Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[P1ZZ4CHU]

Honestly, the thing is, it's really only an issue here in the states. I showed it to several of my Asian and European friends and the reference was completely lost on them.


It'll really come down to how much of a stink this causes here stateside.

It's a bit of an odd thing.

I have native heritage, and it's one of those things where it's old and backwards enough that yeah it's not a good look but you have to put it into perspective. I think my take is that there's bigger things to worry about on the political radar than two frames of animation from a game probably 0.1% of the people who are bringing it up on Twitter have played. Without getting into specifics because now is not the time or the place, I would focus your energy elsewhere if you're concerned about Native American lives in the US, because it's sorely needed.

 

[Will]

If they patch it out, the reference would be lost. If they don't, then a lot of people would probably get upset over it.

Pick your poison.

Eh, you could do the Game & Watch Gallery change if you wanted, kinda forgot they actually censored some remakes. Also, I doubt "a lot of people" would be offended enough to refrain from buying the game.

 

[JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL]

Okay, a bit of an confession: Never played a game and watch outside of one of the mario gba ones.

 

[Robertman2]

Or maybe you and others from ResetEra can learn to grow thicker skin.

No, grow the **** up and stop being a 4chan edgelord.

I mean, I get where you're coming from but, should we burn every old Western movie about cowboys and Indians while we're at it.

I'm not saying the past is nice looking, but to just turn a blind eye to "This never happened" is equally just as bad.

Nah, leave those be. This is a different case, since this is a 2018 game, not a 1964 movie.

 

[Nekoo]

What? How?

They were talking about the fate of the "grinch leak character", Shadow and Isaac being an AT, Geno being a spirit, someone even asked "Wait Geno is a spirit?" and they confirmed laughing that he is a spirit, and that only Banjo and Mach-Riders weren't shown and are safe from the onslaught

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I keep forgetting about SNK lol

But i def think its a company that will get a smash rep at some point

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

Okay, a bit of an confession: Never played a game and watch outside of one of the mario gba ones.

You're not missing a whole lot.

It's caveman technology. Fun for a minute if you're in the 80's on a long car trip but they're strictly a novelty anymore.

 

[Malkior7]

I hope that DLC won't be limited to just the Five fighter packs because I'd like to see Smash Run brought back with the Spirit system implemented into it. (where you boost characters with the spirits)

 

[PeridotGX]

Ok, here's a fun slightly depressing game we can play:

Imagine (for many of us, this is a reality) that your favorite(s) are Spirits. How do their battles play out?
Who is the playable character standing in for them?
What costume?
What stage?
What modifiers?

Spoiler: Not too hard to imagine what my most wanted would look like with the red eyes...it is directly from his DLC art.

Versus: , default costume
Stage: Summit
Rules: Simon has high knockback on attacks. Assist Trophies are the only items and spawn infrequently containing only Rathalos

For Tails:

Versus: (orange costume) or (Gunner, 2222, Tails costume)
Stage: Windy Hill Zone
Rules: Character favors aerial attacks. Character has lower gravity and powered-up aerials. Character also has a permanent super leaf.

For Urbosa:

Versus: (Purple/Cyan dress)
Stage: Gerudo Valley
Rules: Paly favors her counter. Lightning (like Pika's dSpecial) strikes the battlefield randomly. Koume/Kotake do not appear.

Grovyle
Posesses: in a green alt.

Stage: Spear Pillar

Bonuses: Timers spawn very frequently, only Dialga spawns as the hazard.

Maxwell

Posseses: (default)

Stage: New Donk City Hall

Bonuses: Items spawn very frequently, Villager randomly gets Monado Arts.

Marx

Posesses: (Purple alt)

Stage: Fountian of Dreams

Bonuses: Favors attacks that use kicks, can throw Black Holes infinitely.

Fawful

Posesses:

Stage: Paper Mario

Attributes: Stamina Battle, defended by a large pink Bowser, taunts often.

 

[SuperSceptile15]

It's a bit of an odd thing.

I have native heritage, and it's one of those things where it's old and backwards enough that yeah it's not a good look but you have to put it into perspective. I think the general consensus is that there's bigger things to worry about on the political radar than two frames of animation from a game probably 0.1% of the people who are bringing it up on Twitter have played. Without getting into specifics because now is not the time or the place, I would focus your energy elsewhere if you're concerned about Native American lives in the US, because it's sorely needed.

They don't actually want to make an effort to improve Native American lives, so they blame a video game for racism because it's easier. Shouldn't they be turning their attention towards the pipeline in North Dakota?

 

[CannonStreak]

Hey guys, what non-video game music would you think each of the Smashers would listen to on their device or anywhere? To me, for Piranha Plant...

Spoiler: Warning: Cursing Included

For Sonic...

Spoiler

 

[Mr. Z and 27 others]

If they patch it out, the reference would be lost. If they don't, then a lot of people would probably get upset over it.

Pick your poison.

I think "a lot" is an exaggeration. It's always a vocal minority, and almost always people who aren't even consumers of the product in the first place (look at GTA in Australia, or Clone High on MTV).

ResetEra was already complaining that smash doesn't have enough people of color, this is just something they can better latch onto. Caving into these people is always a mistake - it's not like that will be the make-or-break for buying it for more than literally 5 people.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

What's wrong?

Heh, I think I just got blocked by someone on this site for my remarks about Rottytops.
Whoops.

Okay, a bit of an confession: Never played a game and watch outside of one of the mario gba ones.

I've only played the Zelda one...

 

[JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL]

They were talking about the fate of the "grinch leak character", Shadow and Isaac being an AT, Geno being a spirit, someone even asked "Wait Geno is a spirit?" and they confirmed laughing that he is a spirit, and that only Banjo and Mach-Riders weren't shown and are safe from the onslaught

But...geno ISN'T a spirit. He's only an icon IN spirit mode, but he isn't a spirit.

 

[JCDied4U]

Hate to burst your bubble but Germany actually censors that stuff. It's the same scenario here but the Native Americans are in the Nazi's place because historically we were more ***** to them than the times they were to us.

Look dude I grew up in Germany and I never saw them censor that but maybe times have changed. What I'm asking is why is it offensive? It's just a dumb game right? The "Indian chefs" are just a cultural trope of the time and don't even reflect any real tribes right?

 

[Zinith]

*sigh* I didn't want to get into this...

The problem with the "pro-censorship" crowd is that the justifications for such actions ALWAYS, 100% ignores context...

Recall that Robert Downey Jr. played a character in blackface 10 years ago in Tropic Thunder:

And not only was it fine, he was nominated for an Oscar for that role!!! The reason being that the context was NOT to demean Black Americans. It was part of a joke that made fun of overzealous Hollywood actors who would do anything to win accolades.

In regards to Mr. Game & Watch, the context is to reference one of his movesets to an old G&W title. NOT to demean Natives...

 

[Will]

No, I did that a long time ago.

Stop punching yourself every goddamn second, it's getting uncomfortable.

 

[Nekoo]

But...geno ISN'T a spirit. He's only an icon IN spirit mode, but he isn't a spirit.

Hey, that's what they said, they seems to be sure that he's a spirit- not my word

 

[Raxxel]

I mean, the fact that Nintendo actually thought it was insensitive enough for them to censor it in the Game & Watch Gallery says a lot. The reference isn't gone if they censor it, it will just no longer reference a stereotype that clearly makes a rather large group of people uncomfortable, in a game that is meant to be enjoyed by all audiences.

 

[JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL]

Heh, I think I just got blocked by someone on this site for my remarks about Rottytops.
Whoops.

I've only played the Zelda one...

There was a Zelda one?

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

They don't actually want to make an effort to make Native American lives better, so they blame a video game for racism because it's easier. Shouldn't they be turning their attention towards the pipeline in North Dakota?

It's more complicated than that. There's a general lack of awareness of Native American issues because it's not given much spotlight. A lot of people mean well but when you're out of the loop and try to help there's only so much you can do.

But that's the last I'm going to go into this because this is for Smash, not politics.

 

[Mellowy Yellow]

But...geno ISN'T a spirit. He's only an icon IN spirit mode, but he isn't a spirit.

I mean, did you really expect anything else from these guys?

 

[Will]

Look dude I grew up in Germany and I never saw them censor that but maybe times have changed. What I'm asking is why is it offensive? It's just a dumb game right? The "Indian chefs" are just a cultural trope of the time and don't even reflect any real tribes right?

At the time, that's what it was. In this time, it's politically incorrect. Things change, that's how it is now. We can't change that, I'm afraid.

 

[PsySmasher]

They were talking about the fate of the "grinch leak character", Shadow and Isaac being an AT, Geno being a spirit, someone even asked "Wait Geno is a spirit?" and they confirmed laughing that he is a spirit, and that only Banjo and Mach-Riders weren't shown and are safe from the onslaught

Oh boy...

If they are correct and spirits are deconfirmations (which we don't know yet), that pretty much leaves Sora.

Unless we get some sort of less likely 3rd party SE rep, like Agnes or a DQ rep.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

I've been at work for thirteen hours, can someone fill me in on anything important? I'm seeing Resetera pop up, so let's just ignore that one.

 

[JacobLeBeauOFFICIAL]

Hey, that's what they said, they seems to be sure that he's a spirit- not my word

They seem to be a bit confused...and egotistical.

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 175484


If it gets too bad, they can just change it like they did in the Game and Watch Gallery remake.



But I'm also not super touchy-feely about this kind of stuff to begin with.

Didn't some people get mad at Mario wearing a Sombrero and Mexican clothing back during Super Mario Odyssey? And look what happened. I don't think it'll be changed for this case.

 

[Dyllybirdy]

Stop punching yourself every goddamn second, it's getting uncomfortable.

I was saying that in jest.

Sorry.

 

[theromfather]

I was here this morning and people were discussing diversity in video games and 8 hours later I'm back and now people are talking about my boy game and watch being racist? Hwat??

 

[Mc.Rad]

They probably won't change it to a minor removal, otherwise the reference is lost. Best thing to do would be to just revert G&W back to just himself.

Actually, changing it would actually be a reference in itself since they did so back in the GBA version lol

 

[Idon]

Eh, my stance on censorship is that it's pretty unnecessary.

We're all intelligent adults that can understand that this is a direct product from a different place and time with a different culture and we don't need to be patronized to match our sensibilities more. And if you're not an adult, I hardly think you would care to begin with.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Seems every Smash has a unique thing or two now

64: Board the platforms
Melee: Crossover platformer levels (outside of Halberd)
Brawl: Tripping, Movie length story mode
3DS: Smash Run
WiiU: A terrifying relic from the era when Nintendo forgot how to make party games
Switch: Spirits

 

[Will]

Actually, changing it would actually be a reference in itself since they did so back in the GBA version lol

Actually, I 'd myself before you got the chance to post that.

 

[JCDied4U]

At the time, that's what it was. In this time, it's politically incorrect. Things change, that's how it is now. We can't change that, I'm afraid.

But what does politically incorrect even mean? What is ACTUALLY WRONG with the move? If he were smiling would it be ok? If he were a cowboy would it be ok? I'm genuinely curious as to why it's offensive because anything can be labeled offensive if you really wanted to

 

[Dyllybirdy]

There was a Zelda one?

Yeah!

Spoiler

And there was a Zelda "Game Watch", too.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

By "savage Indian chefs" I assume they mean Native American chiefs. After enough typos and using the word Indian like it's 1850 (from context clues I gather they don't mean actual Indians), honestly, it's not always obvious what they're even talking about, but I'm going to assume it's what they meant. I think it's important to realize that G&W games didn't really have stories. Who can say they were all chiefs and not just normal warriors? Surely we're all culturally sensitive to know that's not really the same thing and it wouldn't actually make sense for a group of chiefs to comprise an entire attacking force. Who can say they were savage and not just attacking the fort as a normal act of warfare? I seriously doubt whichever G&W game this was had any commentary on the mentality or motivations of the attackers. I mean, Native Americans did have a variety of wars with the United States throughout history, and while I'm not personally aware of any fort burnings, it's a pretty plausible and ordinary action in such a conflict. What's offensive about that? It's not even a negative depiction; I think we'd be happy at the inclusion of more cultural diversity? Someone help me understand what's actually offensive here; I don't get it.

 

[Deleted member]

Well then. Seems like Spawn's changing his stance a bit from a VGAs reveal to an E3 reveal for DLC, to let the game breathe for 6 months.
Huh.

EDIT: NateDrake mentioned this, not Spawn. Misunderstood that. Apologies.

 

[Will]

But what does politically incorrect even mean? What is ACTUALLY WRONG with the move? If he were smiling would it be ok? If he were a cowboy would it be ok? I'm genuinely curious as to why it's offensive because anything can be labeled offensive if you really wanted to

It's not the move itself, it's the context behind it. Alone it means nothing. With the source material, it's suddenly a problem, which I personally disagree with. But it does seem to be a vocal minority at the moment, so it may actually influence Nintendo's hand.

Well then. Seems like Spawn's changing his stance a bit from a VGAs reveal to an E3 reveal for DLC, to let the game breathe for 6 months.
Huh.

YOUR LEAKER'S SLIPPING
MAYMAYDAY MAN DOWN WE'RE LOSING ALTITUDE

 

[Idon]

At the very least don't do something stupid like make them a cowboy, lmao.

YOU TRADED ONE RACIAL STEREOTYPE WITH ANOTHER.

Bravely Second's probably the thing that got hit hardest with the localization stick.

 

[KMDP]

I don't quite get what's wrong with it? Some Native Americans were pretty terrible so it shouldn't be a big deal if they have an homage to some dumb old game. What's next? Portraying Germans as Nazi's in WWII games won't be allowed? Oh wait they already banned the swastika in the new battlefield so Idk anymore

Germany has banned the Swastika in general.

That being said, getting mad about "Cultural Appropriation" is silly if you aren't actually a member of that culture yourself.

Remember when that girl got flamed for wearing a Qipao to her prom, and there was a big hullabaloo about it? When actual Chinese people were asked about it, none of them seemed to care, the general response being "Oh, that's cute. It's a nice dress."