Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[ReeseBalaski]

How the ****...

Some people are literally expecting more than 3-4 additions to the game?? Well this officially confirms that either some guys are just trolls or they just wont believe anything until december 7, even if you throw hard facts.

Smash community in a nutshell.

Saying things like this is precisely why people don't care for the Box Theory.

Nothing is proven until Sakurai straight up says it is. The box is not exempt from this.

EDIT: I realize that the box theory isn't mentioned at all in this post. However, I still mean what I say.

 

[Deleted member]

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You literally did not provide any counterarguments to the theory, instead, all you did was ask for evidence that has been said a number of times and say thag because of it it's only a Game Theory™

I didn't give any counter arguments simply because this is something I've debated dozens of times now and I have yet to see anyone effectively argue against anything I or others have said against it. Granted, our debates can't do anything either, but that's what I'm trying to say:

Nothing is fact right now.

To parade our opinions around as the undeniable truth not only stifles discussion in a thread designed around speculation and discussion, but also, IMO, is not correct.

If you are interested in my points against this, here they are:

Spoiler

Let's tackle this one by one.

"The box is clearly designed around a pattern, it can't change"

As I and others have said, yes, there is a seemingly good pattern going on here. However, Music Theory, Blog Theory, Trophy Theory, and literally every other theory has had "patterns" as it''s focal point, but we have no evidence that this is something that cannot change. If you can supply me with some, I will gladly take it, as this is something no one has entertained me on. This pattern is also assuming that there are no characters on the back, either, which is another thing I don't see being talked about at all for some reason.

"It is literally impossible to change the design of the box"

Again, there is no good answer for this other than "Because it can't". Why can't it? What stops it? Because you believe it can't? That is not factual evidence, that is opinion.

"The characters cannot be resized"

This is yet another one no one cares to give me an answer on. The best I've heard is "Because then it would break the theory". So, it's impossible for the theory to be wrong because...reasons, I suppose? The theory has to be right, so it can't be wrong? That's the only argument used against this one.

"The artist(s) clearly knows who's left"

Just like how Music Theory clearly knew who was and wasn't in and only uploaded one song per franchise, yes? If the artists know who's left, then please. answer me this...

Why wasn't Isabelle on the box? To my knowledge, this listing didn't go live until after Isabelle's reveal, did it not? Why would she not be on it, then? Clearly the person knows everyone who's left and what our final reveal schedule is, surely they would know she would need to be on it by now. Even if this point is wrong, it points back to what people saying it can't be redesigned: Isabelle being added later literally proves it can be changed.

Some final points I'll make before wrapping this up...

*Verge has heard of potentially more than Incineroar and Ken. They could be DLC, they could not be. There is nothing that proves it either way right now.

*This is not even an actual box, it is a digital mockup. Key word being mockup, meaning it can, and will, change by release.

*Touting this is as solid as ESRB is really interesting when ESRB had videos, pictures, and multiple corroborated sources. This has ideas from some people on a forum. How on earth is that anything like ESRB? Not trying to be rude, I am legitimately curious about this comparison.

I apologize if I seem too confrontational, that isn't my intention. I just like a good debate, lol.

If you believe the theory, cool. I'm not saying it's impossible. All I'm saying is maybe be open to the idea it's wrong until there's something we can use as evidence to say for certain? That way, discussion about it can be beneficial, rather than a constant game of "yah huh" and "nah uh" on both sides.

 

[Dcas]

I take it you believe in the box theory then?

Box theory could be 50/50, perfectly viable or just a placeholder box which in marketing is a pretty common practice so yeah. I dont believe in it.

I believe we are less than 2 months from release, the game was finished weeks ago and right now they are just QA.
Meaning, in that period we will only get one major reveal, even the creator himself said that they will slow down on reveals.

I mean its all **** and giggles to speculate but i find it funny/shocking some people will refuse proven facts.

 

[Idon]

That's some real Monkey's Paw stuff right there. :|

Oh come on...

Pyra fans will LOVE it.

 

[Enchess]

New Theory Time! -Hero/Villain Theory- (Good guy then Bad guy)

All unique newcomers revealed are in order as Hero's and Villains (Inkling then Ridley then Simon/Richter then K. Rool then Isabelle then...???)

There, I replaced the music theory!

(Credit to Skull Kid Support Thread)

I know it's a joke, but that's a lot weaker than the Music Theory was. The reason the Music Theory was so strongly believed was that there was strong motivation for the blogkeepers to follow that pattern.

A hero vs villain reveal pattern could be a good marketing pattern, but marketing needs to believe consumers would pick up on it. There'd need to be something clever like blue splash on heroes and red on villains. Or any hero vs villain reference at all aside from K Rool trailer.

The blog music didn't need additional support because the motivation was simply showing series diversity, which is accomplished by one song per series. Heroes vs Villains theming is only accomplished if the viewers pick up on it.

 

[Zinith]

I need to get my mind out of the gutter...

I like my gutter, it's comfy...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh come on...

Pyra fans will LOVE it.

But Awakening Celica was a loli.

That's like the polar opposite of Pyra.

 

[Kuon]

I like my gutter, it's comfy...

It is comfy, but just imagine the memes if the next newcomer is a female... Actually, maybe we shouldn't imagine that

 

[7NATOR]

So...Where is the blog post. The music is on the music page, but not on the blog. It's not even updated on twitter. It's been an HOUR after the usualy blog post time
HMMMMMMM

 

[PSIGuy]

Music Theory might be dead, but I was looking at the songs on the site and I've noticed we've not had two songs from the same composer yet.

Maybe the doubling up on FE is more to do with making sure every composer involved gets a song shown off? I'm putting forward Composer Theory; no composer gets more than one track listed as an update. It's... near useless for speculation outside of possibly-involved-composers like Hiroyuki Sawano but still!
Edit: foiled by Hideki Sakamoto. This died even faster than I thought.

 

[Roberk]

Oh come on...

Pyra fans will LOVE it.

It's funny how the Awakening Celica artist designed Pyra, it's almost the exact same design.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Box theory could be 50/50, perfectly viable or just a placeholder box which in marketing is a pretty common practice so yeah. I dont believe in it.

I believe we are less than 2 months from release, the game was finished weeks ago and right now they are just QA.
Meaning, in that period we will only get one major reveal, even the creator himself said to they will slow down on reveals.

I mean its all **** and giggles to speculate but i find it funny/shocking some people will refuse proven facts.

Maybe 4 you could be right about but I honestly do believe in 3 more is possible especially if they want to round out the unique fighters to 70 which would be a perfect number to end on.

 

[KingofKoopas]

Watch that 69 is Medusa appearing as a semi-clone to Palutena.

I can dream...

I hear ya, exact reason why i want Shantae as 69, because screw being mature XP

 

[Kuon]

But Awakening Celica was a loli.

That's like the polar opposite of Pyra.

I was about to argue that Celica is not a loli, but then you said Awakening Celica and...yeah, I can't argue that

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Verge and Box Theory are outright incompatible, especially after Verge endorsed the Hitagi leak with Steve in it.

Actually, it isn't clear if Steve? is DLC or not. So as of now, Verg only has two confirmed base game characters. The Box theory matches with Verge.

 

[papagenos]

Hey cool music theories dead. glad to see anything that bogs down the number of, and which, characters we have left get debunked.

 

[Dcas]

Maybe 4 you could be right about but I honestly do believe in 3 more is possible especially if they want to round out the unique fighters to 70 which would be a perfect number to end on.

And thats fine, for some guys speculation is one of funniest aspect of the cycle but reading some guys here like they are preaching a religion is certainly funny.

 

[Potato_]

A hero vs villain reveal pattern could be a good marketing pattern, but marketing needs to believe consumers would pick up on it. There'd need to be something clever like blue splash on heroes and red on villains. Or any hero vs villain reference at all aside from K Rool trailer.

Not to mention they'd probably have started out the gate with that if it was going to be one of their primary marketing tools. Really the only thing even slightly pointing towards it was K.Rool's trailer.

Saying things like this is precisely why people don't care for the Box Theory.

Nothing is proven until Sakurai straight up says it is. The box is not exempt from this.

To play devil's advocate, Sakurai did say he was spreading out character reveal trailers from now on. This combined with his words at E3 does give some credence to a lower amount of characters, which the Box also supports.

 

[Roberk]

OKAY, BUT FOR REAL;
LOOK AT THIS **** AND TELL ME THIS ISN'T THE HYPEST ANIME GARBAGE YOU'VE SEEN ALL DAY.

Real talk, both Lyn AND Takamaru being disconfirmed at E3 was a serious bummer. Stop being a coward and give us something that isn't a broadsword Sakurai.

 

[Deleted member]

That was kinda boring honestly.

I feel like I've seen the same idea done better.

Bad taste swamp

As I and others have said, yes, there is a seemingly good pattern going on here. However, Music Theory, Blog Theory, Trophy Theory, and literally every other theory has had "patterns" as it''s focal point, but we have no evidence that this is something that cannot change. If you can supply me with some, I will gladly take it, as this is something no one has entertained me on. This pattern is also assuming that there are no characters on the back, either, which is another thing I don't see being talked about at all for some reason.

This argument relies on other theories which are unrelated to the box outside of the word 'theory'

Again, there is no good answer for this other than "Because it can't". Why can't it? What stops it? Because you believe it can't? That is not factual evidence, that is opinion.

Why would you change something that is already set to accomodate the remaining newcomers?

This is yet another one no one cares to give me an answer on. The best I've heard is "Because then it would break the theory". So, it's impossible for the theory to be wrong because...reasons, I suppose? The theory has to be right, so it can't be wrong? That's the only argument used against this one.

See above

Why wasn't Isabelle on the box?

Because she hadn't been revealed. It's that simple.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

But who would she echo?

Robin? Because she also uses magic. Though she’s better off being a semi clone...

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Semi-clone does honestly make a lot more sense. She doesn't exactly fits Robin's proportions or dimensions.

 

[Idon]

That was kinda boring honestly.

I feel like I've seen the same idea done better.

I dunno...

Biiiiiiig thinks.
It's almost like they were... made by the same guy...

That was kinda boring honestly.

I feel like I've seen the same idea done better.

Well, sure that's... an opinion, but it's Naruto's best example of it.
I think my favorite interpretation of it currently is this

 

[monadoboy]

Real talk, both Lyn AND Takamaru being disconfirmed at E3 was a serious bummer. Stop being a coward and give us something that isn't a broadsword Sakurai.

Maybe we can bury Rex and get Jin as DLC

 

[TheMilkmann]

alright what do y'all think:

Spoiler: my totally real leak

View attachment 168979

Not bad!

 

[N3ON]

What are people talking about, the music theory is now dead? Shouldn't the Pokemon track weeks back have done it in?

 

[CosmicQuark]

Actually, it isn't clear if Steve? is DLC or not. So as of now, Verg only has two confirmed base game characters. The Box theory matches with Verge.

Box Theory doesn't directly match Verge--Box Theory says 2 more characters, Verge says at least 3. The only reason I suspect people think the SE rep is DLC--is because of the Box Theory. The reasoning is circular. That doesn't mean the SE rep can't be DLC, it's still consistent with that added assumption--but there's no evidence, unless you assume the Box is true, that the SE rep is DLC.

 

[Lattenzo]

New Theory Time! -Hero/Villain Theory- (Good guy then Bad guy)

All unique newcomers revealed are in order as Hero's and Villains (Inkling then Ridley then Simon/Richter then K. Rool then Isabelle then...???)

There, I replaced the music theory!

(Credit to Skull Kid Support Thread)

Can't believe people are actually believing the Hero/Villain theory. Since when are Isabelle and Inkling heroes? Also the art before the K. Rool trailer proves absolutely nothing about the theme of the game. It was just there to show that there was another villain incoming. I mean who else is more worthy of a spot for a new Metroid character or new Donkey Kong character in Smash? They're not purposely throwing these villains in Smash because they're villains. It's because the fans wanted them. And the basically confirmed next (and MAYBE final) unique character is Incineroar who is kind of a villain so I could be wrong but I mean is this really how people are guessing characters? The roster's basically been confirmed at this point.

Not saying you believe the theory as I obviously don't know that but just putting this out there for those who may believe the theory.

 

[AugustusB]

Well, sure that's... an opinion, but it's Naruto's best example of it.
I think my favorite interpretation of it currently is this

God I love that so much! That is the most satisfying thing to pull off in that game.

 

[Untouch]

What are people talking about, the music theory is now dead? Shouldn't the Pokemon track weeks back have done it in?

Yes, it SHOULD have, but people still hung onto a thread of hope.

 

[Idon]

God I love that so much! That is the most satisfying thing to pull off in that game.

Legit, finding a gif of this online is what convinced me to buy DMC4SE even after already owning the original.

 

[monadoboy]

Shouldn't the Pokemon track weeks back have done it in?

A Pokemon newcomer isn't guaranteed. Granted, it's something like 99%

 

[Deleted member]

This argument relies on other theories which are unrelated to the box outside of the word 'theory'

Please explain how it doesn't? This is only a theory too, is it not? How would an argument against theories not apply against a theory?

Why would you change something that is already set to accomodate the remaining newcomers?

Because it would need to? I don't see how this is evidence that my point is invalid. That's assuming that this was a pattern designed for only two more in the first place, which to my knowledge, has no evidence that it is other than speculation, which is not fact and can still be argued against as much as it can be for.

Because she hadn't been revealed. It's that simple.

In that case, could the box not be designed the way it is because not everyone is revealed yet? Claiming it is the way it is because Isabelle hadn't been revealed yet only implies that this was specifically designed not to give anything away, and giving stuff away is the core argument of this theory

 

[Potato_]

Actually, it isn't clear if Steve? is DLC or not. So as of now, Verg only has two confirmed base game characters. The Box theory matches with Verge.

Hitagi even backtracked after the Vergeben comment on him, saying that Steve could be dlc, he just knew that he was a character.

So yeah Box and Verge can live, but it does assume that at least 2 characters for DLC are planned out to the point where they're confirmed characters, being the 2nd SE rep and Steve.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

What are people talking about, the music theory is now dead? Shouldn't the Pokemon track weeks back have done it in?

Let's just say it was an excuse from people who didn't want Incineroar and/or wanted Verg to be wrong
I was neither of those btw

 

[N3ON]

Yes, it SHOULD have, but people still hung onto a thread of hope.

A Pokemon newcomer isn't guaranteed. Granted, it's something like 99%

Let's just say it was an excuse from people who didn't want Incineroar and/or wanted Verg to be wrong
I was neither of those btw

But I don't understand how this week's track is significant, like FE breaks the theory. There is no anticipated FE non-echo and if echoes were a factor in the music theory it would've broken with Daisy.

Also anybody who thought Pokemon not aligning with the theory meant Pokemon wouldn't get a newcomer instead of the theory simply being bogus is impressively delusional.

 

[Idon]

Since when are Isabelle and Inkling heroes?

To be fair, inkling did y'know, beat DJ Octavius and get back their electricity. That 's definitely hero material.
And you could kiiiiiiinda justify Isabelle as being a small hero in her own right. She's at the very least a very good doggo.

 

[TheCJBrine]

But I don't understand how this week's track is significant, like FE breaks the theory. There is no anticipated FE non-echo and if echoes were a factor in the music theory it would've broken with Daisy.

The Music Theory hung onto series not getting more than one track.

Since a series has finally gotten two tracks, there's no reason another series can't get a second track for a newcomer.

 

[Lattenzo]

To be fair, inkling did y'know, beat DJ Octavius and get back their electricity. That 's definitely hero material.
And you could kiiiiiiinda justify Isabelle as being a small hero in her own right. She's at the very least a very good doggo.

But not a hero lul

 

[N3ON]

The Music Theory hung onto series not getting more than one track.

Since a series has finally gotten two tracks, there's no reason another series can't get a second track for a newcomer.

Ohhhhhh ****, is this not the first track from FE? Must've forgotten.

Alright, I'm following now. Well I'm glad we can put this one to rest.