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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Senselessbreak

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Base roster. Each game has had last second clones and semi clones to pad off the roster. They are going to happen this time around too. Ribbon Girl is one of the most realizable padding clones out there right now.
 

TheLastJinjo

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I’m going to be honest here. But Dr. Mario being an alt for Mario isn’t really far fetched.
I mean I just explained why it is far fetched.

At the end of the day, Dr. Mario is Mario with a lab coat
And I just explained why he's not. It's kind of annoying when I have to repeat myself. Like, I've actually explained my position and you're just sitting here saying "nuh-uh."
 
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True Blue Warrior

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Base roster. Each game has had last second clones and semi clones to pad off the roster. They are going to happen this time around too. Ribbon Girl is one of the most realizable padding clones out there right now.
So I guess you're strongly confident we'll for sure get an unique ARMS character in the base roster and that Sakurai will reserve a slot for one?
 
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TheLastJinjo

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So I guess you're strongly confident we'll for sure get an unique ARMS character in the base roster and that Sakurai will reserve a slot for one?
If Arms is getting any characters in this game, they will probably be added late in to development like Sonic was. If Super Smash Bros. started development in 2016 then the priority probably isn't going to go to an IP that won't exist for another year.

Hopefully there's time to add Spring Man with Ribbon Girl as a semi-clone weilding poppers instead of fists. But, I seriously doubt they were a part of the original list of newcomers. It's going to be made up of characters prior to 2017, with the exception of characters from already existing universes like Poipole or Rex & Pyra.
 
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Senselessbreak

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So I guess you're strongly confident we'll for sure get an unique ARMS character in the base roster and that Sakurai will reserve a slot for one?
For sure Arms reps yes. People who think they won't get in or that there wasn't enough time are crazy and need to put down the mary jane.

1) By the time Smash releases this fall, it will have been almost 2 years since Arms was officially revealed. For some reason people think 2 years of publicly knowing about a franchise isn't enough to develop a character.
2) Sakurai has added promotional/upcoming characters before. Thus this "fan rule" that characters are too late does not exist.
3) Nintendo is pushing the series hard and wants it to succeed.....And its almost like a certain fighting series is a fantastic way to increase exposure.
4) People think Sakurai's "conceptualized" roster is set in stone. Its not. It changes often. Characters get added, cut, made priority, etc.
5) People assume Sakurai found out about Arms when it was officially revealed. Those same people also think that Sakurai was already developing Smash 5 before the Switch was revealed, meaning he instantly knew how to use the new hardware without receiving training and demos from other devs learning how to use the new console. They also assume Sakurai didn't ask Nintendo what they were working on before planning out a roster.

Getting second rep since like a good possibility as Ribbon Girl would make a good last second and easy clone to add to the roster.
 

TheLastJinjo

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For sure Arms reps yes. People who think they won't get in or that there wasn't enough time are crazy and need to put down the mary jane.

1) By the time Smash releases this fall, it will have been almost 2 years since Arms was officially revealed. For some reason people think 2 years of publicly knowing about a franchise isn't enough to develop a character.
In Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS, the roster for the game was decided BEFORE the game starts development.

If Super Smash Bros is being released in 2018, then it likely started development in 2016 at the latest. At this point, the Arms IP won't exist for another year. And while characters that debut after the game starts development have been included before, it's yet to happen to a completely new IP. It's only been for existing universes like Fire Emblem & Pokemon. So that's why people are skeptical.
 

TumblrFamous

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I mean I just explained why it is far fetched.


And I just explained why he's not. It's kind of annoying when I have to repeat myself. Like, I've actually explained my position and you're just sitting here saying "nuh-uh."
Sakurai literally said that Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina were originally going to be alts, then were changed at the last minute after realizing they had a bit of time to pad out the roster. On top of the fact that he just didn't want fans to miss the old doc. It's really not far-fetched.
 
D

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I just arrived from a 10 day visit to Japan and can confirm that something Pokémon, Splatoon and/or Kirby can be found in, like, every corner lol. Mimikyu-merch was everywhere as expected, but I was a bit surprised to see the amount of Marx-related merch when it comes to Kirby.

Oh, and some trains/railways had Isabelle (Animal Crossing) going through safety instructions on the screens. I found that adorable.
Neat. Always nice to see Mimikyu get more attention. Hopefully we see Marx more often in games from here on out.
 

TheLastJinjo

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Sakurai literally said that Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina were originally going to be alts, then were changed at the last minute after realizing they had a bit of time to pad out the roster.
It wasn't to "pad out the roster". He literally said it was because of their differences that they were separated. Which supports my point. He changed his mind because he decided it wouldn't work.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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In Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS, the roster for the game was decided BEFORE the game starts development.

If Super Smash Bros is being released in 2018, then it likely started development in 2016 at the latest. At this point, the Arms IP won't exist for another year. And while characters that debut after the game starts development have been included before, it's yet to happen to a completely new IP. It's only been for existing universes like Fire Emblem & Pokemon. So that's why people are skeptical.
Roy's circumstances aren't really comparable to an ARMS or XC2 character for reasons I have previously explained. Greninja would be a better comparison as he was highly prioritised (though we don't know if an exception was made for an X and Y newcomer because Pokemon is that huge. It is a possibility)
 

Senselessbreak

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In Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS, the roster for the game was decided BEFORE the game starts development.

If Super Smash Bros is being released in 2018, then it likely started development in 2016 at the latest. At this point, the Arms IP won't exist for another year. And while characters that debut after the game starts development have been included before, it's yet to happen to a completely new IP. It's only been for existing universes like Fire Emblem & Pokemon. So that's why people are skeptical.
You are assuming actual Smash development started in 2016 (We have no evidence other than that Sakurai took a break in March 2016 with no idea how long it lasted), and you are assuming that Arms didn't exist in 2016. If an Arms trailer was ready for Jan 2017, that means dev started sometime during early 2016 at the latest. In fact, the studio was created in Sept 2015, which could lead to suggestion that early planning for Arms started around that point.

And you also have to remember that Nintendo pushing ARMs hard. They did this with Splatoon and it succeeded. They put Splatoon everywhere and now its in Smash. Now Arms is receiving the same treatment. It got a panel at GDC, is getting its own comic series, its going to share the spotlight with Smash and Splatoon at E3 during the tournament invitationals. And they are doing another free play period and discount for the game to get more people onboard. They don't do this for other newer IPs like Dillon, Ever Oasis, Box Boy, or Rhythm Heaven.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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Roy's circumstances aren't really comparable to an ARMS or XC2 character for reasons I have previously explained. Greninja would be a better comparison as he was highly prioritised (though we don't know if an exception was made for an X and Y newcomer because Pokemon is that huge. It is a possibility)
My whole point was that they weren't comparable. What are you talking about?
 

TheLastJinjo

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You are assuming actual development started in 2016, and you are assuming that Arms didn't exist in 2016. If an Arms trailer was ready for Jan 2017, that means dev started sometime during early 2016 at the latest. In fact, the studio was created in Sept 2015, which could lead to suggestion that early planning for Arms started around that point.

And you also have to remember that Nintendo pushing ARMs hard. They did this with Splatoon and it succeeded. They put Splatoon everywhere and now its in Smash. Now Arms is receiving the same treatment. It got a panel at GDC, is getting its own comic series, its going to share the spotlight with Smash and Splatoon at E3 during the tournament invitationals. And they are dong another free play period and discount for the game to get more people onboard. They don't do this for other newer IPs like Dillon, Ever Oasis, Box Boy, or Rhythm Heaven.
That's because those IPs have existed for YEARS. That's why they are more likely. There is no way an Arms character is going to get in before a Rhythm Heaven character. That much is certain. Rhythm Heaven has sold way more and has existed since 2006 and continues to have new releases. That is the point we are making.
 
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dezeray112

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So I wonder which leak will end up being the new ChaosZero/Ninka leak?

That said though it seems pretty obvious that these are definitely borderline confirmed stages.

Inkopolis
New Donk City/Odyssey Stage
Breath of The Wild Stage
For stages, I would also like and hope to a stage inspired from Pokemon Ultra Sun/Moon's Ultra Space.

As for the leaks, its very hard to say at the moment but we'll see if there are any.
 
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Cosmic77

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That's because those IPs have existed for YEARS. That's why they are more likely. There is no way an Arms character is going to get in before a Rhythm Heaven character. That much is certain. Rhythm Heaven has sold way more and has existed since 2006 and continues to have new releases. That is the point we are making.
Splatoon debuted in 2014 and has only gotten two games so far. Inklings got in Smash before a Rhythm Heaven rep.


Is it really so impossible for an ARMS character to get in before Rhythm Heaven?
 

FUNT1MER

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Sooo..... that New spyro remake came out ..... he’s definitely too late for smash right?
 

FlareHabanero

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I remember when people were trying to pull the "only one game" garbage last time around when I was vouching for Shulk. It was a pretty shallow argument because it never even existed to begin with, and lo and behold, Shulk got into Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS despite at the time Xenoblade Chronicles being a one time thing.

The whole ARMS argument feels like a repeat of that, and likewise I'm expecting history to repeat itself.
 
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Senselessbreak

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That's because those IPs have existed for YEARS. That's why they are more likely. There is no way an Arms character is going to get in before a Rhythm Heaven character. That much is certain. Rhythm Heaven has sold way more and has existed since 2006 and continues to have new releases. That is the point we are making.
As much as I'd love a RH rep it already missed its chance the last two Smash go arounds, so what would exactly make things different this time? And yes I believe the Gematsu leaks were true and the RH logo suggests they were planned and possibly had some development. They were likely low priority. I mean again a newer series like Splatoon got in before RH, despite RH being around for more than a decade longer. As I said above its because of the way Nintendo is pushing the series. They want Splatoon in everything and want it to succeed. Their branding has been very successful and they are using the same kind of technique with ARMs. They barely talk about RH and couldn't even give its last game a physical release in the US.
 
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BluePikmin11

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Base roster. Each game has had last second clones and semi clones to pad off the roster. They are going to happen this time around too. Ribbon Girl is one of the most realizable padding clones out there right now.
If Spring Man is going to be added lated via Sonic in Brawl (Assuming the roster was decided early 2016), it's a last minute situation within a last minute situation for Ribbon Girl. I am not too keen about Ribbon Girl happening despite the feasibility, if Spring Man does come to Smash Switch.
 

TumblrFamous

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It wasn't to "pad out the roster". He literally said it was because of their differences that they were separated. Which supports my point. He changed his mind because he decided it wouldn't work.
"This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge."

To me, it sounds like "extra". But you're pretty set in your opinion, so I'll respect it. But I think that decisions made can have multiple explanations rather than just only padding or only separate because there are potential differences.
 

Arcanir

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You are assuming actual development started in 2016, and you are assuming that Arms didn't exist in 2016. If an Arms trailer was ready for Jan 2017, that means dev started sometime during early 2016 at the latest. In fact, the studio was created in Sept 2015, which could lead to suggestion that early planning for Arms started around that point.
We do know Smash Switch did start development in 2016, even ignoring Sakurai blatantly saying his next project was already decided and he's only taking a short break between it and DLC. In a Famitsu article, he said that he buys stuff from references for his work, and then gives a recent example of the Galactic Drifter Vifam model that he bought for the rifle. Since interviews are done at least a month beforehand, he likely bought it either in October or November of that year, and that means at the very least he was working on Smash Switch for two months beforehand if he was already buying things for reference.

Also, regardless of when ARMs started development, it doesn't mean Sakurai is aware of it. There are plenty of projects that were in development alongside other Smash games such as the first Pikmin game (Melee), Mario Galaxy, Prime 3, Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn and Shadow Dragon (Brawl), Wonderful 101, and Tropical Freeze (Smash 4) that only got minor things like trophies and music in the game. ARMs existing in development doesn't mean it's guaranteed content in this Smash, especially in terms of characters since they require a lot of work to be done.
 

True Blue Warrior

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If Spring Man is going to be added lated via Sonic in Brawl (Assuming the roster was decided early 2016), it's a last minute situation within a last minute situation for Ribbon Girl. I am not too keen about Ribbon Girl happening despite the feasibility, if Spring Man does come to Smash Switch.
The only reasons Brawl was delayed to add Sonic was because of how highly requested, hype inducing and iconic Sonic was and still is. Sonic, along with Snake, was even used as one of the major selling points of Brawl (as seen with the back of the Brawl cover). Spring Man is nowhere near on par with Sonic, especially in terms of popularity, so he's not going to be a last-minute non-clone addition that delays the game. Either he gets the Greninja treatment, or he is not in the base roster as a playable character.
 

Scoliosis Jones

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One thing to keep in mind is that while Sakurai did start working on this game sometime in 2016 (let's say June/July) he would not only probably be looking at what was going on at the time, but what would have been out around the time of the release of this game.

It's not like games just kinda *poof* and appear. Games have development time, as in being made over the course of a year or more. If he didn't look to the future, we'd for sure be getting Elma. For all I know, we may still get Elma. But there's no way Monolith Soft wasn't like, "Hey check out this other game we're working on" and showed him stuff for Xenoblade 2. There's also the fact that he very likely keeps in touch with the different entities involved to ask questions, make sure he gets things right, etc.

Sometimes I feel like he's viewed as some magician with a wand who just does things. That's not how it works.

I must say I'm skeptical of an ARMS character based on that recent interview with the ARMS creator. Seemed to me like he didn't know if there was going to be an ARMS character in Smash. That might be a PR stunt, but who knows?
 

True Blue Warrior

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One thing to keep in mind is that while Sakurai did start working on this game sometime in 2016 (let's say June/July) he would not only probably be looking at what was going on at the time, but what would have been out around the time of the release of this game.

It's not like games just kinda *poof* and appear. Games have development time, as in being made over the course of a year or more. If he didn't look to the future, we'd for sure be getting Elma. For all I know, we may still get Elma. But there's no way Monolith Soft wasn't like, "Hey check out this other game we're working on" and showed him stuff for Xenoblade 2. There's also the fact that he very likely keeps in touch with the different entities involved to ask questions, make sure he gets things right, etc.

Sometimes I feel like he's viewed as some magician with a wand who just does things. That's not how it works.

I must say I'm skeptical of an ARMS character based on that recent interview with the ARMS creator. Seemed to me like he didn't know if there was going to be an ARMS character in Smash. That might be a PR stunt, but who knows?
Thing is, the only character we got that debuted the same year a Smash game was released was Roy, a last-minute clone addition who had really greart circumstances surrounding him for the reason I linked to in a previous post.

Frankly, as I have stated before, the only characters I think have a plausible chance of getting the Greninja treatment are an ARMS character, Celica and Rex (with Pyra).
 

ColietheGoalie

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Also, regardless of when ARMs started development, it doesn't mean Sakurai is aware of it. There are plenty of projects that were in development alongside other Smash games such as the first Pikmin game (Melee), Mario Galaxy, Prime 3, Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn and Shadow Dragon (Brawl), Wonderful 101, and Tropical Freeze (Smash 4) that only got minor things like trophies and music in the game. ARMs existing in development doesn't mean it's guaranteed content in this Smash, especially in terms of characters since they require a lot of work to be done.
I think this is an important point.

Smash is almost always a generation behind on the big stuff. We didn't get Mario Galaxy stuff until Smash4. They came out around the same time, and it's not like Mario games are a big risk for being well-received, so why wouldn't they add a stage/music/Rosa into Brawl if the big new game coming out at the same time was on the table? Why wasn't Olimar in Melee? Why didn't Inklings get put into Smash4?

Other than Greninja (a safe bet from one of the biggest franchises in the game), Corrin (again, 6th character from a huge franchise) and some last minute clones, characters don't tend to show up for a generation at least.

Based on their success, I'm sure ARMS' day is coming. I'm just not sure it's in Smash5 (barring DLC).
Two characters I find even less likely.
 

Godzillathewonderdog

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If Sakurai did start development for Smash early-mid 2016 then that's right inbetween the releases of Paper Jam and Color Splash. Paper Mario must have been fresh in Sakurai's mind; not to mention he is a highly requested unique character from a long going successful franchise.

I'm just sayin :smash:
 

Icedragonadam

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So if this game started a couple of months after Corrin and Bayonetta's release, what does that mean for the chances of the DLC characters returning?
 
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Danpal65

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This is a good discussion video...I'd like to know people's thoughts on this. Discussion by @PushDustIn and NantenJex

Alrighty. I'm back.

So a mid-late 2016 date for the project plan being finalised. That certainly sounds like it could be good thing for characters that debuted on the Switch, especially ones that were shown in the Switch's launch trailer. Characters from ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 would definitely cross over with the development of this Smash game, so that raises the possibility of a Spring Man and Rex/Pyra character getting in, not guaranteed but possible. Although, arguably, Spring Man may be less likely due to the newness of the franchise.

This will also mean that this game will have been in development for 2 years, a pretty standard time frame for the development of a Smash game.

Edit: The use of Elma over Rex/Pyra though is something that, whilst not something I would prefer, would be something I would be okay with because the Xenoblade series is one that I really like.
 
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Hinata

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So if this game started a couple of months after Corrin and Bayonetta's release, what does that mean for the chances of the DLC characters returning?
I think they've got good chances. If development for this game started a couple months after Corrin and Bayonetta, that means that those characters and the work the team put into them was fresh in Sakurai's mind.
 
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Danpal65

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Also, back on the whether the Spyro game will be coming to the Switch or not it looks like Nintendo support is saying that is is.

 

Bebe Mignon

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Alrighty. I'm back.

So a mid-late 2016 date for the project plan being finalised. That certainly sounds like it could be good thing for characters that debuted on the Switch, especially ones that were shown in the Switch's launch trailer. Characters from ARMS and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 would definitely cross over with the development of this Smash game, so that raises the possibility of a Spring Man and Rex/Pyra character getting in, not guaranteed but possible. Although, arguably, Spring Man may be less likely due to the newness of the franchise.

This will also mean that this game will have been in development for 2 years, a pretty standard time frame for the development of a Smash game.
Hmm... That's not the general vibe I got from the discussion, so I take it you're disagreeing with them?

Edit: To clarify myself, I thought they said that the project plan harms the character's potential due to their respective development time period.
 
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Scoliosis Jones

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Thing is, the only character we got that debuted the same year a Smash game was released was Roy, a last-minute clone addition who had really greart circumstances surrounding him for the reason I linked to in a previous post.

Frankly, as I have stated before, the only characters I think have a plausible chance of getting the Greninja treatment are an ARMS character, Celica and Rex (with Pyra).
I kinda have to wonder if that's potentially a theme of this Smash, considering there's not as much time between titles as say, Melee to Brawl or Brawl to Wii U. Not to be overly optimistic but again, maybe the plan was to add some new stuff to this game and more or less present as Smash Bros 6?

Not that ARMS has to fill the niche, but each Smash game adds a few new IP into the mix. So far we've got Inklings, but a lot of other newcomers we discuss are from veteran series. ARMS fits this perfectly and has been significantly pushed by Nintendo, and might actually benefit from having somebody in Smash.

But again, timing might not have worked out. There's just something off about this game though...I can't quite put my finger on it. It just feels different. I get Smash Wii U came out 4 years ago, but it's not the years between release date, but the dev time. If Sakurai finished Wii U in 2016 and didn't even start until I think Summer of 2016? ARMS still had awhile to be officially revealed, but that doesn't mean Sakurai didn't know about it.

It will be an interesting 6 months for sure. I've got a feeling we're going to learn a lot from E3 this year.
 

Danpal65

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Hmm... That's not the general vibe I got from the discussion, so I take it you're disagreeing with them?
I don't disagree with them, I think what they were saying is very reasonable. Maybe ARMS and Rex weren't the best examples. It just seemed to me that it was a bit more reasonable to possibly see some sort of content from early on in the Switch's lifespan than what I had originally thought, such as incorporating content from BotW and Odyssey, probably more so than Xenoblade Chronicles 2.

I do now feel that Elma is certainly a lot more likely than I had expected, which is a good thing. I have not actually finished Xenoblade Chronicles X, but Elma would be a cool character. Their evidence with the figure with the gun and explaining her having a Skell, I'd be on board with that for sure.
 

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After watching that video, I'm pretty under the impression that ARMS will be a first-ticket DLC character, or a character who got shoehorned into development a little late. I think ARMS as a full playable character on the base roster in Smash is entirely dependent on how flexible Sakurai is being with the project plan this time around.

EDIT: Clarified the last sentence a bit.
 
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Hinata

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I do now feel that Elma is certainly a lot more likely than I had expected, which is a good thing. I have not actually finished Xenoblade Chronicles X, but Elma would be a cool character. Their evidence with the figure with the gun and explaining her having a Skell, I'd be on board with that for sure.
I would vastly prefer an XBC2 character, but if we got a character from X, I would prefer it to be Elma, considering she is literally the only character from that game I can remember.
 
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