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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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It literally never has been though from the very start of Smash Bros.

We've had Pokemon and Yoshi from Day One.

There's more than one of Yoshi. There's more than one of Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

How ''generic" was ever a thing baffled me. It baffled me when it came up with Toad, it baffles me when it comes up with Bandana Waddle Dee, it just...

It baffles me.
I suppose while there have been plenty of ‘generic’ characters in smash, they all did have some sort of major role.
While there are many Yoshi, there is a recurring Yoshi who, more importantly, appears as a main character many games. Pikachu is a mascot based on Ash’s, Jigglypuff is the one from the anime, Lucario is the one from the movie. Greninja and Incineroar are addmitedly not based on one member of their species specifically, but I suppose one could argue the Pokemon are the exception that prove the rule as a whole.
I should note that I’m mainly playing devil’s advocate, I myself am fine with Pirahna plant, I’m merely trying to rationalise the arguments people have against it,
 
D

Deleted member

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Are you sure the fans wouldn't hate that their faves can get touched by male characters? We are talking about the same kind of fanbase that threatened to kill Kazuchika Okada with throwing knives because he dated a Love Live seiyuu.
iM@S fans and Love Live fans are different breeds. The latter is ravenous and their franchise is dead, while the former is thriving and wouldn't mind at all.
 

Ramen Tengoku

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yeah but pikachu is a mascot

and jigglypuff is Uh

and greninja is Um

incineroar is
Jigglypuff, Greninja, and Incineroar are in no way generic
Especially compared to other Pokemon from each of their respective generations...
Let's just say there's a reason why Tangela, Barbacle, and Morelull are not talked about too much
 
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N3ON

Gone Exploring
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I don't know about that, because it does seem to be ''WAAA. GENERIC ENEMY. WAAAAAAA. HE STOLE SPOT FROM -insert character who isn't prevalent or even that iconic-"

I mean I have my issues with him personally. I'm planning to pick him up and love him, but I think it would have been nice to see Toad or Paper Mario at least before him. Or of course Geno, for the fan want of it all.

But as it stands a lot of the complaints I'm seeing do seem to boil down to ''I hate him because I think he's generic and doesn't deserve the spot but -character from dead franchise-, -one off appearance character here- does!"
Juvenile characterization aside, that still doesn't mean they think he's some unknown character. It's strawmanning to suggest peoples' issues revolve around a lack of prevalence when the complaint is that he's a generic enemy and another character should've gotten in. Nowhere in that complaint is the issue of recognizability raised, it's a leap in logic to reach that conclusion.

Because, again, no one is conflating being generic with being unrecognizable. Except you, I suppose. I would task you with finding someone who claimed Piranha Plant was some obscure character. People take issue with its generic nature because so far, unless the character is a Pokemon, Smash has been devoid of grunt enemies. People are opposed to the idea because it goes against the standards of Smash as they see them. I'm not defending those opinions, because they're subjective, so don't bother arguing with that part. I'm just explaining the differing perspectives.

And I wouldn't contend with that last part, but you do see how that's not the same as saying he's obscure, right? Being generic and being unknown certainly aren't equivalent terms, and assuming anything past that is putting words in peoples' mouths. Let alone generalizing everyone who takes issue with the character as being under the impression they aren't well known.
 
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Tree Gelbman

100 Percent Done
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Most of the pokemon are more ... "characterry"
I mean, we can associate something to them, Pikachu has a playfull personality, Incineroar is a wrestler, Lucario is the generic cool silent guy.
It's hard to compare a character with any traits to a mook who never really got anything given to them before.
It's Mario though. Character traits are paper thin with just about everyone, even the main characters are boiled down to simple things like Mario is brave, Luigi is a scaredy cat, Peach is sweet, etc. Sure there's more to them than the generic enemies, but even they aren't fully fledged characters.

It's part of why Rosalina blew up more than any addition to the primary cast did before.

A bit of why Jr did too.

I'd argue those two have started something in which we're going to see more than just paper thin traits for Mario characters.

Because they had a little more oomph behind them with stories and backstories and traits that aren't just like Miyamoto looked in a Thesaurus and tried to pick something as a character trait.

And I say this as someone who loves Mario. Favorite gaming series, but complaining about a paper thin Mario addition is kind of ironic.
 

Idon

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Jigglypuff, Greninja, and Incineroar are in no way generic
Especially compared to other Pokemon from each of their respective generations...
Let's just say there's a reason why Tangela, Barbacle, and Morelull are not talked about too much
because they weren't relevant and marketed heavily.

If any of those 3 had the amount of cash put into them as Lucario did, you can bet your sweet ass they'd be characters.
 
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JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL

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He absolutely better be pulling our legs.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
I can't and won't buy the season pass if this is true
 

Luigi The President

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It's Mario though. Character traits are paper thin with just about everyone, even the main characters are boiled down to simple things like Mario is brave, Luigi is a scaredy cat, Peach is sweet, etc. Sure there's more to them than the generic enemies, but even they aren't fully fledged characters.

It's part of why Rosalina blew up more than any addition to the primary cast did before.

A bit of why Jr did too.

I'd argue those two have started something in which we're going to see more than just paper thin traits for Mario characters.

Because they had a little more oomph behind them with stories and backstories and traits that aren't just like Miyamoto looked in a Thesaurus and tried to pick something as a character trait.

And I say this as someone who loves Mario. Favorite gaming series, but complaining about a paper thin Mario addition is kind of ironic.
You ain't played Super Paper Mario or nah?
Some AMAZING characterization in that game

I get that it's a spin-off so it wouldn't really count though.

Mario is also my favorite series and I'm the type that characterizes the characters for myself haha. So I'm biased.
 

beans

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Smash gave these Pokemon personality.
Like it's giving the Plant personality.
I wouldnt say all of them. Some of them had something assigned to them from other mediums outside of Smash, like the anime or in-game representation

yeah because mario games have never given generic enemies personalities before
?
I dont really understand the point of the comment. Care to explain?
Also, I dunno about it. We can make some spin-off argument where we got characters that are menbers of a species like Kooper and Goombella
 

SuperSmashLover

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I’d argue thinking a character is too generic as a character is a perfectly valid complaint/thought.
I agree.

Smash Bros started out as a Nintendo ALL-STARS fighting game. Many of the wtf/forgotten characters of the series were tremendously important to the success of Nintendo over the years in one way or another.

With Brawl, they opened the door for non-Nintendo (but still iconic) characters in video game history.

With Smash Ultimate, we were starting to see a shift in how the game is meant to represent the past, present, and future of video gaming.

Even though nobody would be able to debate how recognizable Piranha Plant is, the character does not stand out on it's own and is rightfully recognized as a Mario franchise background character.

If we just let anyone in, might as well include every popular generic enemy from every series. It would be like adding Kremlin from Donkey Kong, or (just to spite Kirby fans) a regular old Waddle Dee.
 
D

Deleted member

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Sounds like they would all fit right into the Smash fandom, then!
So let me get this straight. If I were to draw a fanart of Mario poking and Idolmaster characters in the arm, nowhere inapropriate, just the arm, the fanbase of Idolmaster would go crazy in rage?
 

Wyoming

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yeah but pikachu is a mascot

and jigglypuff is Uh

and greninja is Um

incineroar is
All three of those were popular at the time of their inclusion.
I could even argue so was Pichu, hence he was even considered as one of the clones early into the Melee clone selection process.

Smash represents different eras of popularity and that's what I love about it.
 

Zinith

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I would argue that my boi has enough personality to have an attachment to him during gameplay. He's innocent, affectionate, loyal and humble. Sure that may not be a lot, but it's enough for a connection...

Plus, wait till you see the Woolly World 3DS shorts...


 

KarneraMythos

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He doesn't.
Seriously do not know why this guy's word is taken as gospel when he hasn't gotten 1 thing right yet.
Because Vergeben says they share some sources? Except that Vergeben also said that his sources don't hear the same things?
I don't get it either. Vergeben is the only reliable source so far, and even then he isn't a "source" as much as he is a messenger. It sucks that there are people who over-exaggerate his reputation and try to paint him in a bad light when he's probably even that bad a person IRL. I never got any bad vibes from him on gamefaqs, but scapegoating is a thing, unfortunately. Until he confirms anything that Hitagi says is 100% true, I'm not trusting the latter.

She could be fun as hell. It's the character.

She's from a gacha game, absolutely no Nintendo history, isn't even the main character of said game, would be DLC, only really appeals to Japan, has been requested by absolutely no one, undeniably a shill sort of character
It's such a conundrum...

1. Dragalia Lost is way too damn recent for CyGames to have any presence in Smash. I dunno about you, but I'd be pretty damn miffed if we get anything from the company this late in and yet Rex and Spring Man are "too late" to be DLC. Kind of a wacko Catch-22 right there if true, Nintendo...

2. There's also Id@lmaster as I've seen some people here and outside mention. Seeing Haruka in the game would be kinda funny since we don't have a music-heavy character yet, though that kind of rep would probably piss off some Chorus Kids fans.

3. Controversial opinion:
If they want to promote a gacha series, why Granblue of all things? I get that Dragalia Lost is a thing now, but there's the Fate series which already has a super popular spin-off on phones. Yes, I know the mobile spin-off is manhandled by Sony, but we have Fate content on the Switch. Yes, I know it started as an eroge, but ****ing everything in video games has sex behind-the-scenes. How else would Lucina have existed for example? It's so bizarre demonizing the thought of Arturia being in the roster just because she was in a hentai once. Yikes.
 

beans

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It's Mario though. Character traits are paper thin with just about everyone, even the main characters are boiled down to simple things like Mario is brave, Luigi is a scaredy cat, Peach is sweet, etc. Sure there's more to them than the generic enemies, but even they aren't fully fledged characters.

It's part of why Rosalina blew up more than any addition to the primary cast did before.

A bit of why Jr did too.

I'd argue those two have started something in which we're going to see more than just paper thin traits for Mario characters.

Because they had a little more oomph behind them with stories and backstories and traits that aren't just like Miyamoto looked in a Thesaurus and tried to pick something as a character trait.

And I say this as someone who loves Mario. Favorite gaming series, but complaining about a paper thin Mario addition is kind of ironic.
I know that is something to take in: that mario characters have paper thin traits.
But they still have them.
The argument isnt about how deep the character is.
Its about how theres is an estabilished character.
 

Tree Gelbman

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I mean all the Mario characters have enough for you to make a connection to them.

I mean even Bowser makes you like him because you get the sense he might be a bit lonely, you also have the fact he's actually a terrific father to Jr.

It's just....you know there's still not much to any of the Mario characters and that's already been cited as one of the interesting challenges to making the Illumination movie.
 
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