Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TMNTSSB4]

OK guys. Bowser Jr may literally be the worst character in Ultimate.

All of his tilts have less range.
Mechakoopa was nerfed.
Up B explosion was nerfed.
Up B Hammer seems faster but has less range.
Can still be gimped after Up B.

WHAT THE ACTUAL **** SAKURAI.

Junior just wanted to have some fun and **** some ****

 

[SAMation]

OK guys. Bowser Jr may literally be the worst character in Ultimate.

All of his tilts have less range.
Mechakoopa was nerfed.
Up B explosion was nerfed.
Up B Hammer seems faster but has less range.
Can still be gimped after Up B.

WHAT THE ACTUAL **** SAKURAI.

Oh thats a yikes from me

 

[KMDP]

When we have stuff like this happen, especially with Mewtwo and Lucas back in the Smash 4 days, you really can't say anything is "deconfirmed".

View attachment 175573

Regarding this, something I'd like to get off my chest.

I'd like people who think being an Assist Trophy, Trophy/Spirit or whatever is a Hard Disconfirmation to show us where exactly Sakurai said that a character can never be upgraded to playable status from a different status within the same game's life cycle.

And with Assist Trophies, don't say "It hasn't happened before, so it (probably) won't", because Sakurai has broken a lot of fan rules over the course of Smash's collective development.

 

[LetterO]

I'm not sure you understand my hope died long ago
Also that's a very broad assumption, Isaac was thrown in just like any other Assist Trophy for example. If Geno isn't a Spirit him being only a profile image is even worse news.

Isaac isn't a third party who's been clamored for years to the point where even having a Mii Costume was seen as special enough for a Splash Screen. Being a profile image doesn't deconfirm him for DLC like a Spirit or Assist Trophy would.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Soo what kind elven we talking about? Middle Earth Elvish, Dark Elvish, Hylian? Gotta know so we can decipher it’s meaning.

Seemed closer to Hylian.

 

[Zinith]

Anyone have any word on Jigglypuff? You know, the previous worst character in the game? What about Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man and all the rest of the bottom tiers?

 

[Nethermoosen]

Anyone have any word on Jigglypuff? You know, the previous worst character in the game? What about Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man and all the rest of the bottom tiers?

Jigs actually stood a chance against a Richter. I didn’t play her enough to know what changes were relevant. The player also wasn’t that good. She missed a free rest chance.

Seems better to me.

Edit: We already know Ganondorf and Zelda were buffed like mad. So that’s two bottom tiers rising.

Yoshi did get the egg bounce buff and that does mean something.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Don't lose hope when Geno is still totally possible. I don't even really think he's a Spirit. Otherwise, he would've definitely been shown off in some capacity or at least mentioned.

Or not.

He literally could've just not been mentioned.

A lot of characters have been skipped over being mentioned as Spirits. Geno could just fall into this category.

 

[Will]

Anyone have any word on Jigglypuff? You know, the previous worst character in the game? What about Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man and all the rest of the bottom tiers?

We really can't determine anything yet, all of these items had items on.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Spirits do not deconfirm characters. Spirits are a replacement for random Trophies, and Lucas and Mewtwo were not deconfirmed by Trophies. Geno's presence as an icon makes him 95% guaranteed a Spirit.

Geno is less likely at this point, but by no means deconfirmed. Hold on to hope, Luigi The President . It's what I had to do for 10 years. If there's anywhere dreams come true, it's Smash.

 

[Zinith]

Jigs actually stood a chance against a Richter. I didn’t play her enough to know what changes were relevant. The player also wasn’t that good. She missed a free rest chance.

Seems better to me.

Okay, was just trying to get abreast of the situation with Bowser Jr. to see where he'll be...

It's also taking my mind off of the fact that none of these players are using my boi

 

[staindgrey]

Regarding this, something I'd like to get off my chest.

I'd like people who think being an Assist Trophy, Trophy/Spirit or whatever is a Hard Disconfirmation to show us where exactly Sakurai said that a character can never be upgraded to playable status from a different status within the same game's life cycle.

And with Assist Trophies, don't say "It hasn't happened before, so it (probably) won't", because Sakurai has broken a lot of fan rules over the course of Smash's collective development.

It's simply unlikely from the perspective of time management. Why assign a team to the animation, texture creation, sound effects, hitboxes, AI and playtesting of the AT version of a character if you're just going to make it an actual character later?

The only possibility for an AT to be upgraded to a character is if Sakurai or the rest of the development team had a hard change of mind after making the AT and thought, "Hey, that guy should be a full-fledged character!" Not impossible, but also not at all likely. We shouldn't treat it as a fact so much as a reasonable assumption that could be disproven in the future.

Sakurai does whatever the **** Sakurai wants.

 

[Cheryl~]

Anyone have any word on Jigglypuff? You know, the previous worst character in the game? What about Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man and all the rest of the bottom tiers?

Jiggs seems a lot better than Smash 4 with the decreased landing lag changes, as well as her run speed being much better and apparently B-Air to B-Air is a thing now. Also with the increased importance of edgeguarding one of Puff's strongest traits becomes that much better, so I'd say she at least escapes out of the worst character pit, especially with the nerfs to another bottom-tier in 4. (Rest in peace Bowser Jr.)

Every other bottom-tier (Dedede, Zelda, Ganondorf Wii Fit, Pac-Man, Falco, Doc, some others iirc) also got buffed pretty significantly, except maybe Doc.

 

[PsySmasher]

Anyone have any word on Jigglypuff? You know, the previous worst character in the game? What about Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man and all the rest of the bottom tiers?

I'll only tackle Jigglypuff here since I haven't seen too much of the others in action.

On first glance, she actually looks better than she did in 4 and Brawl. While the person playing her wasn't very good, she seemed to hold her own against Richter and was actually able to survive to rage %.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

OK guys. Bowser Jr may literally be the worst character in Ultimate.

All of his tilts have less range.
Mechakoopa was nerfed.
Up B explosion was nerfed.
Up B Hammer seems faster but has less range.
Can still be gimped after Up B.

WHAT THE ACTUAL **** SAKURAI.

Bowser Jr. slept with Sakurai's wife. Hence the sharp nerfs.

Either that or he bullied Kirby and/or Pit. Don't mess with Daddy Sakurai.

Isaac isn't a third party who's been clamored for years to the point where even having a Mii Costume was seen as special enough for a Splash Screen. Being a profile image doesn't deconfirm him for DLC like a Spirit or Assist Trophy would.

You're right. He's a first party who's been clamored for for years. He seeming had everything lined up for him.

And he was still made into an assist trophy.

It's more than possible for Geno to meet a similar fate.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Bowser Jr. slept with Sakurai's wife. Hence the sharp nerfs.

Bruh...

That's so wrong...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

To be fair, Sakurai only added Lucas because he thought Mother 3 was also releasing outside of Japan.

He however kept Lucas in despite knowing this and made sure Ness is still in to appeal to Western audiences. So he ignored it overall instead of keeping Lucas out.

 

[Noipoi]

I'm certainly still holding out for Geno, but if Luigi The President doesn't want to we shouldn't force her.

I know what it's like to not want to be disappointed anymore.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I have updated my roster. I'm execpting Ridley to fall off first most likely and sadly, but we'll see:

 

[Idon]

YEAH OKAY, SO APPARENTLY WOLF SPENT THE LAST TEN YEARS TURNING INTO THE COOLEST CHARACTER IN THE ENTIRE GAME.

 

[staindgrey]

Anyone have any word on Jigglypuff? You know, the previous worst character in the game? What about Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man and all the rest of the bottom tiers?

Zelda is nothing but buffs.

But considering a lot of the cast is buffed, we'll need to see her in action for awhile post-launch to determine if those buffs amount to anything. This is definitely the best version of Zelda yet, though, without question.

inb4 "but her old downB was what made her good! hurr hurr

 

[LetterO]

Or not.

He literally could've just not been mentioned.

A lot of characters have been skipped over being mentioned as Spirits. Geno could just fall into this category.

I guess, but it seems weird how casually he's glossed over and not even shown outside of a profile cion.

 

[Shroob]

Isaac isn't a third party who's been clamored for years to the point where even having a Mii Costume was seen as special enough for a Splash Screen. Being a profile image doesn't deconfirm him for DLC like a Spirit or Assist Trophy would.

But him being a 3rd party is his biggest issue.


? Easy, Nintendo owns them.


Geno tho? Square's not in this to make us collectively NUTT, they want a profit. No matter how I look at it, comparing the likes of Geno to Sora or Dragon Quest is a losing battle.


Yeah, 'we' want Geno, the hardcore Smash fanbase, but 'we' are the minority of people who are going to be buying this game.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Okay, was just trying to get abreast of the situation with Bowser Jr. to see where he'll be...

It's also taking my mind off of the fact that none of these players are using my boi

No one used Olimar, either. I have seen one video with him in it since the full game has been playable. It was blurry and had 4 players. I learned nothing except the speed and trajectory of the Pikmin seem altered and have glowing trails...sometimes? Maybe a smash throw option added.

And the treehouse where he was played had 8 players and the dude had no idea what he was doing. Couldn’t see it anyways.

You aren’t alone. You have a month. People are gonna get chances to play throughout November. Just keep an eye out and worry less. You’re gonna play him anyways.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Regarding this, something I'd like to get off my chest.

I'd like people who think being an Assist Trophy, Trophy/Spirit or whatever is a Hard Disconfirmation to show us where exactly Sakurai said that a character can never be upgraded to playable status from a different status within the same game's life cycle.

And with Assist Trophies, don't say "It hasn't happened before, so it (probably) won't", because Sakurai has broken a lot of fan rules over the course of Smash's collective development.

The best way to think of it, in my opinion, is 'it's a pattern until it isn't anymore". It's best to assume 'fan-made rules' are true until Sakurai breaks them himself, thereby shattering the preconception and opening the floodgate. Lucas and Mewtwo broke down the 'Trophies deconfirm characters' border, Piranha Plant obliterated the 'no generic entities' rule, perhaps one day the 'Assists aren't upgraded in the same game' rule could be broken, but time will tell.

 

[osby]

Bowser Jr. slept with Sakurai's wife. Hence the sharp nerfs.

Either that or he bullied Kirby and/or Pit. Don't mess with Daddy Sakurai.

You're right. He's a first party who's been clamored for for years. He seeming had everything lined up for him.

And he was still made into an assist trophy.

It's more than possible for Geno to meet a similar fate.

I thought Kirby was bottom tier for three games straight.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Spirits do not deconfirm characters. Spirits are a replacement for random Trophies, and Lucas and Mewtwo were not deconfirmed by Trophies. Geno's presence as an icon makes him 95% guaranteed a Spirit.

Geno is less likely at this point, but by no means deconfirmed. Hold on to hope, Luigi The President . It's what I had to do for 10 years. If there's anywhere dreams come true, it's Smash.

I think its pretty safe to give up hope on Geno. Base roster was seemingly his chance given the many fan favorite choices and it didn't happen.

In fact, despite multiple attempts from Sakurai it still hasn't happened. Geno still isn't in Smash. Why?

Because Square Enix seems to refuse to let Geno be a playable character over their over more popular and relevant characters, and will only make minor concessions (Mii Costume, Spirit, etc.) to appease his fans.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

It seems decently likely that the Belmont’s will be high tier. Like, watching the gameplay and seeing people throw out cross to cover horizontal recovery, then axe to cover low recovery, and then Holy Water to cover the ledge all while being able to go after them off stage in between is crazy. The ONLY bad thing they have going for them is their recovery and close up combat. I’m close up combat though their jab and down smash does some work in making some space. And their recovery is also boosted by the fact they have a tether as well.

The Belmont’s are going to be ****ing whack in this game, guys.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

Bowser Jr. slept with Sakurai's wife. Hence the sharp nerfs.

Either that or he bullied Kirby and/or Pit. Don't mess with Daddy Sakurai.

Please don't talk about my main in this way, I already hate myself for loving him.

 

[Zinith]

No one used Olimar, either. I have seen one video with him in it since the full game has been playable. It was blurry and had 4 players. I learned nothing except the speed and trajectory of the Pikmin seem altered and have glowing trails...sometimes? Maybe a smash throw option added.

And the treehouse where he was played had 8 players and the dude had no idea what he was doing. Couldn’t see it anyways.

You aren’t alone. You have a month. People are gonna get chances to play throughout November. Just keep an eye out and worry less. You’re gonna play him anyways.

What's funny is that the Treehouse was referring to "Bill's Yoshi" as if it was a force to be reckoned with. Yeah sure...

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

I thought Kirby was bottom tier for three games straight.

Not anymore he isn't.

Bowser Jr. takes that spot now.

 

[Noipoi]

I think its pretty safe to give up hope on Geno. Base roster was seemingly his chance given the many fan favorite choices and it didn't happen..

Unrelated question, you know where a guy can find a good noose?

 

[Nethermoosen]

I think its pretty safe to give up hope on Geno. Base roster was seemingly his chance given the many fan favorite choices and it didn't happen.

In fact, despite multiple attempts from Sakurai it still hasn't happened. Geno still isn't in Smash. Why?

Because Square Enix seems to refuse to let Geno be a playable character over their over more popular and relevant characters, and will only make minor concessions (Mii Costume, Spirit, etc.) to appease his fans.

It’s always safe to give up hope. It’s a downright popular choice. Has the least drawbacks and the greatest of rewards(pleasant surprise).

 

[Zinith]

I thought Kirby was bottom tier for three games straight.

Top Tier in 64 (2/12)
Bottom Tier in Melee (26/26)
Mid Tier in Brawl (20/38)
Bottom Tier in 4 (50/55)

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Unrelated question, you know where a guy can find a good noose?

Noi, no!

 

[Shroob]

Honestly, I feel like if Square was more of a Capcom or.......I hate even saying this.....KONAMI level when it comes to Smash, they'd be willing to "Gib Geno"


But they're just, not. They want to turn as much profit as physically possible, and Geno isn't printing as many $$$$$$ as other choices, sadly.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Also, I noticed Sheik got a new victory theme. I can’t really pin point what it is though through the yelling of the announcers. Anybody got an idea what it is? Serenade of Water or something?

 

[Cheryl~]

I thought Kirby was bottom tier for three games straight.

Kirby’s actually considered mid-tier in Brawl, he’s only been especially bad in Melee and Smash 4. His Ultimate incarnation is looking to be better than 4 at least, I’m keeping myself hopeful!

 

[staindgrey]

I thought Kirby was bottom tier for three games straight.

I thought he was mid-tier in Brawl?

I mean, we collectively forget the Brawl tier list outside of Metaknight at the top, Link at the bottom, but I'm pretty sure Kirby was mid-range.

I mean, I know that doesn't mean much for Kirby fans.

 

[alemerltoucanet]

It seems decently likely that the Belmont’s will be high tier. Like, watching the gameplay and seeing people throw out cross to cover horizontal recovery, then axe to cover low recovery, and then Holy Water to cover the ledge all while being able to go after them off stage in between is crazy. The ONLY bad thing they have going for them is their recovery and close up combat. I’m close up combat though their jab and down smash does some work in making some space. And their recovery is also boosted by the fact they have a tether as well.

The Belmont’s are going to be ****ing whack in this game, guys.

And it's exciting. I'm really looking forward to them.

(Not as much as Inkling and Chrom, but I'm for sure gonna try them out quite a bit)