Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[xzx]

This is actually the perfect example to bring up this:

If you don't have the time to watch it's basically a syndrome for all trash characters to have "potential" or "stuff they can do" but to never actually be able to actually capitalize on that. People will swear up and down of a character's potential, for the game's entire lifespan before hindsight can say "yeah. He was bad."

So true. This was basically every Pac-Main when I told them the character was ass. (Even non-Pac-Mains said he had "potential" and it was sickening to argue with them since they couldn't handle logic and truth...)

 

[KingofKoopas]

So with Ken basically as a shoo-in this is something i need to get off my chest...

I got a theory (no it isnt about boxes) that at some point in development of Street Fighter 2, Ken and Guile's themes were swapped. Now i know this is blasphemous with Guile's theme being a sacred meme but think about it for a sec.

If you listen to Ken's theme back to back with Cheap Trick's Mighty Wings from the Top Gun soundtrack, the resemblence is uncanny.

Guile is a major in the United States Air Force. Ken is a civilian who had training under a japanese martial arts master. (plus guiles theme sounds rather hot blooded which i always felt fit Ken alot more)

Here listen for yourself

 

[Deleted member]

I will fight you for having an opinion... in Smash!

Did you not see that sick set up with the cannonball?

Also the Crown might actually have set ups.

The big issue with the Blunderbuss is that it seems like you automatically go into sucking up the cannonball, and that sounds awful.

So with Ken basically as a shoo-in this is something i need to get off my chest...

I got a theory (no it isnt about boxes) that at some point in development of Street Fighter 2, Ken and Guile's themes were swapped. Now i know this is blasphemous with Guile's theme being a sacred meme but think about it for a sec.

If you listen to Ken's theme back to back with Cheap Trick's Mighty Wings from the Top Gun soundtrack, the resemblence is uncanny.

Guile is a major in the United States Air Force. Ken is a civilian who had training under a japanese martial arts master. (plus guiles theme sounds rather hot blooded which i always felt fit Ken alot more)

Here listen for yourself

So you're telling me that had this supposed switch not occurred, we would've had Guile's Theme (as Ken's Theme) in Smash 4?

 

[KingofKoopas]

So you're telling me that had this supposed switch not occurred, we would've had Guile's Theme (as Ken's Theme) in Smash 4? Ah well, with potentially 29 unconfirmed Street Fighter tracks, there's hope for this time.

Assuming it isn't in the game anyway despite no Playable Guile, yes. And it would make all our heads explode.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So with Ken basically as a shoo-in this is something i need to get off my chest...

I got a theory (no it isnt about boxes) that at some point in development of Street Fighter 2, Ken and Guile's themes were swapped. Now i know this is blasphemous with Guile's theme being a sacred meme but think about it for a sec.

If you listen to Ken's theme back to back with Cheap Trick's Mighty Wings from the Top Gun soundtrack, the resemblence is uncanny.

Guile is a major in the United States Air Force. Ken is a civilian who had training under a japanese martial arts master. (plus guiles theme sounds rather hot blooded which i always felt fit Ken alot more)

Here listen for yourself

You know what I'm impressed, I thought this franchise's OST couldn't be more hilarious after the composer went "lol yeah I know how to compose songs" to Capcom when she had no experience or education in the field iirc

 

[Idon]

Anyway, speaking of potential, Ike mains take a look at this.

I don't wanna get my hopes up, but Ike is looking pretty POWERFUL in Ult.

 

[Pazzo.]

The Year is 2018.

Smash has been canceled by Korean Bots. Sakurai in desperation released Smash R.O.B Ultimate, where the game is filled with 70 versions of R.O.B.

All hope is lost.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

The big issue with the Blunderbuss is that it seems like you automatically go into sucking up the cannonball, and that sounds awful.


So you're telling me that had this supposed switch not occurred, we would've had Guile's Theme (as Ken's Theme) in Smash 4?

Maybe... But assuming Street Fighter has 30+ tracks now, I wouldn't be surprised If one of them is a glorious remix of Guile's theme
Otherwise, it would be pretty upsetting

 

[Idon]

The Year is 2018.

Smash has been canceled by Korean Bots. Sakurai in desperation released Smash R.O.B Ultimate, where the game is filled with 70 versions of R.O.B.

All hope is lost.

DAMN THOSE MECHON.
I'LL SCRAP EVERY LAST ONE OF EM.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Maybe... But assuming Street Fighter has 30+ tracks now, I wouldn't be surprised If one of them is a glorious remix of Guile's theme

Nope they're all renditions of Ryu, Ken and Vega's themes

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe... But assuming Street Fighter has 30+ tracks now, I wouldn't be surprised If one of them is a glorious remix of Guile's theme
Otherwise, it would be pretty upsetting

I'm fully expecting Guile's Theme this time. There's at least 29 unconfirmed Street Fighter tracks. We gotta get Guile's Theme and Volcanic Rim in there. Unless...

Nope they're all renditions of Ryu, Ken and Vega's themes

the darkest timeline happens.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Re: Ridley/K.rool talk

Ridley will get destroyed against any Swordman/combo heavy Characters. I can't wait to see the poor dragon vs Cloud/Marth/Ryu He will be a character that reward patience and smart play..

K.rool just look unoriginal as **** for me. Like...I look at his kit and I'm..."meh"

I think while K. Rool does not have anything that very clearly sets him apart from the rest (a lot of the things he brings to the table are basically things that have been done, but with slight twists and now on a heavy weight), it's also refreshing to get a newcomer who's moveset is just based on what just makes sense for him and nothing crazy beyond that, it feels like he was included for the sake of the character rather than a gameplay concept. Not that it's a bad thing some characters get in purely because of moveset potential, but it's nice to get something more along the lines of a Brawl-style newcomer once in a while.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think while K. Rool does not have anything that very clearly sets him apart from the rest (a lot of the things he brings to the table are basically things that have been done, but with slight twists and now on a heavy weight), it's also refreshing to get a newcomer who's moveset is just based on what just makes sense for him and nothing crazy beyond that, it feels like he was included for the sake of the character rather than a gameplay concept. Not that it's a bad thing some characters get in purely because of moveset potential, but it's nice to get something more along the lines of a Brawl-style newcomer once in a while.

Yeah their names are Belmont Boys, Ridley and Corrin

 

[Gyrom8]

The Year is 2018.

Smash has been canceled by Korean Bots. Sakurai in desperation released Smash R.O.B Ultimate, where the game is filled with 70 versions of R.O.B.

All hope is lost.

An all-ROB roster? Sign me up

 

[Union of Darkness]

I think people are underestimating Ridley and especially K.Rool. We haven't had big bodies with projectile options before. And no I don't count Dedede because Gordo is basically trash. Donkey Kong is also looking fairly scary with his increased speed.

Ganondorf is probably still rubbish though.

 

[RandomAce]

K.rool just look unoriginal as **** for me. Like...I look at his kit and I'm..."meh"

Yeah, I noticed.

The thing King K. Rool has going for him was that he is in his own unique archetype. He is the only heavy character to have a lot of emphasis on projectiles to start/do/end combos, which is probably what made him stand out in that sense.

 

[EnthusedPanda]

Wait.. are we suddenly discussing how K. Rool lacks moveset potential?

Revisionist histories, I tell ya..

 

[Nekoo]

Wait.. are we suddenly discussing how K. Rool lacks moveset potential?

Revisionist histories, I tell ya..

>Revisionist history
>When people just say that what we have is nowhere near close the MUH UNLIMITED MOVESET his fanbase was saying

No one said he had no potential. The contrary, we just say that what we got was a underwhelming

 

[osby]

I think while K. Rool does not have anything that very clearly sets him apart from the rest (a lot of the things he brings to the table are basically things that have been done, but with slight twists and now on a heavy weight), it's also refreshing to get a newcomer who's moveset is just based on what just makes sense for him and nothing crazy beyond that, it feels like he was included for the sake of the character rather than a gameplay concept. Not that it's a bad thing some characters get in purely because of moveset potential, but it's nice to get something more along the lines of a Brawl-style newcomer once in a while.

I mean Ridley and Belmonts don't have anything crazy shoehorned into them and still does unique stuff. K.Rool is just "he did those three things in his boss fights"+counter because why not.

He'll probably have a unique play style though.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

I think while K. Rool does not have anything that very clearly sets him apart from the rest (a lot of the things he brings to the table are basically things that have been done, but with slight twists and now on a heavy weight), it's also refreshing to get a newcomer who's moveset is just based on what just makes sense for him and nothing crazy beyond that, it feels like he was included for the sake of the character rather than a gameplay concept. Not that it's a bad thing some characters get in purely because of moveset potential, but it's nice to get something more along the lines of a Brawl-style newcomer once in a while.

Couldn't agree more with this. K.Rool while COULD'VE had a more unique moveset if Sakurai included more moves from the source material but he didn't feel the need to do that instead K.Rool was added because the character itself was highly requested and frankly long overdue at this point anyway. Besides personally I prefer the more standard movesets they are easier for me to grab and focus on. Not every character has to have a unique gimmick. That was one of the problems I had with Smash 4's characters besides a LOT of them being blatant advertisements or headline seeking 3rd parties they TRIED a little too hard to make the characters unique which made a lot of them too hard to master for me personally. I don't care about switching monado arts, powering up a limit break, using unique button imputs for a slightly stronger attack..I just want to relax and Smash.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm fully expecting Guile's Theme this time. There's at least 29 unconfirmed Street Fighter tracks. We gotta get Guile's Theme and Volcanic Rim in there. Unless...

the darkest timeline happens.

I am worried that they filled up the SF song selection with just original/Super/remixed versions of SF2 songs.

 

[Untouch]

The only thing I dislike about K Rool is how his cannonballs don't fall to the ground and become spiked.

 

[Idon]

Honestly I'd rather characters be solid and faithful to their appearances than giving K Rool something stupid for the sake of originality like the Monado arts or Limit Break, or whatever.

 

[Deleted member]

I am worried that they filled up the SF song selection with just original/Super/remixed versions of SF2 songs.

This would also be disappointing, but at least we'd get the Guile and Chun-Li themes this way.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think people are underestimating K.Rool's Crown Throw here. Yeah it has it's downsides that we've all discussed it's weaknesses, but the way it comes back just seems so useful to me. It seems like a good option coverage move, especially catching rolls and ledge trapping. It also seems to be possible to Smash throw it, so it has that extra flexibility as well. Perhaps it'll even be possible to use it to cover approaches. I don't think we should be dismissing it as "pointless and gimmicky" like the blunderbuss (which also could still be better then we think if the second part can be canceled).

Re: Ridley/K.rool talk

Ridley will get destroyed against any Swordman/combo heavy Characters. I can't wait to see the poor dragon vs Cloud/Marth/Ryu He will be a character that reward patience and smart play..

K.rool just look unoriginal as **** for me. Like...I look at his kit and I'm..."meh"

As a heavyweight dragon player myself, I think Cloud and Marth are a pain, but if you're really patient and can play a bait and punish game with them, you can work past their disjoints. Ryu is also dangerous, but he can be out ranged, so again, he can be worked around with slow careful play.

It's the likes of Sheik and Zero Suit Samus I'm concerned for. It's hard to play a slow, patient game against a character with great mobility and frame data. Those are characters who control the pace of the match and, if they don't want to give Riddles breathing room, they don't have to. You have to anticipate their movements and beat them out before they even make them, because playing on reaction is goshdang near impossible with those two.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

A day where I'm reminded K.Rool fans moaning about a character with a counter and thar K.Rool could provide more and ultimately get Counter himself is a good day tbh

 

[EnthusedPanda]

>Revisionist history
>When people just say that what we have is nowhere near close the MUH UNLIMITED MOVESET his fanbase was saying

No one said he had no potential. The contrary, we just say that what we got was a underwhelming

We don't even have an idea of all his moves, let alone a consensus on how they all work. Maybe revisionist isn't the proper term, but maybe it's best to reserve judgment until we have an informed opinion on things? Most of the pessimism is based on assumptions, it seems.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think people are underestimating K.Rool's Crown Throw here. Yeah it has it's downsides that we've all discussed it's weaknesses, but the way it comes back just seems so useful to me. It seems like a good option coverage move, especially catching rolls and ledge trapping. It also seems to be possible to Smash throw it, so it has that extra flexibility as well. Perhaps it'll even be possible to use it to cover approaches. I don't think we should be dismissing it as "pointless and gimmicky" like the blunderbuss (which also could still be better then we think if the second part can be canceled).
As a heavyweight dragon player myself, I think Cloud and Marth are a pain, but if you're really patient and can play a bait and punish game with them, you can work past their disjoints. Ryu is also dangerous, but he can be out ranged, so again, he can be worked around with slow careful play.

It's the likes of Sheik and Zero Suit Samus I'm concerned for. It's hard to play a slow, patient game against a character with great mobility and frame data. Those are characters who control the pace of the match and, if they don't want to give Riddles breathing room, they don't have to. You have to anticipate their movements and beat them out before they even make them, because playing on reaction is goshdang near impossible with those two.

I mean the crown is basically the Cross but the Belmonts look like they have dumb ****. Dash cancel to dtilt and dtilt2 not only slides off of ledges but ****ing kills? Lmfao

 

[Nekoo]

We don't even have an idea of all his moves, let alone a consensus on how they all work. Maybe revisionist isn't the proper term, but maybe it's best to reserve judgment until we have an informed opinion on things? Most of the pessimism is based on assumptions, it seems.

Once again. We're not saying his move are competitively trash.
Just that like people said earlier, he's a "simple" Characters. Which isn't bad.
But it's Nowhere near as impressive as the 99999 MOVESET People created here.

Especially after K.Rool got Karma'd with a counter

 

[Heracr055]

Guess I'll see you guys next week since nothing got issued today

 

[Diddy Kong]

Does it scare anyone else at how fast & are?

Did anyone ever get scared at how fast & are?

 

[Untouch]

Once again. We're not saying his move are competitively trash.
Just that like people said earlier, he's a "simple" Characters. Which isn't bad.
But it's Nowhere near as impressive as the 99999 MOVESET People created here.

Especially after K.Rool got Karma'd with a counter

The moveset we got was basically identical to the moveset everyone was predicting though...

 

[Curious Villager]

I guess Sakurai may have been waiting for K.Rool to properly return in a mainline DKC game in case he could give him some unique stuff from there, but his demand became so huge before that point that he just caved in and put him in regardless with the stuff he did in the old games plus the "when in doubt, give them a counter" move.

But that's probably just me...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Did anyone ever get scared at how fast & are?

Bowser actually isn't faster when it comes to running and stuff but just the same as Smash 4. What I AM scared of is how Bowser's gotten some killer buffs, Whirling Fortress is viable an offensive tool? A strong down smash? Super Armour on every tiny hit lasting for ****ing ever? I always run away when one of my friends plays Bowser and that's just for Bowsercide spamming

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

A day where I'm reminded K.Rool fans moaning about a character with a counter and thar K.Rool could provide more and ultimately get Counter himself is a good day tbh

Once again that's not the characters fault but Sakurai for let's be honest here getting lazy with his moveset. Also I'm a HUGE K.Rool fan but I also love Fire Emblem. Do I think there is too many Fire Emblem characters? Yes. Would I cut any of them? No. I LOVE Ike, Roy, and now Chrom. Hell when I play as them I never even use Counter. Tired of the generalization that K.Rool fans ONLY care/want K.Rool and nobody else. I just love Nintendo characters and I couldn't give TWO ****s how they play as long as they're in the game. I'm a huge fan of Wario, Dark Samus, and Ganondorf even though they play NOTHING like how they should and how those 3 are the gold example of "lazy".

 

[P.Kat]

BARELY ANYONE IS
HERE!

SUPER SMASH BROS PENULTIMATE!

 

[EnthusedPanda]

Once again. We're not saying his move are competitively trash.
Just that like people said earlier, he's a "simple" Characters. Which isn't bad.
But it's Nowhere near as impressive as the 99999 MOVESET People created here.

Especially after K.Rool got Karma'd with a counter

I'm frankly not disappointed with what we've seen thus far. It's about what we've expected and more or less lines up with almost all the endless fanboy movesets I've seen, apart from the counter.

I guess I'll ask you this: are you personally let down by his moveset, as we know it? Did any of his potential movesets appeal to you? Do you believe they were "realizable"? Not trying to upset you or anyone, I'm just genuinely curious.

Edit: Yeah it's funny he ended up with a counter but if anything that exhibits short-sightedness from those designing him, not his inherent potential. It's a vexing decision to say the least. You could slap an inappropriate (quote unquote) move on any character and laugh about it endlessly and claim it's ironic, but bottom line that doesn't mean they ever lacked potential. Those who focus on this as some kind of integral point about him lacking potential are either getting some kind of schadenfreude out of diehard fans being upset about their character being misrepresented, or... well, probably just that.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't wait for Beard Isaac to get in with his signature Counter technique!

Y'know, considering Isaac also has unlimited moveset potential or something.

 

[Opossum]

The one thing I wish they would've done with K. Rool was give him those toxic cloud traps from DKC2.

 

[osby]

Once again. We're not saying his move are competitively trash.
Just that like people said earlier, he's a "simple" Characters. Which isn't bad.
But it's Nowhere near as impressive as the 99999 MOVESET People created here.

Especially after K.Rool got Karma'd with a counter

Me, prior to Ultimate: K.Rool sounds like a boring fighter if he's just going to do stuff in his boss fights
K.Rool fans: Oh, but he can do so much unique things, unlike some generic anime swordfighter
Me, now:

I guess Sakurai may have been waiting for K.Rool to properly return in a mainline DKC game in case he could give him some unique stuff from there, but his demand became so huge before that point that he just caved in and put him in regardless with the stuff he did in the old games plus "when in doubt, give them a counter" moves.

But that's probably just me...

I mean, Zelda was pretty interesting thanks to the power of improvisation, even though she doesn't do much in her own games. Taking movesets 1-1 from origin games is a bad idea for NPCs and bosses imo.