Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Bradli Wartooth]

I saw someone call King Dedede and Meta Knight villains.

Now they have been antagonists but their good deeds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overshadow their bad.

Calling them villains is a disservice to the characters.

Yeah I always saw MK and Dedede as morally ambiguous. Their role in games change between hero and "villain", but they're more just rivals of Kirby than anything who are more than willing to help him oftentimes.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

not sure if I'd be able to truly comprehend the form of how Giygas would attack...

****ed up mind attacks that embodies the very essence of nightmares.

 

[CBO0tz]

I saw someone call King Dedede and Meta Knight villains.

Now they have been antagonists but their good deeds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overshadow their bad.

Calling them villains is a disservice to the characters.

uh.. the disservice that they both started off as antagonists?

 

[Ghirahilda]

My most wanted Villains for now
- King Krusha Roll
- Medusa
- Veronica (Fire Emblem Heroes)

Edit:
- Kamek
- Sylux
-Plasm Wraith

 

[Swamp Sensei]

uh.. the disservice that they both started off as antagonists?

Antagonist =/= villain

Regardless, they've blatantly redeemed themselves by now.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I saw someone call King Dedede and Meta Knight villains.

Now they have been antagonists but their good deeds WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overshadow their bad.

Calling them villains is a disservice to the characters.

To be fair, smash seems to have still considered King dedede a villian even into smash 4. I don't agree with it, but it does.
Edit: whoops wrong number

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Also something to be noted with Tiki, she is one of 4 Fire Emblem characters to have non-Smash Amiibo (Chrom, Tiki, Alm, Celica), and she was one of the first 2 (Chrom, Tiki). I think it's fairly clear Nintendo at least sees her as a notable character in the franchise.

 

[Troykv]

To be fair, smash seems to have still considered King dedede a villian even into smash 4. I don't agree with it, but it does.
Edit: whoops wrong number

Well, Dedede kind of played a Villan and a Hero role in SSE.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

To be fair, smash seems to have still considered King dedede a villian even into smash 4. I don't agree with it, but it does.

Eh? He was a hero in SSE.

As was Meta Knight.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Dedede is essentially to Kirby what Bowser would be to Mario if Bowser would just chill for a damn second. Bowser's not inherently evil and doesn't believe himself to be evil but he keeps doing things that in Mario's eyes are ''Dude chill. This is evil."

Dedede is essentially Bowser if Bowser would just get the memo from being invited to all the sports games and calm the **** down. Neither have done inherently evil things in their own story they're just doing what they think is right, the only difference is Dedede has said ''You know what Kirby? I should chill."

 

[vaanrose]

I think people are sleeping hard on Dragon Quest. Last year's Dragon Quest game sold more than Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild (in Japan, of course). It's one of the most beloved video game franchises in Japan, and while it may not be as big in the west, it's not exactly obscure, either.

 

[Deleted member]

Apparently he had a model with a body in StarFox Zero, and I’m seeing pics of it online, but I played Zero and totally missed it.

Not an actual body.
Just a cloak and wires.

 

[Lyndis_]

If King Dedede can be considered a villain, then Kirby can too.

Anyone ever play the Puyo Puyo/Puyo Pop reskin Kirby's Avalanche?

http://kirby.wikia.com/wiki/Kirby's_Avalanche_(transcript)

Spoiler: Kirby is mean

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Kirby has ended dozens of innocent lives over a piece of shortcake. He's as much a villain as anyone else in that world.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

In fact if you look at most Nintendo villains you'll find very few of them are actually TRUE villains. Andross, Ridley, and Ganon/Ganondorf are the only ones I'd call TRULY evil. K. Rool may also be truly evil.

But more often than not the main iconic villains of Nintendo are all people who are actually good in their own eyes. And that's why they're so fascinating to us, because that's one of the things a lot of writing classes teach. The best villains and antagonists aren't actually antagonists in their own story.

 

[DGAMER]

The villain representation is something that Smash lacks. I would like to see more, but they should first give some changes to a already existing villain who is extremely out of character if you know what I mean... (Yes. I want a Ganondorf rework before any other villains are added)

King Dedede and Meta Knight are slight antagonists who can take a protagonist role should the game require it. They might be antagonists under the control of a more concerning villain. I consider them to be antagonists.

Even if they add another Kirby villain, I can tell you it probably won't be Marx, as I believe the not cute version is the more memorable aspect of him. It wouldn't do justice.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Eh? He was a hero in SSE.

As was Meta Knight.

I was referring more to event matches. One of brawl's final ones was about villians if I recall and it had Bowser, Ganondorf, and King dedede.

And smash 4 also had one:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Final_Battle_Team-Up

 

[SneakyLink]

I was referring more to event matches. One of brawl's final ones was about villians if I recall and it had Bowser, Ganondorf, and King dedede.

And smash 4 also had one:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Final_Battle_Team-Up

Didn’t Smash 4 also re use the Brawl event described here? Complete with same characters and stage?

 

[Starcutter]

My favorite villains are Dark Pit, Meta Knight and Turbo from Wreck it Ralph (just kidding)



But actually, I like Dark Matter and King K Rool

 

[vaanrose]

In fact if you look at most Nintendo villains you'll find very few of them are actually TRUE villains. Andross, Ridley, and Ganon/Ganondrof are the only ones I'd call TRULY evil. K. Rool may also be truly evil.

But more often than not the main iconic villains of Nintendo are all people who are actually good in their own eyes. And that's why they're so fascinating to us, because that's one of the things a lot of writing classes teach. The best villains and antagonists aren't actually antagonists in their own story.

The best version of Ganondorf is just a dude who hates sand.

 

[Danpal65]

The best version of Ganondorf is just a dude who hates sand.

So basically he is Anakin?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

The best version of Ganondorf is just a dude who hates sand.

"I hate sand. It's course and gets all up in my pants. Why do you think I'm wearing a robe now?"

 

[vaanrose]

So basically he is Anakin?

That's the joke

 

[MrReyes96]

there are still plenty of villains they could add in smash

K. Rool, Medusa, Hades, Wolf, Ganon (Pig Beast)

Granted they aren’t as iconic as Bowser and Ganondorf but smash helps characters become iconic :^)

 

[Deleted member]

Have you ever guys casually talked with your friends about what characters could be in Smash?

When i was in High School back in 2015 (when the Ballot was still open) i actually once tried to persuade a former friend of mine (he moved to another school the following year) to vote for K.Rool in the Ballot (i actually mentioned this way back in the K.Rool for SSB4 thread) and he mentioned characters like Steve from Sunset Riders (he couldn't remember the name of the game but that was the game he clearly meant) and Bayonetta (yeah you can guess how that went)

I found it interesing that he actually seemed familiar with Isaac from Golden Sun.

There was also this other time i talked about this in 2016 with fellow students in my classroom, and one of them mentioned Zero from Mega Man (there were other characters too, but i can't remember them).

 

[Polan]

All this talk about villains and I'm over here just wanting to see what the new Classic Mode final boss is going to be. It's gonna be hard to top Master Core.

 

[Fenriraga]

I feel like 's status as a villain each game depends on if the Waddle Dees got his morning coffee correctly.

For example, Battle Royale was them giving him Decaf.

 

[Delzethin]

I think people are sleeping hard on Dragon Quest. Last year's Dragon Quest game sold more than Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild (in Japan, of course). It's one of the most beloved video game franchises in Japan, and while it may not be as big in the west, it's not exactly obscure, either.

But is it big enough outside of Japan, I wonder, enough to overcome the hurdle that stopped Takamaru? And who from it would they choose? I admit I'm only somewhat familiar with the series, but Dragon Quest doesn't seem to have a standout protagonist in the vein of Cloud or Terra, and the Slimes would have issues with moveset potential...

 

[Hinata]

I would also like to point out that a lot of King Dedede's stints as "antagonist" can be chalked up to him being possessed by the villain of the week.

 

[The Animator]

All this talk about villains and I'm over here just wanting to see what the new Classic Mode final boss is going to be. It's gonna be hard to top Master Core.

I thought Master Core was lame, the hand was a great final boss as is, cartoony and spooky at the same time. Foating particle effects taking various shapes does nothing for me.

 

[Fenriraga]

I would also like to point out that a lot of King Dedede's stints as "antagonist" can be chalked up to him being possessed by the villain of the week.

Some, but not all.

There's absolutely more than one instance of him being the villain, but that seemed to be a thing of the past up until Battle Royale.

Dedede is the embodiment of this line, pretty much.

 

[Chiroz]

Glad to see Rex and Pyra that high and they are the second most requested Nintendo character. My friends did a poll a few weeks back and Rex and Pyra came in 2nd place overall, just under Ice Climbers.

I find it funny that this poll was "What newcomers do you want added" and yet somehow Ice Climbers, Snake and Wolf still made it pretty high on the list.

 

[Deleted member]

You know? the fact that we don't have that much time left for E3 (10 weeks) and that the game is beign released this year, makes me thing that Character trailers will be different from those seen in Smash 4. Depending on how is handled, we may see:

1-Brawl-style character trailers, where we see a trailer where multiple newcomers are revealed, but unlike Brawl, multiple trailers will appear.

2-Challenger approaching streams, similar to what happened with Robin, but more common (maybe with some sort of schedule) since i don't think you can fit all of the newcomers in every upcoming Direct (and im sure the newcomer number will NOT be bigger than Smash 4's)

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Some, but not all.

There's absolutely more than one instance of him being the villain, but that seemed to be a thing of the past up until Battle Royale.

Dedede is the embodiment of this line, pretty much.

Oddly enough I'd rather have Zangief as a Street Fighter ''bad guy" than Bison since you bring this gif and line up.

 

[Chiroz]

......that video clearly has a Spainard guy talking (im from Latin America, specifically Chile, and i can tell the difference between a spainard speaking spanish, and a latin american speaking spanish, wheter be mexican, chilean, argentinian, colombian, etc).

Here's an example of Spainard Spanish and Latin American Spanish (specifically from Mexico).

Spainards are to Latin Americans what the British (and Australians and/or other non-american countries where English is the main language) are to the North Americans (wheter be United States or Canada), they are not the same.

Oh and Dragon Ball is also a big deal in Spain as far as im concerned (not sure if it is as big as Latin America, but it still has a big following there) so it's completely feasible that Goku is a big deal there too (US actually jumped quite late to the DB ride, a lot of countries already watched the show from the beginning back in the 90's while US barely started watching DBZ in the early 2000's) .

Proof of this is the fact that in the poll Rosalina, Robin and Duck Hunt are named Estella, Daraen and Duo Duck Hunt (a literal translation of Duck Hunt Duo which is the EUROPEAN ENGLISH name of Duck Hunt), all of the characters in the Latin American version of SSB4 retain their American English names (expect for Zero Suit Samus and Wii Fit Trainer which are named "Samus Zero" and "Entrenador(a) de Wii Fit" in both the Latin American and Spainard versions of the game) If you don't belive me click the links that will direct you to the Latin American site of SSB4 and Spainard site of SSB4 respectively.


TL;DR This is not a Latin American Poll, it's a Spainard poll, don't get them confused.

Sorry if i sound rude and if get too off topic by the way.

While the video may be Spaniard, the site itself is visited mostly by Latin American countries, or at least I believe so. I might be biased since I am also from Latin America and I see the site used a bunch on casual communities from neighboring countries. It's from Nintenderos if you know the site.

 

[Lyndis_]

Some, but not all.

There's absolutely more than one instance of him being the villain, but that seemed to be a thing of the past up until Battle Royale.

Dedede is the embodiment of this line, pretty much.

To be fair, the only main Kirby games Dedede is an antagonist in (where he isn't possessed) are the first and Super Star.

Dedede's only motivation in Battle Royale is really just to get Kirby to lose his tournament (in a completely fair way) so everybody laughs at him, which I guess does count, but is still just too funny to me to consider anything really that evil.

Not any more evil than any other TO with a bias, I guess.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But is it big enough outside of Japan, I wonder, enough to overcome the hurdle that stopped Takamaru? And who from it would they choose? I admit I'm only somewhat familiar with the series, but Dragon Quest doesn't seem to have a standout protagonist in the vein of Cloud or Terra, and the Slimes would have issues with moveset potential...

Not really. Let's remember that Slimes have potential for tons of moves due to the series itself having tons of spells they can cast, even if it's mostly in spin-off material.

Here's a moveset I made some time ago. Not balanced that much, but shows what can potentially be done;

Spoiler: Slime Moveset

Slime
* Jump: 3/5
* Speed: 2/5
* Power: 4/5
* Colors: Red, Blue, Brown/Yellow(Rock Slime), Silver(Metal Slime), Black(Metal Slime)

* A: Slime Slap
* AA: Reverse Slime Slap
* AAA: Double Slime Slap
* Forward A: Slime Slice(Horizontal)
* Up A: Slime Whip
* Down A: LegSweep
* Smash A: Axeing for it (Diagonal Axe strike)
* Smash Up A: Firebal (Very similar to Samus' Smash Up A, except they come out all at once, more like an explosion)
* Smash Down A: Icebolt (A small line of cold goes on the floor. Anyone it hits might be frozen, but it makes the floor slippery otherwise)
* Air A: Slimy Spikes(Basically what it says. Emits a bunch of spikes and falls. Like a Gordo without shooting them off)
* Air Forward A: Infermos (A blast of air goes forward)
* Air Up A: Slime Whip redux
* Air Down A: Metal Slime (Drops downwards similar to Kirby's Down B)
* B: Big Bang (Chargeable: Does explosive damage. Very weak at first.)
* Forward B: Cut (Flashes forward doing a powerful slashing attack. This is based upon the various "Cut" moves)
* Up B: Sandstorn (Flies into the air, releasing sand that makes it hard for him to be hit.)
* Down B: Bounce (Reflects elemental attacks against the enemy. Does not affect non-ones.)
* Final Smash: Call (Calls down every possible Slime to attack the enemies.)
* Z: Slime Trap (Grabs the opponent with sticky tentacles)
* Z A: Slimey Slap
* Z Forward: Lushlick (Sends them forward, paralyzed for 4 seconds.)
* Z Up: Fireslash (Slashes them with pure fire, sending them upwards.)
* Z Down: Iceslash (You go up in the air a little, slashing them with coldness, possibly freezing them)
* Z Back: Windbeast (Blasts them backwards with a force of Air)

Other abilities: Glide (Grows wings and glides while in the air.)

 

[Deleted member]

I was referring more to event matches. One of brawl's final ones was about villians if I recall and it had Bowser, Ganondorf, and King dedede.

And smash 4 also had one:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Final_Battle_Team-Up

Only refers to them as "the bossiest of bosses" and "nasty rivals".
It doesn't label all of them as "villains".

 

[GaroMaster]

But is it big enough outside of Japan, I wonder, enough to overcome the hurdle that stopped Takamaru? And who from it would they choose? I admit I'm only somewhat familiar with the series, but Dragon Quest doesn't seem to have a standout protagonist in the vein of Cloud or Terra, and the Slimes would have issues with moveset potential...

There's also the matter about whether Cloud returns or not. Even if the amount of FF content in terms of songs and trophies was minimal, it's likely that Sakurai would prioritize Cloud over any other SE character given that he has already made an appearance in Smash and he was the most Final Fantasy character in the Ballot. Those live reactions to Cloud's trailer speak volumes to just how significant his announcement was.
I wouldn't entirely count a Dragon Quest character out, but the reasons that you suggested as well as Cloud's inclusion makes it a little hard to predict whether they'd be seriously considered.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Dedede is essentially to Kirby what Bowser would be to Mario if Bowser would just chill for a damn second. Bowser's not inherently evil and doesn't believe himself to be evil but he keeps doing things that in Mario's eyes are ''Dude chill. This is evil."

Dedede is essentially Bowser if Bowser would just get the memo from being invited to all the sports games and calm the **** down. Neither have done inherently evil things in their own story they're just doing what they think is right, the only difference is Dedede has said ''You know what Kirby? I should chill."

This.

Bowser is not a totally bad man. He travelled the entire globe to put together the perfect wedding for Peach. He got the single best cake, the single best ring, the single best flowers, and everything else, and to top it all of set it in a GORGEOUS chapel on the moon. If you’re going to tell me that Mario would do that for Peach and wouldn’t just have a wedding at the castle you’re out of your mind.

The only problem is that Bowser kidnapped her to make it happen. He should’ve just proposed and shown her everything he did.

THEN AGAIN THE MAN DIDN’T INVITE HIS OWN DAMN SON TO THE WEDDING