Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Paperchampion23]

Ray wasn't in Smash 4.

Isaac probably got removed just because, there's zero reason to think he was ever planned to be playable.

So then replace what I said with Saki. I just don't think Irrelevancy matters to a character being included. Punchout!! certainly is not relevant by todays standards.

Aren't every playable character (bar Robin and Greninja) decided before development even started? My guess would be either other Assist Trophies took priority or it caused problems in 3DS version.

This is actually was I was thinking for a while. Several of those characters (Isaac, Helirin, Excitebike) create walls or are pretty numerous when they are released, so I can see why they were not implemented in 4.

 

[xAquaCrystal]

There are currently 68 revealed items in Ultimate, and we were promised more than Smash 4. (77) We have not yet seen:

• Home-Run Bat
• Freezie
• Rolling Crate
• Soccer Ball
• Lightning Bolt
• Blast Box
• Deku Nut
• Pitfall
• Smoke Ball
• Spring
• Unira
• Team Healer
• Grass
• Daybreak
• Special Flag
• Back Shield
• Fire Bar
• Steel Diver
• Gust Bellows
• Boomerang

We have also technically not seen 6 other items from previous Smash games, which I doubt will return.


There are currently 36 revealed Pokeball Pokemon in Ultimate, and we were promised more than Smash 4. (40) We have not yet seen:

• Moltres
• Togepi
• Gardevoir
• Arceus
• Dedenne
• Fennekin
• Fletchling
• Genesect
• Gogoat
• Inkay
• Keldeo
• Kyurem
• Meloetta
• Oshawott
• Snivy
• Spewpa
• Swirlix
• Victini

...in addition to 30 other Pokemon from past Smash games, which I don't expect to return.


There are currently 40 revealed assist trophies in Smash Ultimate, and we were promised "over 50." We have not yet seen:

• Devil
• Infantry and Tanks
• Kat and Ana
• Lakitu and Spinies
• Saki Amamiya
• Shadow the Hedgehog
• Tingle
• Chain Chomp
• Dillon
• Elec Man
• Magnus
• Nightmare
• Phosphora
• Sablé Prince
• Skull Kid

...in addition to 7 removed from Brawl to 4 because the characters had grown irrelevant, like Isaac.


In all 3 cases, it is a safe bet that the returning content more than makes up the deficit, with perhaps one or two things saved for spoilers (like Alucard). Additionally, more than a couple additional new entries would put us over the blog schedule, for what that's worth.

Maybe Sakurai really is getting rid of the Home Run Bat and Freezie, Gardevoir and Togepi, and Lakitu and Kat/Ana. Or maybe that's really dumb and the last direct is focusing on all the single player and online content, just as the last one focused on all the items/Pokemon/Assist Trophies/stages/songs.

Gosh I’m honestly hoping the reason shadow and skull kid AT are missing because they been promoted to being playable characters.

 

[osby]

So then replace what I said with Saki. I just don't think Irrelevancy matters to a character being included. Punchout!! certainly is not relevant by todays standards.

If you're talking about Smash For, it just got a game a few years ago.

Gosh I’m honestly hoping the reason shadow and skull kid AT are missing because they been promoted to being playable characters.

We don't know if they are removed yet.

 

[Clumsyzephyr]

So then replace what I said with Saki. I just don't think Irrelevancy matters to a character being included. Punchout!! certainly is not relevant by todays standards.

I agree, wasn't there an advance wars AT in smash 4 also?

Edit: I mean specifically with the irrelevancy argument, I don't believe he was ever intended to be playable in smash 4

 

[amazonevan19]

I would say Occam's Razor dictates Isaac got removed from 4 because Sakurai deemed him and Golden Sun irrelevant, not because "oh I want to put him in 4 sometime...oops I had too many characters, too little time this go around!"

That's not to say Isaac isn't in Ultimate. Raw fan demand may press Sakurai to include him in a similar fashion to K Rool. But for 4, I supremely doubt Sakurai was either: (a) 200 IQ'ing us and preplanning years and years in advance to put Isaac in Ultimate eventually, or (b) wanting to put Isaac in 4 but was just too lazy or ran out of time to.

The Isaac AT removal is probably not a good sign for Isaac fans to have him in base, because it shows Sakurai wasn't thinking about Golden Sun in a positive way during Smash 4's development, and circa 2015, I doubt Sakurai got some sort of revelation that Isaac should be in Ultimate. But anything can happen for DLC if the continued fan support for Isaac carries on.

 

[Thinkaman]

Isaac wasn't even a trophy in Smash 4. Almost playable? What?

 

[Paperchampion23]

If you're talking about Smash For, it just got a game a few years ago.

True, but even Golden Sun released a game after Punch-out got a sequel on Wii.

Isaac wasn't even a trophy in Smash 4. Almost playable? What?

Nobody even said that lmao.

I said his removal could have been the intent to make him playable, but it never panned out. I never said i was right. At all tbh.

 

[papagenos]

To be fair, there's still a LOT of information we're missing.

Various boss fights.

More new items/assists/Pokemon

The supposed 5 new stages

Spirits


to name a few. This finale Direct, whenever it comes, will be packed.

This is a lot of stuff to pack a direct with, AND we could also get some demo announcement or DLC / surprise "final character" or something in november.

I dont know if this hypothetical "as soon as next week" direct will have all this or if they'll spread this stuff out between two reveal moments one now and one in november.

i'm still hopeful they'll be a bit more than just ken/incineroar for characters, but im excited to maybe get some new info soon whatever it is.

 

[Chrono.]

Kinda feel Shadow would've been shown off in a screenshot with Knuckles and/or Sonic if he were still around by now, same for Skull Kid but with the Moon AT or Young Link. Press material likes showing off characters in neat ways like that.

So I feel it's more likely that they're just gone over them still being ATs.

 

[Luigi The President]

Call me stupid, because I am, but I refuse to believe 103 stages simply because of how damn certain I am Steve is playable in this game.
Ol' Vergey already confirmed some sort of Minecraft representation. Gut tells me it's a stage. (and a character. and an AT.)

But hey that's just me.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I would say Occam's Razor dictates Isaac got removed from 4 because Sakurai deemed him and Golden Sun irrelevant, not because "oh I want to put him in 4 sometime...oops I had too many characters, too little time this go around!"

That's not to say Isaac isn't in Ultimate. Raw fan demand may press Sakurai to include him in a similar fashion to K Rool. But for 4, I supremely doubt Sakurai was either: (a) 200 IQ'ing us and preplanning years and years in advance to put Isaac in Ultimate eventually, or (b) wanting to put Isaac in 4 but was just too lazy or ran out of time to.

The Isaac AT removal is probably not a good sign for Isaac fans to have him in base, because it shows Sakurai wasn't thinking about Golden Sun in a positive way during Smash 4's development, and circa 2015, I doubt Sakurai got some sort of revelation that Isaac should be in Ultimate. But anything can happen for DLC if the continued fan support for Isaac carries on.

I don't like the idea that people think relevancy matters for smash. Isaac likely got removed because...he just did. There probably isn't some significant explanation for it. Same with Ray, same with Excitebike and several others.

 

[xAquaCrystal]

I feel that if Isaac was plan to be playable he would of had been dlc in smash 4

Call me stupid, because I am, but I refuse to believe 103 stages simply because of how damn certain I am Steve is playable in this game.
Ol' Vergey already confirmed some sort of Minecraft representation. Gut tells me it's a stage. (and a character. and an AT.)

But hey that's just me.

you are not alone. I have a feeling we could be getting a Minecraft stage and I would be ok with that it would be interesting.

 

[Idon]

Kinda feel Shadow would've been shown off in a screenshot with Knuckles and/or Sonic if he were still around by now, same for Skull Kid but with the Moon AT or Young Link. Press material likes showing off characters in neat ways like that.

So I feel it's more likely that they're just gone over them still being ATs.

Ah. Isaac syndrome.
Horrible infliction...

 

[Paperchampion23]

Kinda feel Shadow would've been shown off in a screenshot with Knuckles and/or Sonic if he were still around by now, same for Skull Kid but with the Moon AT or Young Link. Press material likes showing off characters in neat ways like that.

So I feel it's more likely that they're just gone over them still being ATs.

I would have said the same thing were it not for Isabelle making the roster. Skull Kid and Shadow are literally in the same exact boat as her.

 

[Luigi The President]

I don't like the idea that people think relevancy matters for smash. Isaac likely got removed because...he just did. There probably isn't some significant explanation for it. Same with Ray, same with Excitebike and several others.

Relevancy matters to an extent, that's not really an opinion imo.
Isabelle got in that 2015 project plan, and that was more than likely due, in part, to her relevancy.

No, relevancy is NOT a requirement to be in Smash but there is 0% it doesn't factor in in different amounts.

 

[Chrono.]

Ah. Isaac syndrome.
Horrible infliction...

Except I don't think they'll be playable?

I just think they were replaced/removed entirely.

 

[Idon]

Except I don't think they'll be playable?

I just think they were replaced/removed entirely.

That was the joke.
Isaac was an assist trophy character that was removed from Smash 4 and many believed he was going to be made playable at a later date, but that never came to pass.

Unless this is a double joke and I'm getting double whooshed and you think Isaac's going to be playable.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Relevancy matters to an extent, that's not really an opinion imo.
Isabelle got in that 2015 project plan, and that was more than likely due, in part, to her relevancy.

No, relevancy is NOT a requirement to be in Smash but there is 0% it doesn't factor in in different amounts.

I'll make a correction then. Irrelevancy doesn't matter. When Ice Climbers and Game and Watch were characters for Melee, they were highly irrelevant. Pit and Rob for Brawl, K. Rool for Ultimate. None of these characters have made significant appearances before Smash in literal years (Save for Rob in Mario Kart DS which was interesting).

Characters can be completely irrelevant and if Sakurai likes them, they'll make the roster. Example could possibly be Geno. He's HIGHLY irrelevant. But we all know Sakurai loves the character and has tried to put him in Smash.

 

[xAquaCrystal]

I would have said the same thing were it not for Isabelle making the roster. Skull Kid and Shadow are literally in the same exact boat as her.

Not only that it’s just been a pattern in smash in general. If a character AT is missing they are usually prompted to playable. Like little Mac, dark Samus, Isabelle.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I would have said the same thing were it not for Isabelle making the roster. Skull Kid and Shadow are literally in the same exact boat as her.

Isabelle's reveal was saved to happen along side a new Animal Crossing though

Not only that it’s just been a pattern in smash in general. If a character AT is missing they are usually prompted to playable. Like little Mac, dark Samus, Isabelle.

That's a total of three examples, two of which being extremely recent.

Isaac, Excitebikes, Helirin, Jill, Mr. Resetti, Ray MK III, and Barbara are examples of AT's that simply got dropped.

Granted the likes of Shadow are more iconic than those mentioned, but Isabelle and D. Samus don't exactly constitute a pattern.

 

[Luigi The President]

I'll make a correction then. Irrelevancy doesn't matter. When Ice Climbers and Game and Watch were characters for Melee, they were highly irrelevant. Pit and Rob for Brawl, K. Rool for Ultimate. None of these characters have made significant appearances before Smash in literal years (Save for Rob in Mario Kart DS which was interesting).

Characters can be completely irrelevant and if Sakurai likes them, they'll make the roster. Example could possibly be Geno. He's HIGHLY irrelevant. But we all know Sakurai loves the character and has tried to put him in Smash.

All of those characters you named represented retro games at the time. They were "tokens" for that reason.
K. Rool entered pretty exclusively due to fan demand.

I'm not disagreeing as you probably can tell. Irrelevancy doesn't matter if the fans want them, and/or Sakurai wants them. Geno qualifies for both here.

 

[Chrono.]

That was the joke.
Isaac was an assist trophy character that was removed from Smash 4 and many believed he was going to be made playable at a later date, but that never came to pass.

Unless this is a double joke and I'm getting double whooshed and you think Isaac's going to be playable.

Oh my bad lol

I thought you were calling me out.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Isabelle's reveal was saved to happen along side a new Animal Crossing though

Yeah but nobody knew that before the Direct lol. She's based off of New Leaf, not this new game anyway. My point stands that Skull Kid and Shadow both had their ATs replaced by another character in their franchise, same as Isabelle.

 

[Luigi The President]

Not only that it’s just been a pattern in smash in general. If a character AT is missing they are usually prompted to playable. Like little Mac, dark Samus, Isabelle.

Exactly.

This is why I plan to main Isaac and Custom Robo Day 1.

 

[Idon]

Not only that it’s just been a pattern in smash in general. If a character AT is missing they are usually prompted to playable. Like little Mac, dark Samus, Isabelle.

Never forget:

 

[amazonevan19]

Except I don't think they'll be playable?

I just think they were replaced/removed entirely.

I will be seriously upset if Shadow got the Isaac treatment. How painful it would be if, after all this time, Shadow has the best chance of making a smash game he's ever had; he's pretty much a consensus community pick, and would work wonderfully in the game, and then he gets completely cut...it would make so little sense and yet , with my growing pessimism on the rest of Smash Ultimate's roster, I can see Sakurai making that decision.

Don't like to think about it though and not as a knock on you Chrono, but posts/speculation like yours really don't help

 

[Chrono.]

The fact Ray still gets called Custom Robo kinda says it all as to how relevant he is/was.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Call me stupid, because I am, but I refuse to believe 103 stages simply because of how damn certain I am Steve is playable in this game.
Ol' Vergey already confirmed some sort of Minecraft representation. Gut tells me it's a stage. (and a character. and an AT.)

But hey that's just me.

Not gonna call you stupid, just gonna give you a friendly warning that certainty is never a good thing in Speculation. If you're certain something will happen and then it ends up not happening you're going to be disappointed about it.

Even with me, I keep that bubble in the back of my mind that there is a possibility that Inceneroar and Ken still have a chance of not happening. Verge has been spot on and it looks like those two are a certainty but I'm going to stay open to the idea that they might not happen that way I won't be disappointed by the outcome either way. Words of advice is all.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think it's more likely that Isaac got cut due to his gameplay function causing problems.

It was already really wacky with some Brawl stages.

 

[Paperchampion23]

I will be seriously upset if Shadow got the Isaac treatment. How painful it would be if, after all this time, Shadow has the best chance of making a smash game he's ever had; he's pretty much a consensus community pick, and would work wonderfully in the game, and then he gets completely cut...it would make so little sense and yet , with my growing pessimism on the rest of Smash Ultimate's roster, I can see Sakurai making that decision.

Don't like to think about it though and not as a knock on you Chrono, but posts/speculation like yours really don't help

While I think Shadow/Skull Kid have decent chances of making the roster like Isabelle, I will say your issue with it isn't a first.

Its happened with Isaac and his fans the worst, especially when people saw Little Mac got upgraded and got their hopes up for nothing.

Its just the nature of Smash in general. We all end up being more wrong than right, no matter how much something makes sense (like Shadow being a Sonic echo)

 

[xAquaCrystal]

I will be seriously upset if Shadow got the Isaac treatment. How painful it would be if, after all this time, Shadow has the best chance of making a smash game he's ever had; he's pretty much a consensus community pick, and would work wonderfully in the game, and then he gets completely cut...it would make so little sense and yet , with my growing pessimism on the rest of Smash Ultimate's roster, I can see Sakurai making that decision.

Don't like to think about it though and not as a knock on you Chrono, but posts/speculation like yours really don't help

Lol I would be so hurt if shadow didn’t atleast make it as a sonic echo after all this waiting to see if he was confirmed too T.T

 

[Luigi The President]

Not gonna call you stupid, just gonna give you a friendly warning that certainty is never a good thing in Speculation. If you're certain something will happen and then it ends up not happening you're going to be disappointed about it.

Even with me, I keep that bubble in the back of my mind that there is a possibility that Inceneroar and Ken still have a chance of not happening. Verge has been spot on and it looks like those two are a certainty but I'm going to stay open to the idea that they might not happen that way I won't be disappointed by the outcome either way. Words of advice is all.

No, do call me stupid, because my certainty is, indeed, stupid, and you're completely correct.

I'm the type of person where, no matter how much I force myself to dampen my expectations, I'll always feel at least a little bit of disappointment, sadly.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Call me stupid, because I am, but I refuse to believe 103 stages simply because of how damn certain I am Steve is playable in this game.
Ol' Vergey already confirmed some sort of Minecraft representation. Gut tells me it's a stage. (and a character. and an AT.)

But hey that's just me.

My gut tells me that Minecraft is a selectable theme for the yet to be revealed stage builder. Thus not affecting the 103 stages nor giving us a playable Steve.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think it's more likely that Isaac got cut due to his gameplay function causing problems.

It was already really wacky with some Brawl stages.

I was going to mention this. Isaac's assist, among others, had some wacky issues. Drill Dozer was cut too right? I remember her getting stuck in stage geometry on occasions pretty well.

 

[Luigi The President]

My gut tells me that Minecraft is a selectable theme for the yet to be revealed stage builder. Thus not affecting the 103 stages nor giving us a playable Steve.

I will be inexpressibly confused if they went through the immense work of licensing Minecraft for a stage builder theme but we'll just have to see

 

[Jigglymaster]

I will be inexpressibly confused if they went through the immense work of licensing Minecraft for a stage builder theme but we'll just have to see

Why would you be confused? Isn’t Minecrafts biggest selling feature the ability to build? You’d think the stage builder mode would be the absolute most fitting thing for Minecraft.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

While I think Shadow/Skull Kid have decent chances of making the roster like Isabelle, I will say your issue with it isn't a first.

Its happened with Isaac and his fans the worst, especially when people saw Little Mac got upgraded and got their hopes up for nothing.

You know I might step on some toes here, but can we take a moment and realize Skull Kid and Shadow are just a bit more iconic/well known/and dare I say the o-so accursed word relevant than Isaac. I wouldn't exactly call myself a die hard supporter of either one of them but they'd certainly be the biggest named AT's that just got straight up dropped. The closest one I could think of would be Grey Fox and his exclusion was due to Snake being dropped. Once Snake returned, he came back with him

All I'm saying is that it's odd, no offence to Isaac fans, that they would just drop big names like Shadow and Skull Kid. I think it more likely they either are returning as ATs, or are somehow a part of Spirits mode.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I think given Verge said Minecraft content is in the game, it makes most sense as a stage--so I still go with CoroCoro on there being probably 108 stages, especially since there's been no correction for weeks. However, given Hitagi's backtracking and Verge's lack of confidence in Steve's playability, I think a stage is sufficient, the same with Monster Hunter, if that is a stage as well. That's 2 potential stages of the possible 108. I don't expect any old series getting new stages, as we haven't seen new Metroid or Donkey Kong stages--the only exception I see is for Incineroar with a Sun and Moon stage. The rest, I think, would be for new characters. This is all that I'm confident in. The rest, I'm less certain.

 

[Luigi The President]

Why would you be confused? Isn’t Minecrafts biggest selling feature the ability to build? You’d think the stage builder mode would be the absolute most fitting thing for Minecraft.

I'd be confused because no matter how you put it, whether it be thematic fitting or not, the concept of Sakurai going through perhaps the most work for a third party so far-as it's a Microsoft IP-for a simple stage builder theme seems a bit silly.

I'll tell you what I can see. A Minecraft stage that you can build around if you choose to do so. Alongside a character.

 

[Waluigi is not getting in]

Bias aside, Shadow, Geno and Skull Kid have the most probable chances.

We don't need to discuss Ken and inceniroar(??)

Those are the characters where we've seen other characters that shared their position make it in.
Ex: Mii Costumes and Assist Trophies(Dark Samus and Isabelle)