented through music for stages relating to the franchise owner (e.g. a Samba de Amigo track for whatever Sonic stage could be in the game)?

Square has plenty of music across it's franchises that would work. The soundtracks for the Chrono games are beautiful and I'd love to see the get some love in a Final Fantasy stage.

 

[Diddy Kong]

...

You know, now that I think about it, Birdo is probably the most recognizable transgender character in gaming...

Huh....

I argue that's Sheik

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I argue that's Sheik

That's cross-dressing, fam. Sheik is essentially a Drag King.

 

[Cosmic77]

Third-parties aren't my strong suit, so I can't really say how likely Lara Croft would be or how iconic she is.


Actually, truth be told, I wouldn't be upset if we didn't get ANY new third-party characters in this Smash. Smash 4 gave us 5 new third-party characters, so I feel like it wouldn't be that huge of a deal if we just kept what we have and focus on Nintendo characters.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Looking at the base roster of past games the newest characters included in those games were:

• - Last minute clone addition who was only considered after Sakurai finished his project plan and had extra time for bonus characters.He had perfect timing as his game was even originally slated to be released before Melee. More importantly, he was similar enough to Marth to be feasible as a last-minute clone character whilst distinct enough in the eyes of Sakurai to be interesting. If it weren't for the last two points and Sakurai looking for clones after getting every other character completed, Roy wouldn't have been considered.
  
• - The only Brawl newcomer to make their debut the year after the roster was decided. Mother 3 had a long development history, spanning 4 consoles. More relevant to the point is that it was around 60% complete and it was, when Mother 3 ended up being moved to the GBA, intended to be released in 2005, the same year the Brawl roster was finalised (with one obvious exception).
  
• - A Pokemon X and Y newcomer was stated specifically to be the one exception to the Smash 4 roster being hard-locked as it was reserved a slot. The most favourable Pokemon game in terms of timing was X and Y, which was released in the sweetspot of ~one year after the roster was finalized but ~one year before Smash 4 was released.

So when you look at it, base game newcomer characters that debuted after the roster for each game was finalized have been far more rare than people think.

I will say this regarding really new characters - there was an example of a character that was very new at the time but Sakurai refused to add despite being aware of that character. This example was actually Olimar in Melee. I don't think people are focusing on the idea of whether or not he'd want to add specific non-clone characters that debuted after Smash rosters were finalized and are more debating whether or not he would know them. That is at least something worth considering

 

[Danpal65]

That's cross-dressing, fam. Sheik is essentially a Drag King.

It kinda depends on what source you take and consider canon. Sheik was considered female, and just Zelda in disguise, in Ocarina of Time and has been confirmed by Anouma and Bill Trinen as being so. But, if you follow the manga, the Zelda herself is sealed away and Sheik is actually Zelda transformed into a man.

In one case she is cross dressing and I guess the other would be more in line with being transgender in a magical sort of way.