Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I really hope if an N64 mini happens that Mischief Makers is on it. Marina would be amazing in Smash if even just a spirit or Mii costume

Yo.

Plus she needs to give someone a taste of their own medicine.

 

[Luigi The President]

You know, I don't think Spawn Wave with Sora is...really accurate.

I don't think Spawn Wave of all people would risk getting a source outted like that. Literally only he is "hinting" at a specific Squenix rep I believe.

 

[RyuhoFox]

Honestly between DQ and Sora I think DQ is a much bigger series but Sora/Kingdom Hearts has the benefit of being a more globally recognizable and loved character/series. DQ does do well over here tmk but not to the degree that KH does as far as I am aware.

I could be completely wrong on this but that's my thoughts

 

[TheCJBrine]

You know, I don't think Spawn Wave with Sora is...really accurate.

I don't think Spawn Wave of all people would risk getting a source outted like that. Literally only he is "hinting" at a specific Squenix rep I believe.

If what Vergeben says about SE is true, I have a feeling Spawn Wave only heard about Sora and doesn't know about SE's stance on leaks.

Of course it could end up being Sora anyway.

 

[Noipoi]

I just saw Gamexplain's World of Light analysis.

I am so incredibly hype for this mode, you don't even know.

 

[Slavic]

Bionichute put together this document with all the Spirits he's been able to find so far w/ sources and information. This might exist somewhere else too but I feel like this is a solid resource

also if you know who either of these spirits are we would love to know or have seen anyone not on the list

 

[Deleted member]

Here's something I thought about if Nintendo suggested the five fighters; what if four of them were Nintendo characters, and the fifth belonged to Namco-Bandai because they helped make the game? What would you pick the fighters to be from that?

 

[Luigi The President]

If what Vergeben says about SE is true, I have a feeling Spawn Wave only heard about Sora and doesn't know about SE's stance on leaks.

Of course it could end up being Sora anyway.

If the dude is aware of Verge which I'm pretty positive he is then I don't know why he'd out his source either way

 

[Kingslime304]

Imagine in an alternate universe in Smash where there can be a mutated bandicoot is slapping the ever loving **** out of some shy Japanese redhead around Dracula's castle.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Sora has a 50/50 shot of getting in as the rumored Square DLC character.

My faith on Sora has yet to disappear, though I kinda conflicted that there is a good chance Sora and Geno might not be in the same roster. I feel it is one or the other.

 

[GrimPain]

Hmm some people bringing up Noctis, while I highly doubt it, I would be very interested in how they would make him work in Smash. Would be a very unique fighting style if faithfully done but likely too hard to balance.

Anyway, I'm still hoping Xenoblade gets another rep, wonder if the odds are better or worse with nintendo picking the list... hell give me Addam or something.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

36 songs...3 for 12 characters each...nearly everyone expected and prepared for this

Yeah I can do math too, and I was well aware and prepared for this to be the case, but that doesn't mean I'm not any less disappointed.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Alright I know I just encouraged you like we're in a shonen but how is Sora more likely than Geno at this point?
I'd like to ask just so you can get me back down to earth.

I'd say it comes down to notoriety with the general fanbase. A lot more people know who Sora is, or at least what Kingdom Hearts is, compared to Geno.

We're both likely going to lose anyways though, so there's no point in fighting against each other.

Here's my current feelings as to the war for the SE Rep.

 

[Idon]

Here's something I thought about if Nintendo suggested the five fighters; what if four of them were Nintendo characters, and the fifth belonged to Namco-Bandai because they helped make the game? What would you pick the fighters to be from that?

N I G H T M A R E

 

[Luigi The President]

I'd say it comes down to notoriety with the general fanbase. A lot more people know who Sora is, or at least what Kingdom Hearts is, compared to Geno.

We're both likely going to lose anyways though, so there's no point in fighting against each other.
View attachment 176370

Here's my current feelings as to the war for the SE Rep.

Instantly saved this pic
Will be reposting the night before the Game Awards as a final F

 

[Flyboy]

This are my DLC predictions, based on a looooot of research and data
1) Marina from Mischief Makers, as the Square-Enix rep

2) Ayumi Tachibana from Famicom Detective Club series.

3) Itoi Shigesato, creator of the Mother series, from Itoi Shigesato no Bass Tsuri No. 1

4) Ricky Winterborn from the Snowboarding series

5) Tin Star from Tinstar

And that's all, no Waluigi, Sora or Geno, those are the new characters chosen by Nintendo.
I can lists my sources (I have insiders) if you want.

There is no ****ing way Marina Liteyears is getting into Smash and I know this list is just a joke but how dare you break my heart by putting her and Ayumi on a list like this.

 

[Diem]

Yes, Nintendo probably had marketing in mind when choosing characters.
But that doesn't mean all of them have to promote an upcoming game. I only expect one or maybe two that fill this focus.
The others would probably specifically appeal to a casual or hardcore fanbase.

Exactly. One or two, maybe. All five? Unlikely. Possible, but let's look at the facts, shall we?

- Splatoon is already the biggest console game franchise in Japan and still very popular in the West. Needs no promotion whatsoever.

- Minor character who hasn't had any major appearances in a game since the GameBoy.

- Metroid Prime 4 still doesn't even have a trailer yet; last appearance was in Samus Returns on the 3DS over a year ago; purely chosen to please fans.

/ - Characters effectively dead since the 90's; only brought back due to the love of the old games--the opposite of the kind of promotion everyone's talking about.

- Comes from the same game as the FE newcomers from the previous Smash; only added due to fan demand.

- Dead since 2007, only appearing as a trophy in Brawl and Assist Trophy in Sm4sh; not coming back in Metroid Prime 4, so it's not promoting that.

- Last appearance was 10 years ago in a Mario spinoff, and last major appearance was in a Nintendo 64 game; purely chosen to please fans.

- The only arguable character to be a promotion for anything, yet it's an old character, so that's not promoting any new game, and Animal Crossing needs no promotion.

- Most recent and significant appearances aren't even on Nintendo consoles, just like Ryu; added due to the love of the old games, like Ryu and Castlevania.

- Debuted two years ago, last appearance was a year ago; no one's going to go out and buy Pokemon SM/USUM because of him.

- Oh yeah, this is gonna get the kids out into the stores to buy Mario.

Meanwhile, where are the characters from games/franchises that could've used actual promoting?

ARMS - Assist Trophy/Mii costume.

Xenoblade - Mii costume.

Bayonetta - Rodin as an AT, but Jeanne would've been an easy Echo Fighter.

Rabbids - Just one spirit.

Mario Tennis Aces - Nothing at all.

Starlink - The reverse (Star Fox being in that game).

Yoshi's Crafted World - We got an alt costume.

Fire Emblem: Three Houses - I think most people would agree there's been enough Fire Emblem promotion in Smash.

Luigi's Mansion 3 - Luigi got a Poltergust grab, that's it.

Pokemon Let's Go - Nothing at all.

Mega Man 11 - Just Zero as an AT; Proto Man and Bass added as part of Mega Man's Final Smash.

Chibi-Robo - A spirit and a Mii costume.

Custom Robo - Mii costume.

The World Ends With You - I didn't see anything.

~~~

Now, of course it's possible that trend means little. There was a trend with fighters being huge fan demands up until Ken, Incineroar, and Piranha Plant.

But when it comes to promotion in Smash, it's rarely so direct. The most direct it ever got was with Roy and Corrin. Besides that, every character has been added to the game because of the character itself, rather than whatever game or series it might promote.

Even with third parties this is the case. Cloud was added instead of Noctis, for example. Simon and Richter were added instead of Trevor (who's appearing in the ongoing Castlevania animated series on Netflix).

 

[zabimaru1000]

If the dude is aware of Verge which I'm pretty positive he is then I don't know why he'd out his source either way

I find it weird that spawn would already hint towards the square rep, while Verge was very vocal about not saying anything specific about the SE rep in order to not get his sources fired.

Either way I'm not believing the Spawn Wave leak as it's too good to be true.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Yes, Nintendo probably had marketing in mind when choosing characters.
But that doesn't mean all of them have to promote an upcoming game. I only expect one or maybe two that fill this focus.
The others would probably specifically appeal to a casual or hardcore fanbase.

This, Corrin was the only character that was in for promoting a game. The 3 vets were given primarily by fan demand (Nintendo knows this, hence why Ultimate is even a game) and Cloud, Ryu, Bayonetta (to a smaller extent) are highly notable character choices. None of these 3 had games coming out (Bayonetta 2 already released 2 years before) any time soon, so why people say Nintendo does DLC to advertise promotion character is kind of weird to Me. They literally only did it with Fire emblem.

This is why I'm still going to be confident on Banjo and Geno, because like Veterans being DLC (characters that were actually desired), because notable characters are DLC (Banjos case at least), they have a chance and I'm like 99% sure Sakurai knows that. We'll see though

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Bionichute put together this document with all the Spirits he's been able to find so far w/ sources and information. This might exist somewhere else too but I feel like this is a solid resource

also if you know who either of these spirits are we would love to know or have seen anyone not on the list

That’s some good spirit hunting

 

[Luigi The President]

Exactly. One or two, maybe. All five? Unlikely. Possible, but let's look at the facts, shall we?

- Splatoon is already the biggest console game franchise in Japan and still very popular in the West. Needs no promotion whatsoever.

- Minor character who hasn't had any major appearances in a game since the GameBoy.

- Metroid Prime 4 still doesn't even have a trailer yet; last appearance was in Samus Returns on the 3DS over a year ago; purely chosen to please fans.

/ - Characters effectively dead since the 90's; only brought back due to the love of the old games--the opposite of the kind of promotion everyone's talking about.

- Comes from the same game as the FE newcomers from the previous Smash; only added due to fan demand.

- Dead since 2007, only appearing as a trophy in Brawl and Assist Trophy in Sm4sh; not coming back in Metroid Prime 4, so it's not promoting that.

- Last appearance was 10 years ago in a Mario spinoff, and last major appearance was in a Nintendo 64 game; purely chosen to please fans.

- The only arguable character to be a promotion for anything, yet it's an old character, so that's not promoting any new game, and Animal Crossing needs no promotion.

- Most recent and significant appearances aren't even on Nintendo consoles, just like Ryu; added due to the love of the old games, like Ryu and Castlevania.

- Debuted two years ago, last appearance was a year ago; no one's going to go out and buy Pokemon SM/USUM because of him.

- Oh yeah, this is gonna get the kids out into the stores to buy Mario.

Meanwhile, where are the characters from games/franchises that could've used actual promoting?

ARMS - Assist Trophy/Mii costume.

Xenoblade - Mii costume.

Bayonetta - Rodin as an AT, but Jeanne would've been an easy Echo Fighter.

Rabbids - Just one spirit.

Mario Tennis Aces - Nothing at all.

Starlink - The reverse (Star Fox being in that game).

Yoshi's Crafted World - We got an alt costume.

Fire Emblem: Three Houses - I think most people would agree there's been enough Fire Emblem promotion in Smash.

Luigi's Mansion 3 - Luigi got a Poltergust grab, that's it.

Pokemon Let's Go - Nothing at all.

Mega Man 11 - Just Zero as an AT; Proto Man and Bass added as part of Mega Man's Final Smash.

Chibi-Robo - A spirit and a Mii costume.

Custom Robo - Mii costume.

The World Ends With You - I didn't see anything.

~~~

Now, of course it's possible that trend means little. There was a trend with fighters being huge fan demands up until Ken, Incineroar, and Piranha Plant.

But when it comes to promotion in Smash, it's rarely so direct. The most direct it ever got was with Roy and Corrin. Besides that, every character has been added to the game because of the character itself, rather than whatever game or series it might promote.

Even with third parties this is the case. Cloud was added instead of Noctis, for example. Simon and Richter were added instead of Trevor (who's appearing in the ongoing Castlevania animated series on Netflix).

Daisy appears in every sports game that's just misinfo, that's clearly more than enough to get her in

Everything else you are totally handed though

 

[Flyboy]

Here's something I thought about if Nintendo suggested the five fighters; what if four of them were Nintendo characters, and the fifth belonged to Namco-Bandai because they helped make the game? What would you pick the fighters to be from that?

It's gotta be a tossup between Heihachi and Lloyd. Either would be cool for me.

 

[Roberk]

Here's something I thought about if Nintendo suggested the five fighters; what if four of them were Nintendo characters, and the fifth belonged to Namco-Bandai because they helped make the game? What would you pick the fighters to be from that?

For the Bandai Namco character: KOS-MOS, she has ties to Nintendo by being in XC2 and Bandai Namco likes to throw her into a lot of crossovers.

 

[Kingslime304]

Let's make up victory quotes (Like in Fighting games) with Smash/Dream characters and Assist trophys.

Here's mine!

Spoiler

Ken:
Vs. Corrin: "Now this is quite ironic."

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yeah I can do math too, and I was well aware and prepared for this to be the case, but that doesn't mean I'm not any less disappointed.

You’ll get over it eventually (you ain’t got anything to complain about 3rd party music wise unless you’re a franchise named “Final Fantasy”)

 

[TheCJBrine]

We're getting Lancer Deltarune with Jevil as a stage boss.

Screencap this.

 

[Diem]

Daisy appears in every sports game that's just misinfo, that's clearly more than enough to get her in

Everything else you are totally handed though

Of course, but that's not promoting any game or series. She was added because she's been requested since Melee. Putting her in the game isn't going to drive interest or sales in the Mario spinoffs any more than Piranha Plant is.

 

[Potato_]

"They" being Sakurai and his team. Nintendo is the one who made the decisions this time.

Nintendo can choose characters that are promotional and recognizable, and that's what you want to aim for. However, there's going to be definite sway towards promotional characters.

Yeah I get your point, but Nintendo no doubt had a hand in the Cloud decision. We can't say how much for sure obviously, but there's no way Sakurai would've been able to manage Cloud without some sort of support from Nintendo as well.

From what it sounds like Nintendo gave Sakurai their own curated choices (so likely slightly more than 5) and Sakurai chose the ones he thought were possible. Looking at it that way, Sakurai still has a hand in the process, just not as much as he did previously due to the curated selection.

Which characters would you count as promotional AND recognizable? A DQ rep would be largely unknown to anyone outside of Japan (although I guess you can argue the art style is distinctly Dragon Quest, and they have 11 coming.). Really they're the only one I can see, and even then sales would no doubt be heavily reliant on that large Japanese fanbase and the newer fans garnered from 11's release in the west.

Going towards promotional characters, they can definitely sell, but Nintendo really have to do a better job than Edelgard, who they've barely pushed at all. They still have time of course, but as of right now all we have for Three Houses is that E3 gameplay trailer.

Don't get me wrong btw, I love Fire Emblem and have no qualms about another character from the series, just that they're gonna have to do more to convince me and probably a lot more people on her.

Granted I'd probably still buy her anyways because I'm a sucker for Smash stuff

 

[Deleted member]

Bionichute put together this document with all the Spirits he's been able to find so far w/ sources and information. This might exist somewhere else too but I feel like this is a solid resource

also if you know who either of these spirits are we would love to know or have seen anyone not on the list

We already have 464 known Spirits?! Who thinks we will reach over 2500 because it's just artwork and sprites?

 

[zabimaru1000]

Sora has a 50/50 shot of getting in as the rumored Square DLC character.

My faith on Sora has yet to disappear, though I kinda conflicted that there is a good chance Sora and Geno might not be in the same roster. I feel it is one or the other.

I wish I had your optimism. My faith on Sora is practically gone, the only thing that's keeping it alive is that I'm still waiting on what would happen between now and KH3

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Sora would not benefit Nintendo, it'd really only benefit Squenix.
I'd replace Sora with a DQ rep here. Sora's still in the running but DQ seems more likely.

Ryu was added right before Street Fighter V released, a game that wasn't on their system. Beyond that, Nintendo and Square (and likely Disney) would all make money on Sora. They aren't directly supporting a rival company by adding a third party character (it's not like they're adding Kratos) and in case you forgot, Kingdom Hearts 3 is also releasing on Xbox One - you know, which is made by Microsoft, which Nintendo has gone pretty buddy-buddy with lately. Nintendo would choose a 3rd Party character who would be likely to sell more - ergo, an obscure rep is likely out.

Might I also remind you Cloud got in and his game is just now coming to Nintendo after 20 years?

Square might add Sora as promotion for KH3, but for the Nintendo side they're adding him as a popular game character to make more money off of the already made game.

 

[Deleted member]

You know, I don't think Spawn Wave with Sora is...really accurate.

I don't think Spawn Wave of all people would risk getting a source outted like that. Literally only he is "hinting" at a specific Squenix rep I believe.

Pretty much my conclusions after looking at a few past videos regarding Smash. Mind you, he's still the most reliable leaker out there, more so than Liam Robertson and Emily Rogers, but there definitely is a difference between "hinting", "predicting" and "saying".

Speaking of Spawn -

Honestly between DQ and Sora I think DQ is a much bigger series but Sora/Kingdom Hearts has the benefit of being a more globally recognizable and loved character/series. DQ does do well over here tmk but not to the degree that KH does as far as I am aware.

I could be completely wrong on this but that's my thoughts

Here's the most recent update regarding Dragon Quest. 3.3-7M of those copies are probably from Japan, if we wanna be realistic.

Dragon Quest XI topped 4 million copies. A large amount of those were sold in Japan though with it being well over 3 million sold physically alone in Japan. The Dragon Quest series still needs work to catch on elsewhere especially out west. https://t.co/CnSLVAMUks

— Spawn Wave (@SpawnWaveMedia) November 7, 2018

 

[GoeGoe]

As someone who does enjoy playing most, if not all, of the Fire Emblem characters, I can understand where one would be coming from when they say they don’t like the fact that many of them play similarly.

However, one thing I will say is that there’s a certain “touch” to each of them that, while they’re similar, they do play differently.

For example, if I play Marth, I have to space accordingly compared to Lucina, which means that I can’t play the exact same way. With Roy, despite his moveset being derivative of Marth, he’s completely different in play style, meaning, again, if I am trying to win as him, I cannot play him as I might play Marth.

The thing with those characters and the way they’re added to Smash is different from, say, a unique addition. Lucina was added as a last minute clone. Roy was added that way. Chrom is now the latest one. Chrom and Lucina, despite being Echo Fighters, are also characters that were popular picks from the fanbase, so to me you can’t entirely go wrong with picking characters that people want, especially when the base moveset (Marth) is so well done that it’s simply fun to play.

Echo fighters, in my humble opinion, aren’t really on the same plane in terms of requirements, as they are effectively “bonus drops” that would have never made it as unique fighters on their first appearance as playable in Smash. It’s less effort for characters that please a lot of people, there’s very little downside with that.

They were just recently described as echos. A blanket of that over "bonus drops" dose.
I sure play most, and I sure enjoy each and every but I still think their advertising inclusion unbalanced the roster "variety".
No denying each had a certain touch, but I think that was a forced must, for the least to seperate each from the other.
I don't mind echos btw, it's an easy way to have a new fighter. Maybe now they're not described as it, but I love Falco and Lucas for example.. I just think they went overboard with FE chars., abd it was for the wrong reason.

 

[Kingslime304]

To be honest, I find Sora's attacks to not really pack a punch, the only ones that do are that attack where he summons spinning diamonds, ones that look like he's flailing around, and his aerial attacks.

 

[Luigi The President]

Ryu was added right before Street Fighter V released, a game that wasn't on their system. Beyond that, Nintendo and Square (and likely Disney) would all make money on Sora. They aren't directly supporting a rival company by adding a third party character (it's not like they're adding Kratos) and in case you forgot, Kingdom Hearts 3 is also releasing on Xbox One - you know, which is made by Microsoft, which Nintendo has gone pretty buddy-buddy with lately. Nintendo would choose a 3rd Party character who would be likely to sell more - ergo, an obscure rep is likely out.

Might I also remind you Cloud got in and his game is just now coming to Nintendo after 20 years?

And Cloud was not promoting any direct competitors software at the time he was released. His point isn't really relevant. RYU'S is.

KH3 on the Xbone is just even more against it. That's more money for more of Nintendo's competitors. No matter how friendly they are, they are still businesses and competitors.

I feel it's worth nothing SFV didn't release until 8 months after Ryu's appearance as DLC. That's a long time.

ANY third party character from Squenix will sell. They have their virtues.
The top 3 of Sora/Geno/DQ Rep would all sell very well individually. This is known.

 

[Idon]

Let's make up victory quotes (Like in Fighting games) with Smash/Dream characters and Assist trophys.

Here's mine!

Spoiler

Ken:
Vs. Corrin: "Now this is quite ironic."

Chrom:
reaches out with his hand outstretched.
"There are better places to take a nap than on the ground, you know!"

 

[NineS]

I'd say it comes down to notoriety with the general fanbase. A lot more people know who Sora is, or at least what Kingdom Hearts is, compared to Geno.

We're both likely going to lose anyways though, so there's no point in fighting against each other.
View attachment 176370

Here's my current feelings as to the war for the SE Rep.

I'm afraid, most likely right now... Yoko Taro already predicted how this would go down ages ago.

I'm afraid he's always known.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Of course, but that's not promoting any game or series. She was added because she's been requested since Melee. Putting her in the game isn't going to drive interest or sales in the Mario spinoffs any more than Piranha Plant is.

Daisy appears in every sports game that's just misinfo, that's clearly more than enough to get her in

Everything else you are totally handed though

Also, Super Mario Run is big enough to count as major, so that's a point in her favor.

I'm afraid, most likely right now... Yoko Taro already predicted how this would go down ages ago.

I'm afraid he's always known.

If it can eventually lead to Jessica and Alena being in Smash in the future, so be it.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

They were just recently described as echos. A blanket of that over "bonus drops" dose.
I sure play most, and I sure enjoy each and every but I still think their advertising inclusion unbalanced the roster "variety".
No denying each had a certain touch, but I think that was a forced must, for the least to seperate each from the other.
I don't mind echos btw, it's an easy way to have a new fighter. Maybe now they're not described as it, but I love Falco and Lucas for example.. I just think they went overboard with FE chars., abd it was for the wrong reason.

Imo they're missing some big opportunities by (seemingly) closing the Echo door. I mean sure we got highly-wanted characters on top of two more third-parties, but why stop there? Lots of untapped potential that they could take advantage of.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel it's worth nothing SFV didn't release until 8 months after Ryu's appearance as DLC. That's a long time.

Not to mention fighting games are always going to be more of a niche compared to most other franchises, so Nintendo stood less to lose, and this was at a time before Capcom really started to win the favor of the consumer back.