Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Also, I'm all for speculation (as seen by visiting this ~7800 page speculation thread), but why do we assume there are really any rules as to what Sakurai can and can't do? If he all of a sudden today decides that he wants to bring back Waluigi, I'm sure he can talk to Nintendo and make it happen. I don't think he has a rulebook that he glances to, opens up page 78, and reads "Assist Trophies must not become fighters." Past patterns and tendencies may be consistent with present actions, but to think he's that restricted... I dunno. Hell, if he wanted to make a playable Beam Sword, he could probably do that. *shrug*

Because more than any other fan base I've ever seen, the Smash fandom likes treating headcanons as absolute truths that can never change, until they do.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, i had an awful day (they can get worse, of course).

Besides that, i agree about Isaac fans reacting in a correct way.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Curious Villager What if, if layton was in smash, his victory pose is of him with Kat and Alfendi on that note, you think Al will ever show up outisde of Brothers and be mentioned outside of Lady Layton?

 

[TreeBranch]

Honestly their hard deconfirmation just makes me hope that other parts of the Grinch end up being real via DLC or extra content.

One of the first mods I hope happen are ones were ATs are made into actual characters since many of them have actual hitboxes, including Isaac.

I'm hoping Sakurai and Nintendo looked at the Grinch leak (they no doubt know about it), and saw how positively it was received. It was basically a free way to determine the reactions to characters and if people would actually buy them.
If we get lucky, the Grinch could have still possibly affected future DLC

 

[Paperchampion23]

You can mod all you want-won't ever be the same as a real character, sadly.

I mean I've seen some pretty convincing ones. The Project M team made an almost complete Knuckles and Lyn, and an Isaac that was close to being convincing (just unfinished).

Legacy XP has a semi decent Geno.

It depends on how good of a mod team starts to work on Ultimate a few years after release. And if it's the only way Isaac fans or Geno fans can enjoy their characters, then it is what it is, especially since this is probably the peak smash game in terms of representation anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

Curious Villager What if, if layton was in smash, his victory pose is of him with Kat and Alfendi

It would be neat and some kind of good detail.

I mean I've seen some pretty convincing ones. The Project M team made an almost complete Knuckles and Lyn, and an Isaac that was close to being convincing (just unfinished).

Legacy XP has a semi decent Geno.

It depends on how good of a mod team starts to work on Ultimate a few years after release. And if it's the only way Isaac fans or Geno fans can enjoy their characters, then it is what it is, especially since this is probably the peak smash game in terms of representation anyway.

The thing that i dislike the most about mods are the stages created with them.

Most are Final Destination or Battlefield clones, and that makes them boring too fast.

 

[Deleted member]

Like I keep saying though...find me a non-fighter Piranha Plant spirit and I'd drop this theory. But ruling it out at this point of time is a bit silly.

Wouldn't Piranha Plant be a bad example considering there are literally dozens of those in existence? :V

 

[ClaTheBae]

I think the way assist trophy reveals were done was absolutely awful. Why not deconfirm Shadow and isaac at E3? Why let people speculate on these two popular characters for this long? If the bandaid was ripped off before the ridley reveal, it all would've been fine. But why wait this long? What was the point of getting our hopes up?

 

[SmashChu]

In regards to the video, I think it's just done that way to be cool. It starts with the logo with Inkling's eye and then ends on the guy looking at the banner with the release date. I think it was just done to be interesting rather than hinting at something. Don't think they'll hint at DLC until next year.

Well he won't say it. But it's certainly a possibility.

Based on how he said it and the entire intention behind the mode, I'd say it is possible it is characters he gave a small role to in a certain way and that's it for them. Especially since DLC was announced in the very same Direct the mode was introduced.

Like I keep saying though...find me a non-fighter Piranha Plant spirit and I'd drop this theory. But ruling it out at this point of time is a bit silly.

You may have a point if Sakurai was deciding the DLC, but it's Nintendo who is separate from the decisions to make specific characters spirits or costumes. Sakurai was probably concerned about putting in what we could rather than what was going to be DLC or not.

There's never been a hard and fast rule that if X is in there as something else, X can't be in. Great example was, during Brawl, everyone through ROB couldn't be playable because he was an enemy. Well, turns out her was playable. I wouldn't rule out things just because they are a spirit or a costume or what have you

 

[Luigi The President]

I'm hoping Sakurai and Nintendo looked at the Grinch leak (they no doubt know about it), and saw how positively it was received. It was basically a free way to determine the reactions to characters and if people would actually buy them.
If we get lucky, the Grinch could have still possibly affected future DLC

Every character in that roster who people actually cared about would've been already known to Sakurai.
Isaac? Assist Trophy. Out of the running.
Banjo-Kazooie? Obviously known to Sakurai. He's talked about him before.
Geno? In ****ing purgatory
Chorus Kids? 99% planned for 4.
Shadow? Assist Trophy.
Mach Rider? Also already known to Sakurai.

No reason for it to have influenced anything.

 

[Deleted member]

I hope to find any day a stage mod that feels cool and isn’t a clone of Battlefield or Final Destination.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

I think the way assist trophy reveals were done was absolutely awful. Why not deconfirm Shadow and isaac at E3? Why let people speculate on these two popular characters for this long? If the bandaid was ripped off before the ridley reveal, it all would've been fine. But why wait this long? What was the point of getting our hopes up?

Pulling a fast one on anybody trying to 'leak' those characters. I dunno. Also that'd be a LOT of Pokeballs/Assist Trophies to clog up a single Direct with.

 

[Luigi The President]

I think the way assist trophy reveals were done was absolutely awful. Why not deconfirm Shadow and isaac at E3? Why let people speculate on these two popular characters for this long? If the bandaid was ripped off before the ridley reveal, it all would've been fine. But why wait this long? What was the point of getting our hopes up?

Was incredibly dumb imo I totally agree with you.
Shadow I can understand since no one expected or really requested him too much until E3.

But Isaac? What the **** lol

 

[Deleted member]

I still want a toggle for Pokeball Pokemon.

Also wish there was Ultra Beasts!

 

[Luigi The President]

I mean I've seen some pretty convincing ones. The Project M team made an almost complete Knuckles and Lyn, and an Isaac that was close to being convincing (just unfinished).

Legacy XP has a semi decent Geno.

It depends on how good of a mod team starts to work on Ultimate a few years after release. And if it's the only way Isaac fans or Geno fans can enjoy their characters, then it is what it is, especially since this is probably the peak smash game in terms of representation anyway.

Don't matter. Lemme give you my perspective;

With a modded Geno I will not...
-have the Sakurai magic. The taunts, the bells and whistles like a victory screen or a classic mode route or a quality splash screen.
-be able to play him at tournaments
-be able to play him online
-know that our voices were heard-if I have to play a modded Geno it just confirms to me he'll never actually be in.

That's how I feel.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

It would be neat and some kind of good detail.

I would love for Alfendi to show up again, he was the 2nd best Layton

 

[TreeBranch]

Every character in that roster who people actually cared about would've been already known to Sakurai.
Isaac? Assist Trophy. Out of the running.
Banjo-Kazooie? Obviously known to Sakurai. He's talked about him before.
Geno? In ****ing purgatory
Chorus Kids? 99% planned for 4.
Shadow? Assist Trophy.
Mach Rider? Also already known to Sakurai.

No reason for it to have influenced anything.

I suppose you're right, but at least Mach Rider was boosted a bit.
I just want this roster lol

 

[Deleted member]

I think the way assist trophy reveals were done was absolutely awful. Why not deconfirm Shadow and isaac at E3? Why let people speculate on these two popular characters for this long? If the bandaid was ripped off before the ridley reveal, it all would've been fine. But why wait this long? What was the point of getting our hopes up?

I feel like that's taking it too personally. The reveals weren't done to "get hopes up", they were evenly distributed throughout the year to hype the game up. The problem is more on the us, the fans: We hype ourselves up with theories, headcanons, and rumors that we then convince ourselves are fact, and then get angry when things don't go our way. We really have no one to blame but ourselves for getting worked up over rumors and theories.

 

[SmashChu]

I think the way assist trophy reveals were done was absolutely awful. Why not deconfirm Shadow and isaac at E3? Why let people speculate on these two popular characters for this long? If the bandaid was ripped off before the ridley reveal, it all would've been fine. But why wait this long? What was the point of getting our hopes up?

Disconnect. Sakurai sees Assist Trophies as "Here are characters you like but we just couldn't add them." Fans see it as "You know that character you love, well know it's dead". I think the assist trophy concept needs a massive rework or become something different. As someone who plays with items with friends, I'll probably turn off assist trophies.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm gonna say this once, I know its Sakurai's game, I respect the man and all but this is the only time I'll say it where he screwed the pooch. As a K. Rool fan who is happy that he made the cut, I don't think its fair that we got him yet the Isaac fans got that slap in the face again. Why bring him back as an assist if he was absent in Sm4sh?

The least he could had done was given Isaac since he's been demanded as long as K. Rool and Ridley were. They deserved their golden boy.

 

[Luigi The President]

I feel like that's taking it too personally. The reveals weren't done to "get hopes up", they were evenly distributed throughout the year to hype the game up. The problem is more on the us, the fans: We hype ourselves up with theories, headcanons, and rumors that we then convince ourselves are fact, and then get angry when things don't go our way. We really have no one to blame but ourselves for getting worked up over rumors and theories.

Honestly dude it's a bit different when it's ****ing /Isaac/ and I think that's fairly obvious
I'm not gonna say "well actually WE were the problem" when the team decided to hide away Isaac, one of the most requested Smash characters ever, who hadn't returned in 4, as an assist trophy in the final Direct.
It was just a dumb decision. Nothing deeper. Doesn't change how good the game is at ALL. Just was a dumb decision for them to make.

 

[ClaTheBae]

I want the Grinch leaker to come forward so bad. I need this person to tell us how they did it.
I have a lot of questions, but the only thing I really want to know is why? Why go through this much effort?
Did they intend to put the community in disarray? How much of it was coincidence?

 

[Luigi The President]

I want the Grinch leaker to come forward so bad. I need this person to tell us how they did it.
I have a lot of questions, but the only thing I really want to know is why? Why go through this much effort?
Did they intend to put the community in disarray? How much of it was coincidence?

Lemme give you a general answer; for the fame.
And they got it.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

I want the Grinch leaker to come forward so bad. I need this person to tell us how they did it.
I have a lot of questions, but the only thing I really want to know is why? Why go through this much effort?
Did they intend to put the community in disarray? How much of it was coincidence?

I would much rather tell him/her how much of a gut punch his/her fake leak was to have Isaac, Shadow, Geno, etc supporters hopes up so high and only to have it come down in flames.

 

[ClaTheBae]

I feel like that's taking it too personally. The reveals weren't done to "get hopes up", they were evenly distributed throughout the year to hype the game up. The problem is more on the us, the fans: We hype ourselves up with theories, headcanons, and rumors that we then convince ourselves are fact, and then get angry when things don't go our way. We really have no one to blame but ourselves for getting worked up over rumors and theories.

This is Sakurai's third Smash game in the internet era. He's not oblivious to how we act. He knows that we theorize and he knows what we want. Deconfirming wanted characters last minute contributed to how weak the overall direct was. It should've been done from the get-go, like with Waluigi.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Just sayin', if there is only one DQ composer, the music is gonna cause controversy, and Nintendo obviously doesn't want any sort-of relation to all that stuff.

There is the phrase "separate the art from the artist," but...I saw a bit of controversy over A Hat in Time because of JonTron voicing a character in it, even though he wouldn't gain any profits from the game's sales (I wouldn't want to support the guy, either, and luckily buying the game wouldn't actually support him); though, the "controversy" was very minor, but this composer potentially actually receiving a profit from the music in the DLC, and then there's his political views...

Again, nothing against the DQ games themselves (Slime even has me interested, sucks that the composer seems to be a jerk though), but since people want to narrow down possible choices...

Honestly I just saw the composer brought up elsewhere on these forums, but it makes sense, and I remember talk about him before.

I want the Grinch leaker to come forward so bad. I need this person to tell us how they did it.
I have a lot of questions, but the only thing I really want to know is why? Why go through this much effort?
Did they intend to put the community in disarray? How much of it was coincidence?

I think the Grinch Leak came from Mariotehplumber and his friends.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Lemme give you a general answer; for the fame.
And they got it.

I mean, nobody claimed it, which is the weirdest part. Not even an anonymous post proving they were the original authors.

There is no fame if you don't claim it.

 

[ClaTheBae]

Lemme give you a general answer; for the fame.
And they got it.

Why have fame as an anonymous leaker? Just to sit back and go "haha losers"?

 

[Curious Villager]

Curious Villager What if, if layton was in smash, his victory pose is of him with Kat and Alfendi on that note, you think Al will ever show up outisde of Brothers and be mentioned outside of Lady Layton?

They did tease Alfendi in LMJ after you 100% complete the game so I suppose we could be seeing him in the main series at some point.
In regards to Layton's victory, I don't know. I kinda feel like Luke would most likely show up in Layton's victory screen. Maybe Flora and/or Emmy too.
Maybe young Katrielle though?

 

[Potato_]

Honestly dude it's a bit different when it's ****ing /Isaac/ and I think that's fairly obvious
I'm not gonna say "well actually WE were the problem" when the team decided to hide away Isaac, one of the most requested Smash characters ever, who hadn't returned in 4, as an assist trophy in the final Direct.
It was just a dumb decision. Nothing deeper. Doesn't change how good the game is at ALL. Just was a dumb decision for them to make.

I really wish Skull Kid was shown in the August direct. Instead we got the Moon AT and literally no view of him at all which led to so much speculation all for nothing.

I feel like Isaac suffered exactly the same fate, except it was even worse because he was so highly voted on the ballot. Combine that with the sprout item and literally no hint of Golden Sun at all and people understandably started to get their hopes up.

And that's not even mentioning the damn Grinch Leak.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly dude it's a bit different when it's ****ing /Isaac/ and I think that's fairly obvious
I'm not gonna say "well actually WE were the problem" when the team decided to hide away Isaac, one of the most requested Smash characters ever, who hadn't returned in 4, as an assist trophy in the final Direct.
It was just a dumb decision. Nothing deeper. Doesn't change how good the game is at ALL. Just was a dumb decision for them to make.

Yeaaaah...I'm not so sure about that.

Isaac is a popular pick to super hardcore fans, yes, but outside the Smash speculation bubble? Probably not that big of a deal, I'm afraid. Plus, Sakurai does not perceive ATs nearly as negatively as we do. To him, it's a way of saying "I couldn't make them playable, but here they are as an assist! You can enjoy seeing them in the game and have them help you!" It's a way of throwing in more content for fans to enjoy. Sadly, though, nobody in the core fandom takes it that way. Some even go so far as to take it as a personal slight.

 

[Luigi The President]

I mean, nobody claimed it, which is the weirdest part. Not even an anonymous post proving they were the original authors.

There is no fame if you don't claim it.

No, there is.
Every time the Grinch Leak is posted they will know it was all them who did it.
And for most people that's all they need.

Why have fame as an anonymous leaker? Just to sit back and go "haha losers"?

Yep!

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

Just to sit back and go "haha losers"?

There are people out there that would do that unfortunately.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Dragon Quest's musical issues is my main thing making me think it's not that particular series as the Square Rep.

They can barely weasel music out of him for the official games. You expect me to believe they weaseled five songs out of him for Smash Brothers?

I'm still sticking to the feeling the Square rep is either Geno or Sora.

 

[Good Guy Giygas]

I want the Grinch leaker to come forward so bad. I need this person to tell us how they did it.
I have a lot of questions, but the only thing I really want to know is why? Why go through this much effort?
Did they intend to put the community in disarray? How much of it was coincidence?

Wait, did they not come forward? I could've sworn I saw a post about it, but I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it... Maybe I'm just misremembering though.

 

[Paperchampion23]

No, there is.
Every time the Grinch Leak is posted they will know it was all them who did it.
And for most people that's all they need.


Yep!

But for most people that's not how it goes lol. 99% of all fake leaks have someone come out to talk about how they did it, even anonymously

 

[New_Dumal]

You are ignoring Smash speculation is good for Nintendo.
Videos and more videos about who can make the cut, leaks and more leaks about the major lacking characters, all this kind of stuff.
Nintendo want you to build the hype, to anxiously wait for your character to be or not to be part of the roster.
They know most people that builds the hype around Smash Bros will buy it regardless, so why to deconfirm subjects like Isaac and Shadow and lower the expectations ? Keeping both of them in the shadow while the era of speculation was progressing is a smart move, because people would tune in and talk about this characters.
While it's possible to assume that Isaac was not ready at the E3 build (he's changed from Brawl), Shadow was.
Shadow was kinda hinted because they chose to first show Knuckles at E3 and then later show "Dark Samus" as a echo, also "Ritcher" (a echo from a third party), etc. The proof that they were messing with the concept of Shadow being an echo is that he was the first AT to appear in this last direct. It's not a coincidence.

 

[Luigi The President]

Yeaaaah...I'm not so sure about that.

Isaac is a popular pick to super hardcore fans, yes, but outside the Smash speculation bubble? Probably not that big of a deal, I'm afraid. Plus, Sakurai does not perceive ATs nearly as negatively as we do. To him, it's a way of saying "I couldn't make them playable, but here they are as an assist! You can enjoy seeing them in the game and have them help you!" It's a way of throwing in more content for fans to enjoy. Sadly, though, nobody in the core fandom takes it that way. Some even go so far as to take it as a personal slight.

I'm ngl I see this for like literally every character this cycle. Apparently every character is only requested in a bubble now which just. Isn't true lol. By this logic Ridley and K. Rool are the same deal.

Sakurai's team seems very aware of the fans wants this games so I'm absolutely standing by them saving Isaac for so long as a stupid decision. Sakurai can see it however he wants; there's a ton of people making these videos and these AT's. It just confounds me nobody more "hip" spoke up sooner.

But for most people that's not how it goes lol. 99% of all fake leaks have someone come out to talk about how they did it, even anonymously

And most people have nowhere NEAR the impact the Grinch Leak did.

 

[Flyboy]

Honestly dude it's a bit different when it's ****ing /Isaac/ and I think that's fairly obvious
I'm not gonna say "well actually WE were the problem" when the team decided to hide away Isaac, one of the most requested Smash characters ever, who hadn't returned in 4, as an assist trophy in the final Direct.
It was just a dumb decision. Nothing deeper. Doesn't change how good the game is at ALL. Just was a dumb decision for them to make.

I guess on one perspective sure, but I dunno. To me it seemed like they thought his return was a cool big deal for fans. I really think the way we see ATs and the way they see ATs is just completely different.

Like yeah I wish he was playable too and maybe having him revealed from the getgo would've been better but I dunno, it seems more complex than we give it credit for.

 

[Luigi The President]

Dragon Quest's musical issues is my main thing making me think it's not that particular series as the Square Rep.

They can barely weasel music out of him for the official games. You expect me to believe they weaseled five songs out of him for Smash Brothers?

I'm still sticking to the feeling the Square rep is either Geno or Sora.

Yea seriously. And from what I get it's a single build worldwide so the music can't vary in different territories.
Music is the key here for DQ's inclusion.