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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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Pacack

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How would you guys feel if there was a default version made of each of the Mii fighters that referenced various Wii titles, while still keeping the movesets essentially the same?



Mii Brawler could be made to resemble Miis as they appear in Wii Sports' and Wii Sports Club's Boxing game.



Mii Swordfighter could be made to resemble Miis as they appear in Wii Sport Resort's Swordplay Duel or as they appear in Find Mii and Find Mii 2 for Streetpass on the 3DS.



Mii Gunner could be made to have the Wii Remote itself, referencing the several games (see: Shooting Range for Wii Play) that involve treating the Wii Remote like a gun. Alternatively, the NES Zapper could be used, since the aforementioned Shooting Range Game is an homage to Duck Hunt.


This would make the Mii characters more representative of their home games while simultaneously leaving the option for customizability open.
 
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DBPirate

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I think they should not only keep Miis, but the classes as well and add maybe two more while they're at it. (especially Mage. I see that one thrown around here a lot)

One of the major appeals of the Miis was that you were able to play as characters that weren't in the game like Chrom and the Inkling, as the Swordfighter and Gunner respectively. If you took away the classes and replaced them with a Miitopia or Wii Sports moveset, you lose that appeal. I have a feeling even less people would play the Miis if they did that.

Pacack Pacack Wanted to make it clear I wasn't responding to you. Your post didn't show up until after I posted mine. That's a great idea!
 
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DraginHikari

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Remember folks.

The character is shilled if they had a recent game and I don't particularly care about them.

Was the character popular, unique and a good fit in their own right?

Doesn't matter. Still a shilled character. And that's why they're bad and full of donkey doo doo.


If you can't tell, I despise the word "shill." It's a pointless term at this point that's only used to discredit things without needing to provide meaningful explanations..
The internet likes to take words and render them meaningless through over use.
 

True Blue Warrior

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Just to bring up the ballot again because i don't feel i asked this here, who do you you think had a high enough placing in the Smash Ballot to be chosen for Smash 5, outside of Inklings obviously.
If someone as obscure as Geno could be popular enough among the silent majority for Sakurai to take notice, who knows? Maybe Lloyd?
 

Cosmic77

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Honestly, I've never understood this logic. If cuts are made due to time constraints, why would the clones, the characters who require the least effort, be the ones to go?

Obviously, we had clones cut in the transition from Melee to Brawl, but circumstances were a bit different then. Sakurai was actively differentiating every clone he brought back from their base (Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco) and likely opted to cut Roy and Dr. Mario because he didn't have time to do the same for them. (Or, in Dr. Mario's case, because it might have been awkward to have both Marios for Subspace.)

In the transition from Brawl to Smash 4, the characters that were cut due to time constraints were semi-clones (Lucas initially, Wolf) and Pokemon Trainer's less popular two Pokemon. The semi-clones were, frankly, only cut because people valued fully unique movesets more than the 75% unique semi-clone movesets.

Semi-clones being cut actually saved time and resources because they were mostly unique. In the transition from Melee to Brawl, them being cut saved time and resources because Sakurai wanted to de-clone them as much as possible and didn't have time.

This time around, there's not really a reason to de-clone the clones we have. Lucina is Marth without the tip, which doesn't take much effort and is still unique. Dark Pit is almost entirely the same as Pit, but exists because Sakurai wanted a different Final Smash; he may not change at all outside of that. Dr. Mario is just a Melee throwback, and has no real reason to be further decloned than he already is.

Cutting any of those clones saves such a small amount of development time that it's not really worth it. You could save more time by cutting a unique character (say, the Mii Gunner while keeping the other Miis) and come out with more characters than you would cutting all three clones.
My argument regarding clones being the unlikeliest to return has never been because of time restraints, but rather because they match an existing character and are deemed lowest priority.

If semi-clones Wolf and Lucas were cut from Brawl because of time restraints, then why the heck would most of their moves return as custom moves for Fox and Ness respectively? Programming a moveset is arguably the hardest part of making a character, so what time did Sakurai save in this case if he ended up making the pair's specials anyway? Yeah, the standard attacks would still need to be programmed, but if you have the specials up and ready, then you've already got the hardest part of the character out of the way. I suppose you could also argue that the models would have taken up too much time, but it's hard pushing that idea forward when Bowser Jr., one of the last newcomers to get finished, had enough time to get special alts of all seven Koopalings. Honestly, if you think about it, there's not much that should have held Wolf and Lucas back, yet they still got cut from the roster.

Aside from Cloud and the weird issues coming from SE, I can't imagine any character in Smash 4 getting cut before one of the three clones. In terms of priority, those three are at the very bottom, and the only thing that's saving them from being viewed as sure-fire cuts is the fact that Sakurai has the option to port literally everything from Smash 4 and make adjustments.
 

Cosmic77

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This is hype. :eek:
Not to be a Debbie Downer here, but Sakurai talks about all sorts of video games he's played in those columns. I don't think this particularly translates to, "Oh my gosh, Sakurai is thinking about adding an indie character like Sans in Smash!"
 

Ivander

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This is hype. :eek:
Oh boy....that last one is going to hype up people.

That being said, I doubt it means anything. But it is pretty nice to see into Sakurai's gaming life. Really helps you see his passion for games.
 

Staarih

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Not to be a Debbie Downer here, but Sakurai talks about all sorts of video games he's played in those columns. I don't think this particularly translates to, "Oh my gosh, Sakurai is thinking about adding an indie character like Sans in Smash!"
Wait, Sakurai doesn't add a character in Smash from every game he plays!?

But yeah, all this really tells us is how surprisingly invested Sakurai is in the gaming scene, like, he'd be the last I'd imagine playing Undertale. Or maybe that's just me.
Like, I know he develops video games but still.
 
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Ivander

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You know a third-party character that would really "break the internet"? Tracer.
I bet she would to some extent. I don't see her happening though, even if Overwatch is super popular and Tracer would be an easy family friendly character to fit in, has potential for a unique and interesting moveset and whatnot.

I wouldn't be against it though if she did get in.
 

Curious Villager

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Not to be a Debbie Downer here, but Sakurai talks about all sorts of video games he's played in those columns. I don't think this particularly translates to, "Oh my gosh, Sakurai is thinking about adding an indie character like Sans in Smash!"
Didn't he complain once about how people tend to read too much into his posts and relate it all to Smash?

Then again, maybe he shouldn't have shared stuff like Shulk's Monado and a pic with Dark Pit and a number of Smash characters together and all... Not that that would have stopped the fans from overanalyzing his tweets but still.
 
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Pacack

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My argument regarding clones being the unlikeliest to return has never been because of time restraints, but rather because they match an existing character and are deemed lowest priority.

If semi-clones Wolf and Lucas were cut from Brawl because of time restraints, then why the heck would most of their moves return as custom moves for Fox and Ness respectively?
They didn't.

Programming a moveset is arguably the hardest part of making a character, so what time did Sakurai save in this case if he ended up making the pair's specials anyway? Yeah, the standard attacks would still need to be programmed, but if you have the specials up and ready, then you've already got the hardest part of the character out of the way.
The specials are a bit under 1/5 of a character's moves when you consider tilts, aerials, smashes, and grabs. This does not include the additional work that comes from modeling walking/running/jumping/pummeling/swimming animations. Keep in mind that more than 80% of Wolf's moveset was completely unique, with only conceptual similarities to Fox and Falco.

I suppose you could also argue that the models would have taken up too much time, but it's hard pushing that idea forward when Bowser Jr., one of the last newcomers to get finished, had enough time to get special alts of all seven Koopalings. Honestly, if you think about it, there's not much that should have held Wolf and Lucas back, yet they still got cut from the roster.
Except the Koopalings are more similar to clones than they are to Wolf and Lucas. All of their animations and moves are lifted directly from another character and put onto a new model with the same skeleton. The difference is that the clones also have their moves slightly altered, like Lucina's hitboxes or Dr. Mario's pills.

A semi-clone is not, by any means, the same thing as a clone. It's not reasonable to say that the relationship between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf is the same as the relationship between Dark Pit and Pit. There are too many significant differences between the pairs.

Aside from Cloud and the weird issues coming from SE, I can't imagine any character in Smash 4 getting cut before one of the three clones. In terms of priority, those three are at the very bottom, and the only thing that's saving them from being viewed as sure-fire cuts is the fact that Sakurai has the option to port literally everything from Smash 4 and make adjustments.
You're thinking about this as if cutting one of the three clones would save as much development time as cutting one completely unique character, but that simply isn't true.

In Melee, Sakurai has stated that he didn't have enough time to include one more new character at the end of development, but he did have time for six clones. The implication is that a single completely unique character takes as much development time as more than six clones.

It's reasonable to say based on what we know that the time saved from cutting three clones wouldn't even be enough time to develop a single semi-clone, let alone a full character. Why bother when you could cut one character and save yourself more than double the time?
 

True Blue Warrior

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Honestly, I've never understood this logic. If cuts are made due to time constraints, why would the clones, the characters who require the least effort, be the ones to go?

Obviously, we had clones cut in the transition from Melee to Brawl, but circumstances were a bit different then. Sakurai was actively differentiating every clone he brought back from their base (Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco) and likely opted to cut Roy and Dr. Mario because he didn't have time to do the same for them. (Or, in Dr. Mario's case, because it might have been awkward to have both Marios for Subspace.)

In the transition from Brawl to Smash 4, the characters that were cut due to time constraints were semi-clones (Lucas initially, Wolf) and Pokemon Trainer's less popular two Pokemon. The semi-clones were, frankly, only cut because people valued fully unique movesets more than the 75% unique semi-clone movesets.

Semi-clones being cut actually saved time and resources because they were mostly unique. In the transition from Melee to Brawl, them being cut saved time and resources because Sakurai wanted to de-clone them as much as possible and didn't have time.

This time around, there's not really a reason to de-clone the clones we have. Lucina is Marth without the tip, which doesn't take much effort and is still unique. Dark Pit is almost entirely the same as Pit, but exists because Sakurai wanted a different Final Smash; he may not change at all outside of that. Dr. Mario is just a Melee throwback, and has no real reason to be further decloned than he already is.

Cutting any of those clones saves such a small amount of development time that it's not really worth it. You could save more time by cutting a unique character (say, the Mii Gunner while keeping the other Miis) and come out with more characters than you would cutting all three clones.
There is also the fact that being a clone doesn't even guarantee that they'll even be low-priority. Let's not forget that Falco was higher priority than Mewtwo as well as the fact that Toon Link, the only clone newcomer in Brawl, was higher priority than Lucas, Wolf, Squirtle and Ivysaur (don't say they were cut because of transformation because if Sheik and Zero Suit Samus could retrun despite transformation being cut, so could they). Granted, the only Smash 4 clone character I personally think has a good chance of being high priority is Lucina, since she's more of a fan-favourite than Doc and Dark Pit and still is a major,highly promoted face of the FE franchise which makes her situation more akin to Falco in in Brawl than Doc's in Brawl.
 

Cosmic77

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It's reasonable to say based on what we know that the time saved from cutting three clones wouldn't even be enough time to develop a single semi-clone, let alone a full character. Why bother when you could cut one character and save yourself more than double the time?
The whole point I'm getting at is that time restrains aren't the only reason why a character could get cut. Sakurai said that Wolf was cut because he was a lower priority. The whole "cutting Wolf saved time" theory is something that we all concluded ourselves, but it's entirely possible that Sakurai had no plans to bring Wolf back from the beginning of Smash 4's development. Truth is, there's a number of different reasons why a character might not come back, and to say that the three clones are relatively safe just because they wouldn't save much time if they were cut isn't good reasoning.
 

RawstyleEevee

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The whole point I'm getting at is that time restrains aren't the only reason why a character could get cut. Sakurai said that Wolf was cut because he was a lower priority. The whole "cutting Wolf saved time" theory is something that we all concluded ourselves, but it's entirely possible that Sakurai had no plans to bring Wolf back from the beginning of Smash 4's development. Truth is, there's a number of different reasons why a character might not come back, and to say that the three clones are relatively safe just because they wouldn't save much time if they were cut isn't good reasoning.
The Smash 4 clones(Dark Pit, Lucina & Dr. Mario) also where more bonus, due they where glorified costumes, while Melee clones took longer to develop really (for example with Ganondorf and Pichu, there they had to develop a more detailed model, while someone like Dark Pit, model wise is more copy paste)
 

APC99

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Mark my words, we're not getting Sans / Papyrus / Frisk / Flowey / So Sorry or whatever monster is popular now in Smash Switch. Undertale is popular, yes, it's been on a Nintendo console now, cool. But Undertale is in no way on the same league as Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Cloud UNLESS the ballot got a character in.

Which I doubt.

IF (and only if) we get an indie character in Smash, my bet is on Shovel Knight, simply because Nintendo published it in Japan, Shovel Knight himself is in literally everything under the sun, and chances are he did decently on the Ballot (not Top 10, but probably high enough to be noticed). However, I think that the most we'll get are trophies and maybe a Mii costume or two.
 

True Blue Warrior

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But Undertale is in no way on the same league as Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Cloud UNLESS the ballot got a character in.
And neither is Geno, yet he was a character that was not just seriously considered by Sakurai, but also wanted. This proves that, of all the reasons why an Undertale wouldn't be considered or wanted by Sakurai, icon status would not be the barrier, seeing as the assumption that third-parties had to be iconic for Sakurai to even want to have them as playable characters no longer works. Geno definitely didn't need a ballot to be wanted in Brawl by Sakurai.
 

PsychoJosh

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And neither is Geno, yet he was a character that was not just seriously considered by Sakurai, but also wanted.
False equivalence. Geno has more going for him because he's a historic fan favorite character from one of Nintendo's primary franchises, I think even though he is a secondary character from a 22 year old RPG at this point (damn, time flies), the mere fact that he is a Mario universe character gives him more importance in the eyes of Nintendo.
 

Mega Bidoof

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But Undertale is in no way on the same league as Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Ryu and Cloud UNLESS the ballot got a character in.​

Which I doubt.
To add to it being unlikely an Undertale character scored high in the ballot, the ballot ended when Undertale had only been out for about a month and a week, which was well before it blew up.
 

True Blue Warrior

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False equivalence. Geno has more going for him because he's a historic fan favorite character from one of Nintendo's primary franchises, I think even though he is a secondary character from a 22 year old RPG at this point (damn, time flies), the mere fact that he is a Mario universe character gives him more importance in the eyes of Nintendo.
In the grand scale of things, Geno is only well known among core Nintendo fans, whereas Sans is far more well-known and has more of an impact on the gaming community. Also, the fact that his only major appearance was in a 2 million selling Mario spin off several years ago who hasn't even been used by the company who owns him in the two Mario games they collaborated with Nintendo with (Mario Hoops 3-on-3 and Mario Sports Mix) shows he has no real importance to Nintendo or Square Enix.
 
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Yoshi-Thomas

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In the grand scale of things, Geno is only well known among core Nintendo fans, whereas Sans is far more well-known and has more of an impact on the gaming community. Also, the fact that his only major appearance was in a 2 million selling Mario spin off several years ago who hasn't even been used by the company who owns him in the two Mario games they collaborated with Nintendo with (Mario Hoops 3-on-3 and Mario Sports Mix) shows he has no real importance to Nintendo or Square Enix.
Ok but Genos is still not in Smash Bros. It's not far-fetched to think that no Undertale character will be playable.
 
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PsychoJosh

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In the grand scale of things, Geno is only well known among core Nintendo fans, whereas Sans is far more well-known and has more of an impact on the gaming community.
There's a lot to pick apart in what you just said. It seems you're making a lot of assumptions and automatically jumping to conclusions. What evidence do you have that the "core Nintendo fanbase" who knows about Geno is smaller than the Undertale fanbase? You have an unverifiable number in the amount of copies SMRPG sold, but that doesn't really mean that's how many people know about Geno. And how do you know Sans has "had more of an impact" in the gaming community? This statement doesn't really make any sense, there's no way to quantify this sort of thing.

Geno already appears in Smash as a Mii Costume, and Sakurai has actually said that he did consider him as a character at one point. So your statement that he has no importance to Nintendo is incorrect. They've acknowledged several times he has a significant fanbase.

 
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PsychoJosh

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Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

Honestly I think it's pretty terrible, and unlikely. I highly doubt that there won't be any cut characters, or that the only three new guests we get are Doomguy, Rayman and Shovel Knight. Also, THREE Animal Crossing reps?! Get real please. They've already pushed the limits of what they could do with Villager alone.

I'm expecting an entirely different roster.
 
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Yoshi-Thomas

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Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

Commenting from top to bottom :
-Dixie is reasonnable, so OK.
-Wolf is a cut character who could be easy to bring back, so ok.
Two new AC characters might be too much, but I don't know if it's really popular, I would say only one.
-Pokémon trainer coming back? Ambitious, I would say no, he won't be in.
-Decidueye, looks possible if there is no suprise gen 8 mon.
-Rex and Pyra, ok depending on when the roster was decided.
-Takamaru, OK.
-Ice Climbers, OK.
-Chorus Kids, an idea put under the carpet, being used again? I doubt it, I'll give it 25% of chance happening.
-Nintendo's original work? Probably not happening but I'd love it.
-Spring-man, same than Rex and Pyra.
-Doomguy would be cool (is it him?), but I doubt it.
-Rayman, OK.
-Shovel Knight, OK for indies representation, but I'd put him on the left of Pacman.

I can't say if it's solid or not, but in the great scheme of things, we think almost the same way.
I suppose that you think it was a port at first that became a new game?
 
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True Blue Warrior

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And how do you know Sans has "had more of an impact" in the gaming community? This statement doesn't really make any sense, there's no way to quantify this sort of thing.
Based off the accolades and huge fan community it has as well as the controversy surrounding it winning a gamefaqs poll, it's safe to say Undertale has had a huge impact on the online community. Sans himself is one of the most iconic and often referenced characters from Undertale.

Geno already appears in Smash as a Mii Costume, and Sakurai has actually said that he did consider him as a character at one point. So your statement that he has no importance to Nintendo is incorrect
If being in Smash correlates to how important the character/franchise is to Nintendo, then Mother having two characters and F-Zero having one would logically show how important those franchises are to Nintendo. Except given how little Nintendo has done with those two franchises given there hasn't been a new game for them in many years, that argument doesn't really work. If that was the case, then Kid Icarus, from how much content it has in Smash 4, would be a highly promoted Nintendo franchise outside of Smash with an upcoming game instead of being an inactive franchise with no future. Sakurai's want and choices=/= Nintendo as a whole.
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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This roster was made the 8th April of 2014, based solely on the Gematsu leak.
Was pretty close, wasn't it? The mistakes were :
-Mewtwo
-Wolf
-Ice Climbers (3DS limitation)
-Chorus Men
-Chrom
+Robin
+Lucina (last minute clone)
+Dark Pit (last minute clone)
+Dr Mario (last minute clone)
+Two other sorts of Mii
+Bowser Jr
+Duck Hunt

It's not perfect but it's not impossible to anticipate Sakurai. (Granted that we had the leak, this time we don't even know which veterans are certain to come back)
Maybe Bluepikmin got this?
 

ColietheGoalie

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Mind if you guys check my new prediction roster? I think it is a bit too ambitious and somewhat too hopeful, but what do you think?

I quite like it, with my only changes being to switch one of the AC characters with a Metroid rep, swap Dixie for K.Rool, and trim down the third parties a bit (Doom Guy should never happen in my books, ha).
 

?????????????

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For several reasons, I find having an Undertale character playable in Smash Bros. unlikely.

However, what I want to know is...would you enjoy having an Undertale character in Smash Bros.?

For me, the answer would be yes. I don't know if it would be the most, uh... "deserving," per se, but I really liked Undertale and it meets all the other "requirements" we've set it stone, and ultimately I think it'd be pretty fun.
 

Hinata

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For several reasons, I find having an Undertale character playable in Smash Bros. unlikely.

However, what I want to know is...would you enjoy having an Undertale character in Smash Bros.?

For me, the answer would be yes. I don't know if it would be the most, uh... "deserving," per se, but I really liked Undertale and it meets all the other "requirements" we've set it stone, and ultimately I think it'd be pretty fun.
I'd like it. I know the fandom for Undertale is awful, but the game itself was still really, really good, and I'd love to see how Sakurai could transfer some of Undertale's gameplay elements into Smash Bros.
 

RawstyleEevee

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Commenting from top to bottom :
-Dixie is reasonnable, so OK.
-Wolf is a cut character who could be easy to bring back, so ok.
Two new AC characters might be too much, but I don't know if it's really popular, I would say only one.
-Pokémon trainer coming back? Ambitious, I would say no, he won't be in.
-Decidueye, looks possible if there is no suprise gen 8 mon.
-Rex and Pyra, ok depending on when the roster was decided.
-Takamaru, OK.
-Ice Climbers, OK.
-Chorus Kids, an idea put under the carpet, being used again? I doubt it, I'll give it 25% of chance happening.
-Nintendo's original work? Probably not happening but I'd love it.
-Spring-man, same than Rex and Pyra.
-Doomguy would be cool (is it him?), but I doubt it.
-Rayman, OK.
-Shovel Knight, OK for indies representation, but I'd put him on the left of Pacman.

I can't say if it's solid or not, but in the great scheme of things, we think almost the same way.
I suppose that you think it was a port at first that became a new game?
Regarding Rex & Pyra, Its worth nothing XB2 started development in 2015 to and I have this feeling that this time arround, Sakurai is also considering the first year of the Switch, due the WiiU era is sadly barren to select newcomers from (Inklings imo being the only real big one) and 2015 was when Nintendo overall was in a "drought" (dropping development on most WiiU projects, to focus on Switch)
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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Regarding Rex & Pyra, Its worth nothing XB2 started development in 2015 to and I have this feeling that this time arround, Sakurai is also considering the first year of the Switch, due the WiiU era is sadly barren to select newcomers from (Inklings imo being the only real big one) and 2015 was when Nintendo overall was in a "drought" (dropping development on most WiiU projects, to focus on Switch)
More waifus in my game won't make it any lame.
 
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