Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

Dont even go there dude, they are much more popular than Geno... Especially K. Rool, who is the real winner of the ballot

Lol I'm going there and I'm a dudette
Say this all you want my point stands ESPECIALLY pertaining to the core Smash fanbase

 

[KingofKoopas]

I think people seriously over-estimate just how ''popular" Daisy is with the casual audience.

I've yet to meet a single non-hardcore gamer who says their favorite Mario character is Daisy.

Most of them actually find her really annoying. Lol.

I mean they probably exist but they probably only want to do her on hard in a heart shaped box (points to whoever gets it)

 

[T3Z3R1]

It sounds to me like you need to stop to take a breather, buddy. Remakes are nothing new. I dislike Let's Go overly casual direction but it's not much more "Kanto pandering" then ORAS was "Hoenn pandering". Well, aside from no Pokemon beyond Gen 1 but I get the impression that was a resource issue.

It's also a shame that Alola forms were Kantomon, but I don't see what's such a huge deal about that, especially when balance wise Kanto mons need new buffs and niches the most because of powercreep.

Who said that I didn't mention about remakes?

There's reason that I left out remake, because remake can be seen as good example of how original story plays out in modern times with addition.

HGSS and ORAS proves that well, but I don't see it as too much pandering in there.

HGSS did so well, and updated the story, and its post game was too good because you can challenge the gym leaders for rematch. Heck, they even prove some lore regrading Arceus and the theory that Silver was actually Giavnnoi's son finally got confirmed thanks to Celebi event. even Pokemon Special called it back in years old, and there's foreshadowing about it back in FRLG.

On other hand, ORAS was good in its graphic with its postgame story, However the biggest crime of it is that it didn't have original battle frontiers, just battle frontier from pokemon XY. It also prove that there's multiverse or many timelines of pokemon games going on.

Pokemon Let's go didn't have either of those things, it was just some game but with mechanics of pokemon go in it.

 

[Will]

Dont even go there dude, they are much more popular than Geno... Especially K. Rool, who is the real winner of the ballot

I hate it when people do the ballot excuse. All we know is that Bayo was rigged, but not if her scores had any significant impact, either.
We will never, EVER know about who won the ballot because Nintendo and Sakurai are saying Bayonetta did and will until the end of time.

 

[Idon]

How come everyone is saying that about Smash 4 just now all of a sudden? It's like every time a new game comes out this happens. I remember when we were ****ting on Brawl when Smash 4 was in development, and Brawl boys were probably ****talking about Melee back in 2007.

Recency bias. Every single time.

Mark my words, in 4-8 years when the Switch successor comes out this game will be panned for its muted pallet, lack of single-player content, and whatever Sakurai decides Sakurai is the next "cool thing" in Smash 6 will be that isn't in SSBU.
People really have a need to hype themselves over whatever the new hotness by ****ting on the old hotness.

 

[Luigi The President]

I'm too fond of 4 to critique it beyond "no real identity compared to the others"

 

[doomedtacox]

View attachment 178050

I hate it when people do the ballot excuse. All we know is that Bayo was rigged, but not if her scores had any significant impact, either.
We will never, EVER know about who won the ballot because Nintendo and Sakurai are saying Bayonetta did and will until the end of time.

K Rool is a fairly safe bet although yeah we'll never know for sure. I think 3/5 major gaming sites (smashboards, gamefaqs, 4chan, reddit, resetera) had K Rool as their most wanted prior to E3.

 

[Luigifan18]

I mean they probably exist but they probably only want to do her on hard in a heart shaped box (points to whoever gets it)

That stream was freaking glorious.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

If this was anywhere else you'd be arrested for blasphemy.

If I had my cuffs I'd arrest him right now. Unfortunately I left them under my pillowcase.

 

[Luigifan18]

How come everyone is saying that about Smash 4 just now all of a sudden? It's like every time a new game comes out this happens. I remember when we were ****ting on Brawl when Smash 4 was in development, and Brawl boys were probably ****talking about Melee back in 2007.

****ing on older installments that aren't the original is a thing in the Pokémon fandom, too, and probably a lot of others.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I enjoy the character above all else, and I care about how they're represented in this Hall of Fame.
I've never in my lifetime ever wanted a character in just so that their name can be read with all the rest. That's just surface level.

I wanna say "Oh rad, that's Dark Samus from Prime 2/3!" not "Oh huh, that's Samus, but evil themed..."

It was that or nothing.

For me personally, I'd much rather have the something than nothing.

 

[Gyrom8]

I see, I see! Mario is definitely a pretty balanced character that's very easy to pick up by anyone. Just as I feel he should be.

But I noticed you're a ROB main. Do you plan on sticking with him this time around. Or are you finding any of the new characters to be striking your fancy?~

I'm definitely planning on still using ROB a lot. But unlike in Smash 4, where I used him more than anyone else, I'm probably going to balance him more with Olimar and Piranha Plant. And then have a few other characters as secondaries.

... And looking at your profile, I'm guessing you'll be sticking with Pikachu (who's looking v good for Ultimate)?

 

[staindgrey]

You could say the same thing about K. Rool, Chrom, Daisy.

Eh. I support you, man. I hope you get Geno. But I have a very hard time lining up with this.

Most everyone who has ever held an SNES controller knows who K. Rool/Kremlings are. Daisy is a ****ing Mario character who stars in every spin-off game for the last two decades. Chrom benefits from the explosion of popularity in Fire Emblem's renaissance, of which he is a cover character for both Awakening and Warriors. Geno is a beloved favorite of a very specific part of the community, and then simply known by the greater Smash community because Geno fans have requested him for like 15 years.

In terms of the overall player base who will inevitably buy Smash, I would absolutely bet money that Geno is the one of those four who the least amount of people can name. If such a thing were at all measurable.

 

[Will]

****ing on older installments that aren't the original is a thing in the Pokémon fandom, too, and probably a lot of others.

*smash 7 gets trophies back*

AW **** YEAH SMASH ULTIMATE WAS SO TRASH THIS IMMEDIATELY THE BEST GAME

 

[Pyr]

****ing on older installments that aren't the original is a thing in the Pokémon fandom, too, and probably a lot of others.

It's not a specific fandom sort of deal. Not sure why you're calling out Pokémon specifically. Literally every single group or thing has people like this. ****, Microsoft Office has people like this. Change in the UI and people lose their minds.

It's just a natural thing in all communities.

 

[Wyoming]

I think people seriously over-estimate just how ''popular" Daisy is with the casual audience.

I've yet to meet a single non-hardcore gamer who says their favorite Mario character is Daisy.

Most of them actually find her really annoying. Lol.

Hey there, it's me Daisy is my favorite character to use in spin off guy.

 

[vaanrose]

Part of the most frustrating aspects of the whole "irrelevant" argument in speculation is the unspoken, unanimous agreement that 80s nostalgia pandering is more valid than the decades that follow.

Seriously, nobody brings up relevancy when you bring up a NES-era character as a "retro rep". Relevancy be damned, picks like Takamaru and Mach Rider are fair game, and why wouldn't they be? Smash brought back the Ice Climbers and Pit from the brink of obscurity, disregarding the fact that there's no way in hell the vast majority of the contemporary gaming audience would have heard of them at the time. Hell, it straight-up invented a character in Mr. Game and Watch, Frankensteining a bunch of disparate LCD toys into a singular, tangible form. Those picks were for the hardcore Nintendo crowd, the type that know every bit of esoteric trivia about the company and its games that there is to be known.

But it's been a decade since Brawl, and nearly two since Melee. Time has passed and so has our standards for what constitutes "retro". So why is it that characters that are, by all rights, now "retro" dismissed as "irrelevant" instead? Seriously. K. Rool got hit by that particular hammer repeatedly, and, now that he's in, Isaac seems to be its biggest first party victim. Never mind the fact that Donkey Kong Country and Golden Sun are, in the year of our lord 2018, older now than Ice Climber was in 2001.

The double standards permeate into third party, too. I almost never saw Mega Man and Simon Belmont hit with the irrelevant argument the way I do Banjo-Kazooie. Yes, those series were in marginally healthier places than Banjo-Kazooie is now, with the Mega Man x Street Fighter fangame getting officially licensed in 2012, and Castlevania having a Netflix series. But those were scraps, with little to do with Capcom or Konami themselves. They were, by all accounts, dead franchises. At least Microsoft and Rare are taking some active interest with Banjo this year thanks to the 20th anniversary and subsequent merchandise. I'm not saying those are any better than what Mega Man and Castlevania were getting pre-Smash announcements, but it's really not substantially worse either. Yet Mega Man and Simon Belmont were seen as substantially less outlandish choices, with their unfamiliarity with contemporary audiences never coming up, and I assure you it's in part due to the decade they came from.

I think people act like there are two camps - the aforementioned hardcore Nintendo crowd, and literal children. The aforementioned hardcore Nintendo crowd can be satiated by characters from the 1980s, and children can be satiated by characters from the 2010s. And I mean, I'm not going to use any of this to disparage kids who do want modern characters, because that's a crappy attitude. Smash is for them, too, 100%. But I will say that the (generally unspoken) attitude of "obscure 80s characters are ok because they're for the hardcore Nintendo fans!!!!!" is predicated on the idea that what constitutes a hardcore Nintendo fan hasn't radically changed since 2001. Which isn't true, because it's not 2001 anymore, time has passed, as it always does, and entropy will consume us all one day, and the sun will expand and consume the Earth in a titanic ball of flame, etc. If you were a kid when you played Melee, or Brawl, I very sincerely doubt you knew who the Ice Climbers or Mr Game & Watch were, or Pit or R.O.B - unless you played Mario Kart DS for the latter. And that's fine, because if you were a kid at the time, why the hell should you be expected to be familiar with characters years and years before your time? But did the presence of those characters bother you in anyway, or were you curious by their inclusion, eager to know more? Do you think they were a wasted spot, and irrelevant? Well, I don't know about you, but as one of those kids who did grow up on Melee, and who had no idea who the Ice Climbers or Mr. Game & Watch - or Ness or Marth or Roy, for that matter - I was absolutely fascinated by those characters, and eager to learn more. I was also excited for seeing characters I was more familiar with, like Bowser, Mewtwo, Ganondorf and Falco, enter the fray too, sure. But the magic of Smash is the mix of the two, to me. The unfamiliar engages with our imagination, pushes us outside of our comfort zone, and that's a wonderful thing! And my personal unfamiliarity with those characters at the time didn't negate the joy I'm sure they brought many others out there who knew them and wanted them and loved them outside of Smash.

All I know is that most of the people in my age group, most of the people I talk to who play games... for them, the announcement of a character like Banjo-Kazooie would resonate substantially more than any other "retro" pick did, and that they are much more intimately familiar with the character than they were Mega Man or Simon. Because for the millions of people who grew up on the Nintendo 64 who have now grown-up and have jobs and pay taxes, Banjo is retro, and Banjo is beloved to us for the same reasons Mega Man and Simon Belmont are beloved to those who grew up on the NES.

I guess to wrap this mad ramble up... of all of Ultimate's character reveal trailers - ignoring the initial reveal trailer with Inklings, 'cuz that was more a reveal for the game as a whole - the one with the highest view count on YouTube is the GameSpot upload of K. Rool's, sitting at nearly 2 million views. And that didn't happen because Donkey Kong is still a relevant franchise - as some people have tried to argue as a factor that excuses K. Rool's inclusion - it happened because this character who hasn't had a major appearance since 1999 happens to resonate with a lot of people, people who grew up on his games. And I know he wouldn't be the only one to illicit such a reaction. Relevancy be damned.

80s Nostalgia is never going away.

The Wedding Singer, Freaks and Geeks, Wet Hot American Summer, all love letters to the 80s, came out twenty years ago. And yet, in the last several years, we got Stranger Things, Everybody Wants Some, It, Glow, etc.

You simply don't see this kind of love for the 90s or the 00s. This is not just a "hardcore Nintendo fan" thing. This is a widespread cultural fascination with the 1980s that permeates across all media.

And to a smaller degree, K.Rool and Banjo aren't considered "retro" despite being older than the Ice Climbers were when they were called "retro" because, well, people don't like changing definitions. It's why Nirvana isn't playing on classic rock radio, and those same stations are still playing the same 60s and 70s music they were playing when Nirvana was new. I collect toys, and the toys from the 80s were called "vintage" back in 1995. My toys that were new in 1995 don't qualify as "vintage" now despite being twice as old as those figures were when they first became "vintage." People are stubborn about this kind of thing.

 

[Luigifan18]

It's not a specific fandom sort of deal. Not sure why you're calling out Pokémon specifically. Literally every single group or thing has people like this. ****, Microsoft Office has people like this.

Pokémon is the only franchise where I was specifically aware of the dumping on older non-gen-1 generations.

 

[staindgrey]

How come everyone is saying that about Smash 4 just now all of a sudden? It's like every time a new game comes out this happens. I remember when we were ****ting on Brawl when Smash 4 was in development, and Brawl boys were probably ****talking about Melee back in 2007.

Well, in terms of Smash 4 over Brawl, Brawl was a terrible competitive fighter and spectator sport. That was the major reason for it.

Brawl is still a wonderful game. Just bad as an "esport".

 

[Luigi The President]

Eh. I support you, man. I hope you get Geno. But I have a very hard time lining up with this.

Most everyone who has ever held an SNES controller knows who K. Rool/Kremlings are. Daisy is a ****ing Mario character who stars in every spin-off game for the last two decades. Chrom benefits from the explosion of popularity in Fire Emblem's renaissance, of which he is a cover character for both Awakening and Warriors. Geno is a beloved favorite of a very specific part of the community, and then simply known by the greater Smash community because Geno fans have requested him for like 15 years.

In terms of the overall player base who will inevitably buy Smash, I would absolutely bet money that Geno is the one of those four who the least amount of people can name. If such a thing were at all measurable.

Thank you staind,

Yeah I'm willing to drop the Daisy point. But I think K. Rool especially is a very valid point, because SMRPG was also a SNES hit. I do think people who held an SNES controller are likely to recognize Geno. Not as much as K. Rool, but yeah.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that "vocal minority" for Geno gets tiring when his popularity is incredibly obvious, at least in MY eyes. Geno is VERY far from a household name, would be easily the least well known third party, but for the audience this game is targetting...I dunno.

 

[Gyrom8]

****ing on older installments that aren't the original is a thing in the Pokémon fandom, too, and probably a lot of others.

Zelda might be an exception. There's supposedly the infamous 'Zelda cycle' where fans dump on the most recent game until the next one comes out and the previous game becomes more acceptable. I don't quite think it's as much of a thing as people claim it is, but it's sort of true with Skyward Sword.

 

[Noipoi]

I don't hate Smash 4 at all, I just think Ultimate has more personality in my opinion.

 

[TheCJBrine]

For the target audience, I don't think Cloud would be very well-known either, nor Bayonetta or a bunch of other characters in the game's roster, if by "target audience" we mean the "younger audience" (given the game's rating).

But, as was pointed out earlier, relevancy isn't the end-all-be-all, although in my opinion it may be a stronger point for DLC (although Lucas was DLC in Smash 4 but to be fair, he was already in Brawl).

 

[Kingslime304]

Did anyone play a 3rd person shooter called Gundog? That game is one of the most fun shooters I've ever played due to it's beginner friendly, fast-passed gameplay (I also great to go ham as the Shotgun dog and slide shot everyone you come across). I really miss it.

 

[Will]

I don't hate Smash 4 at all, I just think Ultimate has more personality in my opinion.

define personality because lucario still has the voice of a smoker

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I don't know if Bayonetta is entirely unknown to children or maybe I just ran into the one 8 year old in the world who has parents who let him play games about witches who wear their hair as clothes and are routinely semi-nude while wearing my Bayonetta shirt grocery shopping.

In fact maybe I should've called child services when he recognized her.

 

[staindgrey]

I don't hate Smash 4 at all, I just think Ultimate has more personality in my opinion.

Ultimate feels like a better Smash 4, whereas 64/Melee/Brawl/4 all felt like entirely different games.

Once Ultimate releases, I kind of see no reason to go back to Smash 4, while I could totally see myself going back to Melee or Brawl for fun.

 

[alemerltoucanet]

Oh wow, it's been a bit since I've been in here. What's everyone up to?

I'm still holding out hope for Geno. The positive points for him that usually get brought up in the support thread really have convinced me he's the most likely SE rep atm.

 

[Deleted member]

How come everyone is saying that about Smash 4 just now all of a sudden? It's like every time a new game comes out this happens. I remember when we were ****ting on Brawl when Smash 4 was in development, and Brawl boys were probably ****talking about Melee back in 2007.

I was criticizing Smash 4 before Ultimate, so Ultimate doesn't really have anything to do with it for me.

Smash 4 was a great game, it truly was, but compared to other Smash games? Easily my least favorite for a multitude of reasons:

-Roster additions didn't do a lot for me.
-DLC felt really lackluster to me personally.
-I didn't care for a large portion of the new stages.
-Single player was completely ruined.
-Customs, while an interesting idea, were implemented poorly and were more frustrating than fun.
-Smash Tour was a huge disappointment.

I could go on, but I'll just leave it there. Smash 3DS was cool, though, I liked that one a lot. Smash Run is dope.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Did anyone play a 3rd person shooter called Gundog? That game is one of the most fun shooters I've ever played due to it's beginner friendly, fast-passed gameplay (I also great to go ham as the Shotgun dog and slide shot everyone you come across). I really miss it.

No, I've never heard of it...

 

[Luigi The President]

Oh wow, it's been a bit since I've been in here. What's everyone up to?

I'm still holding out hope for Geno. The positive points for him that usually get brought up in the support thread really have convinced me he's the most likely SE rep atm.

They're incredibly biased

Now link me the thread and the support points so I can stop crying myself to sleep over a wooden puppet


(i don't really do that gang)

 

[KingofKoopas]

****ing on older installments that aren't the original is a thing in the Pokémon fandom, too, and probably a lot of others.

Have you seen the Sonic fanbase. People got ACTUALLY ASSAULTED for sega not just making the same three games on sega genesis that transport weirdos back to their moms basements in the 90s.

 

[Noipoi]

define personality because lucario still has the voice of a smoker

The mural and the classic mode image have a very nice feel to them, It really feels like Everyone is Here.
All the characters and stages returning, it's like a celebration of Smash itself! I don't hate Smash 4 (I dunno why you think I do) but in my opinion Ultimate just feels grander. It's something huge.

That might not be how you define personality, and that's okay. That's just how it feels to me.

 

[Plumstar]

Question, out of all the cinematic Final Smashes.


Which one is your favorite?

- It's about time we get Masked Dedede in Smash! (my fav)
- Melee reference (My first SSB game).
- Out of all the newcomers, I think he has the best cinematic imo.
- I thought it was okay at first, but loved it even more because of the memes.
- I love his creative comic book final smash. It makes him even more goofy as a character and I love it.
- No more Landmasters.

 

[PsySmasher]

*Sees Geno arguments*
*Sees relevancy arguments*
*Sees something about how fandoms argue that past games suck compared to newer games (or vice versa)*

At least we're talking about something Smash related.

 

[Luigifan18]

Have you seen the Sonic fanbase. People got ACTUALLY ASSAULTED for sega not just making the same three games on sega genesis that transport weirdos back to their moms basements in the 90s.

The Classic vs. Modern Sonic divide is a whole different beast... It's not just "let's blindly dump on somewhat-new stuff", it's a perpetual war.

 

[Kingslime304]

No, I've never heard of it...

I don't blame you, it was only in the beta phase from a online gamesite called OGPlanet (The ones with Rumble Fighter and the first ver. of NA Lost Saga (Both of which are obscure in the west)), and only lasted for I think a bit over 1 month. I played that game every day (Which I do mean everyday after school) until it got shut down.

 

[Will]

The mural and the classic mode image have a very nice feel to them, It really feels like Everyone is Here.
All the characters and stages returning, it's like a celebration of Smash itself! I don't hate Smash 4 (I dunno why you think I do) but in my opinion Ultimate just feels grander. It's something huge.

That might not be how you define personality, and that's okay. That's just how it feels to me.

I never said you hated it I said you **** on it.
also because "more personality" is a weak argument to me

 

[Michael the Spikester]

*Sees Geno arguments*
*Sees relevancy arguments*
*Sees something about how fandoms argue that past games suck compared to newer games (or vice versa)*

View attachment 178056

A least we're talking about something Smash related.

We've been going back and fourth about things for a while now. Even after the drought.

 

[Idon]

Brawl will always exist for that one weird guy who's really into Project M.