Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheSpitefulWolf]

Are they not? I think Smash people are a little bit too conservative with their definition of the clone. Even Luigi is a clone, technically. It's not a bad thing, and it doesn't mean they have to play the same at all or make them lesser.

Just about every move Wolf does is a tweaked Fox one. Same with Lucas and Luigi (aside from Luigi's side-B, and down-B that Mario changed to F.L.U.D.D)


I would genuinely love a completely redesigned Young Link with masks from Majora's Mask and other items.

I think Young Link as he stands is just way too similar to Toon Link to be a good addition to the roster without an overhaul.

lucina and dp got in and all they have are literal number adjustments, their animations are almost 1:1 aside from taunts

yinks and pichu ain't far off.

actually realtalk was brawl most decloned in the series? falco got luigified a bit and wolf was barely a clone, ganon got separated further, and luigi was luigi

 

[Morbi]

Definitely Banjo-Kazooie for me too.

I don’t see them coming in, but if they added in Crash and Banjo I’d go nuts. I do think Rayman or a Rabbid is the most likely though, and are the only third party newcomers where I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see one make it in.

They could even do both, at the same time, Rayman who uses the Rabbids. That would be better than the alternative, both making it in! Dun dun dun.

Are they not? I think Smash people are a little bit too conservative with their definition of the clone. Even Luigi is a clone, technically. It's not a bad thing, and it doesn't mean they have to play the same at all or make them lesser.

Just about every move Wolf does is a tweaked Fox one. Same with Lucas and Luigi (aside from Luigi's side-B, and down-B that Mario changed to F.L.U.D.D)


I would genuinely love a completely redesigned Young Link with masks from Majora's Mask and other items.

I think Young Link as he stands is just way too similar to Toon Link to be a good addition to the roster without an overhaul.

They are pseudo-clones. But definitely not clones. Like, people who call them clones are the ones warping the definition.

Beyond that, Young Link with Mask's is genuinely my top pick of all time (has been since Melee where I unlocked him and wondered if they added just Deku Link or all three). It is just that time has passed.

 

[Lyndis_]

Specials =/= the whole moveset

It still applies to a lesser extent.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Specials =/= the whole moveset

Pretty much a good summary of Wolf's clone status

Overall clone score = 0.5/25 = 2%

Additional notes: For the misc. score, Wolf has his own animations, and considerably different physics from Fox. A 0 is what is appropriate here.

For other notes, I really don't see why people would see these two as semi-clones, much less clones. Wolf's neutral and up specials, while they have identical names, their animation/appearance/functioning are vastly different from Fox's equivalent. Wolf's Blaster shoots one large laser that is not similar looking to Fox's, while Wolf's blaster can not shoot rapidly, and it produces a melee hitbox at the blaster itself. Fire Wolf, while similar in operation, has a different animation that involves no Fire, Wolf using a Jet Pack to get to his location, no charge up time, and is a kick instead of charge. For Wolf Flash, it is similar in operation, but when you get down to it, its animation/appearance differs, and it's functions considerably different from Fox Illusion (travels diagonally instead of horizontally, has a distinct sour spot in the initial attack, and a distinct sweet spot meteor smash at the end of the attack, and it can clip through stages as well).

 

[JamesDNaux]

Young Link never went anywhere. Toon Link is Young Link. You may as well start asking for TP Link now that we have BotW Link.

Haven't people been wanting the Galaxy Spin to replace the Cape for ages now?

First I've heard of it.

 

[Cosmic77]

That's exactly what happen to Mario's Down B in the first place, which is how we got FLUDD.

Yes, and that's also what helped Luigi further differentiate himself from Mario.

F.L.U.D.D. is completely original to Mario, and it's certainly not broken or OP by any means. What reason do we have to drop F.L.U.D.D. besides, "Odyssey is new and cool, so let's replace the lamest special in Mario's moveset."?

 

[Starcutter]

if Mega Man AND Ryu both come back, I could see another Capcom character getting in, probably Amaterasu or Phoenix Wright.

(I hope to god it's Phoenix, but Ammy would be cool too.)

 

[True Blue Warrior]

if Mega Man AND Ryu both come back, I could see another Capcom character getting in, probably Amaterasu or Phoenix Wright.

(I hope to god it's Phoenix, but Ammy would be cool too.)

If Ryu comes back and Heihachi is a newcomer, we could have an interesting match-up.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I would honestly like to see Kirby drastically changed.
For one, and this one wont be popular with everyone, I'd like to see him get an elemental move from each character, just like in his game.
He can keep the unique hats, because that is fun, but I think he would fight a lot better if his moveset were adjusted to more fully incorporate a lower set of specials. Perhaps ten options from his series, and each character falls into one of those ten types.

Though... this is similar to how I would see Eevee as playable.

 

[Burruni]

3rd Parties?
Expect Crash. Want Shantae.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Nice to see people still immediately assume you dislike something because you criticize said thing on the internet.

Anyhow...

Most wanted 3rd party newcomer?
Can't decide between Crash, Simon Belmont and Bomberman.

EDIT: Never mind. Somehow I forgot about banjo & kazooie. I make them my most wanted newcomers. Though they have less chance than the aforementioned three.

Rabbid Mario

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yes, and that's also what helped Luigi further differentiate himself from Mario.

F.L.U.D.D. is completely original to Mario, and it's certainly not broken or OP by any means. What reason do we have to drop F.L.U.D.D. besides, "Odyssey is new and cool, so let's replace the lamest special in Mario's moveset."?

And is it not even weirder for Luigi to be more alike to Doc than to Mario?
Updating Mario would make him feel like the current character, which is every reason to do it.
The original characters never got the attention that the current characters have gotten with the technological upgrades.
Would be nice to see Nintendo's characters do what Nintendo's characters do best: change with the changing times.

 

[Morbi]

Young Link never went anywhere. Toon Link is Young Link. You may as well start asking for TP Link now that we have BotW Link.


First I've heard of it.

No, they literally play differently, mainly dropping my precious Fire Arrows, but the physics, especially on aerials (and an entirely different back-air), makes the character function different. The taunt is gone too, just to further emphasize that.

Beyond that, even if they were exactly the same, I want to play as Young Link from OoT, not Toon Link from WW... And others.

But yeah, it is not likely to happen BECAUSE of Toon Link. He definitely went somewhere though and the comparison to Twilight Princess is not quite on par with this situation either. It is like having an analogy about cats and dogs apply to pigs and cows. It is like, close enough I guess, but it purposely misses the point of the discussion.

 

[SlickWylde]

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd love Dr. Robotnik (NO, NOT STUPID EGGMAN!! >) ) as a third party character. I'd love another mech fighter. I mean, I'd even take him as a heavier clone of Bowser Jr. That would be awesome! I don't think it'll happen though :'(

 

[A Distant Demon]

3rd Party wants?

Edea Lee. I loooooove me some Bravely Default (technically the article is for Tiz, but they all have the same moves anyway).

Crash would be pretty cool too. . .or Banjo. . .or Rayman. . .or Master Chief.

 

[Starcutter]

I would honestly like to see Kirby drastically changed.
For one, and this one wont be popular with everyone, I'd like to see him get an elemental move from each character, just like in his game.
He can keep the unique hats, because that is fun, but I think he would fight a lot better if his moveset were adjusted to more fully incorporate a lower set of specials. Perhaps ten options from his series, and each character falls into one of those ten types.

Though... this is similar to how I would see Eevee as playable.

I'm pretty sure many character's neutral Bs are what they are because they have kirby in mind. For example:

Shiek = Ninja
Bowser/Charizard = Fire
Rob = Laser

etc.

 

[Hinata]

3rd party character? Phoenix Wright. All day, every day. I'll support his inclusion for every Smash game until he gets in.

 

[AlphaSSB]

Just about every move Wolf does is a tweaked Fox one.

Comparing Wolf for Brawl Fox, the only moves they have that are copied would be Fox's Pummel, Back Aerial, Up Special, Down Special, and Final Smash.

Neutral Special and Side Specials are about half-copies. Wolf's Neutral Special cannot be rapid fired and also has an opening attack with the bayonet, making it functionally different, though is still a gunshot from a futuristic blaster. Wolf's Side Special is diagonal with a meteor smash at the end, but is still a sideways dash.

The rest of his moveset is unique.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

3rd Party wants?

Edea Lee. I loooooove me some Bravely Default (technically the article is for Tiz, but they all have the same moves anyway).

Crash would be pretty cool too. . .or Banjo. . .or Rayman. . .or Master Chief.

Agnes is probably my second-most wanted third party, discovered the Bravely series about a year ago and would love her to make the cut. Plus, Nintendo needed to step in to publish the first game and iirc the second game in America, so it at least has that going for it.

Ideally, I'd make the six characters that were playable all across the franchise as Koopaling-style alts of each other, getting their own announcer calls, voice clips and such.

 

[AadmM]

Wonder Red is my third-party pick.

That game needs all the attention it can get. But Bayonetta's presence makes him highly unlikely, heh.

 

[MasterofMonster]

Lyndis_
I mean, look at any comparison video of Wolf vs Fox, literally none of their moves are the same. Landmaster is, but all his Normal moves aside from maybe his back air are completely unique to Wolf, and while his specials are similar, only the down special really works the same. His neutral Special is only similar in that it shoots a projectile. Luigi is what I'd call a semi-clone, but Wolf is nowhere near what could logically be called a 'clone', unless the fact that he is a space mammal = clone.

Wolf is obviously a Lucario clone. I mean, think about it - they both have a neutral B projectile, a multi-directional recovery move with a brief start-up, a "gett off me" down B defensive move and they are humanoid canines. They are also next to each other on the Brawl CSS.

They also both have ears and are both characters in Smash, which is VERY suspicious to me.

 

[JamesDNaux]

No, they literally play differently, mainly dropping my precious Fire Arrows, but the physics, especially on aerials (and an entirely different back-air), makes the character function different. The taunt is gone too, just to further emphasize that.

Beyond that, even if they were exactly the same, I want to play as Young Link from OoT, not Toon Link from WW... And others.

But yeah, it is not likely to happen BECAUSE of Toon Link. He definitely went somewhere though and the comparison to Twilight Princess is not quite on par with this situation either. It is like having an analogy about cats and dogs apply to pigs and cows. It is like, close enough I guess, but it purposely misses the point of the discussion.

The differences between Y Link and Tink are the same as the differences between Link and Link between the same games. Link no longer had his stabbing move either, his boomerang changed, etc.

So yes, they are the same character. Sure you might want to play as Link from OoT, but it's the same as me wanting to play as Link from TP, they're both gone now, but still there in a sense. It's the same character overall.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Wonder Red is my third-party pick.

That game needs all the attention it can get. But Bayonetta's presence makes him highly unlikely, heh.

Jokes on you he's a Nintendo character

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Specials =/= the whole moveset

A clone =/= copy

When I see Wolf fight, I still think "Oh, he's based on Fox." AKA, a clone character

 

[?????????????]

Geno
- Serious question: Why do people want him? I've never played the game, but he always just struck me as a random side character in one old game that Nintendo doesn't even have the rights to. What's the appeal?

As a character, to me, he felt like the first thing in the Mario series relating to a "greater lore." His presence and dialogue brings up the idea of the stars being something supernatural and "deity-like," rather than just a power up.

And then, on top of that, he's got some real fun tricks for a moveset. Bullet fingers, elbow bombshells, rocket hands, machine gun arms, laser cannon mouth, transforming INTO a cannon, magic blasts... it's a fun concept.

Also, I LOVE Super Mario RPG. It's super good.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Wonder Red is my third-party pick.

That game needs all the attention it can get. But Bayonetta's presence makes him highly unlikely, heh.

Wonder Red is first party
EDIT beat like a gethjerk

 

[TimidKitsune129]

Wolf's move-set is an amalgamation of various character's moves.

I didn't even notice a lot of his moves were borrowed until RelaxAlax made a video talking about it at one point.

Spoiler

 

[Robert of Normandy]

M most wanted 3rd party character is anyone from a Falcom game, but that'll never happen, so...

Honestly compared to when Smash 4 was announced I find myself kinda disinterested in advocating for specific newcomers. Probably this also has something to do with my gaming interests outside of FE drifting away from Nintendo. Smash 4' s roster generally filled most of my major desires left, so as far as potential newcomers IvI' got more of a mindset of "I wonder who they'll add" rather than rooting for anyone in particular.

 

[GaroMaster]

Uh... how about we segway into most wanted new third party characters?

Rayman is mine. Most wanted character overall this time for me. I'd also love to see Simon Belmont.

Rayman is without a doubt my #1 most wanted character period, ahead of characters such as Banjo, K. Rool, and Snake.
He's the whole reason why I even decided to make an account on Smashboards. I wanted him before, but seeing the initial reactions to the Rayman leak made me realize that it maybe wasn't such a crazy thing to ask for. Then, when the Ballot came around, I actually asked people at my school to vote for him. Good times. XD.
Still remember playing the Dreamcast and N64 versions of Rayman 2 growing up. Origins and Legends are modern classics, too.
Needless to say, Rayman in Smash 5 would be dream come true.

 

[Morbi]

The differences between Y Link and Tink are the same as the differences between Link and Link between the same games. Link no longer had his stabbing move either, his boomerang changed, etc.

So yes, they are the same character. Sure you might want to play as Link from OoT, but it's the same as me wanting to play as Link from TP, they're both gone now, but still there in a sense. It's the same character overall.

The move-set differences are the same; however, the properties of the character are different and they kept the core of his character. That is what I meant. If anything, post Smash 4, Link is probably more different, in regard to his move-set, than Young Link to Toon Link. But again, that was not really the core issue. That was just to point out that they are objectively different.

Like, here is the rub. If you load up the match, the announcer screams "Young Link" or "Toon Link." If you do the same, you guessed it, Link, Link. One is an evolution, the other was replaced. It is a subtle difference, sure. But a difference nevertheless. They could put in a Twilight Princess costume. Can they put in a Young Link costume? I guess. It would probably look like a mod, though. It would be weird because of the inherent differences.

 

[Lukingordex]

3rd Party wants?

Edea Lee. I loooooove me some Bravely Default (technically the article is for Tiz, but they all have the same moves anyway).

Crash would be pretty cool too. . .or Banjo. . .or Rayman. . .or Master Chief.

Crash and Bomberman.

 

[MSmariosonic]

The differences between Y Link and Tink are the same as the differences between Link and Link between the same games. Link no longer had his stabbing move either, his boomerang changed, etc.

So yes, they are the same character. Sure you might want to play as Link from OoT, but it's the same as me wanting to play as Link from TP, they're both gone now, but still there in a sense. It's the same character overall.

I still feel like Tink and Yink are entirely different characters. Hardly anyone calls Toon Link Young Link and vice versa. They are treated in HW as separate characters too. Though it is obvious that Toon replaced Young Link.

 

[Deleted member]

Wonder-Red is definitely my most wanted character. Just him being in Smash would be enough to give his game a second chance.
Besides, the sheer amount of stuff you can do with his moveset is incredible, not to mention a Final Smash which could only be either "Diplomacy has failed!" or "Mash A to Protect the Earth" and both would be incredibly hype.

 

[So_many_mails]

My Third Party Character has to be Layton. What I wouldn't give to have him in.

 

[Morbi]

Wonder-Red is definitely my most wanted character. Just him being in Smash would be enough to give his game a second chance.
Besides, the sheer amount of stuff you can do with his moveset is incredible, not to mention a Final Smash which could only be either "Diplomacy has failed!" or "Mash A to Protect the Earth" and both would be incredibly hype.

I always wanted to play his game, I was just waiting to see if he was included in Smash. That never happened, so I never played it. That being said, if he did get revealed, I would. I just feel as though he would have been more ideal back then.

 

[?????????????]

Man...I TRIED playing Wonderful 101. I like the concept, I like the characters, I just...didn't like the execution. The game felt clunky and hard to control for me.

I'd love to see it get another chance.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

I'd honestly rather have less 3rd Parties if we can (though Sonic, Megaman, and even Pac-Man fit on the starting roster very nicely!). Still, they're a thing now, and so ~

My Pick: Shovel Knight
- Never even played the games, but he seems like he has great moveset potential, and has the right retro vibe

 

[Retroend]

For a third party I guess banjo kazooie or crash would be the next best thing.

 

[JamesDNaux]

The move-set differences are the same; however, the properties of the character are different and they kept the core of his character. That is what I meant. If anything, post Smash 4, Link is probably more different, in regard to his move-set, than Young Link to Toon Link. But again, that was not really the core issue. That was just to point out that they are objectively different.

Like, here is the rub. If you load up the match, the announcer screams "Young Link" or "Toon Link." If you do the same, you guessed it, Link, Link. One is an evolution, the other was replaced. It is a subtle difference, sure. But a difference nevertheless. They could put in a Twilight Princess costume. Can they put in a Young Link costume? I guess. It would probably look like a mod, though. It would be weird because of the inherent differences.

I still feel like Tink and Yink are entirely different characters. Hardly anyone calls Toon Link Young Link and vice versa. They are treated in HW as separate characters too. Though it is obvious that Toon replaced Young Link.

They are different in name, but the same in execution. Young Link got in Smash because Sakurai wanted a younger Link, Toon Link is the natural evolution of that. I'm not trying to say they are exactly the same character, but that they fulfill the same function within the context of Smash. Every Link is a completely different character from any other Link, but within Smash there is an "adult" Link and a "child" Link as a concept, so while in theory we have lost a few Links, in practice, we've lost none.

I'm not saying people are wrong for wanting Young Link, just that it's a fruitless endeavor as he never really went anywhere. Just the same as anyone who misses OoT Link over TP Link, just the same as I'll miss TP Link with BotW Link on the way.

Though I'll give you one point, it would in fact not work to put a Young Link costume over Toon Link due to their proportional differences. But I don't think that's much of a point when regular Link has never had a previous Link as a costume either.

 

[Morbi]

They are different in name, but the same in execution. Young Link got in Smash because Sakurai wanted a younger Link, Toon Link is the natural evolution of that. I'm not trying to say they are exactly the same character, but that they fulfill the same function within the context of Smash. Every Link is a completely different character from any other Link, but within Smash there is an "adult" Link and a "child" Link as a concept, so while in theory we have lost a few Links, in practice, we've lost none.

I'm not saying people are wrong for wanting Young Link, just that it's a fruitless endeavor as he never really went anywhere. Just the same as anyone who misses OoT Link over TP Link, just the same as I'll miss TP Link with BotW Link on the way.

Though I'll give you one point, it would in fact not work to put a Young Link costume over Toon Link due to their proportional differences. But I don't think that's much of a point when regular Link has never had a previous Link as a costume either.

I never denied that they did not function the same. I even went out of my way to assert such, same as the other guy you are replying to. So, at this point, I am not really sure what you are trying to say, honestly.

He did. Objectively. Factually. In reality.