Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Morbi]

I think the comparison is pretty clear, being a fighting game involving jumping and fast movement. That applies to both Smash and Pokken. I never said he looked slow or couldn't move well in Pokken, all I said was that he looked awkward doing those movements.

In that case, we can agree to disagree. I do not believe a 3D fighter is indicative of a 2D fighter and that is more or less why Heihachi was not working. Do not get me wrong, Blastoise IS awkward if he is not just standing there or spinning in his shell.

If there was a "dislike" button, this is where I'd use it.

Sorry, he represents all of the developers, and Nintendo as a whole, best not to let fans get under your skin just because they are acting entitled.

 

[Deleted member]

I am unsure about Doom Guy's problem in general. I get really confused how people say it's too late for Doom Guy to get in when people say a Skyrim character is a bigger possibility. I would like to think that Bethesda did plan both a port for both Skyrim AND Doom for the Switch back in early 2016 when Nintendo or Bethesda themselves possibly pitched the idea of these games getting in the game for Sakurai to consider the possibilities of characters from both franchises. I would like further clarification on the matter.

It makes no sense for them to pitch a Switch release for a game to Sakurai that would have yet to come out on other systems solely to work in a character for Smash.

And while Skyrim has been around longer, I don't think Dragonborn is likely to be included either based on timing.

And I honestly doubt Bethesda of all companies would be pushing the idea for Smash in the first place.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around clones being so disliked.

Quality over quantity? See, that'd work if we were talking about Melee, where we got nearly 1/5 of the roster being clones. In Smash 4 though, only three of 58 characters are clones. That's almost 1/20. If we look at it from that standpoint, I'd say that's a good balance of quality and quantity to me.

The clones deserve more than being, yknow, clones? No, they don't. Really the only one who I'd say "deserves" to be more diversified is Dark Pit, and even then he just needs different stat changes to make him more different from Pit. Only other clone we had that I think "deserved" it was Roy, and he's already been made into a semi-clone. Dr. Mario, Pichu, and Young Link are literally the same character as Mario, Pikachu, and Link (ignoring timeline of course) respectively, and then we have Lucina, where one of the major plot points in Fire Emblem Awakening was her disguising herself as Marth. Being clones 100% fits with their character.

They bloat the roster? Yes they do. What's the issue? All it boils down to is more characters for you to play as. Which, by no means, is a bad thing. In all honesty I just find "bloating" in the context of clones a very pessimistic way of looking at things.

They take away roster slots from unique, more deserving characters? This has been explained so many times I'm surprised this is even an argument people use anymore.

I'm gonna ask an honest question here: when people look at the rosters in Smash games, do they expect every little thing to be perfect, or are things like clones just THAT offensive to them that it undermines anything else the roster, or the game for that matter, has to offer?

 

[?????????????]

Sorry, he represents all of the developers, and Nintendo as a whole, best not to let fans get under your skin just because they are acting entitled.

First off...

I'm pretty sure he was specifically asked about this topic for an interview.

Secondly, I think he handled the question well. He answered truthfully in a way where he implied that some people simply may not be able to understand the choices he made, and he did it without calling any fans "idiots" or some other insult.

Lastly, I think everyone should have the opportunity to express their feelings freely at some point, ESPECIALLY the person who, like...actually made the product.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Beyond that, he heavily hinted at the Charizard cut via his multiplicative comment, or Dr. Mario (and further evidence for Dark Pit) with his criteria for clones which was blatantly written out. And just analyzing his general rules, you could have easily predicted Robin over Chrom, or Toon Link's return. People were against patterns, but they all more or less carried over regardless. The fact of the matter is if you actually listen to him, it makes a lot of his choices very obvious. He is not necessarily attempting to mask characters. He is literally just relaying information about the development to us. So many people believe he is a troll or some mastermind. It is genuinely baffling.

He has a lot of "wow" or "wtf" moments. But the vast majority of the roster is easily discernible and I believe a lot of people are overthinking it this time around. Speculation has only gotten easier and easier with time.

I just wanted to have hope for King K.Rool, Isaac and Impa. I ignored what I didn't like :D

Won't do the same this time. I'll keep it factual.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

How do you think they'll organize the character select screen this time?
In 64 the unlockables were put at the sides,
in Melee the clones were put next to their model, and it was organized by franchise,
In Brawl, by game series vertically,
in For, depending on when the game first appeared.

I take the bet that they'll organize it depending on the game the character first appeared in the Smash Bros. Series. And an exception for third parties.

Something like that (don't judge the characters, just an example) :

Do you guys think it'll keep the same model as in For, or Sakurai will find a new way?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

How do you think they'll organize the character select screen this time?
In 64 the unlockables were put at the sides,
in Melee the clones were put next to their model, and it was organized by franchise,
In Brawl, by game series vertically,
in For, depending on when the game first appeared.

I take the bet that they'll organize it depending on the game the character first appeared in the Smash Bros. Series. And an exception for third parties.

Something like that (don't judge the characters, just an example) :

Do you guys think it'll keep the same model as in For, or Sakurai will find a new way?

I genuinely hope they keep it organized by franchise, because that roster is tough to look at...

 

[Morbi]

First off...

I'm pretty sure he was specifically asked about this topic for an interview.

Secondly, I think he handled the question well. He answered truthfully in a way where he implied that some people simply may not be able to understand the choices he made, and he did it without calling any fans "idiots" or some other insult.

Lastly, I think everyone should have the opportunity to express their feelings freely at some point, ESPECIALLY the person who, like...actually made the product.

That makes no difference, you can still phrase your answer in such a way that does not contradict your job.

Sure, he handled it well enough. That was not what I was responding to, however. The other gentlemen was implying that he should have been less nice. Which is absurd. Beyond that, he called them children which is literally used as an extension of "stupid" as you are implying they are not competent enough to be adults. That is absolutely insulting.

I would not do it in an interview. But I am not a child.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

How do you think they'll organize the character select screen this time?
In 64 the unlockables were put at the sides,
in Melee the clones were put next to their model, and it was organized by franchise,
In Brawl, by game series vertically,
in For, depending on when the game first appeared.

I take the bet that they'll organize it depending on the game the character first appeared in the Smash Bros. Series. And an exception for third parties.

Something like that (don't judge the characters, just an example) :

Do you guys think it'll keep the same model as in For, or Sakurai will find a new way?

I understand what you were aiming for when predicting how the roster selection screen would look like, but honestly it just looks super-messy imo

 

[Staarih]

If Pokemon Trainer were to return, would you want to see new Pokemon or Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard? What if Pokemon Trainer was a Gen 7 Pokemon character using Popplio, Torracat, and Decidueye?

Personally, I'd take the original Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard again. It was a trio that worked (bar the stamina mechanic lol). And I feel like it wouldn't really be a "return" of PKMN Trainer if the Pokémon were different (especially since Charizard is still in the game today) - cuts never bode well with this fandom.

Though, I guess any starter trio could work, and nothing against the Gen 7 ones (I ain't no "genwunner"), but I guess there's still just something iconic about Red + Kanto-starters, who capture the essence of a trainer + his/her Pokémon perfectly.

 

[SlickWylde]

I'm having a difficult time wrapping my head around clones being so disliked.

This is why, for a lot of fans:
Even if they "Don't take up that much time" they still take up some time. Some people don't believe Sakurai when he says that they are "dessert" and think that they're not needed and just take away from the rest of the game. "Why make Lucina, who looks an awful lot like Marth with long hair and have his moveset?" Sakurai says there were reasons why he didn't just have her as a skin, but a lot of people think "Okay... but it would've been fine if she was just a skin. What about her is so unique that she needed to be a character? If she's unique, she should have unique moves". And it's a similar mentality for most clones.
*Not stating my person opinion, just the opinion of others*. I find clones to be pretty boring most of the time, but I don't really care, as long as it doesn't stop new creative characters from joining.

 

[Diddy Kong]

EXACTLY! I just wanted to play as Charizard, but I couldn't (effectively), cause that stamina would make it bad over time!

Don't worry!

Charizard is still bad in Smash 4 :3

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Maybe they could add filter options to reorganize the roster, such as a "Play Time" filter, or "Most Wins" filter. Included in there could be a filter that organizes by which Smash game they entered by, but I find that whole filter concept doubtful.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Maybe they could add filter options to reorganize the roster, such as a "Play Time" filter, or "Most Wins" filter. Included in there could be a filter that organizes by which Smash game they entered by, but I find that whole filter concept doubtful.

That would be cool. Characters being reorganized depending on how many matchs you played with them, so you can pick them up if you find yourself not playing that character a lot. There wouldn't be a precise number shown, but it could help. Or even just lighten up the character's slot so you know if you completed, say, Classic mode with him or not, so you can easily choose him.

 

[Morbi]

Maybe they could add filter options to reorganize the roster, such as a "Play Time" filter, or "Most Wins" filter. Included in there could be a filter that organizes by which Smash game they entered by, but I find that whole filter concept doubtful.

Or if you could just organize it yourself, that would be dope. I do, personally, find it to be quite intuitive in Smash 4, minus the clones and Mii Fighters (which I never pick anyway, so that worked out regardless). That being said, first, they would need to allow you to save your damn settings (outside of just items or stages) in the game instead of always defaulting to time matches.

 

[?????????????]

It honestly always bugged me in 4 that they never put Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina in their respective franchises on the select screen

 

[Deleted member]

Beyond that, he called them children which is literally used as an extension of "stupid" as you are implying they are not competent enough to be adults. That is absolutely insulting.

I would not do it in an interview. But I am not a child.

...pretty sure he was literally talking about children.

Unless you're referring to not what Sakurai actually said. I'm confused....

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

It honestly always bugged me in 4 that they never put Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina in their respective franchises on the select screen

Agree, and Yoshi, my buddah, who was in the middle of the Mario characters despite having another symbol.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

It honestly always bugged me in 4 that they never put Doc, Dark Pit, and Lucina in their respective franchises on the select screen

Not gonna say you're wrong for having that opinion, but I thought it was pretty neat considering they shared similarities. It was like a little clone club

 

[splat]

If Pokemon Trainer were to return, would you want to see new Pokemon or Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard? What if Pokemon Trainer was a Gen 7 Pokemon character using Popplio, Torracat, and Decidueye?

That's a funny way to say Rowlet, Torracat and Primarina.
Rowlet is the most popular USUM Pokémon in Japan, while Primarina is number 3. Neither Decidueye or Popplio appear in the top 14. (Not does Torracat, but with those other two being ranked so high there isn't much choice.)

 

[Nu~]

This is why, for a lot of fans:
Even if they "Don't take up that much time" they still take up some time. Some people don't believe Sakurai when he says that they are "dessert" and think that they're not needed and just take away from the rest of the game. "Why make Lucina, who looks an awful lot like Marth with long hair and have his moveset?" Sakurai says there were reasons why he didn't just have her as a skin, but a lot of people think "Okay... but it would've been fine if she was just a skin. What about her is so unique that she needed to be a character? If she's unique, she should have unique moves". And it's a similar mentality for most clones.
*Not stating my person opinion, just the opinion of others*. I find clones to be pretty boring most of the time, but I don't really care, as long as it doesn't stop new creative characters from joining.

There’s also the argument that clones sometimes can do a disservice to fans of the character that was turned into a clone.

Like Lucina fans, Dark Pit fans (yes, they exist lol), and Ganondorf fans who’ve had to sit through 3 iterations of him being a falcon clone instead of the utter badassery that he is in the LoZ series.

TheLastJinjo
Call it “irrational” if you want but I see where they’re coming from. You keep simplifying the anti-clone stance to, “Wahhhhh, I don’t want free stuff just because :,[[[[“

I know damn well that if Pac-Man was somehow turned into a jigglypuff clone in smash 5, I’d be more than a little upset.

 

[Morbi]

...pretty sure he was literally talking about children.

Unless you're referring to not what Sakurai actually said. I'm confused....

That implies that only children misunderstand the problem which is objectively not the case. He was referring to people who have problems with clones, which again, I am not one of them. I am just recognizing that the quote was in poor taste.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

That's a funny way to say Rowlet, Torracat and Primarina.
Rowlet is the most popular USUM Pokémon in Japan, while Primarina is number 3. Neither Decidueye or Popplio appear in the top 14. (Not does Torracat, but with those other two being ranked so high there isn't much choice.)

I'm surprised, I didn't know that Primarina was so loved over there! I knew for the other two, but this one surprises me.
Though my favorite of this gen was the cat dude.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

That's a funny way to say Rowlet, Torracat and Primarina.
Rowlet is the most popular USUM Pokémon in Japan, while Primarina is number 3. Neither Decidueye or Popplio appear in the top 14. (Not does Torracat, but with those other two being ranked so high there isn't much choice.)

I mean it's not like I did any research for that statement, it was just food for thought

 

[BluePikmin11]

It makes no sense for them to pitch a Switch release for a game to Sakurai that would have yet to come out on other systems solely to work in a character for Smash.

And while Skyrim has been around longer, I don't think Dragonborn is likely to be included either based on timing.

And I honestly doubt Bethesda of all companies would be pushing the idea for Smash in the first place.

Would not moveset potential naturally be a factor for character consideration too or is that irrelevant?

I suppose when it comes down to it, Bethesda would focus more on helping Nintendo with support with Switch ports than suggesting to Sakurai for a Skyrim or DOOM character. So you have a point.

Do you think all of the new third party ports that open the gates for characters like Crash, Sans, etc. would be not considered for the base game because of timing of roster planning potentially in early 2016? Would they have the best chance as DLC, if it happens?

 

[Onua]

T-Rex is legit too big for Sma5h.

Instead of "Fossil Fighter", we're likely to get "Jura", the Fossil Fighter of the latest game. Or his companion Nibbles.

Yeah I think Tria and Jura who are going to get in as the designs for FF(theyre who I mean as FF)

 

[A Distant Demon]

There’s also the argument that clones sometimes can do a disservice to fans of the character that was turned into a clone.

Like Lucina fans, Dark Pit fans (yes, they exist lol), and Ganondorf fans who’ve had to sit through 3 iterations of him being a falcon clone instead of the utter badassery that he is Ike the LoZ series.

TheLastJinjo
Call it “irrational” if you want but I see where they’re coming from. You keep simplifying the anti-clone stance to, “Wahhhhh, I don’t want free stuff because :,[[[[“

I know damn well that if Pac-Man was somehow turned into a jigglypuff clone in smash 5, I’d be more than a little upset.

Lucina fan and a Dark Pit fan.

They wouldnt have gotten in otherwise. Im ****ing ecstatic that they got in as clones. I can at least see something in ganondorf, but that has more to do with Sakurai being weird than actually being a clone

 

[Nu~]

Lucina fan and a Dark Pit fan.

They wouldnt have gotten in otherwise. Im ****ing ecstatic that they got in as clones. I can at least see something in ganondorf, but that has more to do with Sakurai being weird than actually being a clone

Ah, I get that too.

I still wish that Dark Pit used his goddamn staff tho :,^[

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Do you think all of the new third party ports that open the gates for characters like Crash, Sans, etc. would be not considered because of timing of roster planning potentially in early 2016? Would they have the best chance as DLC, if it happens?

I do not predict the future, but if Smash For, on a failed console that is the Wii U, got many 3RD party characters as DLCs, I believe it's an open door for independant characters for the Switch which is popular.
I don't know how negociations work over there, but having your character in Smash for a small indie. developer is always a plus, and you also get money as a bonus.
But before DLC, let's wait for the base roster. We don't even know for sure if it's an enhanced port or a fully new game, or anything.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Call it “irrational” if you want but I see where they’re coming from. You keep simplifying the anti-clone stance to, “Wahhhhh, I don’t want free stuff just because :,[[[[“

I know damn well that if Pac-Man was somehow turned into a jigglypuff clone in smash 5, I’d be more than a little upset.

PAC-MAN is a veteran with an already-established moveset.

Not a good counterargument in the slightest

 

[Morbi]

Would not moveset potential naturally be a factor for character consideration too or is that irrelevant?

I suppose when it comes down to it, Bethesda would focus more on helping Nintendo with support with Switch ports than suggesting to Sakurai for a Skyrim or DOOM character. So you have a point.

Do you think all of the new third party ports that open the gates for characters like Crash, Sans, etc. would be not considered for the base game because of timing of roster planning potentially in early 2016? Would they have the best chance as DLC, if it happens?

Activision already met with Nintendo for their Skylanders nonsense, so the timing of a Smash character could have been much earlier than literally right after they decided to bring Crash to the Switch. As for Undertale, I am sure that was more recent, especially because we do not even have a date, correct?

PAC-MAN is a veteran with an already-established moveset.

Not a good counterargument in the slightest

I believe their point was that they could empathize because they enjoy Pac-Man and if he ended up being a clone for no apparent reason outside of "lol not enuff tim" he would be disappointed. It did not seem like a counter argument in the slightest.

 

[PF9]

If Duck Hunt is retained, adding Meowth as playable would give us a dog (Duck Hunt), a cat (Meowth), and a mouse (Pikachu)

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Not sure if it was a 3DS limitation either. I was under the impression it was at least somewhat related, though.

Anyways, the idea of transforming characters returning makes me vomit lol. The only exception I have for that would be Pokemon Trainer because it's such a prominent factor in Pokemon games, so it at least makes sense for them. But as much as I would like for Pokemon Trainer to return, I'd rather he didn't if it meant Sheik/ZSS don't become victims of the mechanic.

With custom moves it's kind of an impossibility. It would be incredibly inconvenient. I think people are more accustomed to everyone being treated as their own character. That way, every character counts and there aren't any misconceptions about the size of the roster and characters can be recorded accurately.

 

[Troykv]

I think the only that got shafted was Ganondorf (a bit ironic, because he was chose late in Melee's Development because of how popular he had become, but Sakurai maybe wasn't expecting he being a main stay like Zelda).

The rest of the clone and semi clone characters have perfectly decent reasons to be cloney, in some cases characters like Dark Pit and Roy could only be possible thanks to this.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

T
TheLastJinjo
Call it “irrational” if you want but I see where they’re coming from. You keep simplifying the anti-clone stance to, “Wahhhhh, I don’t want free stuff just because :,[[[[“

I know damn well that if Pac-Man was somehow turned into a jigglypuff clone in smash 5, I’d be more than a little upset.

That doesn't make any sense. First of all, it's ironic because Jigglypuff is actually a clone of Kirby. Second of all, it's not equivalent. Dark Pit is a clone of Pit because that's how he is in the actual games. Just like Luigi shares similarities to Mario. Pac-Man shares zero similarities to Jigglypuff beyond the shape of part of his body.

So no, I'm not simplifying it. When people say they want clones to be cut or made into costumes, then they really are saying “Wahhhhh, I don’t want free stuff just because :,[[[[“, because they don't have any reasons besides "Clones are bad because they are clones."

Clones aren't lazy, so that's not an excuse.They don't do disservice to characters because it's an accurate representation of them, so that's not an excuse either. So when you get down to it, they really do just hate clones for no reason. At least for no reason that's justified or validated. It's all about a childish misconception that clones are added because the director is too lazy to make them different. Which is false.

I'm done explaining this.

 

[Morbi]

I think the only that got shafted was Ganondorf (a bit ironic, because he was chose late in Melee's Development because of how popular he had become, but Sakurai maybe wasn't expecting he being a main stay like Zelda).

The rest of the clone and semi clone characters have perfectly decent reasons to be cloney, in some cases characters like Dark Pit and Roy could only be possible thanks to this.

I would argue that the transition from Young Link to Toon Link merited at least some consideration to give him his own personality. With Link himself, you could easily make half a dozen viable move-sets. But yeah, the only character that was truly shafted is Ganon. He could not even be a clone from his own series, as literally every other clone was unless you count Jigglypuff as a clone for whatever sick reason.

 

[SlickWylde]

PAC-MAN is a veteran with an already-established moveset.

Not a good counterargument in the slightest

What? He's saying if Pacman were introduced in Sm4sh as a clone, not the next game. The argument about "already established moveset", if you're talking about their original games, can be made for most characters.

 

[Yoshi-Thomas]

Did we reach this point again where there is so little to talk about that we have to argue about clones for the nth time?

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

That doesn't make any sense. First of all, it's ironic because Jigglypuff is actually a clone of Kirby. Second of all, it's not equivalent. Dark Pit is a clone of Pit because that's how he is in the actual games. Just like Luigi shares similarities to Mario. Pac-Man shares zero similarities to Jigglypuff beyond the shape of part of his body.

So no, I'm not simplifying it. When people say they want clones to be cut or made into costumes, then they really are saying “Wahhhhh, I don’t want free stuff just because :,[[[[“, because they don't have any reasons besides "Clones are bad because they are clones."

Clones aren't lazy, so that's not an excuse.They don't do disservice to characters because it's an accurate representation of them, so that's not an excuse either. So when you get down to it, they really do just hate clones for no reason. At least for no reason that's justified or validated. It's all about a childish misconception that clones are added because the director is too lazy to make them different. Which is false.

I'm done explaining this.

You sir have explained this perfectly. This post was ****ing beautiful

 

[Morbi]

Did we reach this point again where there is so little to talk about that we have to argue about clones for the nth time?

I never really expected there to be tons to talk about when they refused to even show Mario's face. Ha ha.