Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Swamp Sensei]

OH COME ON, I WOULD'VE WAY PREFERRED LEIF.
GODDAMMIT, WHY DID THE ADVERTISEMENT SMASH OC GET IN.

Because that's been a fake rumor since Melee.

Leif was never actually considered.

 

[Idon]

Lol at people saying Zelda has no recurring characters.

Think again, honey.

Spoiler: In every single game

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'll never give up on my support for Tetra.

And I'm more than willing to lend more support to Skull Kid, too.

I honestly feel pretty good about their chances, at least in comparison to other LoZ candidates.

 

[Danpal65]

Isn't Vaati in a bit of a Geno scenario, or am I wrong?

Every game that Vaati's been in was partly made with Capcom, no?

Four Sword Adventures wasn't developed by Capcom.

 

[RandomAce]

Believe it or not, that's actually not true.

Uhh...Do you have a source for that story? Cause I don’t remember hearing about this at all.

I should look back into it...

I remembered reading about it before somewhere, it seemed plausible. Is Source Gaming still shut down?

 

[Idon]

Because that's been a fake rumor since Melee.

Leif was never actually considered.

Oh, welp.
Still, blech on Roy.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Isn't Vaati in a bit of a Geno scenario, or am I wrong?

Every game that Vaati's been in was partly made with Capcom, no?

Not really because if I remember correctly, Vaati appeared in games Capcom didn't work on. If that was the case though, it's Capcom, Nintendo would get the rights to use Vaati in Smash for giving Capcom an extra scoop of ice cream

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Lol at people saying Zelda has no recurring characters.

Think again, honey.

Spoiler: In every single game

I do hope I'm not the only one here who actually liked Fi.

This is such a nice piece of fanart that I might actually use it as my avatar here after October and Halloween have passed lol

 

[HyruleHero]

Maybe if Zelda actually had a re-occuring character besides the Triforce Trio.



Honestly, I 'get' why Sakurai doesn't pick certain fan favorite Zelda characters... mostly because they'll be in that one game, and never again.



We're most likely never going to have another Zelda game with Midna.

We're most likely never going to have another Zelda game with Ghirahim.

We're most likely never going to have another Zelda game with the 4 Champions.


Etc


The closest thing that can even come close are Skull Kid and Tingle, and Skull Kid just barely, being an NPC/enemy in 2 of his games.



TINGLE is the closest thing to an actual solid Zelda-character with multiple appearances over multiple timelines.




The difference with Fire Emblem is said characters are the protagonist, and Pokemon are Pokemon.

unless you count enemies, there are a plenty of enemies that reoccur through the zelda timeline. This is also the case with races, Gorons, Zora's, Rito, Gerudo and Deku scrubs (not so much as the others though). I would like to see other races represented in smash other than the hylians (and Gerudo ganondorf), a Rito would be cool and so would zoras however the race that has appeared in the most zelda games consistently are the Gorons so I think they deserve a spot.

On the matter of Minish Cap, It my favourite 2D zelda game to say the least. I'd love to see Vaati return and make an appearance in a 3D zelda title so smash could give him the push to reappear. If anything though I think he would make a good Boss character seeing as ganondorf already took beast ganon for his final smash.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh course if Fire Emblem fans had actual taste, we'd all be supporting Owain.

 

[Enchess]

Maybe if Zelda actually had a re-occuring character besides the Triforce Trio.

The closest thing that can even come close are Skull Kid and Tingle

How is Vaati still being forgotten with an active Vaati discussion going on in the same thread...

Vaati has more overall series importance and more appearance than Skull Kid and is actually a main character in his games unlike Tingle (or Impa for that matter).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Master, it seems you're attempting to preform a Wombo Combo, do you need an explanation?

wut

No really what?

 

[Danpal65]

I do hope I'm not the only one here who actually liked Fi.

This is such a nice piece of fanart that I might actually use it as my avatar here after October and Halloween have passed lol

I'm fine with other people liking Fi, but I personally find her existence frustrating and insulting. I have lots of problems with Skyward Sword, especially with the negative impact Demise has on Ganondorf as a character. All Fi does is link every Zelda game to that linear mess even more. For fans of the game it is a neat nod, but to me it just makes me annoyed (like when the sword flashes in BotW).

 

[Idon]

I do hope I'm not the only one here who actually liked Fi.

This is such a nice piece of fanart that I might actually use it as my avatar here after October and Halloween have passed lol

I will take this opinion to my grave.

Fi's a character I firmly believe was ruined only by LoZ's worst era of tutorialization, Skyward Sword's constant reminders.
Had those not existed, I'm sure Fi would've been liked as just a robot that learned to feel emotions, which is always a popular story arc.

 

[Noipoi]

Lol at people saying Zelda has no recurring characters.

Think again, honey.

Spoiler: In every single game

Master, it seems you're attempting to preform a Wombo Combo, do you need an explanation?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh course if Fire Emblem fans had actual taste, we'd all be supporting Owain.

If Fire Emblem fans had taste, there'd be more demand for Echoes content. Also speaking of Fire Emblem I'm a little surprised Intelligent Systems didn't try to make a remake of FE6 on the Switch first due to Roy's Smash popularity

 

[Shroob]

How is Vaati still being forgotten with an active Vaati discussion going on in the same thread...

Vaati has more overall series importance and more appearance than Skull Kid and is actually a main character in his games unlike Tingle (or Impa for that matter).

The fact that Vaati's actually kind of forgettable should really say something.


I never played Four Swords Adventure because, I had one Gameboy and no Link cable, but I did play Minish Cap.

 

[Noipoi]

wut

No really what?

I messed up, my computer was slow and it ruined my joke.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If Fire Emblem fans had taste, there'd be more demand for Echoes content. Also speaking of Fire Emblem I'm a little surprised Intelligent Systems didn't try to make a remake of FE6 on the Switch first due to Roy's Smash popularity

That's probably next.

Gaiden just needed it more cause well...

It was kinda ****.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

How is Vaati still being forgotten with an active Vaati discussion going on in the same thread...

Vaati has more overall series importance and more appearance than Skull Kid and is actually a main character in his games unlike Tingle (or Impa for that matter).

Imo they both deserve being in Smash, along with Tetra and GANON.

EDIT: I also agree that Minish Cap is a masterpiece, but I don't know if it's the best... I'm not sure if Minish Cap or Link's Awakening.
A Link to the Past is cool but well... I think Link's Awakening and Minish Cap have more depth on the emotional and artistic side, A Link to the Past is more superficial on that aspect, it focuses more on the adventure and action.

 

[Enchess]

I love Fi. Was the tutorializing annoying? Absolutely. Was it that much worse than Navi, Tatl, or Midna? Eh, not really. I nearly as annoyed with all of their tutorials. But unlike them, I actually enjoyed Fi as a character (ok, Midna was ok. I wasn't in love with her, but she's ok)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That's probably next.

Gaiden just needed it more cause well...

It was kinda ****.

No, Gaiden needed it more because it's honestly incredibly innovative. Introduced Supports, world map, etc. All stuff the franchise would later use. Also in the original Gaiden Alm did a unique attack animation if he killed the final boss and goddamn is that cool as **** on an NES game

 

[Idon]

If Fire Emblem fans had taste, there'd be more demand for Echoes content. Also speaking of Fire Emblem I'm a little surprised Intelligent Systems didn't try to make a remake of FE6 on the Switch first due to Roy's Smash popularity

I'm surprised they didn't even release a damn virtual console release somewhere when a fan-translation has existed for a decade now.

Like, how are you going to call characters like Roy and Lucas all-stars when
1. No one outside of Japan has played those games
2. If they HAVE played those games, they did so, by your own standards, ILLEGALLY.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Fi was a good character and I'm surprised people still don't like her.

Guess they found her that annoying. I never did.


Worst companion was Navi. Not because of annoyance but blandness.

 

[Enchess]

The fact that Vaati's actually kind of forgettable should really say something.


I never played Four Swords Adventure because, I had one Gameboy and no Link cable, but I did play Minish Cap.

Eh, speak for yourself. I remember Vaati's scenes in Minish Cap better than I remember Ganon in any game other than Ocarina. I like Vaati more too. And Minish Cap isn't even nostalgic for me. I didn't play it till college.

 

[Shroob]

I'm surprised they didn't even release a damn virtual console release somewhere when a fan-translation has existed for a decade now.

Like, how are you going to call characters like Roy and Lucas all-stars when
1. No one outside of Japan has played those games
2. If they HAVE played those games, they did so, by your own standards, ILLEGALLY.

Roy's like Captain Falcon and Jiggs at this point.


He's moreso a Smash character than a character from his own series.


Hell, "Roy's our boy" has even been used in Heroes. The meme's become legit.

 

[NineS]

Fi was a good character and I'm surprised people still don't like her.

Guess they found her that annoying. I never did.


Worst companion was Navi. Not because of annoyance but blandness.

I think most people didn't like Fi for the whole "Master, your battery is dead" thing that came up over and over, and how hand-holdy she could be.
I like her regardless. It'd be interesting to see her in the game as a fighter even though I prefer Skull Kid.

 

[RandomAce]

Believe it or not, that's actually not true.

Yeah you’re right.

Would’ve been cool though.

 

[Shroob]

Eh, speak for yourself. I remember Vaati's scenes in Minish Cap better than I remember Ganon in any game other than Ocarina. I like Vaati more too. And Minish Cap isn't even nostalgic for me. I didn't play it till college.

Damn, I'm gonna have to say yikes here, because Wind Waker made Ganondorf as a character for me.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Fi was a good character and I'm surprised people still don't like her.

Guess they found her that annoying. I never did.


Worst companion was Navi. Not because of annoyance but blandness.

Navi at least wasn't so intrusive all the time and actually helped. Skyward Sword was my first 3D game and I blatantly remember Fi not helping me deal with Skulltulas because 'muh insufficient data'. Navi wouldn't do that

 

[HyruleHero]

I love Fi. Was the tutorializing annoying? Absolutely. Was it that much worse than Navi, Tatl, or Midna? Eh, not really. I nearly as annoyed with all of their tutorials. But unlike them, I actually enjoyed Fi as a character (ok, Midna was ok. I wasn't in love with her, but she's ok)

I mean your only forced to talk to Navi like three times in the whole game (outside of cutscenes) Navi is the perfect guide character, helps the people that don't know whats going on but allows veterans to ignore her. Tatl is just an improvement on Navi by giving the companion a story that can be sympathised with. I think Midna was my least favourite companion just because I didn't like her character - I had a lack of care for her well being and at no point did her character seem to improve. Fi whilst absolutely destroying the pace of Skyward Sword did add a cool backstory and while SS isn't my favourite game I appreciate what they tried.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, as someone who worked on some research projects, I think you are mistaken about what evidence is or isn't. Evidence doesn't have to prove anything. It need only suggest. Even in science, it's more accurate to say theories are shown to be consistent predictors than to say they've been proven irrefutably. You can ALWAYS think of an arbitrary law of physics to satisfy all of our observations while making entirely different predictions. And it is technically possible that every law of physics we know could be false. That doesn't mean we should abandon them for being unproven.

Let me go over what I consider evidence for box theory:

Spoiler: Box theory evidence

-the pattern is clear, and almost entirely consistent. You can argue that the other side is a different pattern, but how realistic is that really? That would imply it's pure coincidence that so many characters fell perfectly in blog order on the visible side. It's possible, but it's also technically possible that Ridley will be cut from Smash because Sakurai changed his mind again.
- the pattern breaks in exactly one spot, which suggests an echo, most likely Ken. This also lines up really nicely with both Verg, who has a track record, and the Ken image leak that last I saw was widely agreed to be real. If we get any confirmation of Ken, that's a prediction box theory made that came true. Really, there aren't many possibilities here, even with the minimum assumption of the unshown characters are on the other side. We have (1) Ken is there suggesting artist knows roster, (2) artist only layed out one side and miscounted on the pattern they were going for, (3) there's a blank spot on the other side for seemingly no reason, (4) the pattern one the visible side is coincidence, which is statistically impossible (which is not the same as actually impossible)
-the bottom row of the visible side is not centered. This creates ugly asymmetry. It's also worth noting that Smash in particular has a fondness for keeping things centered as Shroob has pointing out repeatedly in unrelated debates.
-marketing departments often know secrets of a game early, even before the programmers at the same company, even on the same game. This isn't speculation. I work in game industry. Im going off a combination of my experience and being told by other workers in the industry.

When I take that together, I see a pattern that is statistically impossible to be an accident, so I conclude it is likely intentional. From there, I can conclude the backside is missing a spot in a specific row, indicating either an echo, a mistake, or imo ugly design that's inconsistent with the rest of Smash. I dismiss the ugly design due to inconsistency, so I'm left with a mistake or echo. Now, one of the possible echoes for that spot is Ken, who has a prominent leaker and photo leak supporting this. But it's also worth remembering it doesn't have to be Ken. Basically if Ken is deconfirmed, it takes away evidence for the box, but doesn't provide any evidence against it because the theory does not require Ken, even if Ken supports it.

But here's the thing, if the artist didn't just make a mistake (a possibility I'm not dismissing at all), that means the artist does know at least some of the roster before us and incoorporated this into the box design. Handily, this explains every single blank space on the box and makes the box prettier (subjective) and more symmetrical and inline with normal Smash design (objective).

Thus, I conclude the box is worth using as a predictor. Not putting my faith in it completely. Simply being open to the possibility.

Thank you for the in depth response, I appreciate it. I agree the box can be used, and I believe it should, I just don't think it's the final word just yet.

I'm totally open to the possibility of the box. Most of my issue with believing it'll be 100% in the end comes from me doubting just Ken being saved as the final Echo when they've all been revealed in batches so far. I totally think Incineroar could be the final unique, however, I do think another Echo with Ken is totally possible as well.

 

[Idon]

Damn, I'm gonna have to say yikes here, because Wind Waker made Ganondorf as a character for me.

>When they gave the tyrannical warlord child kidnapper an interesting backstory and personality
me:

He just wanted that wind, man.

 

[NineS]

Am I the only one who wants a Fire Emblem character that can represent the Fire Emblem franchise as a whole?

I mean, the other options aren't bad, but Anna has been in nearly every Fire Emblem game there is. As well as the fact she's not necessarily limited to swords or tomes, and can use all of the above, depending on how you'd want her.
I don't know, I just feel like throwing Anna in as a Fire Emblem rep could add variety, and do more than represent a single Fire Emblem game.

 

[Potato_]

Fi was a good character and I'm surprised people still don't like her.

Guess they found her that annoying. I never did.


Worst companion was Navi. Not because of annoyance but blandness.

I honestly think it's because she came immediately after Midna who had SO much personality. Her robotic tone combined with the handholdy dialogue probably made a lot of people opposed to her.

I'm fine with her as a character. I enjoy her arc and while she isn't my favorite companion I do think she's worthwhile.

IN REGARDS TO SMASH HOWEVER, here's my tierlist for Zelda characters;

-Skull Kid
-Tetra
-WW Ganondorf (with the dual swords and a Puppet Ganon FS)
-Midna
-Ganon
-Ghirahim
-Ravio
-Impa
-Fi
-Vaati

Honestly any of these guys would be hype as hell if they showed up IMO. This is just my preference for them.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Am I the only one who wants a Fire Emblem character that can represent the Fire Emblem franchise as a whole?

I mean, the other options aren't bad, but Anna has been in nearly every Fire Emblem game there is. As well as the fact she's not necessarily limited to swords or tomes, and can use all of the above, depending on how you'd want her.
I don't know, I just feel like throwing Anna in as a Fire Emblem rep could add variety, and do more than represent a single Fire Emblem game.

I still have a moveset of Anna using nearly all weapon types lying around somewhere lol

 

[Enchess]

Damn, I'm gonna have to say yikes here, because Wind Waker made Ganondorf as a character for me.

I like him in Wind Waker, but only remember my general feelings about him and his general personality, no details of scenes. I guess I remember his death scene, but me remembering that doesn't speak to him specifically.

Minish Cap is my favorite story in Zelda (although it's not my favorite game). Vaati was a standout villain and the strongest in the series. Ganon almost never has any personality whatsoever and when he does, it's still pretty generic "I'm evil, that's my motivation". Ocarina stands out more to me because of the Gerudo backstory and his coup.

Edit: I'll throw in a note to show some of my biases: I die a little inside every time Ganon is the villain. I enjoyed Skull Kid, Vaati, Ghirahim, and Yuga all more. Ganon is good, but I think the series is stronger when it tries someone else.

 

[osby]

Am I the only one who wants a Fire Emblem character that can represent the Fire Emblem franchise as a whole?

I mean, the other options aren't bad, but Anna has been in nearly every Fire Emblem game there is. As well as the fact she's not necessarily limited to swords or tomes, and can use all of the above, depending on how you'd want her.
I don't know, I just feel like throwing Anna in as a Fire Emblem rep could add variety, and do more than represent a single Fire Emblem game.

Characters should represent themselves first, not the franchise, especially if they came from one that already has multiple characters. Moveset potential, popularity and importance to their games is also important (like, Anna was never that important for the plot).

That being said, I wouldn't mind Anna, she's fun.

 

[Idon]

Am I the only one who wants a Fire Emblem character that can represent the Fire Emblem franchise as a whole?

I mean, the other options aren't bad, but Anna has been in nearly every Fire Emblem game there is. As well as the fact she's not necessarily limited to swords or tomes, and can use all of the above, depending on how you'd want her.
I don't know, I just feel like throwing Anna in as a Fire Emblem rep could add variety, and do more than represent a single Fire Emblem game.

Oh yeah absolutely. I absolutely adore Anna as some cutthroat saleswoman as a cynical representation into a high-fantasy world.
Like "**** dude, I don't care if you're trying to slay some dragons or whatever, a girl's gotta eat." I would've made her as a master of arms character constantly using every type of weapon, magic, and stave to confuse and overwhelm the enemy. Or maybe given her a gold mechanic where she got paid for beating up people (essentially mugging them) or hundreds of things.

In fact, had I my way with the FE Roster, I would've had the it be:

Marth, obligatory no.1
Anna, the mascot, recurring character, and possible multi-verse level god,
Ike, most popular dude
Lyn, most popular gal
Robin, most popular game

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Am I the only one who wants a Fire Emblem character that can represent the Fire Emblem franchise as a whole?

I mean, the other options aren't bad, but Anna has been in nearly every Fire Emblem game there is. As well as the fact she's not necessarily limited to swords or tomes, and can use all of the above, depending on how you'd want her.
I don't know, I just feel like throwing Anna in as a Fire Emblem rep could add variety, and do more than represent a single Fire Emblem game.

Wait hold up, am I going crazy or does Anna have 6 fingers on her hand in this picture.