Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[RyuhoFox]

In more recent times...

My favorite lizard waifu

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I hate Zero Suit in concept already, even before the actual Zero Suit itself, "beat the game early to get this woman to strip more" is just distasteful, it always has been(and I don't think I jeed to get onto the heels). And then to add an alternate moveset of Samus into Smash is just... why? Her moveset is unique, sure, but everything aside from the paralyzer is original to Smash. It's not even an alternate version of a character like the Links, it's just Samus without her Power Suit. I could get the idea behind a transforming FS in Brawl somewhat but eh...
And also, why does Samus never speak without her Power Suit on but does without it? That just becomes an odd contradiction and I'd rather have them decide on whether to go with Silent Badass or just give Samus some voicelines.
And it certainly doesn't help she was incredibly annoying in Smash 4 to deal with.

Everything about ZSS just bugs me in the wrong way, from the sexualization, odd concept for a fighter, inconsistency with Power Suit Samus and lack of ingame balance, and it adds up to one of my least favorite characters in all of Smash, which is a shame because I really love Metroid and Samus herself as a character.

As a 20-year Metroid vet, Samus being a sexually attractive woman has never bothered me. There's nothing wrong with a person or character being made up to be sexually desirable either. That's perfectly within the scope of things humans are interested in.

Maybe what you mean to say is that it objectifies her? To say that it strips Samus of her own humanity would require the player ignoring everything that they experience playing as Samus in her power suit. If a player objectified her despite, then that would reflect more on the player themselves.

You might say her personality is dwarfed by her sexuality, but the motif of the series is extreme isolation, and, ignoring the weakest games in the series, Samus being mute is one of the lengths they go. Absolutely everything in all Metroid games is hostile to a loner character. There is supposed to be a certain sense of dread while you play. It would be perpendicular to the tone of the series to have a character have their own thought bubbles. So, as a necessity, Samus has a rather unexplored personality.

I'm not convinced sanitizing the presentation of the sexual/sexually desirable woman is or has been a good thing. It's true sometimes people need to be reminded that women are people too, but sometimes people need to be reminded women even exist. We have to be practical about our victories. In hindsight, it would have sucked to lose Lara Croft even with her six polygon breasts. Without six polygon-breasted Lara Croft, we wouldn't have the Lara Croft of today. Sex sells, and it sells well enough to keep women in the picture over men sometimes.

Also, the least amount of clothing Samus has ever worn isn't even an end game reward. It's when she 'dies' in Super Metroid. So much for a bodysuit reward...

 

[KMDP]

I guess they wanted to keep Mario's gender a secret too, what's your point?

My point is that the developers of Metroid wanted to keep Samus' sex a secret, so they just didn't mention it and allowed the intricacies of the language to mask it until the End Screen.

This is a very common story-telling device in Japanese media, because the language allows it (unlike English media, where constantly referring to someone as "they" or "that person" becomes suspicious).

Sakurai likely did the same thing in Smash 64 to reference that particular point of Samus' gaming history, the fact that the English localisers missed this is irrelevant.

The only time in gameplay you can see Samus is a woman in 64 is the sparse instances where she's being electrocuted (which is like a frame or two).

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I can't tell if this is supposed to be ironic...

If it is, idk how I did it seeing how I just woke up and Im probably talking gibberish right now.

if Its stupid of me to even say that, I take full responsibility pff

 

[PsySmasher]

Choose one:
-Bandana Dee
-Paper Mario
-Poochy
-Edelgard
-Waluigi

Bandana Dee 1st easily.
Edelgard 2nd.
I don't care about the rest.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even with Ridley and Dark Samus in, both which I've always said should have very clear priority as far as Metroid newcomers go, I'm still not really feeling Sylux in Smash. Metroid is a series with a somewhat stable cast and is perfectly represented in Smash as is, Samus (x2) and Ridley are the main reoccuring characters while Dark Samus is the main villain of its incredibly popular subseries, in comparison Sylux still has a lot to prove, and I feel like it's best to wait until we've seen if he'll leave a noteworthy footprint on the series before talking about him getting into Smash.

I can better understand these sort of promotional inclusions when it comes to Pokémon, Fire Emblem or Xenoblade as their main cast changes from game to game, but with Metroid it's not really the same, Samus and (probably) Ridley will already promote Prime 4 just fine.

For me, Sylux is interchangeable with any major character who could appear in MP4. I wouldn't object to his inclusion, but I have little to no attachment to his character.

Although, I do think a character who's heavily associated with MP4 alone would be much more effective in promoting MP4 than Samus or Ridley. With the latter two, their presence could be used as a generic promotion for just about every Metroid game, whereas a MP4 character would be specifically targeted toward a single game.

*Obligatory Zinith reminder that Yoshi's Crafted World could work for a promotional rep*

In all seriousness, I'm not really sure if YCF is a game Nintendo would care about promoting through a character. Poochy and Kamek are series regulars, so the effects of adding either of the two as a promotional character likely wouldn't be as effective as someone who's mainly tied down to a single game (Gen VIII Pokemon, Edelgard, etc.)

Same goes for Luigi's Mansion 3 getting a newcomer.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

As far as I know, languages aren't so interested in sex as much as gender. A lot of Western languages make a big deal about using different pronouns for men and women but

i think it was french that give pronouns for everything, If I remeber correctly. Idk if thats related to the topic but I found it pretty intresting

 

[KMDP]

As a 20-year Metroid vet, Samus being a sexually attractive woman has never bothered me. There's nothing wrong with a person or character being made up to be sexually desirable either. That's perfectly within the scope of things humans are interested in.

Maybe what you mean to say is that it objectifies her? To say that it strips Samus of her own humanity would require the player ignoring everything that they experience playing as Samus in her power suit. If a player objectified her despite, then that would reflect more on the player themselves.

You might say her personality is dwarfed by her sexuality, but the motif of the series is extreme isolation, and, ignoring the weakest games in the series, Samus being mute is one of the lengths they go. Absolutely everything in all Metroid games is hostile to a loner character. There is supposed to be a certain sense of dread while you play. It would be perpendicular to the tone of the series to have a character have their own thought bubbles. So, as a necessity, Samus has a rather unexplored personality.

I'm not convinced sanitizing the presentation of the sexual/sexually desirable woman is or has been a good thing. It's true sometimes people need to be reminded that women are people too, but sometimes people need to be reminded women even exist. We have to be practical about our victories. In hindsight, it would have sucked to lose Lara Croft even with her six polygon breasts. Without six polygon-breasted Lara Croft, we wouldn't have the Lara Croft of today. Sex sells, and it sells well enough to keep women in the picture over men sometimes.

Also, the least amount of clothing Samus has ever worn isn't even an end game reward. It's when she 'dies' in Super Metroid. So much for a bodysuit reward...

Considering the "isolation" angle of the Metroid series, one could consider Samus taking off all her armour to give a sense of liberation from the hostility of the game,

Under this mindset, the idea that she doesn't take all her armour off at lower percentages gives the feeling that there's unfinished business.

A non-sexual way to interpret the Metroid end screens (of course, this isn't mutually exclusive to the idea that it's a reward for titillation purposes).

 

[Deleted member]

Oh good lord, are we really arguing about stupid **** like this again? Come on guys. Samus is woman. She has boobs. So does literally every other female character in fiction. No one cares.

 

[MSmariosonic]

My point is that the developers of Metroid wanted to keep Samus' sex a secret, so they just didn't mention it and allowed the intricacies of the language to mask it until the End Screen.

This is a very common story-telling device in Japanese media, because the language allows it (unlike English media, where constantly referring to someone as "they" or "that person" becomes suspicious).

Sakurai likely did the same thing in Smash 64 to reference that particular point of Samus' gaming history, the fact that the English localisers missed this is irrelevant.

The only time in gameplay you can see Samus is a woman in 64 is the sparse instances where she's being electrocuted (which is like a frame or two).

Not only that but the french character description of samus in ssb64 also uses a male pronoun... kinda

 

[Deleted member]

Also, the least amount of clothing Samus has ever worn isn't even an end game reward. It's when she 'dies' in Super Metroid.

I'm not sure that makes it any better...
And regardless of whatever character or story trait or whatever, it doesn't change the fact the faster the player finishes the game, the more they're "rewarded" with. That's an intentional objetification from the devs and regardless if it was "necessary" or not(and I really don't like using this because it hits too close to real women having to sell themselves for success but that's another topic), it doesn't excuse or justify it being distasteful and disrespectful.

My point is that the developers of Metroid wanted to keep Samus' sex a secret, so they just didn't mention it and allowed the intricacies of the language to mask it until the End Screen.

This is a very common story-telling device in Japanese media, because the language allows it (unlike English media, where constantly referring to someone as "they" or "that person" becomes suspicious).

Sakurai likely did the same thing in Smash 64 to reference that particular point of Samus' gaming history, the fact that the English localisers missed this is irrelevant.

The only time in gameplay you can see Samus is a woman in 64 is the sparse instances where she's being electrocuted (which is like a frame or two).

You're going to real big lenghts with "they didn't want everyone to know that thing everyone knows about" just to justify "Samus doesn't speak".

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

wait hold.up, the VGA nominee's are tomorrow?

 

[osby]

i think it was french that give pronouns for everything, If I remeber correctly. Idk if thats related to the topic but I found it pretty intresting

German and Spanish also had it, if I recall correctly. English is more lax, since everything is "the". In some languages like Turkish, you don't even need pronouns, since you can 'hide' them in verbs.

Considering the "isolation" angle of the Metroid series, one could consider Samus taking off all her armour to give a sense of liberation from the hostility of the game,

Under this mindset, the idea that she doesn't take all her armour off at lower percentages gives the feeling that there's unfinished business.

A non-sexual way to interpret the Metroid end screens (of course, this isn't mutually exclusive to the idea that it's a reward for titillation purposes).

Out of context of Metroid: I just like whip fighters.

Oh good lord, are we really arguing about stupid **** like this again? Come on guys. Samus is woman. She has boobs. So does literally every other female character in fiction. No one cares.

 

[Deleted member]

GAME: EVERYONE IS HERE
You have 6 DLC picks to make.
2 picks for each company.
What are your choices?

View attachment 177288

Square: Geno and Sora
Namco: Klonoa and Agumon
Sega: Tails and Ristar

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

wait hold.up, the VGA nominee's are tomorrow?

Yup, expect an utter lack of Smash Bros, unfortunately

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, I didn't say they had to be existant.

 

[osby]

I'm not sure that makes it any better...
And regardless of whatever character or story trait or whatever, it doesn't change the fact the faster the player finishes the game, the more they're "rewarded" with. That's an intentional objetification from the devs and regardless if it was "necessary" or not(and I really don't like using this because it hits too close to real women having to sell themselves for success but that's another topic), it doesn't excuse or justify it being distasteful and disrespectful.

I mean, you can say Legend of Zelda, Super Mario and Kid Icarus also rewards the player with the affection of female characters. A lot of old video games did similar stuff.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

wait hold.up, the VGA nominee's are tomorrow?

Yeah, they mentioned it on Twitter in the previous week.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I'm not sure that makes it any better...
And regardless of whatever character or story trait or whatever, it doesn't change the fact the faster the player finishes the game, the more they're "rewarded" with. That's an intentional objetification from the devs and regardless if it was "necessary" or not(and I really don't like using this because it hits too close to real women having to sell themselves for success but that's another topic), it doesn't excuse or justify it being distasteful and disrespectful.

You're going to real big lenghts with "they didn't want everyone to know that thing everyone knows about" just to justify "Samus doesn't speak".

This begs the question, Why is it distasteful and disrespectful?

 

[MSmariosonic]

I mean, you can say Zelda, Mario and Kid Icarus also rewards the player with the affection of female characters. A lot of old video games did similar stuff.

It's almost like it was a male dominated market

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, so the VGA's are tomorrow. *yawn* Let me know if the Smash annoucement actually happens.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, so the VGA's are tomorrow. *yawn* Let me know if the Smash announcement actually happens.

VGA's aren't until December 6th, 1 day before Ultimate. What's happening tomorrow is the announcement of the Nominees.

 

[Graizen]

Im betting on Crono 60% and Sora 40%

 

[Deleted member]

VGA's aren't until December 6th, 1 day before Ultimate. What's happening tomorrow is the announcement of the Nominees.

Ah. Still, not paying attention to the Game Awards at all.

 

[osby]

It's almost like it was a male dominated market

I mean, yeah. In-story, Samus never really had any problem with removing her armor and she's a grown*** woman so I don't have a problem with it even now.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Yup, expect an utter lack of Smash Bros, unfortunately

I wonder if Ill see any games I actaully have. I was happy about the last VGA, Persona 5 winning a few awards and Nintendo winning a lot of awards

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, you can say Legend of Zelda, Super Mario and Kid Icarus also rewards the player with the affection of female characters. A lot of old video games did similar stuff.

And you'd be right on the money about that. I mean, a lot of games still do it today.

This begs the question, Why is it distasteful and disrespectful?

Because it objectifies Samus's body as a reward for the player to get. It's not that deep.

 

[Gyrom8]

Yup, expect an utter lack of Smash Bros, unfortunately

Gonna miss the VGAs (lol timezones) but wouldn't mind if it's the expected Square Enix rep as I'm really not fussed who it is and would like the speculation around them to end sooner rather than later.

The first DLC character should be announced sometime soonish anyways, as it would probably help sales of the season pass.

 

[KMDP]

i think it was french that give pronouns for everything, If I remeber correctly. Idk if thats related to the topic but I found it pretty intresting

I think gendered pronouns probably go back as far as Latin.

But French does use gendered pronouns way more than English.

German and Spanish also had it, if I recall correctly. English is more lax, since everything is "the". In some languages like Turkish, you don't even need pronouns, since you can 'hide' them in verbs.

Italian too, I think.

I mean, yeah. In-story, Samus never really had any problem with removing her armor and she's a grown*** woman so I don't have a problem with it even now.

Going along with the liberation thing I brought up, it can also represent that now that the mission is over, Samus is able to be herself.

Because Samus isn't always a badass, armour wearing bounty-hunter. Sometimes she's just a woman lounging around her house in whatever feels comfortable at the time.
--------------------
Regardless, I really, really have to go to bed. I meant to go hours ago.

 

[PsySmasher]

GAME: EVERYONE IS HERE
You have 6 DLC picks to make.
2 picks for each company.
What are your choices?

View attachment 177288

Square: Agnes and 2B
Bandai Namco: KOS-MOS and Lloyd
Sega: Tails and Eggman

 

[JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL]

It's by Sony animation the people who made the Smurfs. Of course they're going to have some random human alongside Sonic.

You're so behind on Sonic movie news it hurts.

 

[RyuhoFox]

Samus doesn't speak because she doesn't need to. lol. She gets crap done and gets out, normally while exploding whatever planet she was previously standing on. Fusions inner monologues on the elevators and the data stations was alright but otherwise there really isn't much reason for her to speak in the games imo.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

is no one gonna ask the actual girls how they feel about samus taking her armor off?

no?
ok

 

[Deleted member]

So I can honestly see the DLC going one of three ways: either they continue down the road of Fanservice that they went down for the base roster, they go full Promo and be boring, or a mix of both.

 

[CannonStreak]

You're so behind on Sonic movie news it hurts.

Yeah, isn’t Paramount doing the Sonic movie now?

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Kinda hope they pull overnighters to put random tripping back in.

 

[MSmariosonic]

is no one gonna ask the actual girls how they feel about samus taking her armor off?

no?
ok

Allrighty then

how do the girls feel when Samus takes her armor off?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

is no one gonna ask the actual girls how they feel about samus taking her armor off?

no?
ok

Cyn

 

[osby]

I think gendered pronouns probably go back as far as Latin.

But French does use gendered pronouns way more than English.

Italian too, I think.

Going along with the liberation thing I brought up, it can also represent that now that the mission is over, Samus is able to be herself.

Because Samus isn't always a badass, armour wearing bounty-hunter. Sometimes she's just a woman lounging around her house in whatever feels comfortable at the time.
--------------------
Regardless, I really, really have to go to bed. I meant to go hours ago.

Good night.

is no one gonna ask the actual girls how they feel about samus taking her armor off?

no?
ok

All of them?

So I can honestly see the DLC going one of three ways: either they continue down the road of Fanservice that they went down for the base roster, they go full Promo and be boring, or a mix of both.

I think both would be boring, mix please.

 

[Deleted member]

Allrighty then

how do the girls feel when Samus takes her armor off?

"I don't really care but why tf was she wearing a bikini"- my sister when I asked her just now