Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[JustCallMeJon]

Yeah, like how Brawl sold far less than Mele- oh, wait.

To be fair, Melee is from the GC and Brawl is from the Wii. Gamecube sold worse than Wii actually.

One sold over 7 million copies from a console that is slightly more than 20 million compare to Brawl's over 10 million copies from a console that sold over 100 million copies. Same thing to Wii U version, it sold poorly thus Smash Wii U version sold over 5 million, less than Melee's amount. However, since 3DS sold really well, no doubt that the 3DS version sold MUCH better there, selling over 9 million copies.

Smash sales usually compares by how popular the console is rather than core audience actually.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Apologies in advance, but...
From Wikipedia: "The burden of proof is the obligation of a party in a trial to produce the evidence that will prove the claims they have made against the other party."

Those who claim it's real have to prove it's veracity, but those who claim it's fake have to prove their claim as well.

Thank you! It really does get aggravating when people misuse the words "proof" and "evidence", but I'd rather not turn it into an epistemological discussion, so for me, I re-frame it in terms of evidence because it's much easier to talk in terms of "what side has the evidence" rather than "which side needs to prove" what, except in case like it has been mentioned, where the quality of the evidence itself is in question (a case we have here).

I'm willing to share the evidence for its veracity--though P Paperchampion23 did a good job there. And I'm willing to examine the evidence brought on by those thinking it's false--even if it's just "clouds". But, I will not get into an argument over "who's job it is to prove what".

 

[FalcoXP]

I hate this rumored esrb 2.0 now

Ever one is hating on each other

Serb leak was just as doubtful but no one was really hating on eachother

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

 

[Paperchampion23]

Eh, having new renders isn't really a pro, the picture is so low quality we can't tell if they're actually good renders or not, and they're pretty small too, it wouldn't require a whole lot of effort to make seven renders to that scale.

If that's the one thing you are rebutting from the 12 or so things I mentioned, then I've done my job there. There's no good way to explain why the leak is fake.

And of course, I actually agree. But they look good from what we can see, as good as everything else. In fact, they actually don't stick out if you look at the image without people highlighting or circling them. Personal opinion obviously.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

I'm under the impression that his source is some sort of insider, or he wouldn't have made the video.

Same. He could use a good haircut (Papa would look SHARP in a crew cut), but I tend to take papagenos word over most other people. I think if the source had NO evidence, he either wouldn't have made the video or would have mentioned it in the video. He's a lot more honest than, say, LaxChris.

 

[Taco Cruise]

Who would win:

Actual insiders with actual information
OR
papagenos ' second-hand source that he somewhat doubts himself

No disrespect to papagenos, but you're performing some amazing mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion.

And YOU'RE going for the gold medal in the mental gymnastics olympics event for ignoring mountains of evidence in favor of the leak that not only are corroborated by Chadondorf's leak in September, but now also Papagenos source, vs. insiders that are CONSTANTLY wrong.

 

[KMDP]

Am I missing anything here? Because this seems far from impossible, honestly.

You missed the bits between "Create the Renders" and "Fling everything onto a table" where they have to print it all with the proper equipment on proper materials.

Not that this is impossible, but it's disingenuous to skip that essential step.

 

[Flon]

I hate this rumored esrb 2.0 now

Ever one is hating on each other

Serb leak was just as doubtful but no one was really hating on eachother

I remember there being a lot more hate to be honest. Especially when some relevant content creators at the time were debunking the ESRB as "Brawl Mod" and that claim started to appear as evidence against it. Two sides really wanted to shove the truth in the others' faces.

The whole "Shulk is a photoshopped Little Mac" is so remembered today because of how absurd it was and how much hate was passed around from those who believed it and those who didn't. It wasn't exactly fun at the time.

 

[Potato_]

Who would win:

Actual insiders with actual information
OR
papagenos ' second-hand source that he somewhat doubts himself

No disrespect to papagenos, but you're performing some amazing mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion.

Where was he doubting it? His video came off as him believing it pretty strongly. I'll fully admit that he could simply be misled by this guy though.

Personally I'm willing to take his source's word that he has proof on Banjo. But that's as far as I'll go, as according to the source they don't have proof on the others, they've just heard those names. With the whole "leaker-bait" thing being basically confirmed, simply hearing names isn't enough for me at this point.

So IMO the leak is probably fake, I'm leaning that way due to the problems with the new company and the large amount of insiders doubting it.

 

[Maxoxpower]

Nah this actually very slightly helps it actually, the movie was in production in 2016. (I doubt the marketing would have been done then though).

but you don't work on "publicité sur le lieu de vente " // advertising at the point of sale materials
in 2016....

 

[ZeldaPlayer87]

I don’t know, guys. The Mach Rider render looks a lot like the render Smashified did.

 

[mbvswb]

At least if the leak is real, after the initial "I told you so" we'll all be buddy buddy and excited about this roster....


lol

 

[FlappyFalco]

You missed the bits between "Create the Renders" and "Fling everything onto a table" where they have to print it all with the proper equipment on proper materials.

Not that this is impossible, but it's disingenuous to skip that essential step.

Whoops 2.0! Had that in my head, but forgot to add it. I'm Team Neutral right now TBH.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So off topic I know, and this will get buried

But...
Was anyone else even slightly disappointed the Gangplank Galleon remix wasnt more piratey? I love it as is but it's missing that pirate vibe the original and brawl versions had.

Hell no are you suggesting Brawl's remix of Gangplank Galleon is better than this one in any significant way. It has the drums for the build up but turns a cheery song that transitions to a tense one to a boring one, it's up there with Brawl Brinstar and VS Cynthia as worst remixes. (I'm saying Brawl Brinstar as it's just Prime Pinball Brinstar but with 8bit at one part)

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

Anybody can photoshop characters into the banner, just saying.

 

[TheCJBrine]

People have been saying 'why' for fake. The leak was a bunch of pictures of what is supposed to be in the game, but no actual text to explain anything. The community itself created the 'proof' based on the pictures provided; the one who provided the 'leak' did nothing beyond give the leak itself. Its now on them to return and give their 'Why'; to give their rebuttal to the 'why not'. Thus Burden of proof is back in their court.

The "why" for fake is just as good as the "why" for real; it's based on a bunch of assumptions. It could be fabricated, but it could be official art. It's 50/50 and we really can't do anything with it until the next direct either confirms it or kills it with as little as the pose for a character on the mural (Ken).

Anybody can photoshop characters into the banner, if I wanted to I could photoshop WWE wrestlers in those spots the so called "leaked characters" are

The banner isn't why people think it's real; if it was just the banner, it would have been left in the dust.

 

[Tart]

Is it odd that finally seeing Isabelle's "getting hit" animation has made my week?

 

[osby]

To be fair, Melee is from the GC and Brawl is from the Wii. Gamecube sold worse than Wii actually.

One sold over 7 million copies from a console that is slightly more than 20 million compare to Brawl's over 10 million copies from a console that sold over 100 million copies. Same thing to Wii U version, it sold poorly thus Smash Wii U version sold over 5 million, less than Melee's amount. However, since 3DS sold really well, no doubt that the 3DS version sold MUCH better there, selling over 9 million copies.

Smash sales usually compares by how popular the console is rather than core audience actually.

True, but Sakurai still makes games according to their console's main audience. Brawl and 3DS were the most casual games because they were on the casual consoles. And both are the best selling Smash games. Despite that, Sakurai still caters to hardcore fans hugely.

I'm just saying there is no reason to shun one audience but if you have to pick one, picking hardcore fans isn't the 100% best decision all the time.

 

[mbvswb]

Hell no are you suggesting Brawl's remix of Gangplank Galleon is better than this one in any significant way. It has the drums for the build up but turns a cheery song that transitions to a tense one to a boring one, it's up there with Brawl Brinstar and VS Cynthia as worst remixes. (I'm saying Brawl Brinstar as it's just Prime Pinball Brinstar but with 8bit at one part)

Overall, I think Ultimate's is better, it's just missing that piratey vibe

 

[Pyra]

Who would win:

Actual insiders with actual information
OR
papagenos ' second-hand source that he somewhat doubts himself

No disrespect to papagenos, but you're performing some amazing mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion.

Does he doubt them?
When I was watching his video earlier, I thought he made it particularly clear that he trusted the source fully.

If I missed something, I'm not surprised, but this is my understanding.

Also, I'm not so sure we can really trust every insider, either. I don't think that they would intentionally lie or anything, and if they did then it kinda makes the argument moot, so I'm tossing that out the window. However, I can't help but attach myself to previous comments talking about how differently Sakurai et. al. are handling leaks this time. There's nothing saying they didn't give people outside of the immediate team real information as well as fake information to muddle leaks. This isn't a new concept, and has been brought up a bunch of times here.

They obviously have to tell people outside of the immediate team who is in the game at some point. So at some point, no matter how many secrets they try to keep, they'll eventually have to divulge the information to someone else, and that inevitably ends up with leaks no matter how trustworthy some people may be. So, as a countermeasure, false information is included with the real information.

Whether or not that also applies to this banner is another thing. I doubt it- a printed banner with fake characters is useless at a Smash event. Haha.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Anybody can photoshop characters into the banner, if I wanted to I could photoshop WWE wrestlers in those spots the so called "leaked characters" are

If you ask me, though, if they were photoshopped, we probably would've known by now...

 

[T-Hell]

Who would win:

Actual insiders with actual information
OR
papagenos ' second-hand source that he somewhat doubts himself

No disrespect to papagenos, but you're performing some amazing mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion.

The difference is those insiders are "manipulated" by Nintendo while Papagenos has nothing to lose in that regard. Also I never compared both, I just mentioned that I personally trust papa. Another different thing is that his sources are wrong, but I don't think papa himself is lying, he doesn't seem to be that kind.

 

[ZeldaPlayer87]

Anybody can photoshop characters into the banner, just saying.

Right, but a far as we know, Nintendo is the only one that can move each character around without drastically messing up the background. Can you do that and create unrevealed body parts for characters you did move when inserting your own characters (ie like what the leaker showed us with Roy and Greninja)?

 

[Chrono.]

Yeesh, Andre of GX has been getting harassed by people and so have other insiders apparently.

Reminder that its just a game. A game that comes out in like a month.

 

[CantGetRidOfTheRidley]

You talked about Odyssey's sales and PLG's sale numbers you learned via clairvoyance.

I was refering to LGPE's quality from everything they've shown, not it's sales. The game will sell great most likely, but it'll sell great regardless of how "casual" it is because it's a Pokemon game. As long as it has decent marketing it won't fail. What I'm saying is it could've been a good game too and still sold to casuals.

Also, then what equals to quality? Your opinions, I assume.

Usually people can get a good feel for how good a game is based on how it runs, the art direction, the content, game design, and balance, and plenty of factors that make up the game itself. There's definitely going to be some level of opinion but unless you're IGN you're not going to say something crazy like God Hand is worse than Imagine Babiez. Or, you can adopt the belief that games are entirely 100% subjective and there's no point trying to ever access or debate if a game might be good or bad, everything is just opinion. E.T. and Bubsy are the exact same quality-wise as Super Mario 64 and Ico.

Pretty sure Nintendo and Game Freak won't lose any sleep over a few people being unhappy as long as the games sell, which they will. Very well, I imagine.

I don't doubt that at all either, the drive to make good games left Game Freak long ago judging from all of Masuda's interviews (well at least his drive), with stuff like "we didn't add the Battle Frontier because mobile games exist."

You know, I'm really tired of seeing people meme about Brawl. Brawl set the goddamn standard for content, a huge mode which while admittedly, wasn't THAT good, it was a cool idea which shows there was care put into it with those cutscenes (Except for the Great Maze my god that's lazy as ****). It added a bunch of stages, new and old, and changed the music system to something that allowed us to get even MORE content in form of songs. And then there's Assist Trophies and while sure, sometimes our favourites don't make the cut, but seeing them fight alongside others brings joy to many people, I myself was absolutely amazed whem 2 games later, a kickstarter origin indie character joined a game with the ****ing Mario brothers.

I honestly don't care too much about the whole Brawl VS Melee since I don't play competitively at all and Brawl had a great OST and is fun (and mods), but I do acknowledge that Melee feels a lot better to play. Melee also has the superior selection of trophies and you can't convince me Brawl did that better. The cutscenes are great though, shame that probably won't return. At least ROB got the best scene.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

That's what I want to know.

 

[Deleted member]

View attachment 171943

Did anyone realize that I was the one who made this LPS Leak from a few pages back? How does it look? Pls give honest opinions.

 

[Hydrualic Hydra]

I hate this rumored esrb 2.0 now

Ever one is hating on each other

Serb leak was just as doubtful but no one was really hating on eachother

HAAAAAAARD disagree,

The discussion so far for Grinch leak has been extremely mature and respectful, and not just by forum standards.

ESRB was a ****ing WARZONE.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Anybody can photoshop characters into the banner, just saying.

*Anybody can recreate the background, design artwork for all of the unannounced characters and veterans who, through movement change, would require extra work, move all the characters around in order to add new ones in, placed in such a way where every character is balanced

Fixed that.

 

[osby]

Is it odd that finally seeing Isabelle's "getting hit" animation has made my week?

Oh, yeah, you can actually hit Isabelle, **** it, I'm not buying this animal abusing piece of **** game. How dare they.

I hope I don't need to tell you it's a joke.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

And YOU'RE going for the gold medal in the mental gymnastics olympics event for ignoring mountains of evidence in favor of the leak that not only are corroborated by Chadondorf's leak in September, but now also Papagenos source, vs. insiders that are CONSTANTLY wrong.

If you want to ignore the hard evidence presented by Spawn Wave, the Resetera mod team, and Nintendo Life's Alec, who have been proven multiple times to have actual insider information, alongside multiple other proven insiders who have proven insider sources that have occasionally been wrong in favor of a single source and a 4chan text leak be my guest. But don't be surprised if its fake.

 

[Potato_]

Yeesh, Andre of GX has been getting harassed by people and so have other insiders apparently.

Reminder that its just a game. A game that comes out in like a month.

And that harassing these guys isn't going to make your character any more likely, or the leak any more real.

 

[alemerltoucanet]

Is it odd that finally seeing Isabelle's "getting hit" animation has made my week?

I started crying.

 

[FalcoXP]

Is it odd that finally seeing Isabelle's "getting hit" animation has made my week?

Who wouldnt want to hit Isabelle?

 

[Deleted member]

Thinking of it as a matter of court, it can be looked at like this.

In the matter of Leak: Real Vs Fake
You are in court today based on statements made 1 month ago under the name '************* Leaker' on 4chan. How do you plead?
Claimant: *Says nothing* pushes forth picture showing assembly area, a banner, and Grinch merchandise

Jury: *inspects photos* Finds the characters, researches claims, finds links, puts together case themselves without Claimant saying anything (all of which should have been done by the leaker himself)

Prosecution: Your honor, we find the claimant's claims dubious due to testimony from these witnesses (found throughout the past 50 pages)

Judge: *looking to leaker* "Your response?"

Claimant: *Crickets chirping*

We're at a point now we're things are at a standstill. Evidence has been provided on multiple fronts for why it could be fake, but so far, nothing new beyond has been given in its defense. The only thing keeping it alive in this case is us, the 'jury', which shouldn't count as none of us can provide actual proof in either way. So far, insiders and actual companies have given us info 'Against'. Nobody legitimate has given anything past the initial leak 'For'.

 

[Orchestrafanboy19]

The leaker might as well change their name to Helmut Zemo because they started a civil war in the Smash community.

 

[osby]

Who wouldnt want to hit Isabelle?

Nice bait, but I just ate.

or this is a joke and I'm an idiot

 

[KMDP]

Whoops 2.0! Had that in my head, but forgot to add it. I'm Team Neutral right now TBH.

It's fine!

I am, and shall remain, "cautiously optimistic".

I'd be lying if I claimed I didn't have a vested interest in the leak being real (Isaac has been my number one wanted character since Smash 4, technically earlier but, you know, Brawl), but I'm not going to throw a fit if the leak ends up being fake.

Does he doubt them?
When I was watching his video earlier, I thought he made it particularly clear that he trusted the source fully.

That was the impression I got as well.

It was essentially "I had no reason to believe them until they proved who they were, and now I do." or something to that effect.

Thank you! It really does get aggravating when people misuse the words "proof" and "evidence", but I'd rather not turn it into an epistemological discussion, so for me, I re-frame it in terms of evidence because it's much easier to talk in terms of "what side has the evidence" rather than "which side needs to prove" what, except in case like it has been mentioned, where the quality of the evidence itself is in question (a case we have here).

I'm willing to share the evidence for its veracity--though P Paperchampion23 did a good job there. And I'm willing to examine the evidence brought on by those thinking it's false--even if it's just "clouds". But, I will not get into an argument over "who's job it is to prove what".

Honestly, people have done a lot to prove whether or not the leak is real, but the *spooky voice* insiders keep moving the goalposts.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

HAAAAAAARD disagree,

The discussion so far for Grinch leak has been extremely mature and respectful, and not just by forum standards.

ESRB was a ****ing WARZONE.

You just created a case and point of Everyone hating or disagreeing with eachother

I know the esrb was a war zone as well I was about 16 when that happened I didn't even realize at the age of how immature everyone was being

 

[doomedtacox]

View attachment 171967

If you want to ignore the hard evidence presented by Spawn Wave, the Resetera mod team, and Nintendo Life's Alec, who have been proven multiple times to have actual insider information, alongside multiple other proven insiders who have proven insider sources that have occasionally been wrong in favor of a single source and a 4chan text leak be my guest. But don't be surprised if its fake.

"Hard evidence"? I've seen spawn waves video and there is absolutely no hard evidence.