Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DaybreakHorizon]

Even though a slew of very credible leakers have released 3 out of the 5 DLC characters, remember

Only Sora has definitively leaked, and even then there are conflicting reports out there.

I'd say all five of the slots are still up in the air really. We need to either see them revealed or wait to hear more information from insiders (which is unlikely given how none of the Sm4sh DLC was leaked by an outside source).

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The timing of Sakurai's DLC plan leads me to think that we're not getting these extreme ''OH MY GOD SO SHOCKING CHOICES" like Sora, Steve, etc, everyone is thinking.

It leads me to think they were characters he designed and had hopes for for base game, but the workload was far too much and they just were priorities but priorites that didnt make it in the game.

If you plan to add Sora he's certainly not gonna be one of those types of characters. The only way Sora would wait is if you just purely wanted to have a strong lead in character and **** fan wants like Geno/Dixie/Toad, etc they can be those lead in characters as well.

You don't need ''SUPER MEGAWATT THIRD PARTY STAR SORA IS HERE!"

Yes, I will continue to use pessimistic counter logic to calm people's expectations and make my board husband Burb proud in his absence.

 

[LetterO]

Hey, at least you're not rooting for my Square Enix most wanted...
>when you don't see anyone talking about Neku Sakuraba for Smash despite being the most unique DS game
View attachment 175582

Oh, I'd LOVE Neku. I've been enjoying TWEWY Final Remix, and if Neku got in I'd love it. The problem is alot of other SE characters would probably get in over him.

 

[KMDP]

It's simply unlikely from the perspective of time management. Why assign a team to the animation, texture creation, sound effects, hitboxes, AI and playtesting of the AT version of a character if you're just going to make it an actual character later?

The only possibility for an AT to be upgraded to a character is if Sakurai or the rest of the development team had a hard change of mind after making the AT and thought, "Hey, that guy should be a full-fledged character!" Not impossible, but also not at all likely. We shouldn't treat it as a fact so much as a reasonable assumption that could be disproven in the future.

Sakurai does whatever the **** Sakurai wants.

I'd like to respectfully disagree with the "time management" thing: all that work done to make the Assist Trophy can be used as the groundwork to make a playable character later.

It also works the other way; here's a hypothetical: Sakurai makes a shortlist of characters and sets a deadline for the game to be released (and presumably, a deadline by which all characters must be made). If they can't make all the characters they want to, then the characters they haven't finished yet get held off for DLC; first party characters and third party characters who were already in the previous game as ATs get turned into Assist Trophies until they are later finished and can be turned into full-fledged characters.

Spoiler: Wild Tinfoil and Straws Appear

To be more specific, let's say Sakurai had this as his shortlist:
Original Characters

1. Inkling
2. Ridley
3. Simon
4. King K. Rool
5. Incineroar
6. Isaac
7. Shadow
8. Banjo
9. Sora
10. Geno
11. Piranha Plant

Echo Fighters

1. Daisy
2. Richter
3. Chrom
4. Dark Samus
5. Isabelle
6. Ken

During development, Sakurai realises Isabelle are becoming a little too different from Villager, and so he decides to break her off as a character to be her own thing; however, this causes a shift in focus.

At some point later in development, Sakurai realises that Isaac, Shadow, Banjo, Sora and Geno are not going to be done in time for release (maybe the Veterans were more difficult than Sakurai thought they'd be, or maybe he initially expected the game to release July 2019 and the date got pulled forward and those characters were lower priority). So they stop/slow production on them for the time being, Isaac and Shadow are repurposed back into Assist Trophies so that they are at least in the game (seriously, people would complain if they weren't, especially Shadow, trust me).

However, this also gives them five characters to work on for DLC. As for Piranha Plant, I'm sure he's not... that difficult to produce, relatively speaking. XD

Now, I don't want to hear "that's such a stretch" or "that's insane/straw-grasping" or "but [leaker] said this", because I am 100% aware that I am probably wrong.

Regardless of all these points I've just made, I'm also quite tired, so... *shrug*

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

I mean, the most he can have is a Mii outfit, and apparently a PNG render of his old artwork.


If he was at least like, I dunno an Assist Trophy like Bomberman is, it'd be understandable, but it seems like the rights around SMRPG are ridiculous.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Dragon Quest is in a state of maximum legal snafu.

Disney has at least made the direct statement that they'd be chill with Sora in Smash, and past that they only need 1 'yes' from the guy who made him (name escapes me). Sora is surprisingly only a skip and a hop away, in theory, and an absolute moneymaker at the same time, AND is pretty darn popular. It's the perfect crime 3rd party situation.

 

[Idon]

Oh, I'd LOVE Neku. I've been enjoying TWEWY Final Remix, and if Neku got in I'd love it. The problem is alot of other SE characters would probably get in over him.

Honestly, I'd love Neku just for the MUSIC.

it's pretty much Xenoblade X OST done right.

 

[Jetsurge]

The timing of Sakurai's DLC plan leads me to think that we're not getting these extreme ''OH MY GOD SO SHOCKING CHOICES" like Sora, Steve, etc, everyone is thinking.

x Doubt. I'm pretty sure the reason dlc was chosen early was so they could get all the contracts done early so I'm expecting most of them to be 3rd party.

 

[Shroob]

I mean, the other option is we just don't 'get' Geno at all, and we don't get a nice, HD render that modernizes the character.


As much as some people hate the ideas of popular characters becoming Assists, I'd rather have it happen(Isaac), than not have them in the game at all.

 

[LetterO]

Honestly, I'd love Neku just for the MUSIC.

it's pretty much Xenoblade X OST done right.

I need remixes of Calling and Twister now.

 

[Nethermoosen]

What if Geno ended up in Kingdom Hearts 3 as the evil counterpart to Pinocchio’s heart?

Would that not be the coolest surprise boss ever?

 

[DraginHikari]

Dragon Quest is in a state of maximum legal snafu.

Disney has at least made the direct statement that they'd be chill with Sora in Smash, and past that they only need 1 'yes' from the guy who made him (name escapes me). Sora is surprisingly only a skip and a hop away, in theory, and an absolute moneymaker at the same time, AND is pretty darn popular. It's the perfect crime 3rd party situation.

The problem with quotes like that is they very rarely come from the departments that actually make those kind of decisions and especially not the ones who do contract negotiations for such things.

 

[Idon]

What if Geno ended up in Kingdom Hearts 3 as the evil counterpart to Pinocchio’s heart?

Would that not be the coolest surprise boss ever?

Dude, that would be the coolest reference of ALL time.
Way better than having him locked up in the basement for eternity.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

x Doubt. I'm pretty sure the reason dlc was chosen early was so they could get all the contracts done early so I'm expecting most of them to be 3rd party.

Some will be third party for sure I have no doubts about that, but I think everyone's got this warped perception that it has to be a repeat performance of last time where we got rapid fire Ryu, Cloud, and Bayonetta.

 

[Shroob]

Dragon Quest is in a state of maximum legal snafu.

Disney has at least made the direct statement that they'd be chill with Sora in Smash, and past that they only need 1 'yes' from the guy who made him (name escapes me). Sora is surprisingly only a skip and a hop away, in theory, and an absolute moneymaker at the same time, AND is pretty darn popular. It's the perfect crime 3rd party situation.

My issue with DQ boils down to the music.


The composer isn't going to let his music go to us "Filthy gaijins", and since Ultimate is 1 game across all regions, they can't even replace the music with MIDIs for us.

 

[CrunchyCHEEZIT]

ima be real.
there's so much more to care about besides the roster now.

I feel like you're actively ruining your own enjoyment of the game if you keep holding your breath over characters that probably won't be revealed until, like, next spring. DLC is so much more of a different beast that I feel like trying to stay "dedicated" to a certain character won't do much for their likelihood in the long run and will probably do more harm to your expectations than anything else but that's just me.

that being said, January is gonna be DAMN long waiting for . can a real one get that dope ass song they used for his reveal?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Honestly, I think the best way to deduce who's the supposed Square Enix rep is to find out what "leak" ruffled SE's feathers. I remember hearing about that, but I don't think anyone has been able to pinpoint what "leak" it actually was. I have my own ideas, but it'll likely get me into an argument, so I'll refrain from sharing it at this time.

Did someone say ARGUMENT? I love those!

I'm pretty sure the statement about the leak that ruffled Square Enix's feathers was made around the same time Spawn Wave hinted at Sora. Don't quote me on that though. Which leak do you believe it was?

The timing of Sakurai's DLC plan leads me to think that we're not getting these extreme ''OH MY GOD SO SHOCKING CHOICES" like Sora, Steve, etc, everyone is thinking.

It leads me to think they were characters he designed and had hopes for for base game, but the workload was far too much and they just were priorities but priorites that didnt make it in the game.

If you plan to add Sora he's certainly not gonna be one of those types of characters. The only way Sora would wait is if you just purely wanted to have a strong lead in character and **** fan wants like Geno/Dixie/Toad, etc they can be those lead in characters as well.

You don't need ''SUPER MEGAWATT THIRD PARTY STAR SORA IS HERE!"

Yes, I will continue to use pessimistic counter logic to calm people's expectations and make my board husband Burb proud in his absence.

Excuse u I am the self-proclaimed Burb of this board and I take offense to this statement.

Could you clarify this argument? I'm 99.99% sure I agree with it, but it's kinda confusing to read. As I understand, you're saying that DLC choices like Sora and Steve were initially planned but didn't make it into the base game so they were pushed back to DLC?

 

[Idon]

My issue with DQ boils down to the music.


The composer isn't going to let his music go to us "Filthy gaijins", and since Ultimate is 1 game across all regions, they can't even replace the music with MIDIs for us.

Just make bootleg versions of all the OST.
Done.

 

[KMDP]

The timing of Sakurai's DLC plan leads me to think that we're not getting these extreme ''OH MY GOD SO SHOCKING CHOICES" like Sora, Steve, etc, everyone is thinking.

It leads me to think they were characters he designed and had hopes for for base game, but the workload was far too much and they just were priorities but priorites that didnt make it in the game.

If you plan to add Sora he's certainly not gonna be one of those types of characters. The only way Sora would wait is if you just purely wanted to have a strong lead in character and **** fan wants like Geno/Dixie/Toad, etc they can be those lead in characters as well.

x Doubt. I'm pretty sure the reason dlc was chosen early was so they could get all the contracts done early so I'm expecting most of them to be 3rd party.

Insert "Why not both?" gif here.

 

[Calane]

I'm also conflicted in believing that Dragon Quest would get in.


I don't think the rights to Dragon Quest would be THAT hard, but oh my god the music....


The Dragon Quest composer is literal human garbage.

From what I understand, the man doesn't want people to use the orchestrated music. I believe the composer dude would be okay with it as long as just the MIDI versions were used. At least, that's how I understand it.

And if he really proved to be a problem, I hear that he didn't compose the music for "Dragon Quest Swords", so they could probably just take music from that game and be done with it.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

Dragon Quest is in a state of maximum legal snafu.

Disney has at least made the direct statement that they'd be chill with Sora in Smash, and past that they only need 1 'yes' from the guy who made him (name escapes me). Sora is surprisingly only a skip and a hop away, in theory, and an absolute moneymaker at the same time, AND is pretty darn popular. It's the perfect crime 3rd party situation.

Tetsuya Nomura is the name that was on the tip of your tongue.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

What if Geno ended up in Kingdom Hearts 3 as the evil counterpart to Pinocchio’s heart?

Would that not be the coolest surprise boss ever?

That would be really cool! :D

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

The problem with quotes like that is they very rarely come from the departments that actually make those kind of decisions and especially not the ones who do contract negotiations for such things.

Dude was an executive at Disney (see: HMK's Sora video) and not some mook, and PlayerOneTyler worked on Disney Infinity, which had the Keyblade as a secret item, can vouch for the veracity of the approval process to use Sora.

 

[KMDP]

Did someone say ARGUMENT? I love those!

I'm pretty sure the statement about the leak that ruffled Square Enix's feathers was made around the same time Spawn Wave hinted at Sora. Don't quote me on that though. Which leak do you believe it was?

Excuse u I am the self-proclaimed Burb of this board and I take offense to this statement.

Could you clarify this argument? I'm 99.99% sure I agree with it, but it's kinda confusing to read. As I understand, you're saying that DLC choices like Sora and Steve were initially planned but didn't make it into the base game so they were pushed back to DLC?

I think he's saying that the DLC choices were characters that the Dev Team couldn't get done in time, so they stopped production on them at some point and pushed them back to be DLC.

They don't need to be Sora and Steve and the like, in that case, they could also be lower priority first parties (like Isaac, Dixie, Bandana Dee, Gardevoir, etc etc).

EDIT: As "proof", take a look at all the characters we ended up getting:

All of them could be considered high-priority characters (New IP, two biggest long time fan wants, third party, highly popular character among casuals, new Pokémon), none of them would (or could) be shunted back for DLC.

Echoes don't count because they are, by definition, easy to make.

 

[Rummy]

I might be at the wrong side of history but i'm still hoping for Geno.
I'd be down with Sora or the DQ Character but if the DLC was planned around the same time as Ultimate's Planning stage then i feel like Geno is more likely the SE Rep. Plus if anyone can quote on me on this but didn't Sakurai just confirm DLC Development? When Sakurai showed Mewtwo, it took several months before the DLC Train kicked into high gear, i'd be weird to have one of the fighters randomly announced the VGAs when the only DLC outside of the fighter pass we know is the Cool Plant.
I think Metroid Prime 4 is more likely to be shown off than a DLC Character.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Could you clarify this argument? I'm 99.99% sure I agree with it, but it's kinda confusing to read. As I understand, you're saying that DLC choices like Sora and Steve were initially planned but didn't make it into the base game so they were pushed back to DLC?

I'm saying that if you planned Sora and Steve that early in advance you wouldn't make them wait UNLESS you just wanted to wait to have a strong fighter roster for DLC, but I'm also saying you don't NEED them.

I'm seeing a lot of ''Obviously -blank fan favorite- wouldn't be able to sell fighter pass" and that **** is just wrong. If we go to the VGAs and Geno was announced. People are gonna buy that fighter pass. Because he's a long standing Smash fan want.

We get there? And it's Dixie? People gonna buy it because she's a Nintendo all-star.

You don't need a Sora or a Steve to lead the charge. And that's the thought process I'm seeing.

 

[Deleted member]

My issue with DQ boils down to the music.


The composer isn't going to let his music go to us "Filthy gaijins", and since Ultimate is 1 game across all regions, they can't even replace the music with MIDIs for us.

Wait, hold up. Dragon Quest's composer is a racist?

...I mean, I WOULD Scottpost, but yikes. Yeah, I legit don't think DQ is ever getting in, if that's the case.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

So... Sora is essencially confirmed now?

Perhaps. All you have to do is call out to that piece of memory... that glimmers faintly deep inside your heart.

 

[Shroob]

Wait, hold up. Dragon Quest's composer is a racist?

...I mean, I WOULD Scottpost, but yikes. Yeah, I legit don't think DQ is ever getting in, if that's the case.

Japanese nationalist, iirc.

It's the reason that DQ8 had an orchestral soundtrack in the 3DS version for Japan while we got MIDI remakes.

 

[DraginHikari]

Dude was an executive at Disney (see: HMK's Sora video), and PlayerOneTyler who worked on Disney Infinity, which had the Keyblade as a secret item, can vouch for the veracity of the approval process to use Sora.

Company Executives are generally not the ones who write up contract negotiations for issues related to copyright between different parties. They have a lot of influnces, I'm not trying to play that down, but they are generally not the only one involved in the decision itself. I'm just saying what companies say in PR situations does not always pan out once you get down to issues of money and neogtiation.

 

[PLATINUM7]

From what I understand, the man doesn't want people to use the orchestrated music. I believe the composer dude would be okay with it as long as just the MIDI versions were used. At least, that's how I understand it.

And if he really proved to be a problem, I hear that he didn't compose the music for "Dragon Quest Swords", so they could probably just take music from that game and be done with it.

Beyond the MIDI BS the Dragon Quest composer is a war crime denier and is anti-LGBT.

IIRC he funds a war-crime denying group. He also appeared on some controversial TV show laughing at the idea of homosexuals killing themselves because they're useless to society.

 

[LetterO]

Alright, updated my predictions on DLC.

-Sora
-Bandana Dee
-Tibby
-Crash
-Doomguy
-Elma

One of these characters won't make it to the first 5 but I think they all have things going their way. I think the time when DLC characters were decided upon depends on whether I think we're getting Crash and/or Doomguy.

Very sorry, Geno. I want to be wrong about you.

 

[Deleted member]

Japanese nationalist, iirc.

It's the reason that DQ8 had an orchestral soundtrack in the 3DS version for Japan while we got MIDI remakes.

Wow. Yeah, I honestly don't see how Dragon Quest will ever get into Smash at all. ****ing pathetic that a franchise is held back by a Japanese nationalist.
Well, with Dragon Quest out of the running, I can only see Sora being the Square rep.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Well I think Konami ****ed their characters so hard that they are cheaper and easier to get

Thaaaaaat's not how that works. Konami may suck in the eyes of gamers but profit for the Silent Hill, Castlevania, and Metal Gear series have been up for the past, er, decade. Pachinko does a lot to increase your brand whether we like it or not.

If Konami wanted to pull a Square than they most definitely could. Square is just, I don't want to say overprotective, they're just hard to work with I think. I don't even necessarily think it's their fault. A lot of their copyrights don't even fall exclusively under them. FFVII music, for example, is wholly owned by the original composer save for a few tracks from the original FFVII. It's weird. They have the strangest copyright deals in the industry and it puts them in a whole.

For clarity, Square has the sole right to the USE of Final Fantasy soundtracks. They can not freely distribute it though. That comes down to the composer. Square Enix is good to use FF music in their own projects but licensing it out to other companies is REALLY tricky and very specific. Square probably did the best they could without contacting the original composer whom, last I heard, was hospitalized for health reasons.

The only thing I think Square could be called stingy for is not offering up an Assist Trophy character when other companies gave multiple. Even then, all the summons from FFVII appear in Midgar so. I dunno. Square can be a hard company to work with but i don't think their Smash content is entirely their fault.

 

[DraginHikari]

Wait, hold up. Dragon Quest's composer is a racist?

...I mean, I WOULD Scottpost, but yikes. Yeah, I legit don't think DQ is ever getting in, if that's the case.

The guy has quite the reputation in general, as much as I like the Dragon Quest series I can't really deny that I cannot say very many nice things about the guy outside the quality of his music. Though Racist would be the wrong term since it's appears to be more about nationality then race.

 

[KMDP]

I'm saying that if you planned Sora and Steve that early in advance you wouldn't make them wait UNLESS you just wanted to wait to have a strong fighter roster for DLC, but I'm also saying you don't NEED them.

I'm seeing a lot of ''Obviously -blank fan favorite- wouldn't be able to sell fighter pass" and that **** is just wrong. If we go to the VGAs and Geno was announced. People are gonna buy that fighter pass. Because he's a long standing Smash fan want.

We get there? And it's Dixie? People gonna buy it because she's a Nintendo all-star.

You don't need a Sora or a Steve to lead the charge. And that's the thought process I'm seeing.

*places tin-foil hat firmly on head*

The five DLC characters will be Isaac, Shadow, Bandana Dee, Dixie Kong and Geno; in no particular order.

Rex, Banjo, Sora and Steve will come in season two.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

My issue with DQ boils down to the music.


The composer isn't going to let his music go to us "Filthy gaijins", and since Ultimate is 1 game across all regions, they can't even replace the music with MIDIs for us.

DQ music wont have any issue as long as its not rearranged by another composer or uses the the actual composers orhestrated tunes


We'll just get midi tunes. I dont know why you guys make it sound like its a super dificult thing. DQ music has been used in crossovers before.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Thaaaaaat's not how that works. Konami may suck in the eyes of gamers but profit for the Silent Hill, Castlevania, and Metal Gear series have been up for the past, er, decade. Pachinko does a lot to increase your brand whether we like it or not.

If Konami wanted to pull a Square than they most definitely could. Square is just, I don't want to say overprotective, they're just hard to work with I think. I don't even necessarily think it's their fault. A lot of their copyrights don't even fall exclusively under them. FFVII music, for example, is wholly owned by the original composer save for a few tracks from the original FFVII. It's weird. They have the strangest copyright deals in the industry and it puts them in a whole.

For clarity, Square has the sole right to the USE of Final Fantasy soundtracks. They can not freely distribute it though. That comes down to the composer. Square Enix is good to use FF music in their own projects but licensing it out to other companies is REALLY tricky and very specific. Square probably did the best they could without contacting the original composer whom, last I heard, was hospitalized for health reasons.

The only thing I think Square could be called stingy for is not offering up an Assist Trophy character when other companies gave multiple. Even then, all the summons from FFVII appear in Midgar so. I dunno. Square can be a hard company to work with but i don't think their Smash content is entirely their fault.

Uematsu went on hiatus for health so contacting him now might not be the best time. That said, I found it so werid that getting his music in Smash is such a hurdle given that he composed Brawl's theme. Like how much did he ask for to do that vs how much is he asking for to use his FF songs?

 

[Deleted member]

The guy has quite the reputation in general, as much as I like the Dragon Quest series I can't really deny that I cannot say very many nice things about the guy outside the quality of his music. Though Racist would be the wrong term since it's appears to be more about nationality then race.

Even then, it's pretty ****ing disgusting. We're all pretty much moving on and starting to learn and grow. And it's unfortunate that the Dragon Quest composer also has a stranglehold, apparently.

It's sad, really.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

With all this talk about SE, I wonder. On the topic of Sora, would Disney be the harder company to work with, or would it actually be SE?