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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Morbi

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For several reasons, I find having an Undertale character playable in Smash Bros. unlikely.

However, what I want to know is...would you enjoy having an Undertale character in Smash Bros.?

For me, the answer would be yes. I don't know if it would be the most, uh... "deserving," per se, but I really liked Undertale and it meets all the other "requirements" we've set it stone, and ultimately I think it'd be pretty fun.
Absolutely. Sans one of the few third-party characters I would be okay with. I too, find it quite unlikely, a lot of people are pretending Shovel Knight is unlikely for some reason. There definitely seems to be some sort of bias against indies despite that being all the rage during the ballot and SK's continued relevance. That being said, I do agree that they would not saturate the game with indies and therefore, unfortunately, Undertale is unlikely by extension.
 

Diddy Kong

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Didn't he complain once about how people tend to read too much into his posts and relate it all to Smash?

Then again, maybe he shouldn't have shared stuff like Shulk's Monado and a pic with Dark Pit and a number of Smash characters together and all... Not that that would have stopped the fans from overanalyzing his tweets but still.
Well, we DID get a separate Charizard AND Dark Pit in the end. Also Shulk.

This gives me MORE of a cynical eye to look into things farrrrr more deeply. Which I was already quite adapt at. :D

AM GONNA HAVE A JOLLY WONDERFUL TIME
 

Burruni

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Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

1) Zelda and Sheik are gonna stay separate, so is Charizard.
2) No Bandana Dee (or even Marx) but 2 AC newcomers. My guy, c'mon.
Those are the only big notables.
 
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Lyndis_

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For several reasons, I find having an Undertale character playable in Smash Bros. unlikely.

However, what I want to know is...would you enjoy having an Undertale character in Smash Bros.?

For me, the answer would be yes. I don't know if it would be the most, uh... "deserving," per se, but I really liked Undertale and it meets all the other "requirements" we've set it stone, and ultimately I think it'd be pretty fun.
Nope.

I'd love to have the music from Undertale or even a stage in Smash (it's one of my favorite games ever made, and I even know someone involved with the game. Also, anyone who tells you they don't like the music from Undertale is a dirty liar), but I can't think of any character that really fits in the game.

Sans himself is a bit of a spoiler and it doesn't fit them to be fighting anyone in Smash. You have to kill literally every other character in the game to even get him to fight you.

I could think of a few characters that make more sense, but I don't think anyone really has enough material to work with to be made into a worthy character over characters from just about anything else, lol.
 
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Diddy Kong

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Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

For your taste, this is quite conservative. I admire that.

Ohhh wait nvm Mr. Hanafunda (?) is still there! All good :awesome:

Dunno who the character between Rayman and Ryu is. That's already a big minus... It's likely it's not a too popular character who's too familiar with all the Smash fanbase. I'd cut the character.

Shovel Knight is reasonable to believe in.

YOU'D PUT BACK SHEIK WITH ZELDA!? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Cool, Dixie! She should've been there with Smash 4's roster... But always good to see her.

Two Animal Crossing newcomers tho? Nah, I'd personally lose Isabelle.

Overall, it's very reasonable.
 

Freduardo

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I don't even get this reasoning. Zelda, as herself and not any alter ego, never fought. How is BotW Zelda any different?
Not true. At least not in the sense of never.

There’s the CDI game where you play as her... but let’s not think about that. (she used a wand, but it acted like a rapier and did more or a stabby attack than a slash like Link had in 2D Zelda’s of the time).

Ocarina of time, but that’s an alter ego.

Twilight Princess she’s on riding with Link on Epona shooting the arrows of light. This one is Zelda as herself no alter ego fighting and canon.

And Hyrule Warriors she uses a rapier. And fights a lot. But not canon. Fun game though.

Plus She’s often part of the mages/maidens/sages seal evil beam move. So she can do a Care bear stare?
 
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Morbi

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Well, we DID get a separate Charizard AND Dark Pit in the end. Also Shulk.

This gives me MORE of a cynical eye to look into things farrrrr more deeply. Which I was already quite adapt at. :D

AM GONNA HAVE A JOLLY WONDERFUL TIME
Beyond that, he heavily hinted at the Charizard cut via his multiplicative comment, or Dr. Mario (and further evidence for Dark Pit) with his criteria for clones which was blatantly written out. And just analyzing his general rules, you could have easily predicted Robin over Chrom, or Toon Link's return. People were against patterns, but they all more or less carried over regardless. The fact of the matter is if you actually listen to him, it makes a lot of his choices very obvious. He is not necessarily attempting to mask characters. He is literally just relaying information about the development to us. So many people believe he is a troll or some mastermind. It is genuinely baffling.

He has a lot of "wow" or "wtf" moments. But the vast majority of the roster is easily discernible and I believe a lot of people are overthinking it this time around. Speculation has only gotten easier and easier with time.
 

BluePikmin11

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You'll find out more of my reasonings regarding Pokemon Trainer, Dixie, and Zelda/Sheik later when the former two get rated in the RTC thread.

(I also forgot to bundle samus/zss, woops.)

I suppose that you think it was a port at first that became a new game?
Yes. More specifically a port marketed as a new game.
 
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Superyoshiom

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For the love of...

Wii Fit Trainer specifically comes from Wii Fit. Their stage has nothing but Wii Fit stuff. Same with their trophies.

Miis are different and are honorary Smash characters.

They can't somehow fill the same niche.
My mom likes them both

Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

This seems pretty reasonable, save for the third parties, and none of them personally anger me like minecraft Steve does.
 
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AwesomeAussie27

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The winner of the last poll was Lyon, Sacred Stones' main villain. Both Joshua and Lute were fairly popular. Then there's Valter, left in the dust.

Next we will explore the first of Ike's games, Path of Radiance. Your choices are Black Knight, Titania, Ranulf, and Shinon.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Go!
 

Superyoshiom

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They didn't.


The specials are a bit under 1/5 of a character's moves when you consider tilts, aerials, smashes, and grabs. This does not include the additional work that comes from modeling walking/running/jumping/pummeling/swimming animations. Keep in mind that more than 80% of Wolf's moveset was completely unique, with only conceptual similarities to Fox and Falco.


Except the Koopalings are more similar to clones than they are to Wolf and Lucas. All of their animations and moves are lifted directly from another character and put onto a new model with the same skeleton. The difference is that the clones also have their moves slightly altered, like Lucina's hitboxes or Dr. Mario's pills.

A semi-clone is not, by any means, the same thing as a clone. It's not reasonable to say that the relationship between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf is the same as the relationship between Dark Pit and Pit. There are too many significant differences between the pairs.


You're thinking about this as if cutting one of the three clones would save as much development time as cutting one completely unique character, but that simply isn't true.

In Melee, Sakurai has stated that he didn't have enough time to include one more new character at the end of development, but he did have time for six clones. The implication is that a single completely unique character takes as much development time as more than six clones.

It's reasonable to say based on what we know that the time saved from cutting three clones wouldn't even be enough time to develop a single semi-clone, let alone a full character. Why bother when you could cut one character and save yourself more than double the time?
The problem is that Sakurai thinks adding in the clones makes people happier, when 95% of the people I talk to both here and in real life hate them and think their inclusion is nothing but paddng. I hate clones, but it kind of makes me sad that so many of my friends are not fans of Lucina and Dark Pit thanks to their clone status.
 
D

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Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

It's honestly hard to imagine that we wouldn't lose anyone (and I don't just mean things that would barely affect development like the 3 clones) while getting 13 new additions and 4 returning fighters from pre-Smash 4.
It just doesn't seem reasonable considering how development works.

Sheik getting re-tied to Zelda and Pokémon Trainer coming back to re-tie Charizard to his lineup while Zero Suit Samus remains her own character also seems rather iffy. Assuming that any of the separated characters would be put together again in the first place as that's questionable in itself, why would one of them remain separate if the other unit they were tied to is present while the others are grouped together again?

Two new characters for Animal Crossing is also a bit excessive. Not going to really get into how people over-estimate Isabelle's odds here, but I'm just going to leave it at this: Either Nook or Isabelle, not both at the same time. And honestly, despite how I feel Isabelle isn't so likely, she would be the one considered at this point over Nook.

Daitoryou is always going to be that iffy idea to me that doesn't seem realistic. I get that each game has it's "surprise" character, but the idea seems too far out there even for that. I think there would need to at least be someone to represent things like the Ultra Hand and Ultra Machine first before going to Hanafuda. Though interesting that you put him at the END of the single-character franchises to reference that the deck isn't a video game like what the other characters are from.

Three additional guests in addition to each one currently present in Smash 4 also seems a bit excessive. And since the roster was likely decided on in early 2016, it is unlikely that Doomguy/Doom Slayer would have been in consideration at the time.


Other than that, it's decent of a roster in itself. Just, as you said, too ambitious and hopeful to really be a serious "prediction".
 
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Morbi

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The problem is that Sakurai thinks adding in the clones makes people happier, when 95% of the people I talk to both here and in real life hate them and think their inclusion is nothing but paddng. I hate clones, but it kind of makes me sad that so many of my friends are not fans of Lucina and Dark Pit thanks to their clone status.
It does really ruin the impression of the character. I used to be a huge fan of Diddy and Dedede; however, their portrayals in Smash have really turned me off from their characters. Palutena is probably the most recent victim. I WANT Viridi playable, but I do not want her to be given the "magic user" treatment that Sakurai uses to bludgeon awesome characters with staggeringly bad move-sets.

Anyway, I have been TRYING to stick with Lucina. I would not even mind if she were a clone if I enjoyed Marth from Smash 4. I loved him in Melee and Brawl, but they made him so weird, which subsequently makes her weird. I hate paying her, but because I love her character, I try my best.
 

Superyoshiom

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It does really ruin the impression of the character. I used to be a huge fan of Diddy and Dedede; however, their portrayals in Smash have really turned me off from their characters. Palutena is probably the most recent victim. I WANT Viridi playable, but I do not want her to be given the "magic user" treatment that Sakurai uses to bludgeon awesome characters with staggeringly bad move-sets.

Anyway, I have been TRYING to stick with Lucina. I would not even mind if she were a clone if I enjoyed Marth from Smash 4. I loved him in Melee and Brawl, but they made him so weird, which subsequently makes her weird. I hate paying her, but because I love her character, I try my best.
Granted, a lot of characters I've love I'm not the biggest fan of playing. I like Link much more than Toon Link, but if I had to play only one I'd choose the latter in a heartbeat. I found that a lot of the newcomers have movesets that are so complex they're a bit complex to play.
 

BluePikmin11

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Here's the new roster, I fixed the arrangement. :troll:



It's honestly hard to imagine that we wouldn't lose anyone (and I don't just mean things that would barely affect development like the 3 clones) while getting 13 new additions and 4 returning fighters from pre-Smash 4.
It just doesn't seem reasonable considering how development works.

Sheik getting re-tied to Zelda and Pokémon Trainer coming back to re-tie Charizard to his lineup while Zero Suit Samus remains her own character also seems rather iffy. Assuming that any of the separated characters would be put together again in the first place as that's questionable in itself, why would one of them remain separate if the other unit they were tied to is present while the others are groups together again?

Two new characters for Animal Crossing is also a bit excessive.

Daitoryou is always going to be that iffy idea to me that doesn't seem realistic. I get that each game has it's "surprise" character, but the idea seems too far out there even for that. I think there would need to at least be someone to represent things like the Ultra Hand and Ultra Machine first before going to Hanafuda. Though interesting that you put him at the END of the single-character franchises to reference that the deck isn't a video game like what the other characters are from.

Three additional guests in addition to each one currently present in Smash 4 also seems a bit excessive. And since the roster was likely decided on in early 2016, it is unlikely that Doomguy/Doom Slayer would have been in consideration at the time.

Other than that, it's decent of a roster in itself. Just, as you said, too ambitious and hopeful to really be a serious "prediction".
I did not expect your input at all. I appreciate it. BTW, Samus/ZSS getting separated is a mistake in my part. I am of the crowd that believes transformation will return due to 3DS limitations no longer being an issue.

I am also considering removing Shovel Knight, due to having more doubt about indie characters in general. But IDK. I just feel that it would be the next step in terms of choosing new kinds of characters like Bayonetta (ballot) and Wii Fit Trainer (considered to be the WTF Nintendo character) for example. I am risking on Indie characters being the new territory Sakurai gives a chance for playability on.
 
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Superyoshiom

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Cloud will be difficult to negotiate getting back in the game (combined with the fact that I frankly don't like him and don't think he belongs in Smash.)
While I agree with you for the most part, you kept in Bayonetta, and even Cloud has had more appearances on Nintendo consoles than her. This isn't the place for that, though, but overall good roster.

Here's the new roster, I fixed the arrangement. :troll:




I did not expect your input at all. I appreciate it. BTW, Samus/ZSS getting separated is a mistake in my part. I am of the crowd that believes transformation will return due to 3DS limitations no longer being an issue.
Every single one of these rosters posted here I've loved, save for the third parties. If you're adding any of them, it would be Shovel Knight, and even he's kind of unlikely. Also Dr. Mario not as an alt ew.
 
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?????????????

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I thought transformation characters being removed was a conscious choice, not a 3DS limitation?

Regardless, if it were up to me, I would not want transformations to return.
 

Superyoshiom

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I thought transformation characters being removed was a conscious choice, not a 3DS limitation?

Regardless, if it were up to me, I would not want transformations to return.
The only character it made sense for was Pokemon trainer, and they ruined it with the stupid stamina mechanic.
 

Morbi

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I thought transformation characters being removed was a conscious choice, not a 3DS limitation?

Regardless, if it were up to me, I would not want transformations to return.
I am not entirely sure if it was ever confirmed or not; however, I agree with you nevertheless. That being said, the one exception is Zelda and Sheik, if you balance them properly, give Sheik the best neutral with NO kill confirms, and give Zelda only kill moves and kill confirms, I believe that could work as the inherent balance mechanic of taking time to transform would balance out her superior everything else. He is very nearly at that point... But Sheik has kill confirms and Zelda has no neutral. It just creates two unbalanced characters, rather than one. There is also the fact that transformation is literally a part of her.

Or they could just balance Sheik and Zelda. I somewhat doubt that though.
 

Onua

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I was talking to someone about this last night and some people argue if it would be Fossil Fighter or the Trex as the rep.
While I can see Trex, I think Fossil Fighter would be able to represent the series as a whole where I think Trex could only represent a small portion of it.
I see merit in either of them tho being the rep, but I doubt itll be anyone but one of these 2.
 

Superyoshiom

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I was talking to someone about this last night and some people argue if it would be Fossil Fighter or the Trex as the rep.
While I can see Trex, I think Fossil Fighter would be able to represent the series as a whole where I think Trex could only represent a small portion of it.
I see merit in either of them tho being the rep, but I doubt itll be anyone but one of these 2.
Bring back Pokemon Trainer, add in Rex and Pyra, and add in Fossil fighter and we'll have a whole bunch of people in the stage backgrounds in the next Smash.
 
D

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Here's the new roster, I fixed the arrangement. :troll:




I did not expect your input at all. I appreciate it. BTW, Samus/ZSS getting separated is a mistake in my part. I am of the crowd that believes transformation will return due to 3DS limitations no longer being an issue.

I am also considering removing Shovel Knight, due to having more doubt about indie characters getting in the game upon further research.
My points remain the same then other than the transformation characters part.

While it's better now that it is consistent, I don't see it as likely considering Sakurai has expressed how it ended up being a "good direction", as being separated allowed the characters to feel more fresh.

And I'd take out Doomguy before Shovel Knight.
I don't know what research led you to doubt him, but bear in mind that Nintendo published his game in Japan and has shown nothing but support for the Blue Burrower.
 

Bradli Wartooth

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I thought transformation characters being removed was a conscious choice, not a 3DS limitation?

Regardless, if it were up to me, I would not want transformations to return.
Not sure if it was a 3DS limitation either. I was under the impression it was at least somewhat related, though.

Anyways, the idea of transforming characters returning makes me vomit lol. The only exception I have for that would be Pokemon Trainer because it's such a prominent factor in Pokemon games, so it at least makes sense for them. But as much as I would like for Pokemon Trainer to return, I'd rather he didn't if it meant Sheik/ZSS don't become victims of the mechanic.
 

?????????????

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I was talking to someone about this last night and some people argue if it would be Fossil Fighter or the Trex as the rep.
While I can see Trex, I think Fossil Fighter would be able to represent the series as a whole where I think Trex could only represent a small portion of it.
I see merit in either of them tho being the rep, but I doubt itll be anyone but one of these 2.
I've never played or seen Fossil Fighter, but I have had friends who also loved it and wanted it in Smash Bros., and I really appreciate how dedicated and enthusiastic you are to a character's inclusion in SSB. I hope you get what you want!
 

Morbi

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I was talking to someone about this last night and some people argue if it would be Fossil Fighter or the Trex as the rep.
While I can see Trex, I think Fossil Fighter would be able to represent the series as a whole where I think Trex could only represent a small portion of it.
I see merit in either of them tho being the rep, but I doubt itll be anyone but one of these 2.
The thing is though, who actually wants to play as "Fossil Fighter?" Probably fans or whatever. But who wants to play as a T-Rex? Everybody. That is how they get you.
 

Superyoshiom

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There's a lot of Fossil Fighters talk recently. Not that I mind though, any first party Nintendo game should always have a fair shot to get characters in Smash.

Except for more Miis. I remember I told my friends how much I hated Miis in Smash, so every time I played against them they'd create the ugliest Miis and only play as them.
 

BluePikmin11

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EXACTLY! I just wanted to play as Charizard, but I couldn't (effectively), cause that stamina would make it bad over time!
I researched it and found this:

https://gamerant.com/super-smash-bros-3ds-wii-u-no-transformations-explained/

“I mean [the limitations of the 3DS] definitely impacted the decision, but one of the other reasons is that we wanted people to really dive into playing one single character and more deeply.”
I will definitely have to think about it more whether they return or not now. I can see him changing his mind, or even reworking the transformation idea in general.

And I'd take out Doomguy before Shovel Knight.
I don't know what research led you to doubt him, but bear in mind that Nintendo published his game in Japan and has shown nothing but support for the Blue Burrower.
I am unsure about Doom Guy's problem in general. I get really confused how people say it's too late for Doom Guy to get in when people say a Skyrim character is a bigger possibility. I would like to think that Bethesda did plan both a port for both Skyrim AND Doom for the Switch back in early 2016 when Nintendo or Bethesda themselves possibly pitched the idea of these games getting in the game for Sakurai to consider the possibilities of characters from both franchises. I would like further clarification on the matter.
 
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Onua

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I've never played or seen Fossil Fighter, but I have had friends who also loved it and wanted it in Smash Bros., and I really appreciate how dedicated and enthusiastic you are to a character's inclusion in SSB. I hope you get what you want!
Thank you! I am absolutely a giant supporter of him and I do believe the series does deserve recognition in smash at this point. I really am hoping he gets in and I think its totally reasonable and possible.
So yeah I hope so too!
 

Superyoshiom

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Also BluePikmin11 BluePikmin11 did you use Photoshop to make your roster or did you use another program. I've been meaning to share my thoughts for a while and the old SSB4 roster maker isn't working on my computer (and I think it's outdated too).
 

BluePikmin11

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Also BluePikmin11 BluePikmin11 did you use Photoshop to make your roster or did you use another program. I've been meaning to share my thoughts for a while and the old SSB4 roster maker isn't working on my computer (and I think it's outdated too).
I use Sumopaint and Clip Studio Paint for my roster creation. The latter was discounted last month and I have been really enjoying using that program for image editing and drawing in general.
 

Superyoshiom

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I am unsure about Doom Guy's problem in general. I get really confused how people say it's too late for Doom Guy to get in when people say a Skyrim character is a bigger possibility. I would like to think that Bethesda did plan both a port for both Skyrim AND Doom for the Switch back in early 2016 when Nintendo or Bethesda themselves possibly pitched the idea of these games getting in the game for Sakurai to consider the possibilities of characters from both franchises. I would like further clarification on the matter.
I'm perfectly okay with Doom Guy, I see him as kind of like Snake. People forget that most, if not all his major games were on Nintendo consoles, and he is a classic character.
 

Onua

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I think talking about fossil fighter in smash is totally reasonable.
The characters have a ton going for em (Whether that be Trex or the Fossil Fighter)

I do think its more reasonable and realistic than steve or doomguy or such(not saying they arent possible).

I feel talking about first party chars who are oddly not in yet is far more fun cause it feels far more realistic.
 
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TheLastJinjo

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The problem is that Sakurai thinks adding in the clones makes people happier
Wrong. He adds them because the roster is already complete and there is time to add bonus characters.
when 95% of the people I talk to both here and in real life hate them and think their inclusion is nothing but paddng.
Wrong again. All of the clones with the exception of a few, are dearly beloved characters in the fanbase. The only people who complain about them are children who don't understand how game development works.

I hate clones
What an irrational hatred of something so harmless that actually benefits the game.

but it kind of makes me sad that so many of my friends are not fans of Lucina and Dark Pit thanks to their clone status.
I don't feel bad for you and your friends in the slightest. I'm so glad you guys don't get your way when this is the kind of stuff you complain about.

I'm just gonna leave with my favorite quote from the director of Super Smash Bros, which I post a lot on this thread:

“This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, ‘Change this to a meat dish!!'”

“Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.” - Masahiro Sakurai


 

Superyoshiom

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Wrong. He adds them because the roster is already complete and there is time to add bonus characters.

Wrong again. All of the clones with the exception of a few, are dearly beloved characters in the fanbase. The only people who complain about them are children who don't understand how game development works.


What an irrational hatred of something so harmless that actually benefits the game.


I don't feel bad for you and your friends in the slightest. I'm so glad you guys don't get your way when this is the kind of stuff you complain about.

I'm just gonna leave with my favorite quote from the director of Super Smash Bros, which I post a lot on this thread:

“This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, ‘Change this to a meat dish!!'”

“Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.” - Masahiro Sakurai

Did Sakurai actually say the last quote?
 

Fenriraga

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Every day that I'm reminded that Geno almost made it into Smash TWICE is a day in which I am reminded that reality is indeed cruel.
 

Morbi

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I researched it and found this:

https://gamerant.com/super-smash-bros-3ds-wii-u-no-transformations-explained/



I will definitely have to think about it more whether they return or not now. I can see him changing his mind, or even reworking the transformation idea in general.


I am unsure about Doom Guy's problem in general. I get really confused how people say it's too late for Doom Guy to get in when people say a Skyrim character is a bigger possibility. I would like to think that Bethesda did plan both a port for both Skyrim AND Doom for the Switch back in early 2016 when Nintendo or Bethesda themselves possibly pitched the idea of these games getting in the game for Sakurai to consider the possibilities of characters from both franchises. I would like further clarification on the matter.
To be real, Doom Guy's bigger problem is that Sakurai himself is probably terrified of all dangerous weapons. Cartoon violence is one thing, I guess. But once you cross that line? Eek. Nothing scares him more than the thought of Kirby inhaling the buckshot from the Super Shotgun and getting sliced open by his chainsaw. Which, well, considering this is Nintendo, fair enough.
 
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