Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

15k messages on this forum and you still like to be this great guy?

Thank god!

...chief what???

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, here's ZeRo's full tier list. Ranked in order of best to worst from left to right, up to down. I think this is the final version of his list for now until the game's out.

Top-tier Shulk?

I'm really feeling this

 

[Polar Bair]

I know people probably don't like tier talk here, but you're doing yourself a favor by picking a strong character early on. What's important is to look at what makes characters good, or what a character lacks that keeps them from being good. If a character can't reliably recover, seal stocks, or win scrambles, they're probably not going to be good (barring extreme circumstances, like Cloud's below average recovery not really holding him back). Luckily, following in Smash 4's footsteps, this game is looking more balanced than ever.

 

[Pazzo.]

15k messages on this forum and you still like to be this great guy?

Thank god!

You may need to rephrase this...

 

[KarneraMythos]

Honestly, after playing the game...
I myself still can't answer that question.

Rex is a really loud optimist, Pyra is a gentle soul, and Mythra's super sassy, and I can't really say much more.

Allow me to add more to their characters.

Rex is an aspiring teenager who picks up his own weight and makes a living for himself, unlike most people his age (even those in their 20's, like me). He also supports his family back home, is ridiculously nice to a fault, and always tries to see the best in others. He's put in situations where violence is the only option however, so he's not entirely an All-Loving Hero as one might perceive him to be. He also has the ability to reason with how others go about their goals and tries his best to find a middle-ground that satisfies both parties, and has gone on record to changing

Spoiler

one of the main antagonist's perceptions of humanity through sheer admiration of his race and the amazement of the world that's built off of Blades and Titans alike.

When he's not chipper and playfully smug, he's convincingly-sad and broken, and it's pretty awful seeing him in those moments. The voice-acting is definitely an issue here and there, but it's not enough to deter my experience. In fact, it's rather charming in a So Bad, It's Good way.

As for Pyra, let me divert from her a bit for just a moment. A not-so-bright friend of mine wants Pyra to be playable by herself and reasons that she can hold her own without Rex. Popular opinion says otherwise, but I can agree with his points regarding her. Putting that aside, he doesn't see eye-to-eye with KOS-MOS, who he believes is only popular because "she's hot." I can't even call him a hypocrite at this point because me wanting KOS-MOS has nothing to do with her attractiveness at all, but you can sure as hell attribute his desire to want Pyra in Smash because he gawks about her constantly for the very reasons he thinks people want KOS-MOS. Ahh, what an asshat...

Anyway, so Pyra... She's a god damn cinnamon roll. The only other characters capable of competing for that title are Kasandra, Crossette, and Haze. Pyra's got a motherly warmth to her, has a soothing voice that's easy to listen to, and has such a relaxing disposition that she's quite literally "Good Vibes: The Character." She's quite reluctant in the main campaign of the game due to fearing her own strength, but this isn't some delusional chuuni hyperbole. She's incredibly dangerous within the context of the whole game, having the same potential as the main antagonist

Spoiler

(Malos)

to wipe the world asunder had her original partner been the pseudo-antagonist

Spoiler

(Amalthus)

instead. The expansion goes on to capitalize on her past experiences, which makes her role in the main campaign all the more tragic. Pyra is very sweet and loving, but she's

Spoiler

suicidal in the beginning of the game by the time Rex awakens her. He learns later that she came into being as a Tulpa to Mythra, as a coping mechanism for all the horrors she was subjected to 500 years before the events of the main campaign. As such, her journey with Rex starts off with wanting to meet the man who created their world and seek oblivion for the atrocities they were a part of. What's worse is that her other personality, Mythra, had minor sociopathic tendencies. The aftermath of the war left them guilt-ridden, and it takes Rex to help them break out of their shell, which would eventually earn them their true appearance.

Really, I think she's a fantastic character. I'd be a liar if I didn't say she was gorgeous, but that's just a bonus honestly. There's a reason she's my favorite party blade and Kasandra's my favorite optional blade. Personality comes first to me.

 

[Deleted member]

What is it with Pikachu being high tier in ever game?
It's almost like it was forced by the Pokemon Company...

Seriously though... Has there ever been a Smash game where Pikachu has not been high tier?

Pikachu was thought to be mid tier in Melee for a while IIRC.

 

[Deleted member]

Please take the ZeRo tier list with a grain of salt.

He may be good at Smash, but the guy said for years that Shulk had potential before backing off after he realized he was wrong.

He said that when customs seemed to become a thing in competitive play tjough(and I mean, Decisive Monado Arts and Power Vision are just stupid)

 

[Pazzo.]

I know people probably don't like tier talk here, but you're doing yourself a favor by picking a strong character early on. What's important is to look at what makes characters good, or what a character lacks that keeps them from being good. If a character can't reliably recover, seal stocks, or win scrambles, they're probably not going to be good (barring extreme circumstances, like Cloud's below average recovery not really holding him back). Luckily, following in Smash 4's footsteps, this game is looking more balanced than ever.

Cloud's recovery is such a bait and switch, who cares if you have an OK recovery when the other half of the time it's one of the best it the game?

 

[LetterO]

Alright, here's ZeRo's full tier list. Ranked in order of best to worst from left to right, up to down. I think this is the final version of his list for now until the game's out.

Overall, here's my thoughts of my main placements. I like that Olimar, K. Rool, and Diddy are at the top. I'm fine with Incineroar and Wario are decent tier. Really sad that Dedede and Bowser Jr. got hard nerfs and seem to be the 2 worst so far.

 

[Luigi The President]

I do think that Geno not being in base could hypothetically maybe be a little explained by the fact that Squenix is just...so damn stingy.

No matter WHO it was their second rep would be DLC.

What y'all think?

 

[ChronoBound]

Top-tier Shulk?

I'm really feeling this

Alright, here's ZeRo's full tier list. Ranked in order of best to worst from left to right, up to down. I think this is the final version of his list for now until the game's out.

Its a shame Ridley is bottom tier. I actually had a cynical expectation dating back to pre-Brawl that this would happen. I wonder what could even be done to buff him. Samus (regular and Dark) needs major buffs too. Samus has been bad since Brawl.

 

[RandomAce]

The Katalina thing just proves my theory of how the Smash fanbase will always move around goalposts and defend whatever is in the game and try to justify it but anything not in it isn't "worthy"
"3rd parties need a history with Nintendo to be in. Oh Snake? The guy who most of his games are Sony exclusives? Well, you see, his game started on the NES and he has one GameCube game."
"3rd parties are only gaming icons, Snake was cut because the Pac-Man, Mega Man and Sonic trio is all that it needs. Oh Ryu? Well, you see, he's a fighting game icon so he can be in."
"3rd parties need a major game on a Nintendo console to be in. Oh Cloud? Well, you see, hus franchise has a deep history with Nintendo."
"3rd parties need to have a deep history with Nintendo to be in, even if that's outside of Nintendo consoles. Oh Bayonetta? You see, she's basically owned by Nintendo actually so she's not reall 3rd party."

Mark my words. Screenshot this. The same people saying Katalina makes no sense will be defending her inclusion if she gets announced.

Yes she makes sense, as the most corporate addition in Smash, even above Corrin, but aside from that, not really.

Katalina is a popular character from a popular mobile game in Japan... that’s it. I like Katalina, but there isn’t a lot of merit value to her as a new character.

The main reasons for her potential inclusion is that Cygames would want to spread the Grandblue name to people outside of Japan. Seeing how a part of them is owned by Nintendo and worked with them on one project, they may want to take the opportunity to add their star character in Smash, which would boost the awareness of Grandblue and give Cygames a much easier access to the global market.

The gist, it’s entirely cooperate. The only other possible reason is that she was popular that Sakurai included her, but that sets an already low bar even lower as a third party addition, and I really doubt that’d be Sakurai’s reason. There are so many other characters like Geno, Lloyd, Sora, that have more sentimental merit to them since they simply are more connected to Nintendo and are popular with Smash fans that makes them more easier for people to accept and pay for their inclusion than someone like Katalina.

I’d like Katalina a bit, but when looking at the possible direction Sakurai seems to be going for this game, this doesn’t seem like a move that Sakurai is willing to pull, unless Katalina can bring something new to the cast, which so far, I don’t think there’s a lot. Verge even said it himself, we possibly know that a conversation happened, but plans could’ve fell flat in the end.

 

[Iddis]

>Ridley low tier
I can never escape Low Tier Main Hell I guess

I know that feel, lol

 

[Polar Bair]

What is it with Pikachu being high tier in ever game?
It's almost like it was forced by the Pokemon Company...

Seriously though... Has there ever been a Smash game where Pikachu has not been high tier?

Pikachu's design just lends to things that make characters good. He's flexible between offense and defense, has a good recovery (range and mixups), and lots of ways to finish stocks without much risk. It's kind of hard to nerf a small, fast character meaningfully.

 

[Idon]

>Ridley low tier
I can never escape Low Tier Main Hell I guess

I'm pretty it'll just become second nature to Shulk mains very quickly

Yeah it's minor, but it just bothers that little bit of perfectionism in my mind.

Mood:

Maybe Nintendo will make him better in the future! I hope...

at least Robin looks better yknow

My theory on what happened:

"Guys, people were complaining about Bowser Jr. being overpowered, we gotta nerf him!"
3 days later.
"Wait were they talking about Mario Tennis Aces or Smash?"

 

[Pazzo.]

All tier lists at this point are being made with Smash 4 players in mind.

We don't have anyone taking advantage of punishes from Perfect Shield, using tilts out of dash, or exploring the new ledge mechanics.

It's anyone's game. Except Bowser Jr's.

 

[Deleted member]

I know people probably don't like tier talk here, but you're doing yourself a favor by picking a strong character early on. What's important is to look at what makes characters good, or what a character lacks that keeps them from being good. If a character can't reliably recover, seal stocks, or win scrambles, they're probably not going to be good (barring extreme circumstances, like Cloud's below average recovery not really holding him back). Luckily, following in Smash 4's footsteps, this game is looking more balanced than ever.

I've been maining Ness the entire time, and when I thought he finally got his big break in 4 he ended up being mid tier at best.
I'm in it for the long haul at this point, character loyalty for life.

 

[N3ON]

15k messages on this forum and you still like to be this great guy?

Thank god!

Same

 

[Idon]

Allow me to add more to their characters.

Rex is an aspiring teenager who picks up his own weight and makes a living for himself, unlike most people his age (even those in their 20's, like me). He also supports his family back home, is ridiculously nice to a fault, and always tries to see the best in others. He's put in situations where violence is the only option however, so he's not entirely an All-Loving Hero as one might perceive him to be. He also has the ability to reason with how others go about their goals and tries his best to find a middle-ground that satisfies both parties, and has gone on record to changing

Spoiler

one of the main antagonist's perceptions of humanity through sheer admiration of his race and the amazement of the world that's built off of Blades and Titans alike.

When he's not chipper and playfully smug, he's convincingly-sad and broken, and it's pretty awful seeing him in those moments. The voice-acting is definitely an issue here and there, but it's not enough to deter my experience. In fact, it's rather charming in a So Bad, It's Good way.

As for Pyra, let me divert from her a bit for just a moment. A not-so-bright friend of mine wants Pyra to be playable by herself and reasons that she can hold her own without Rex. Popular opinion says otherwise, but I can agree with his points regarding her. Putting that aside, he doesn't see eye-to-eye with KOS-MOS, who he believes is only popular because "she's hot." I can't even call him a hypocrite at this point because me wanting KOS-MOS has nothing to do with her attractiveness at all, but you can sure as hell attribute his desire to want Pyra in Smash because he gawks about her constantly for the very reasons he thinks people want KOS-MOS. Ahh, what an ******...

Anyway, so Pyra... She's a god damn cinnamon roll. The only other characters capable of competing for that title are Kasandra, Crossette, and Haze. Pyra's got a motherly warmth to her, has a soothing voice that's easy to listen to, and has such a relaxing disposition that she's quite literally "Good Vibes: The Character." She's quite reluctant in the main campaign of the game due to fearing her own strength, but this isn't some delusional chuubi hyperbole. She's incredibly dangerous within the context of the whole game, having the same potential as the main antagonist

Spoiler

(Malos)

to wipe the world asunder had her original partner been the pseudo-antagonist

Spoiler

(Amalthus)

instead. The expansion goes on to capitalize on her past experiences, which makes her role in the main campaign all the more tragic. Pyra is very sweet and loving, but she's

Spoiler

suicidal in the beginning of the game by the time Rex awakens her. He learns later that she came into being as a Tulpa to Mythra, as a coping mechanism for all the horrors she was subjected to 500 years before the events of the main campaign. As such, her journey with Rex starts off with wanting to meet the man who created their world and seek oblivion for the atrocities they were a part of. What's worse is that her other personality, Mythra, had minor sociopathic tendencies. The aftermath of the war left them guilt-ridden, and it takes Rex to help them break out of their shell, which would eventually earn them their true appearance.

Really, I think she's a fantastic character. I'd be a liar if I didn't say she was gorgeous, but that's just a bonus honestly. There's a reason she's my favorite party blade and Kasandra's my favorite optional blade. Personality comes first to me.

Yeah, what he said.
Character analysis isn't my strong suit.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

15k messages on this forum and you still like to be this great guy?

Thank god!

Aren’t you “that guy” who made multiple fake Agumon leaks just to get people to talk about him?

 

[Deleted member]

Tbh, we really need the game out first unless we want a repeat of "Bowser is top tier guys"

 

[Kingslime304]

I think Ken would be more played than Ryu in Online play due to the fact the he's more aggressive, meaning players don't have to worry as more about his Special Inputs and his tilts having more pressure in general. I also think Roy is quite a sleepy character simply because of his obscurity in Smash 4 (Similar to Falke in SFV) despite his playstyle (Which I love to bits) being a big plus in a game like Ultimate where rushdown is more prominent, and that his sweetspot being increased (OH ****ING **** THANK YOU!!!!). It's also kind of saddening that Ridley is gonna being in the lower tiers since he's technicaly a more bigger, slower Roy from what I've seen (Not that the playstyle a bad thing) and that he's one of the most requested characters (Period), which is a lot more (I think) than others recent picks.

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Rex and Pyra have some of the ugliest character designs I've seen for protagonists of any major game in recent years.

I imagine their appeal within the game is in their personalities or something. What do they bring to the table?

Gameplay-wise, I think they’d be much different from Shulk. The relationship between Blade and Driver is a big part of both the story and gameplay of Xenoblade 2. Blades are able to apply buffs during battle and Drivers become stronger the closer they are to their blade. I think you can make something unique and fun with this in Smash. There’s also things like Blade Combos and Blade Specials that could be incorporated in their move-set.

Personality wise, I think they’re fine. A lot of people here don’t seem super fond of them, but I personally quite enjoyed the cast of Xenoblade 2, more than the original’s even.

Rex is loud and reckless at first and he gets his ass beat all the time, yes, but he eventually comes to understand Pyra/Mythra’s feelings and grows to have what it takes to be the true driver of the Aegis. I can appreciate growth in a character. Can’t say much more without going into spoiler territory.

Pyra and Mythra are the sweetheart and the serious, sassy type respectively. There’s a reason for that, which Torna ~ The Golden Country dwells into. I think the expansion does good in expanding on their personality.

 

[Graizen]

Aren’t you “that guy” who made multiple fake Agumon leaks just to get people to talk about him?

I never made a single smash fake leak mister.
And thank you for helping this great friend of yours.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh, no, you were. And I don't say this with spite but with sadness my friend.

Difference is he never stated "I hope this makes you feel like you're playing as Geno" like he did with Rex

The problem is that A, translators can always oversell what Sakurai says, and B, we've seen so many Mii Costumes get promoted, I legit don't see them as an indicator of anything, especially when you add in the fact that there's a Nia Mii costume and songs from Xenoblade 2 in the base game.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

See that's the thing with Geno

I do not understand why he'd be a Spirit in base if planned for DLC

Because Spirits mean nothing?

Legitimiately they are the equal of trophies as said much by Sakurai. They're just Trophies with similar benefits to stickers from Brawl.

Besides we might be in this unprecedented time where Sakurai might not even care that there are multiples of fighters on the battlefield through FSes and the like (see: Chrom).

A spirit means nothing in terms of harming a character's chances for DLC. You're just being pessimistic with this one.

 

[Pazzo.]

Bowser Jr. probably got heavy buffs in the development cycle and got dialed back sometime before the final demo build was being released.

Who knows how many changes have been made between the final demo and the final product. Probably not many but I wouldn't be surprised if some things change.

 

[Deleted member]

Also pre-release character tier lists are rarely ever correct in hindsight, best to wait until we actually got the game and can see how characters performs outside of items-on matches.
Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings might be beyond saving though

 

[PsySmasher]

All tier lists at this point are being made with Smash 4 players in mind.

We don't have anyone taking advantage of punishes from Perfect Shield, using tilts out of dash, or exploring the new ledge mechanics.

It's anyone's game. Except Bowser Jr's.

Spoiler: Large Image

You had to go there didn't you?

 

[Potato_]

Tbh, we really need the game out first unless we want a repeat of "Bowser is top tier guys"

This is a good point. Probably a lot of things people can find once they get full access to the game.

I'm taking the Zero thing as more of a "First impressions" than anything else.

 

[Luigi The President]

The problem is that A, translators can always oversell what Sakurai says, and B, we've seen so many Mii Costumes get promoted, I legit don't see them as an indicator of anything, especially when you add in the fact that there's a Nia Mii costume and songs from Xenoblade 2 in the base game.

Except, those were all Smash 4 Mii costumes
I get why you think he has a chance though

Because Spirits mean nothing?

Legitimiately they are the equal of trophies as said much by Sakurai. They're just Trophies with similar benefits to stickers from Brawl.

Besides we might be in this unprecedented time where Sakurai might not even care that there are multiples of fighters on the battlefield through FSes and the like (see: Chrom).

A spirit means nothing in terms of harming a character's chances for DLC. You're just being pessimistic with this one.

Can you blame me for being pessimistic Fisher

 

[Pazzo.]

When can we get nerfs that make Cloud's inferior Advent Children outfit unplayable?

 

[Mc.Rad]

Because Spirits mean nothing?

Legitimiately they are the equal of trophies as said much by Sakurai. They're just Trophies with similar benefits to stickers from Brawl.

Besides we might be in this unprecedented time where Sakurai might not even care that there are multiples of fighters on the battlefield through FSes and the like (see: Chrom).

A spirit means nothing in terms of harming a character's chances for DLC. You're just being pessimistic with this one.

Jokes on you, Sakurai literally didn't care about multiples of fighters when Brawl came out since you can see the Blue Falcon drive by on Port Town regardless if Falcon is on the stage or not...

 

[Moydow]

Marth's going to be high tier from the start this time? So I might actually win matches from the start, instead of needing several patches before I start to not suck. :p

though shouldn't we really wait until the game is actually out before trying to guess at something like this?

 

[Kingslime304]

They keep thinking that a heavy-floaty character with no mobility and a focus on 2 projectiles can be GOOD.

C'mon, at least let her snipe people by aiming the ball a bit...

Edit: OOPS, I THOUGHT YOU MEANT K ROOL NOT SAMUS!!!

 

[Idon]

Jokes on you, Sakurai literally didn't care about multiples of fighters when Brawl came out since you can see the Blue Falcon drive by on Port Town regardless if Falcon is on the stage or not...

Obviously that Blue falcon was driven by Ryu Suzaku.

 

[RandomAce]

Y'know, after all the hubbub of that last direct, I feel like one key detail got glossed over and I need to be publicly happy about it for a second.

FATAL FRAME GOT AN ASSIST TROPHY.

All my Fatal Frame fans get in on this hug. Both of you. Get over here.

I was surprised no one talked about this...

Like, some of you guys wanted something Fatal Frame, and here we are. I got excited.

Also she said “Nani?”.

 

[TheCJBrine]

I'm predicting either Sans Undertale or Lancer Deltarune to be the final DLC character.

Their hype would rival Steve Minecraft's.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Jokes on you, Sakurai literally didn't care about multiples of fighters when Brawl came out since you can see the Blue Falcon drive by on Port Town regardless if Falcon is on the stage or not...

That was Falcon's cousin, Captain Felipe.

You haven't met him. Nice guy.

Don't wanna get him pissed off though, his Felipe Punch packs a wallop.

 

[Robertman2]

Rex is a generic shonen protag. There's not a damn thing unique about him personality wise. He's an example of what's basically the Japanese equivalent of the generic gruff white male solider dude.