Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Luigi The President]

Just got home and we're back on the boxes, huh.

Oh boy.

 

[Untouch]

I gotta say it's really funny how quickly gamefaqs turned on Vergeben because he leaked the things they don't like.

 

[staindgrey]

just because a design is intricate does not mean that its final. designers are almost always fixing and changing stuff right up until it has to be printed (and hell even in printing there will still be last hour changes). and the design is absolutely NOT final. where is isabelle? incineroar? ken? the SE rep? this is clearly not the final design. that will be the one that launches on nov.

Ken, Isabelle and Incineroar are already explained by the box theory that you've been discrediting as "caca" and the SE rep is only an unsubstatiated rumor that you're trying to propose as fact in order to dismiss the actual evidence in front of you as fiction.

I'm not trying to get you to believe box theory. At all. I genuinely don't care if you do. But not believing what evidence points to and not believing that evidence exists are two different things, and in the era of people saying "fake news" to anything they don't want to believe, that really, really grates me.

That's the last I'll say on the subject. I'm not going down this route again. Come back and like this post when the game releases and the box art is final.

 

[Deleted member]

I gotta say it's really funny how quickly gamefaqs turned on Vergeben because he leaked the things they don't like.

GameFaqs in general is just a pitiful pile of jokers.

 

[Trisepta]

Since the Box Theory is a thing, I want to bring up another theory that I brought up before.
So far, the newcomers are being revealed in chronological order from when the game they first appeared in was released.
Ridley - August 1986
Simon - September 1986
King K. Rool - 1994
Isabelle - 2012
※ Inkling is an exception as they were used to reveal the game and did not receive a splash screen.

So assuming the Box Theory is correct, and we are only getting 1 unique newcomer, they would likely be from a game that was released after New Leaf.
That being said, Vergeben may be correct with Incineroar. Although there are plenty of other potential characters that fit.

Also, just a thought on the Blog Theory in relation to the Box Theory.
The Blog Theory suggests that we are to get 6-8 more fighters (correct me if I'm wrong on this), but could some of them potentially be boss/Spirits mode reveals after all of the fighters have been revealed?

 

[Noipoi]

Just got home and we're back on the boxes, huh.

Oh boy.

It's gonna be like this until the next announcement.
And if the next announcement is Incineroar everyone's gonna be shouting "VERG WAS RIGHT!" or "BOX CONFIRMED" while I celebrate .

 

[Luigi The President]

Ken, Isabelle and Incineroar are already explained by the box theory that you've been discrediting as "caca" and the SE rep is only an unsubstatiated rumor that you're trying to propose as fact in order to dismiss the actual evidence in front of you as fiction.

I'm not trying to get you to believe box theory. At all. I genuinely don't care if you do. But not believing what evidence points to and not believing that evidence exists are two different things, and in the era of people saying "fake news" to anything they don't want to believe, that really, really grates me.

That's the last I'll say on the subject. I'm not going down this route again. Come back and like this post when the game releases and the box art is final.

I do have an issue with this post that's not regarding the box theory.

Dismissing the SE rep as an unsubstatiated rumor but then freely including Ken and Incineroar seems a bit unfair to me.

 

[cmbsfm]

I gotta say it's really funny how quickly gamefaqs turned on Vergeben because he leaked the things they don't like.

They did the same thing to ChaosZero too during Brawl. If Vergeben’s right about Incineroar and Ken being in then it’s just going to be embarrassing for them, more than it already is anyway.

 

[hposter]

Since the Box Theory is a thing, I want to bring up another theory that I brought up before.
So far, the newcomers are being revealed in chronological order from when the game they first appeared in was released.
Ridley - August 1986
Simon - September 1986
King K. Rool - 1994
Isabelle - 2012
※ Inkling is an exception as they were used to reveal the game and did not receive a splash screen.

So assuming the Box Theory is correct, and we are only getting 1 unique newcomer, they would likely be from a game that was released after New Leaf.
That being said, Vergeben may be correct with Incineroar. Although there are plenty of other potential characters that fit.

Also, just a thought on the Blog Theory in relation to the Box Theory.
The Blog Theory suggests that we are to get 6-8 more fighters (correct me if I'm wrong on this), but could some of them potentially be boss/Spirits mode reveals after all of the fighters have been revealed?

we don't even know what "spirits" mode is right now, so who knows

 

[Pyra]

Popped back in briefly to say I have found the solution to the leaks.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Noipoi]

Popped back in briefly to say I have found the solution to the leaks.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Is this real? Please tell me it's real.

 

[Originality]

Is this real? Please tell me it's real.

It's completely real I love it

 

[AugustusB]

On the talk of DLC. I think this man says it best.
- https://sourcegaming.info/2015/04/23/sakurai-on-dlc-its-all-about-making-players-happy/
-
https://kotaku.com/smash-bros-creator-on-intolerable-dlc-1699908411

Oh wait...that man is Masahiro Sakurai.

He will take care of his fans.

EDIT: I am certain there is a nice surprise in store for us come the next Smash Direct.

 

[Kuon]

I guess Shadow could've been held back as DLC. Echo fighter DLC seems kind of scummy though because they're basically the same as existing characters, unless it's tied to a season pass or online subscription in which case I'd be on board with it. Thanks for the responses.

I think it'd be cool if they released a unique and an echo together as DLC

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Since the Box Theory is a thing, I want to bring up another theory that I brought up before.
So far, the newcomers are being revealed in chronological order from when the game they first appeared in was released.
Ridley - August 1986
Simon - September 1986
King K. Rool - 1994
Isabelle - 2012
※ Inkling is an exception as they were used to reveal the game and did not receive a splash screen.

So assuming the Box Theory is correct, and we are only getting 1 unique newcomer, they would likely be from a game that was released after New Leaf.
That being said, Vergeben may be correct with Incineroar. Although there are plenty of other potential characters that fit.

Also, just a thought on the Blog Theory in relation to the Box Theory.
The Blog Theory suggests that we are to get 6-8 more fighters (correct me if I'm wrong on this), but could some of them potentially be boss/Spirits mode reveals after all of the fighters have been revealed?

And then we watch as Sakurai puts a character that is out of order year-wise, because he doesn't use patterns.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Phil Swift in Smash?

Now we just need Wurmple.

Ultimate Meme Leaks

 

[staindgrey]

I do have an issue with this post that's not regarding the box theory.

Dismissing the SE rep as an unsubstatiated rumor but then freely including Ken and Incineroar seems a bit unfair to me.

That's a fair assessment. It wasn't my best post. I was starting to get very annoyed.

I was replying to his assertion that because Isabelle, Incineroar and Ken aren't currently on the box, the box is therefore fake. The theory he dismisses accounts for three spaces-- Isabelle, what is most likely Ken and some other newcomer-- but I just went with Incineroar because that's what he brought up.

 

[Deleted member]

The box is everything. The box is love, the box is life.

ALL HAIL THE MAGIC BOX!

In all seriousness, I think we just need to wait and see. There is still zero ironclad evidence that proves it real or fake right now. If people wish to speculate outside the theory, honestly, why not just let them? Why come in and shoot anything that isn't the box down? All that does is stifle discussion and stir the pot, which IMO is doing nothing to help this thread.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

i wonder if "The game is completed" Means when the game goes gold, or if it means when the game's content is mostly complete and all that's left is bugfixing and balance tweaks.

I could see DLC being planned or developed as a side project since possibly e3.

 

[Luigi The President]

That's a fair assessment. It wasn't my best post. I was starting to get very annoyed.

I was replying to his assertion that because Isabelle, Incineroar and Ken aren't currently on the box, the box is therefore fake. The theory he dismisses accounts for three spaces-- Isabelle, what is most likely Ken and some other newcomer-- but I just went with Incineroar because that's what he brought up.

No comment on the box part itself, but just keep that in mind.

It's important to note that the SE rep is just as "in" as Incineroar and Ken (not directed at you since you admitted you flubbed a bit-just a point I see disregarded far more than it should)

Thanks for understanding

 

[Mc.Rad]

i wonder if "The game is completed" Means when the game goes gold, or if it means when the game's content is mostly complete and all that's left is bugfixing and balance tweaks.

I could see DLC being planned or developed as a side project since possibly e3.

They stated that they had no plans for DLC after E3, but I think we may get some requests to come in soon.

 

[Potato_]

Something I personally disagree with.

For all we know, the box theory is entirely wrong, and people are shutting down almost all discussion about base roster that isn't Ken or Incineroar because of it. This is not conducive to healthy discussion.

I just want to say this: Nothing is stopping anyone from discussing possible rosters/what you believe is in. If someone does, they're not really being fair. As long as people preface their speculation by saying "Oh I don't believe Box Theory/Verge is right due to X" then I think you're totally fine.

I'll support speculation posts like that for sure, gives us some stuff to do until we get actual info. Plus it's fun seeing what characters people can come up with, and reasons for their inclusion.

They stated that they had no plans for DLC after E3, but I think we may get some requests to come in soon.

That's a PR answer for sure. Imagine if they said "Oh hell yeah we're definitely going to make dlc for Ultimate!" You would have people immediately suspicious that they're holding back characters for dlc and what not. Plus for some it puts a damper on the base roster.

Besides, Sakurai started development on DLC only after Smash 4 was complete. I think he'll do the exact same thing here.

EDIT: Mewtwo began development close to the end of Smash 4's development, thanks to staindgrey for that. Still not worried though, his post does a good job explaining why.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

So did Verge say something new?

I saw something about Gamefaqs turning on him?

 

[Luigi The President]

They stated that they had no plans for DLC after E3, but I think we may get some requests to come in soon.

Let's not be silly, they've definitely got them DLC plans already.

So did Verge say something new?

I saw something about Gamefaqs turning on him?

Nothing Smash related.

 

[praline]

They stated that they had no plans for DLC after E3, but I think we may get some requests to come in soon.

Well even if they did have plans they would say that they didn’t.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Since the Box Theory is a thing, I want to bring up another theory that I brought up before.
So far, the newcomers are being revealed in chronological order from when the game they first appeared in was released.
Ridley - August 1986
Simon - September 1986
King K. Rool - 1994
Isabelle - 2012
※ Inkling is an exception as they were used to reveal the game and did not receive a splash screen.

So assuming the Box Theory is correct, and we are only getting 1 unique newcomer, they would likely be from a game that was released after New Leaf.
That being said, Vergeben may be correct with Incineroar. Although there are plenty of other potential characters that fit.

Also, just a thought on the Blog Theory in relation to the Box Theory.
The Blog Theory suggests that we are to get 6-8 more fighters (correct me if I'm wrong on this), but could some of them potentially be boss/Spirits mode reveals after all of the fighters have been revealed?

The moment you go "That doesn't count" is the moment we point and laugh

We have more than that, plus we could always have stages and items get shown off as we haven't seen **** like the goddamn invincibility star. This is proof everyone is just trying to hope we have more than a handful of characters left despite Sakurai clearly going how he hopes we aren't expecting a lot of newcomers. Then "Only a few challengers left" before revealing K.Rool. This is ESRB all over again. Which is the Brawl Roster leak all over again. People desperately clinging for more characters

 

[Noipoi]

So did Verge say something new?

I saw something about Gamefaqs turning on him?

Gamefaqs turns on anyone who says anything they don't like.

 

[Deleted member]

The moment you go "That doesn't count" is the moment we point and laugh

We have more than that, plus we could always have stages and items get shown off as we haven't seen **** like the goddamn invincibility star. This is proof everyone is just trying to hope we have more than a handful of characters left despite Sakurai clearly going how he hopes we aren't expecting a lot of newcomers. Then "Only a few challengers left" before revealing K.Rool. This is ESRB all over again. Which is the Brawl Roster leak all over again. People desperately clinging for more characters

Both this and the Music Theory going "this one thing that disproves my theory doesn't count" is what makes me annoyed people believe them at all.

 

[Deleted member]

So did Verge say something new?

I saw something about Gamefaqs turning on him?

To my knowledge, the only things he's said recently were doubling down on Incineroar and Ken...which are not very popular picks in the fandom right now, apparently, lol. It doesn't help GameFAQs is one of the worst possible video game forums on the internet with, IMO, a very toxic community.

 

[Luigi The President]

Both this and the Music Theory going "this one thing that disproves my theory doesn't count" is what makes me annoyed people believe them at all.

See the music theory I can understand better since Echoes are classified kinda differently. And the whole AC Music thing is making me feel it has to be true, right?

But other times people go "oh this doesn't...this doesn't count" and it's ridiculous.
(btw shi buddy im dying over the music theory halp)

 

[Deleted member]

See the music theory I can understand better since Echoes are classified kinda differently. And the whole AC Music thing is making me feel it has to be true, right?

But other times people go "oh this doesn't...this doesn't count" and it's ridiculous.
(btw shi buddy im dying over the music theory halp)

then perish

 

[Pyra]

every time people talk about the music theory it makes me think they're looking at the circle of fifths for hints

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

I will try to avoid the box outside of breif mentions from now on but while I can fully understand it's a possibility I also just find it, bizarre? I really don't understand how a roster with only one 3rd party newcomer, no namco character despite them being very close to the project and heihachi being on the cards since smash 4, and it ending on a pokemon, brawl and 4's final reveals were "modern" characters from a recent IP from nintendo, and the final final character was always (outside of brawl, but ROB was intended to be the final character until wolf and toon link were snuck in last minute) a retro tribute, which forms part of the indenity of smash bros, it's connection to the past and present of nintendo, why would they end on a alolan pokemon? Everyone could see an alolan pokemon coming from a mile away, assuming this is true, the roster genuinely feels like it got cut short randomly. Like, I know it's possible and i'm mentally prepared, but i'm gonna look at the final roster and go "where's the other part". And like, there's always a genuine surprise character waiting for us, and a semiclone from a very popular series aint it.

I know my arguments against it are just hunches, but like, it's baffling, in a way that smash 4 and brawl's rosters and reveal timelines were not.

I feel like a roster should tell a story, and melee, brawl and smash 4 all told a story, this one just at this point, feels like they jumbled the characters and revealed them randomly, outside of inkling and ridley.

 

[SmashChu]

You're asking for proof when the picture itself is proof.

There's no "not final artwork" watermark. The design is intricate, with the individual character layers spread slightly further apart from one another than the official standalone box art to accommodate for the controller and adapter at the bottom. It has the ESRB final rating, a list of what comes in the box written in a stylized, evenly justified way, and the final design of the controller. The characters are shown on the side-- which, if this were a placeholder, that side wouldn't even need to be shown at all-- and follow a very specific pattern that would never need to be followed or even created if this were a throwaway mockup without another unseen side. And it already replaced the previous placeholder design of a generic black box with "Smash Bros. Ultimate" on it.

This box took effort, looks final, and the game should be going gold within the next month-to-month and a half, meaning these designs being sent to retailers to replace previous placeholders is incredibly significant. Replacing the artwork again with significant changes less than two months away from shipping them to retailers, while not impossible, is basically unheard of.

Anyway, I'm done arguing this. I'm not asking you to believe the box theory; it's only a hypothesis that could be wrong due to a whole bunch of unknown variables. But the box itself is about as final as it can get.

Since this hasn't been posted before, I want to point this gem from GameFAQ

34 characters are lined up on the right side of the box, with 2 spaces left.

The other 35 characters we know of are presumably on the left side of the box, with 1 space left.

The characters tend to alternate between sides based on their official numbers. 9 on the left, 9 on the right, 9 on the left, 9 on the right, and so-on, until at the end we have 8 on the left and 7 on the right. Some people are reaching the conclusion that this box tells us that there are 2 characters remaining to be seen (as Isabelle is not on the box) with 1 as a newcomer and 1 as an echo of a character between Palutena and Cloud since those would be the last 8 characters on the left side before switching back to the right. Many people are taking this to mean we'll see a character like Ken or Medusa, and then one more last character. I'd like to propose an alternate theory.

The characters on the right are probably shifted forward one space in the last set of nine to account for blank space in a bottom corner of the left side. This box design was drawn up before Isabelle was even revealed, and obviously is not final. There are probably 2 blank spaces on the bottom right corner of the right side and 1 blank space in the corner of the left side not because those are spaces where specific characters go, but because 69 isn't divisible by 2 or by 36.

Nintendo has separate divisions for things like game design and marketing. Sakurai has stated before that he had nothing to do with the box art of previous games. Right now the roster of this game is one of Nintendo's biggest secrets. Taking this box to mean something would entail believing that Nintendo would trust a box artist with knowledge of the entire roster just so they could make tentative, non-final box art which... does not include the final roster. It's unlikely at best and also kind of silly.

On the official site, there is a mural featuring every character shown so far. It was shown first without Ridley and Daisy, then updated to include them, then updated to include the characters revealed on 8/8/18, and also again updated yesterday to include Isabelle. With every update, characters have been moved around and even resized. (All of the characters are now smaller than they originally were, so that the image can fit more characters.) If they can do this for this giant artwork, constantly, then they can change some tentative box art. I happen to have a promo case for Brawl in my possession, and it is COMPLETELY different. Definitely take this with a grain of salt. Or like, a whole gallon of salt. I doubt this means what it's being extrapolated to mean.

Tl;dr: The box means nothing and y'all are way too thirsty or just not thinking this through enough. The other side of the box probably just has a blank space too. One blank space is on one side with two on the other just so there aren't three black spaces in a row all on the same side. This was an artistic choice made by someone who did not have every asset at hand and who was working on obviously non-final material, nothing more.

The reason the box is designed the way it is is not because of whats left of the roster but based on what is known at the time. The 6x6 grids were chosen because the fit the dimensions of the side of the box and because the next number to go into 6 (after 69, the number of character boxes) is 72. One group has 8 not because of an echo fighter but because it works (and perhaps to have a character from the DLC on the side they are showing). While the poster didn't mention it, I believe the 9 split was due to the fact its one and a half of 6. It was done to make the switching sides look better.

I think this post clears up why this theory is extra stupid.

 

[RandomAce]

The moment you go "That doesn't count" is the moment we point and laugh

We have more than that, plus we could always have stages and items get shown off as we haven't seen **** like the goddamn invincibility star. This is proof everyone is just trying to hope we have more than a handful of characters left despite Sakurai clearly going how he hopes we aren't expecting a lot of newcomers. Then "Only a few challengers left" before revealing K.Rool. This is ESRB all over again. Which is the Brawl Roster leak all over again. People desperately clinging for more characters

Kinda hoping this isn’t true because it invalidates Isaac, Geno, and a ton of other characters right off the bat.

Of course, I thought about it being real, but I think in the grand schemes of thing, it was just a coincidence.

 

[Deleted member]

I read up on the box more and now I believe it. It just doesn't make sense for the whole thing to follow a pattern of 9 except for the gap between Mii Fighters and Corrin, which is 8. So you have to slot in Ken there to be next to Ryu, and that means the whole design is the finished product except they blacked out the two unrevealed characters on our side, Isabelle and Incineroar. I guess LeakyPandy is gonna be right about a DQ11 rep as DLC at the Game Awards because they're probably right about Skull Kid being a boss, so that makes the box line up with Vergeben. Pretty disappointing but it looks like it's true. Plus the whole thing lines up with the music theory since we haven't gotten a Pokemon remix on the site yet. Honestly I don't find a reason to doubt it now that I fully understand it.

 

[uebo7]

So here's a thought

The Blog theory posits that, if it keeps exactly as it is now, we have 8 new characters left, right?

The box theory goes in groups of 9, but it has rows of 6. The side of the box that we do see would presumably end it's last row with whoever the non-echo newcomer is after Isabelle. With Ken presumably on the other side, that's 2/8. If another grouping were to start, it would begin on the side of the box that we can't see

So we aren't we considering the possibility that the sides are asymmetrical and the side we can't see is slightly shorter to fit in another row of 6 - which, according to the box theory, is exactly the number of characters we're missing after you take out Ken + whoever's after Isabelle?

Scrunch that side up a bit, get another row on that side, you have room for a total of 8 characters. The next row would start on that side anyways, so without being able to see if it's laid out in the same manner, it's as valid a speculation as anything else.

It allows The Verge leaks, the Blog theory, the Music theory, and the 108+ Stages rumor to coexist with the Box theory. But it rests on the sides of the box being asymmetrical.

EDIT: It also allows speculation like the mech toy = Elma playable, missing Shadow AT = Shadow echo, various thing surrounding Geno + Verge's SE character = Geno playable to coexist, and leaves open the possibility for 2 of Isaac/Skull Kid/Bandana Dee and Dixie Kong too.

If we do have 8 and it was something like:

Incineroar
Elma
Geno
Skull Kid/Bandana Dee/Isaac
Bandana Dee/Skull Kid/Isaac

Ken
Dixie Kong
Shadow

That would be perfect. Skull Kid and Bandana Dee both have things going in their favor, Isaac's just the fan darling who doesn't really have things potentially pointing as his inclusion.

I haven't seen anybody mention this possibility, so I'm bringing it up for discussion.

This is a sound theory for the most part. The only problem is that box theory does not allow any other echoes to exist before the mystery slot (Ken). So Shadow would be out of the question, as well as Dixie Kong. At least until DLC.

 

[Luigi The President]

I will try to avoid the box outside of breif mentions from now on but while I can fully understand it's a possibility I also just find it, bizarre? I really don't understand how a roster with only one 3rd party newcomer, no namco character despite them being very close to the project and heihachi being on the cards since smash 4, and it ending on a pokemon, brawl and 4's final reveals were "modern" characters from a recent IP from nintendo, and the final final character was always (outside of brawl, but ROB was intended to be the final character until wolf and toon link were snuck in last minute) a retro tribute, which forms part of the indenity of smash bros, it's connection to the past and present of nintendo, why would they end on a alolan pokemon? Everyone could see an alolan pokemon coming from a mile away, assuming this is true, the roster genuinely feels like it got cut short randomly. Like, I know it's possible and i'm mentally prepared, but i'm gonna look at the final roster and go "where's the other part". And like, there's always a genuine surprise character waiting for us, and a semiclone from a very popular series aint it.

I know my arguments against it are just hunches, but like, it's baffling, in a way that smash 4 and brawl's rosters and reveal timelines were not.

Echoes or not, getting 3 third party newcomers is a B I G D E A L.

I read up on the box more and now I believe it. It just doesn't make sense for the whole thing to follow a pattern of 9 except for the gap between Mii Fighters and Corrin, which is 8. So you have to slot in Ken there to be next to Ryu, and that means the whole design is the finished product except they blacked out the two unrevealed characters on our side, Isabelle and Incineroar. I guess LeakyPandy is gonna be right about a DQ11 rep as DLC at the Game Awards because they're probably right about Skull Kid being a boss, so that makes the box line up with Vergeben. Pretty disappointing but it looks like it's true. Plus the whole thing lines up with the music theory since we haven't gotten a Pokemon remix on the site yet. Honestly I don't find a reason to doubt it now that I fully understand it.

Who tf is Leaky Pandy

 

[staindgrey]

Besides, Sakurai started development on DLC only after Smash 4 was complete. I think he'll do the exact same thing here.

That's not actually true. But it's not a bad thing.

Mewtwo was announced to the public on Oct. 23rd, showing still in-progress work that had already been done on the DLC character. Smash for Wii U wasn't released until November 21st, and here is an article from Oct. 17th stating that work on Smash Bros. 4 was not yet complete.

But the thing to take away from this still isn't that Nintendo's holding back parts of the finished game to be sold later. As development nears its end, there are multiple people on the dev team who no longer have work to do. People like 3D modelers, concept artists, etc. When you reach that point, you can either A) lay them off, B) move them to another game/studio, or C) move them to a new project on the same game. Mewtwo was most likely option C. So while work on DLC did start before Smash 4 development was finished, it didn't hinder, delay, or result in cut content from the game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Kinda hoping this isn’t true because it invalidates Isaac, Geno, and a ton of other characters right off the bat.

Of course, I thought about it being real, but I think in the grand schemes of thing, it was just a coincidence.

No but that's EXACTLY what I mean! People are so against this, and surprisingly aggressively so, because it means a potential favourite of theirs isn't making the cut for the base game.