Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[MysticKnives]

I'll only tackle Jigglypuff here since I haven't seen too much of the others in action.

On first glance, she actually looks better than she did in 4 and Brawl. While the person playing her wasn't very good, she seemed to hold her own against Richter and was actually able to survive to rage %.

I did like that one moment where Puff edgeguarded Richter

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Honestly I could see this scenario playing out truthfully:

Geno IS the Square rep and leads the charge.

Sora gets in later as a Disney rep. People have confused him as a Square rep, but the trademark he would add would be Disney and thus he'd be treated as such I'm sure.

Both were negotiated at the same time however since Square would be included in Sora's equation either way.

 

[Rummy]

Honestly I could see this scenario playing out truthfully:

Geno IS the Square rep and leads the charge.

Sora gets in later as a Disney rep. People have confused him as a Square rep, but the trademark he would add would be Disney and thus he'd be treated as such I'm sure.

Both were negotiated at the same time however since Square would be included in Sora's equation either way.

My main Issue and why i'm not too keen on Sora is.

"What is Sora without Disney?" A lot of his story and references are linked to Disney.

 

[PsySmasher]

Well here's my updated list of who I'm playing seriously (larger squares) and who are my pocket picks (smaller squares)
These are all in order.

Spoiler: A Lot of Characters

Yes. despite all the nerf Jr. has gotten, he's still my true main, tied with Corrin.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

My main Issue and why i'm not too keen on Sora is.

"What is Sora without Disney?"

Yeah, I'm particular iffy on Sora for a number of reasons most of them boiling down to feeling his representation wouldn't be truthful and off if he didn't have Donald and Goofy tagging along for at least his FS. I'm also worried they'll pull a Cloud and not even bother hiring his other voice actors.

And to me? A Sora that doesn't sound like Haley Joel is not Sora. I can let Cloud slide because when I was introduced to him? He initially did not have a voice, y'know?

But Sora's always been Haley Joel to me.

 

[Nethermoosen]

My main Issue and why i'm not too keen on Sora is.

"What is Sora without Disney?"

Kingdom hearts 1 and 2 begin and end in unique worlds. Donald and Goofy and Micky and all other Disney characters were not necessary for the overall story. The main plot exists with or without them. Sure, Mickey is almost central to the plot, but the plot doesn’t require Disney worlds to work.

They could replace all Disney characters with original characters and the main plot would remain the same.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

With all this talk about SE, I wonder. On the topic of Sora, would Disney be the harder company to work with, or would it actually be SE?

Square Enix easily.

Remember, this is the company that didn't let Final Fantasy expand its representation within Smash Bros. We still have one stage and two versions of the same music track. This is also the company that is (likely) keeping Geno from being in Smash as a playable character because he isn't relevant and popular enough.

There's little to no way Disney can be harder to work with, especially with how much they like free money.

 

[DraginHikari]

Thaaaaaat's not how that works. Konami may suck in the eyes of gamers but profit for the Silent Hill, Castlevania, and Metal Gear series have been up for the past, er, decade. Pachinko does a lot to increase your brand whether we like it or not.

If Konami wanted to pull a Square than they most definitely could. Square is just, I don't want to say overprotective, they're just hard to work with I think. I don't even necessarily think it's their fault. A lot of their copyrights don't even fall exclusively under them. FFVII music, for example, is wholly owned by the original composer save for a few tracks from the original FFVII. It's weird. They have the strangest copyright deals in the industry and it puts them in a whole.

For clarity, Square has the sole right to the USE of Final Fantasy soundtracks. They can not freely distribute it though. That comes down to the composer. Square Enix is good to use FF music in their own projects but licensing it out to other companies is REALLY tricky and very specific. Square probably did the best they could without contacting the original composer whom, last I heard, was hospitalized for health reasons.

The only thing I think Square could be called stingy for is not offering up an Assist Trophy character when other companies gave multiple. Even then, all the summons from FFVII appear in Midgar so. I dunno. Square can be a hard company to work with but i don't think their Smash content is entirely their fault.

Konami is kind of a weird in regards to their franchises as they don't seem all that protective of them, as they had a reputation during their last Generation of farming quite a few of their franchises to lower end studios and the like. Neither do they seem that concerned with the Legacy of the franchises themselves giving their tendency to convert them to whatever suits their needs at any given time. Originally I thought Konami behavior would impact those like Snake and Simon because Konami had a reputation of being difficult to work with. It appears the opposite was true, perhaps their desire for marketing overwhelmed their more... crazier tendencies.

As far as in SquareEnix itself even using the music internally can be challenge I recall the developers of FFXIV talking about some of the work it takes in order to get approval to use soundtracks from the past games or even remixing the thing. However FFXIV at least had the original composer of the FF soundtrack involved in it's original development so it's probably easier for them then it would be otherwise. Their agreements with their composers seems different from other places in the industry as far as I'm aware.

 

[KMDP]

Honestly I could see this scenario playing out truthfully:

Geno IS the Square rep and leads the charge.

Sora gets in later as a Disney rep. People have confused him as a Square rep, but the trademark he would add would be Disney and thus he'd be treated as such I'm sure.

Both were negotiated at the same time however since Square would be included in Sora's equation either way.

Sounds about right to me.

They would have to go through Nomura at some point in the negotiations, even if Disney holds the rights to Sora.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Kingdom hearts 1 and 2 begin and end in unique worlds. Donald and Goofy and Micky and all other Disney characters were not necessary for the overall story. The main plot exists with or without them. Sure, Mickey is almost central to the plot, but the plot doesn’t require Disney worlds to work.

They could replace all Disney characters with original characters and the main plot would remain the same.

And the series would not be as big as it is. Purely fact.

Kingdom Hearts is a megawatt franchise because it's hype and inception and creation and reasons fans initially are drawn to it is because it is a crossover with Disney.

If you put Kingdom Hearts in Smash and don't reference Disney. You are lying about it. It is the second biggest crossover in gaming and that's why it's a cultural icon.

Not because a bunch of spikey haired people and it's story. Yes, they are liked and loved, but without Disney, Kingdom Hearts is just another standard action RPG.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

With all this talk about SE, I wonder. On the topic of Sora, would Disney be the harder company to work with, or would it actually be SE?

The problem is that they both have a say so. People don’t realize that licensing characters out takes more than a couple people. In Disney’s case it’d have to at least make it’s way up the corporate ladder, at which point it’ll probably get shut down. “Oh, we aren’t making billions of dollars off this licensing deal? Throw it out.” Creative Disney is cool. Real cool. Corporate Disney is the opposite. It’s composed of a bunch of ass hats.

Square is a matter of “Oh Nintendo wants to use this character? Contact the original creator, the design artist, the concept artist, and the Director to see if they’re ok with it.”

Cloud is a big ****ing deal guys. And no, just because the Disney games guy said it’s up to Nomura doesn’t mean he’s the only one that needs to be asked. People also wondered why KH always reused Disney worlds constantly and that’s because it’s easier to renew a license than going after a new one. A big reason I think there’s a huge gap between the numbered entries.

I’d be down for Sora. I would. But I REALLY don’t see it happening. Fingers crossed though.

 

[Noipoi]

Am I the only one who thinks both Sora and Geno could happen?
I'm not saying it's likely, but it's a possibility.

 

[KMDP]

And the series would not be as big as it is. Purely fact.

Kingdom Hearts is a megawatt franchise because it's hype and inception and creation and reasons fans initially are drawn to it is because it is a crossover with Disney.

If you put Kingdom Hearts in Smash and don't reference Disney. You are lying about it. It is the second biggest crossover in gaming and that's why it's a cultural icon.

Not because a bunch of spikey haired people and it's story. Yes, they are liked and loved, but without Disney, Kingdom Hearts is just another standard action RPG.

To sum it up.

People came for the Disney stuff, but stayed for Sora and the Gang (which includes Mickey, Donald and Goofy).

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Am I the only one who thinks both Sora and Geno could happen?
I'm not saying it's likely, but it's a possibility.

I literally just said this comrade Noipoi.

To sum it up.

People came for the Disney stuff, but stayed for Sora and the Gang (which includes Mickey, Donald and Goofy).

Boom. I don't like this trend I see here in this thread of ''DISNEY DOESN'T MATTER" to Kingdom Hearts because it's outright lying to yourself.

Central to the very core of Kingdom Hearts is friendship and it's power. That is very much represented through Sora's friendship with Donald and Goofy.

And since that friendship is one of my favorites in gaming it gets me a little ''Wut." to see people say the Disney of it all doesn't matter.

 

[Nethermoosen]

And the series would not be as big as it is. Purely fact.

Kingdom Hearts is a megawatt franchise because it's hype and inception and creation and reasons fans initially are drawn to it is because it is a crossover with Disney.

If you put Kingdom Hearts in Smash and don't reference Disney. You are lying about it. It is the second biggest crossover in gaming and that's why it's a cultural icon.

Not because a bunch of spikey haired people and it's story. Yes, they are liked and loved, but without Disney, Kingdom Hearts is just another standard action RPG.

They aren’t lying about Cloud by the absence of his party members. Sora will be getting in. Not Donald and Goofy. They don’t need to be there for Sora to matter.

I agree, Disney helped make the mark, but Sora is now a titan and he has acquired the status of icon, able to stand on his own.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

Square Enix easily.

Remember, this is the company that didn't let Final Fantasy expand its representation within Smash Bros. We still have one stage and two versions of the same music track. This is also the company that is (likely) keeping Geno from being in Smash as a playable character because he isn't relevant and popular enough.

There's little to no way Disney can be harder to work with, especially with how much they like free money.

Interesting.

I hope that if Sora ends up being DLC, that the music that comes with isn't limited like FF's was.

 

[Noipoi]

I literally just said this comrade Noipoi.

That's what I get for skimming through the last few pages

 

[DraginHikari]

The problem is that they both have a say so. People don’t realize that licensing characters out takes more than a couple people. In Disney’s case it’d have to at least make it’s way up the corporate ladder, at which point it’ll probably get shut down. “Oh, we aren’t making billions of dollars off this licensing deal? Throw it out.” Creative Disney is cool. Real cool. Corporate Disney is the opposite. It’s composed of a bunch of *** hats.

Square is a matter of “Oh Nintendo wants to use this character? Contact the original creator, the design artist, the concept artist, and the Director to see if they’re ok with it.”

Cloud is a big ****ing deal guys. And no, just because the Disney games guy said it’s up to Nomura doesn’t mean he’s the only one that needs to be asked. People also wondered why KH always reused Disney worlds constantly and that’s because it’s easier to renew a license than going after a new one. A big reason I think there’s a huge gap between the numbered entries.

I’d be down for Sora. I would. But I REALLY don’t see it happening. Fingers crossed though.

This entirely. I think people sometimes forget how convoluted and massive companies like that are. The number of steps in the ladder of these negotiations are sometimes mind boggling.

I don't work for a game company but I do work in a technology field even for something as simple as a bug fix needs to go through a number of departments before your allowed to do anything that would cost a company ANY money or pose a public concern for them. None the less something that involved 3rd party negotiations.

 

[PsySmasher]

Am I the only one who thinks both Sora and Geno could happen?
I'm not saying it's likely, but it's a possibility.

Yeah it's possible.

But considering we only have 5 DLC newcomers total, do you think there's a chance that a 3rd party can get multiple reps from different series?

 

[Hammer B]

People say that Smash Ultimate is the first game in which the Piranha Plant is a playable character, but, are we going to ignore this?:

The only thing that I regret is that it doesn't have caps (like Mario's one) as alternate costumes. In fact, it would look great with Waluigi's one.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

So......Bowsette confirmed for Smash U DLC? :3

Or......even better.

 

[doomedtacox]

So is Incineroar really the slowest character in the game, like slower than Bowser, Dedede, etc? Cause he doesn't look very slow in the trailer...

 

[Deleted member]

The problem is that they both have a say so. People don’t realize that licensing characters out takes more than a couple people. In Disney’s case it’d have to at least make it’s way up the corporate ladder, at which point it’ll probably get shut down. “Oh, we aren’t making billions of dollars off this licensing deal? Throw it out.” Creative Disney is cool. Real cool. Corporate Disney is the opposite. It’s composed of a bunch of *** hats.

Square is a matter of “Oh Nintendo wants to use this character? Contact the original creator, the design artist, the concept artist, and the Director to see if they’re ok with it.”

Cloud is a big ****ing deal guys. And no, just because the Disney games guy said it’s up to Nomura doesn’t mean he’s the only one that needs to be asked. People also wondered why KH always reused Disney worlds constantly and that’s because it’s easier to renew a license than going after a new one. A big reason I think there’s a huge gap between the numbered entries.

I’d be down for Sora. I would. But I REALLY don’t see it happening. Fingers crossed though.

Would this explain possibly Kingdom Hearts 3 having the least amount of worlds in a Kingdom Hearts game?

 

[Rummy]

Kingdom hearts 1 and 2 begin and end in unique worlds. Donald and Goofy and Micky and all other Disney characters were not necessary for the overall story. The main plot exists with or without them. Sure, Mickey is almost central to the plot, but the plot doesn’t require Disney worlds to work.

They could replace all Disney characters with original characters and the main plot would remain the same.

But would that be faithful to his Origins as a crossover between a huge RPG series and a massive multimedia company? Talking in present tense here.

Sure Cloud barely got represented in Smash as DLC, Only having Midgar as a Stage, 2 tracks and a few Summons. But it came with a Chocobo hat and Geno Mii Costume. I'd say in terms of references and his moveset, he's as much Cloud can be within the rights given to the Smash Team. But Sora would struggle without the Disney touch i feel.

 

[doomedtacox]

Alright, updated my predictions on DLC.

-Sora
-Bandana Dee
-Tibby
-Crash
-Doomguy
-Elma

One of these characters won't make it to the first 5 but I think they all have things going their way. I think the time when DLC characters were decided upon depends on whether I think we're getting Crash and/or Doomguy.

Very sorry, Geno. I want to be wrong about you.

So where does the minecraft content fit in then?

 

[LetterO]

Am I the only one who thinks both Sora and Geno could happen?
I'm not saying it's likely, but it's a possibility.

A trailer with Sora showing up, then all of a sudden he's shot by a beam. He looks behind him, and there's Geno.

That's pure hype energy right there.

 

[zabimaru1000]

I don't understand, why are people so quick to count out Geno and certain that Sora is going to get in.

I like both characters, but I feel like Geno has the best chance out of anyone to get in as DLC.

 

[Noipoi]

It could've went down like this.

Sakurai: Gimme Geno.

Square: **** You. Here's Sora now advertise our game.

Sakurai: If I take Sora can I take Geno too?

Square: **** it, we're not using him. Just go make us some money!

 

[Nethermoosen]

Double post. PLS delete.

Yet Riku drove home the power of frienship more than the others. No one is saying they aren’t important. They just aren’t necessary for Sora to be represented elsewhere since he is now so popular.

Dream Drop Distance, for example. Donald and Goofy weren’t there for you. Also the most recent title in the series. They were replaced by original “dream spirit” designs.

Sora and Riku are the main protagonists, not the Disney characters.

 

[DraginHikari]

Would this explain possibly Kingdom Hearts 3 having the least amount of worlds in a Kingdom Hearts game?

I would say it's a definitely a possibility, I can't image the number of lawyers involved in the copyright discussions of something that caliber.

 

[LetterO]

So where does the minecraft content fit in then?

IDK, as Spirits? I've been less inclined to believe "Minecrat content" as it's much more vague then what Verge usually says.

 

[Idon]

But would that be faithful to his Origins as a crossover between a huge RPG series and a massive multimedia company? Talking in present tense here.

Sure Cloud barely got represented in Smash as DLC, Only having Midgar as a Stage, 2 tracks and a few Summons. But it came with a Chocobo hat and Geno Mii Costume. I'd say in terms of references and his moveset, he's as much Cloud can be within the rights given to the Smash Team. But Sora would struggle without the Disney touch i feel.

Im gonna be real with you.

KH isn't FF X Disney as much as it is FF ft. Disney.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

They aren’t lying about Cloud by the absence of his party members. Sora will be getting in. Not Donald and Goofy. They don’t need to be there for Sora to matter.

To be fair? Cloud's storyline relies mostly on his relationship with Aerith and Tifa.. They're all iconic because Final Fantasy VII is just stupid popular, but storyline wise Tifa and Aerith are pretty relevant to Cloud's story where as the others are just kind of there.

Here you have a kid whose on a journey to save his friends with friendship is magic as a theme and who are his two best friends? His only two consistent party members. Donald and Goofy.

Two Disney characters.

 

[doomedtacox]

I don't understand, why are people so quick to count out Geno and certain that Sora is going to get in.

I like both characters, but I feel like Geno has the best chance out of anyone to get in as DLC.

Because he's a "literally who?" character to many, many of the people that play smash.

 

[Noipoi]

Yeah it's possible.

But considering we only have 5 DLC newcomers total, do you think there's a chance that a 3rd party can get multiple reps from different series?

Maybe not, but nothing's impossible.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

And the series would not be as big as it is. Purely fact.

Kingdom Hearts is a megawatt franchise because it's hype and inception and creation and reasons fans initially are drawn to it is because it is a crossover with Disney.

If you put Kingdom Hearts in Smash and don't reference Disney. You are lying about it. It is the second biggest crossover in gaming and that's why it's a cultural icon.

Not because a bunch of spikey haired people and it's story. Yes, they are liked and loved, but without Disney, Kingdom Hearts is just another standard action RPG.

Sora himself represents the crossover between Disney and Final Fantasy perfectly. He is literally the cross between the two, and I feel like that would represent the series properly enough in Smash Bros.

If Sora gets into Smash, it's on his own merits, not on the coattails of Disney.

To sum it up.

People came for the Disney stuff, but stayed for Sora and the Gang (which includes Mickey, Donald and Goofy).

That too.

The problem is that they both have a say so. People don’t realize that licensing characters out takes more than a couple people. In Disney’s case it’d have to at least make it’s way up the corporate ladder, at which point it’ll probably get shut down. “Oh, we aren’t making billions of dollars off this licensing deal? Throw it out.” Creative Disney is cool. Real cool. Corporate Disney is the opposite. It’s composed of a bunch of *** hats.

Square is a matter of “Oh Nintendo wants to use this character? Contact the original creator, the design artist, the concept artist, and the Director to see if they’re ok with it.”

Cloud is a big ****ing deal guys. And no, just because the Disney games guy said it’s up to Nomura doesn’t mean he’s the only one that needs to be asked. People also wondered why KH always reused Disney worlds constantly and that’s because it’s easier to renew a license than going after a new one. A big reason I think there’s a huge gap between the numbered entries.

I’d be down for Sora. I would. But I REALLY don’t see it happening. Fingers crossed though.

I feel like that's a rather pessimistic way of looking at it. I feel like Corporate Disney wouldn't be so fast to turn down Smash. It's the Infinity Wars of video games, and represents a massive opportunity for profit and promotion. Additionally, if Sakurai has Normura at his side to help negotiations, I feel like he has a much better chance, given Disney's respect for him.

Disney has stated that a major point in using the Kingdom Hearts IP is representing it faithfully, and who better to do so than Sakurai? Dude has a proven track record of doing this, as proven with every series in Smash Bros.

If anyone can do this, it's Sakurai.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I feel like everyone who brings up the composer thing has genuinly never played a DQ game and uses the argument to understate the series

Its shame too since Dragon Quest V is one of the best JRPGs ive ever played. I cant tell you how many times that game brought me to tears. Id suggest anyone who wants to get into to the series to buy the ds remake of DQV or emulate it if that helps. I was blown away the first time playing it.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Would this explain possibly Kingdom Hearts 3 having the least amount of worlds in a Kingdom Hearts game?

Probably, I mean at this point they had to even bring Pixar AND Marvel into the mix to make sure all the licensing checked out.

Not only did they have to go through Disney they had to get Disney’s approval to go through Pixar, for Toy Story and Monsters Inc., and Marvel, for Big Hero 6, and THEN dish it out with those two companies. It’s an impressive feat what they’ve been able to do with KHIII, it really is. People don’t realize how much work it takes behind the scenes of these big crossover games before development even starts. And we ALL know how terrible development can be. The crunch is real nowadays.

 

[doomedtacox]

IDK, as Spirits? I've been less inclined to believe "Minecrat content" as it's much more vague then what Verge usually says.

Interesting, keep in mind he isn't the only one who's said that, Hitagi did as well and was more specific.

 

[Deleted member]

Probably, I mean at this point they had to even bring Pixar AND Marvel into the mix to make sure all the licensing checked out.

Not only did they have to go through Disney they had to get Disney’s approval to go through Pixar, for Toy Story and Monsters Inc., and Marvel, for Big Hero 6, and THEN dish it out with those two companies. It’s an impressive feat what they’ve been able to do with KHIII, it really is. People don’t realize how much work it takes behind the scenes of these big crossover games before development even starts. And we ALL know how terrible development can be. The crunch is real nowadays.

I would say it's a definitely a possibility, I can't image the number of lawyers involved in the copyright discussions of something that caliber.

Well, ****. Now I'm kinda wondering if Sakurai and the dev team are willing to go THAT far, because it looks like with Final Fantasy VII that was the farthest Sakurai could feasibly go.