Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

There is really two things I need to say in regards to this nightmare of a post. First, don't break up an multiparagraph argument into single line quote boxes. Surprise: each point builds on the last. If you do that, you are missing my entire argument.Moreover, how the heck can I actually respond to any of those points, especially when half of it is lost in the quote ether. At the very least, at least say something more profound and not "Citation" or "No"

Second, I don't need a citation for conclusions or assessments. There was only a few things in that post that require any source. The Sakurai quotes (both of which can be found on Source Gaming with one of them being from a recent interview) and the sales numbers (which you can find on Nintendo's investor relations website). So no, me saying "I think Nintendo won't let Sakurai play around as much" does not need a citation. I think your one of those people who demands a source for every little thing and can't think for themselves. You can draw conclusions, make inferences, and develop analysis without a specific source. That last line doesn't need one.I'm happy to go over why I say that, but how about you just ask that instead.

Look who's calling who's post a nightmare.

 

[DraginHikari]

Why Corrin over Roy? I’ve never understood how surprisingly not uncommon the notion to keep Roy but cut Corrin is

Melee Nostalgia and a dislike for Fates I would image. Given from what I know Roy game wasn't that significant as a whole. But I'm not overly familiar with it.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Why Corrin over Roy? I’ve never understood how surprisingly uncommon the notion to keep Roy but cut Corrin is

I feel like Fates will run out of popularity soon by the time this game/FE on Switch comes out.

Nobody is making you reply to discussion about Fire Emblem, you know?

Where's the fun of having a debate if everything is one sided?

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Chrom does not have to be an Ike clone.

It wouldn't even make sense for him to be an Ike clone.

 

[N. Onymous]

A support pic I drew for Lip.

 

[N3ON]

This game may take a similar route to that of Arms and Splatoon 2, with a fully brand new game, but without as many characters, and free being DLC released overtime. I personally would much rather have this than the... Smash 4 mechanics...

That also is a possibility, sure.

They seem to have found success doing that with Splatoon. Not so sure with ARMS, but Smash will be able to maintain engagement either way.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Where's the fun of having a debate if everything is one sided?

You're not debating though, you're just telling people that Fire Emblem is "overrepresented" and that's it. The rest of us are actually debating, and it's about who could be most likely to join the roster, which is a much more positive discussion anyways. Sorry you don't like Fire Emblem, but you're being really childish towards all of us who want to have a positive, fun discussion.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

When 2/7ths of DLC is Fire Emblem, I think "too many characters'' might have a point.

Does it matter how many characters a series has if, from a gameplay perspective, they are fun to play?

Considering one of the 2 DLC characters was a very popular returning vet, and the other was a character placed only after initial hesitation from the director, and realization of unique gameplay, I don’t think it’s all THAT bad.

Like... I can understand thinking that maybe a series has too many characters. But does that really matter at this point? Just add more characters from other series this time.

Corrin being in doesn’t suddenly mean that K.Rool got the shaft. I’m not saying K.Rool was who you wanted, but the point is the same.

Corrin brings something different from other characters in the game, and despite having similar moves to Marth, you can’t play Roy or Lucina the same way. It’s 3 deviations of the same moveset that happen to work, and people like the characters in general.

Are we going to cut them just because of some silly “rep” argument? Who cares as long as they’re fun to play?

 

[Starcutter]

All this talk of needing to trim the roster...why? Besides the silly argument that certain series are “improperly represented” what need is there to cut?

I enjoy every single Fire Emblem character because they’re simply fun to play. Why remove that enjoyment when you can just add other characters?

I don’t understand why anyone wo actively advocate to remove a specific character. It’s like breaking somebody else down for your own enjoyment.

Cuts may be a sort of reality (who knows with this game?) but let’s remember- clones like Lucina are added because they’re easy to make toward the end. Them being similar to another character is literally the point in them being in smash.

I say leave Fire Emblem alone. I don’t necessarily think we should advocate for any more additions (I think Celica could be fun but eh), but I don’t think we should cut characters people like simply because to some, “they have too many characters”.

Hm, maybe I should say something like:

"I would prefer they prioritize work on planned newcomers before doing the majority of work on veterans such as Corrin"

That way if they have time they could still be in, but if they run out of time we still get interesting characters?


Idk what I'm even getting at, to be honest.

 

[Deleted member]

It wouldn't even make sense for him to be an Ike clone.

In my defense, I listened to Viridi in Palutena's Guidance by my claim that Chrom could be an Ike clone.

That also is a possibility, sure.

They seem to have found success doing that with Splatoon. Not so sure with ARMS, but Smash will be able to maintain engagement either way.

Splatoon and ARMS are guaranteed in Smash in Switch at this point. I do hope Min-Min becomes a character as well, because Min-Min is just so much fun in ARMS. Min-Min has a nice design and I like how she has a dragon arm.

 

[Radical Bones]

Fire Emblem in Smash 4 went from 0-100 real quick. I can see why people who don't play the series would be mad tbh. Three newcomers and a DLC spot for one series when a lot of series' that have been around longer are left with nothing.

I don't think anyone from the series should be cut, and I'd be fine with another newcomer from the series. Maybe in Smash 2018 we can have the same kind of attention paid to another series is all (Donkey Kong, obviously).

Edit: apostrophe

 

[N3ON]

Does it matter how many characters a series has if, from a gameplay perspective, they are fun to play?

Considering one of the 2 DLC characters was a very popular returning vet, and the other was a character placed only after initial hesitation from the director, and realization of unique gameplay, I don’t think it’s all THAT bad.

Like... I can understand thinking that maybe a series has too many characters. But does that really matter at this point? Just add more characters from other series this time.

Corrin being in doesn’t suddenly mean that K.Rool got the shaft. I’m not saying K.Rool was who you wanted, but the point is the same.

Corrin brings something different from other characters in the game, and despite having similar moves to Marth, you can’t play Roy or Lucina the same way. It’s 3 deviations of the same moveset that happen to work, and people like the characters in general.

Are we going to cut them just because of some silly “rep” argument? Who cares as long as they’re fun to play?

It depends on how much you let what you believe to be an inferior addition colour your view of the roster.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Wanting characters to get cut, I feel, goes against the very thing Smash Bros is. The game is supposed to be a welcoming culmination of various video games and characters. Once a character is in, Sakurai has said himself that they hold a special place and he does everything he can to preserve the character going forward for not only himself protecting what he sees as "his children", but also for the new fans of that character.
Asking for a character to be cut is really selfish, honestly. Basically saying your wants/needs are more important than someone else's. Saying you want a character to get added is cool, or you think a character might be cut because of some reason is fine. But just having the sheer desire to have a character cut because you don't like a franchise is absolutely selfish.

 

[Chron]

I’m totally aware that people already know that Sakura is on an extended vacation.

Does that mean she'll miss her chance of joining Smash Switch?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It depends on how much you let what you believe to be an inferior addition colour your view of the roster.

I just find it so interesting how quickly fans will claim a character that plenty of people enjoy should be given the axe, simply so that they get their own character...as if that is in any way how the planning time is used.

It’s like, “Eh, I don’t play or like that character. I don’t care how different they are and what they add to the game, they’re NOTHING in comparison to what my character of choice can do!”

It seems interesting to me that this mentality is used to empower adding other characters...as if the character couldn’t get in on merit alone and would only be added if another wasn’t. Seems somewhat selfish and...sad, no?

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Once again, I don't see why Greninja would go when Charizard and Lucario stayed.

It's too early to say anyone but the most obvious veterans are safe, but I can't think of any good reason why Greninja would be cut other than possibly be low priority, for some reason. That's the question I have. Would Greninja be low priority, and why?

I think that's the same concern I have for pretty much all possible cuts at this point, really. With some unique exceptions like Ice Climbers (hardware problems) Young Link (replaced by Toon Link) and Snake (likely something to do with Konami and Nintendo, given that Snake is a third-party belonging to the former, and Kojima no longer working with it) the majority of the cuts we've had so far were low priority, for different reasons. Most of them have been clones, but that hasn't always been the case.

If we could get a good idea of which characters could most likely be low priority this time, we might just have an easier time figuring out who's at risk of being cut.

 

[Starcutter]

Why don't we just have Lucina as a skin for Marth? Give Marth 16 color slots and give Lucina half of them.

That way, if we do that and drop one of the smash 4 DLC Fire Emblem characters for a new one, the roster won't look as bloated in the fire emblem department while only having figuratively one character replacement.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

You're not debating though, you're just telling people that Fire Emblem is "overrepresented" and that's it. The rest of us are actually debating, and it's about who could be most likely to join the roster, which is a much more positive discussion anyways. Sorry you don't like Fire Emblem, but you're being really childish towards all of us who want to have a positive, fun discussion.

Welcome to the internet, people can be debbie downers and not agree.

Does it matter how many characters a series has if, from a gameplay perspective, they are fun to play?

Considering one of the 2 DLC characters was a very popular returning vet, and the other was a character placed only after initial hesitation from the director, and realization of unique gameplay, I don’t think it’s all THAT bad.

Like... I can understand thinking that maybe a series has too many characters. But does that really matter at this point? Just add more characters from other series this time.

Corrin being in doesn’t suddenly mean that K.Rool got the shaft. I’m not saying K.Rool was who you wanted, but the point is the same.

Corrin brings something different from other characters in the game, and despite having similar moves to Marth, you can’t play Roy or Lucina the same way. It’s 3 deviations of the same moveset that happen to work, and people like the characters in general.

Are we going to cut them just because of some silly “rep” argument? Who cares as long as they’re fun to play?

Some people don't really care for movesets and such which is why people advocate for Lucina's cut.

Wanting characters to get cut, I feel, goes against the very thing Smash Bros is. The game is supposed to be a welcoming culmination of various video games and characters. Once a character is in, Sakurai has said himself that they hold a special place and he does everything he can to preserve the character going forward for not only himself protecting what he sees as "his children", but also for the new fans of that character.
Asking for a character to be cut is really selfish, honestly. Basically saying your wants/needs are more important than someone else's. Saying you want a character to get added is cool, or you think a character might be cut because of some reason is fine. But just having the sheer desire to have a character cut because you don't like a franchise is absolutely selfish.

Welcome to the internet where people's arguments won't make any sense, like mine.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Why don't we just have Lucina as a skin for Marth? Give Marth 16 color slots and give Lucina half of them.

That way, if we do that and drop one of the smash 4 DLC Fire Emblem characters for a new one, the roster won't look as bloated in the fire emblem department while only having figuratively one character replacement.

I think the issue there is that Sakurai already made his comment on the Lucina situation for Smash 4, and I don't think he can go back on that without making many fans very angry. He made them their own characters because the way he wanted Lucina to work was different from Marth and also not a lot of work. Now that she has been her own character, I don't see her becoming a skin. The situation is exactly the same as Dr. Mario, who probably should've been a skin in the first place imo.

 

[Radical Bones]

I'd rather Sakurai rework a character that I don't like so that they're fun to play rather than just unfairly cut them. Yoshi, for example, as much as I love him, I hated playing as him up until Smash 4 where I now use him in almost all my online matches.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Guys it literally doesn't matter how many reps a series has; Sakurai himself has gone on record saying he doesn't believe in the concept.

To be fair, Sakurai has mentioned htat he cares about "Distribution among the franchises"
https://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/26/sakurai-on-character-choices/

Smash 5 is not gonna shoehorn characters into the roster or cut characters from the roster for the sake of evening out the numbers between franchises. If a character gets in, it'll be because of their own merits and their own merits alone.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again; characters get in because of who they are, not what they are.

The rest of this is extremely true though.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Why don't we just have Lucina as a skin for Marth? Give Marth 16 color slots and give Lucina half of them.

That way, if we do that and drop one of the smash 4 DLC Fire Emblem characters for a new one, the roster won't look as bloated in the fire emblem department while only having figuratively one character replacement.

Because that is the absolute worst thing you could do after cutting Lucina from the cast, or any clone for that matter. It spits in the face of players who do like their inclusion, as well as removing the very few differences she does have with Marth.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I think the issue there is that Sakurai already made his comment on the Lucina situation for Smash 4, and I don't think he can go back on that without making many fans very angry. He made them their own characters because the way he wanted Lucina to work was different from Marth and also not a lot of work. Now that she has been her own character, I don't see her becoming a skin. The situation is exactly the same as Dr. Mario, who probably should've been a skin in the first place imo.

Do you think Lucina should have been a skin?

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Welcome to the internet, people can be debbie downers and not agree.

Some people don't really care for movesets and such which is why people advocate for Lucina's cut.

Welcome to the internet where people's arguments won't make any sense, like mine.

I mean I was ready to be done with this, but if you're openly saying you're fine with yourself making this environment uncomfortable for others just because "its the internet" and you don't necessarily like something, I think you need to step away for a bit. I value everyone's opinions towards something but you are consciously being destructive towards an otherwise healthy discussion.

 

[Starcutter]

I definitely don't think a lot of the fire emblem characters will be prioritized highly other than Ike and Marth. Robin is likely to return as well, but I have a feeling all the others might be lower priority. That doesn't mean they won't return, but I think one or two won't be coming back in the base game. DLC is a thing though.

If they add lucina as DLC she better be dirt cheap unless she gets a complete makeover

 

[Chron]

I think the issue there is that Sakurai already made his comment on the Lucina situation for Smash 4, and I don't think he can go back on that without making many fans very angry. He made them their own characters because the way he wanted Lucina to work was different from Marth and also not a lot of work. Now that she has been her own character, I don't see her becoming a skin. The situation is exactly the same as Dr. Mario, who probably should've been a skin in the first place imo.

Luckily, of all of the clones, she should take the least balancing by far.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Do you think Lucina should have been a skin?

In the first place, perhaps. I don't mind that she is a low-effort clone, though. Now that she has been her own character, though, I don't want them to go back.

 

[Chron]

I want SS Link who uses Fi.
Your not the only one with sword girls Rex!

 

[N3ON]

Should we never wish a song on an album removed because we don't like that song and would enjoy the album more without it? Should we never wish an episode of a show unaired or changed? Should we never wish an athlete on a team cut or traded? Have none of you ever wished for any of those things? We're entitled to want what we want so long as we don't conflate it with what needs happen.

And btw telling people what Smash means is also a selfish perspective. Smash means different things to different people.

 

[Pakky]

I'm fairly confident that we will keep all six Pokemon.



They're all really iconic and popular.

Don't know about that, Gen 8 needs to bust into the room, and they've been doing this "6 man team" call back when it comes to Pokemon for two games now.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Honestly, I think the series would be fine at 4/5 characters. 6 characters is the problem I have.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Should we never wish a song on an album removed because we don't like that song and would enjoy the album more without it? Should we never wish an episode of a show unaired or changed? Should we never wish an athlete on a team cut or traded? Have none of you ever wished for any of those things? We're entitled to want what we want so long as we don't conflate it with what needs happen.

And btw telling people what Smash means is also a selfish perspective. Smash means different things to different people.

Well the beauty of all those things is that you can skip them (except the athlete thing I guess?) and still enjoy the final product. If there's characters in the game you don't necessarily like being in the game, you can skip them. Nobody is making you play them. Is making that statement about what Smash is selfish? Probably. But I'm trying to promote an inclusive environment to discuss Smash without being aggressively approached about removing something that is important to people merely to gain the knowledge that it isn't there anymore because you happened to not like it.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It almost always seems like people flat-out wanting characters to be cut is because of bias of some kind.

They really have nothing much to gain from it except not have to fight a character they don't like fighting.

I'm not gonna accuse everyone who wants character cut is because of such a reason, but in any case, there's really still nothing to be gained from it. Where some people are satisfied, many will be hurt. You can't please everybody. You simply can't.

And it's not like characters truly steal "slots" from any others. I myself do still dislike Dark Pit's presence on the roster. He's barely different from Pit, to the point where he just feels kind of pointless being his own thing. I would not complain if he was cut. Even so, if that did happen, I would still have nothing to gain in the grand scheme of things. With how little effort needs to put into making a clone like him, he'll probably be low priority again. He'll be completed if time allows for it, as it did last time. I don't like fighting him, I think of him as a pointless addition, but his removal certainly isn't necessary, and would not allow for a different unique character to join in his place.

 

[Lyndis_]

RUMOR BELOW

Someone on Reddit says their father works at Nintendo of America as an executive, whome tole them Smash Switch is a new game.

I know that sounds like an obvious lie or a joke, but someone looked them up based on their history and they appear to actually be the son of Flip Morse, who according to Bloomberg.com (and Flip Morse's own pages) is the Senior Vice President of Corporate Resources for Nintendo of America.

Everything this user has posted about themselves checks out to be true. Take it with a grain of salt as always, but they've at the very least seriously dedicated themselves to pretending to be Flip Morse's real son if they are lying (which I doubt based on how old this account is and how frequently it's used.)

(If this is against the rules, or considered to be invading this person's privacy too much I'll remove it. I tried my best to tell as much as I could without giving any real personal information I found of this person other than what they posted publicly in the one thread.)

 

[A Distant Demon]

Genuine question.

When people look at the smash roster, do they want every individual thing to be perfect, or do certain things that people don't like are just THAT offensive that they ovverride everything else in the game?

RUMOR BELOW
their father works at Nintendo

 

[Pakky]

RUMOR BELOW

Someone on Reddit says their father works at Nintendo of America as an executive, whome tole them Smash Switch is a new game.

I know that sounds silly or like a joke, but someone looked them up based on their history and they appear to actually be the son of Flip Morse, who according to Bloomberg.com (and Flip Morse's own pages) is the Senior Vice President of Corporate Resources for Nintendo of America.

Everything this user has posted about themselves checks out to be true. Take it with a grain of salt as always, but they've at the very least seriously dedicated themselves to pretending to be Flip Morse's real son if they are lying (which I doubt based on how old this account is and how frequently it's used.)

(If this is against the rules, or considered to be invading this person's privacy too much I'll remove it. I tried my best to tell as much as I could without giving any real personal information I found of this person other than what they posted publicly in the one thread.)

Whew its that season again. but alright.

 

[Starcutter]

Because that is the absolute worst thing you could do after cutting Lucina from the cast, or any clone for that matter. It spits in the face of players who do like their inclusion, as well as removing the very few differences she does have with Marth.

Alright, you did say that having lucina as a skin WOULD BE BETTER than having her cut, which was my main point.

either way, she's probably still in just because of how easily she can be made.


OH WAIT.

What if the "Marth clone but his sword is even" idea gets translated to a different Fire Emblem character. Namely, I could totally see Alm taking over that spot.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Well the beauty of all those things is that you can skip them (except the athlete thing I guess?) and still enjoy the final product. If there's characters in the game you don't necessarily like being in the game, you can skip them. Nobody is making you play them. Is making that statement about what Smash is selfish? Probably. But I'm trying to promote an inclusive environment to discuss Smash without being aggressively approached about removing something that is important to people merely to gain the knowledge that it isn't there anymore because you happened to not like it.

You're taking my opinion as like a fact. I think you're getting worked up over nothing. My opinion is one out of 7.5 billion my dude. Just because I think X should be removed doesn't mean it will happen.

RUMOR BELOW

Someone on Reddit says their father works at Nintendo of America as an executive, whome tole them Smash Switch is a new game.

I know that sounds silly or like a joke, but someone looked them up based on their history and they appear to actually be the son of Flip Morse, who according to Bloomberg.com (and Flip Morse's own pages) is the Senior Vice President of Corporate Resources for Nintendo of America.

Everything this user has posted about themselves checks out to be true. Take it with a grain of salt as always, but they've at the very least seriously dedicated themselves to pretending to be Flip Morse's real son if they are lying (which I doubt based on how old this account is and how frequently it's used.)

(If this is against the rules, or considered to be invading this person's privacy too much I'll remove it. I tried my best to tell as much as I could without giving any real personal information I found of this person other than what they posted publicly in the one thread.)

I need to see a list of the leaks he's made and how much of them are true.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

It almost always seems like people flat-out wanting characters to be cut is because of bias of some kind.

They really have nothing much to gain from it except not have to fight a character they don't like fighting.

I'm not gonna accuse everyone who wants character cut is because of such a reason, but in any case, there's really still nothing to be gained from it. Where some people are satisfied, many will be hurt. You can't please everybody. You simply can't.

And it's not like characters truly steal "slots" from any others. I myself do still dislike Dark Pit's presence on the roster. He's barely different from Pit, to the point where he just feels kind of pointless being his own thing. I would not complain if he was cut. Even so, if that did happen, I would still have nothing to gain in the grand scheme of things. With how little effort needs to put into making a clone like him, he'll probably be low priority again. He'll be completed if time allows for it, as it did last time. I don't like fighting him, I think of him as a pointless addition, but his removal certainly isn't necessary, and would not allow for a different unique character to join in his place.

I agree with almost all of this. However, I'm not entirely sure Dark Pit was a good comparison there, as he's a clone and those have been confirmed already that they don't take away from other characters because they're added late into development. That being said, it's also been said that characters don't steal slots from each other, as Sakurai has stated that he does not believe in the concept at all.

Basically, you're on the right track, but for the wrong reason

I will definitely agree with you on that "nothing to gain from" sentiment. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

Genuine question.

When people look at the smash roster, do they want every individual thing to be perfect, or do certain things that people don't like are just THAT offensive that they ovverride everything else in the game?

I think that a lot of people see it as highly irritating that something they don't perceive as terribly significant having a obviously larger amount of work sunk into it than something that is important to them. For example Fire Emblem having 6 characters when Kirby has 3. To many, Kirby seems a lot more important than Fire Emblem, but for some inconceivable reason Fire Emblem has double the number of characters, and that's irritating.