Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[PsychoIncarnate]

After thinking about it, the easiest way to lower the hype is to spread pessimism

If you are really hoping your character gets in, even as DLC, the fastest way to make sure they won't is to spread pessimism.



So, screw Leaky Pandy. And screw the box theory

I've been able to keep up the fight for 12 years so I don't see a reason why I should let some fan theories keep me down.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If only Isabelle and fighter 69's spot was taken up by a barcode.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

Echoes are not, getting 3 third party newcomers is a B I G D E A L.

Unless I'm missing the jokes here, Code Red Ryu and Baja Blast Simon ain't gonna cut it overall.

 

[cothero]

Thinking about Vergeben's statements, we'll probably get Incineroar, Ken and Geno as the last fighters. The final number of characters would be very reasonable, consisting in 68 original characters, 7 echoes and 12 newcomers. I'm not a big Geno fan, but hey, there are a lot of people who wants him in the game, so i'm OK with that. Also, considering the ballot, he might have been one of the most voted characters out there.

 

[Chrono.]

If only Isabelle and fighter 69's spot was taken up by a barcode.

I always wanted to main a barcode.

 

[Luigi The President]

Unless I'm missing the jokes here, Code Red Ryu and Baja Blast Simon ain't gonna cut it overall.

I'm not sure how to explain to you that they literally just gave us three third party newcomers but like. Dude.

 

[blackghost]

Street Fighter players bought Evil Ryu and Oni Akuma with SSFIV:AE.

While they'd certainly generate less hype and anger some people (which is dumb, but whatever), you know there are plenty of people who would buy an echo either because they really like that character, or because they want the whole roster complete.
.

not the same thing at all. evil ryu and oni were not even comparable to echo characters.
fewer people would buy echo dlc that not a question

 

[Pyra]

After thinking about it, the easiest way to lower the hype is to spread pessimism

If you are really hoping your character gets in, even as DLC, the fastest way to make sure they won't is to spread pessimism.



So, screw Leaky Pandy. And screw the box theory

I've been able to keep up the fight for 12 years so I don't see a reason why I should let some fan theories keep me down.

There it is. Was waiting for that.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Street Fighter players bought Evil Ryu and Oni Akuma with SSFIV:AE.

They were also bundled with the more popular and unique (in the sense they aren't literally alternate versions of established characters) Yun and Yang and the entire edition included a balance patch that made that version obligatory for competitive players to get in order to keep up. If Oni was released separately, he probably would have sold poorly.

It's kind of ironic that the Smash community is one of the few gaming communities out there that actively push for DLC.

That's because Smash is the one fighting game franchise that has proven itself to handle DLC like the way it should be - stuff that is worked on after the game has been finished instead of being finished content that could easily be in the base game but held back just for extra money.

 

[LetterO]

Did I miss much, or just more leak talk?

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

DLC is the biggest epidemic in the gaming industry.

 

[Opossum]

You know, thinking about it, that gap in the character art kind of looks like where they would put the barcode.

Imagine the havoc that would result from that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I can't believe Incineroar got Mike Wazowski'd.

 

[staindgrey]

not the same thing at all. evil ryu and oni were not even comparable to echo characters.
fewer people would buy echo dlc that not a question

Agree to disagree. They were certainly semi-clones, and had more similarities to the fighters they drew from than Decapre, who could also be argued as a semi-clone.

Point is, I don't think the number of people buying echoes would be significantly fewer, because people want more content/are completionists/like the characters/etc. And with new versions of Ryu and Akuma, there's somewhat reasonable precedent.

 

[Deleted member]

I find it interesting that people instantly believe Vergeben about Incineroar and Ken because that confirms Box Theory, but then he brings up the SE character and instantly the conversion turns to "Well, they're obviously DLC!"

...Why do we assume 100% they're DLC? And if we're willing to be skeptical and say that part of Verge's stuff is wrong, why are we adamant that Incineroar and Ken just can't be wrong? There's word twisting and excuses going on both sides, I think. People are saying this is ESRB all over again. Here's the thing; ESRB had proof. Like, actual, proof, with screenshots, videos, and people coming out and confirming "Yes, this is real" and there was no way to disprove it. Equating this theory to Gematsu would be more accurate IMO, as Verge and Gematsu are both text leaks that got a lot right. ...But Gematsu failed in the end, due to outdated info and misinformation. There is still a very real possibility that can happen with Verge. Again, I feel the people who are trying to both prove and disprove are cherry picking information without being mindful of the same song and dance we did back with Smash Wii U.

Another interesting point: Verge only came out and doubled down on Incineroar after the Box Theory started gaining traction. I'm not accusing him of lying, but to say it's impossible without proof is a bit odd to me. We have to take him for his word. He claims he has multiple sources, but how do we know if this is true? None of us know him, none of us know his sources. It is literally impossible to know what is and isn't going on with Vergeben right now, so IMO, our best course of action is to wait, and if people wanna speculate outside the box, just let them. Seriously, what does it hurt? Why do we need to shove this theory down everyone's throat and say "You can't say that, it goes against the box!" People enjoy speculating, it helps make the wait for the game easier for some, and it's fun to support your favorite characters and come up with a moveset for them.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Did I miss much, or just more leak talk?

Nah, except that there's a character debut chronology theory now…

I find it interesting that people instantly believe Vergeben about Incineroar and Ken because that confirms Box Theory, but then he brings up the SE character and instantly the conversion turns to "Well, they're obviously DLC!"

...Why do we assume 100% they're DLC? And if we're willing to be skeptical and say that part of Verge's stuff is wrong, why are we adamant that Incineroar and Ken just can't be wrong? There's word twisting and excuses going on both sides, I think. People are saying this is ESRB all over again. Here's the thing; ESRB had proof. Like, actual, proof, with screenshots, videos, and people coming out and confirming "Yes, this is real" and there was no way to disprove it. Equating this theory to Gematsu would be more accurate IMO, as Verge and Gematsu are both text leaks that got a lot right. ...But Gematsu failed in the end, due to outdated info and misinformation. There is still a very real possibility that can happen with Verge. Again, I feel the people who are trying to both prove and disprove are cherry picking information without being mindful of the same song and dance we did back with Smash Wii U.

Another interesting point: Verge only came out and doubled down on Incineroar after the Box Theory started gaining traction. I'm not accusing him of lying, but to say it's impossible without proof is a bit odd to me. We have to take him for his word. He claims he has multiple sources, but how do we know if this is true? None of us know him, none of us know his sources. It is literally impossible to know what is and isn't going on with Vergeben right now, so IMO, our best course of action is to wait, and if people wanna speculate outside the box, just let them. Seriously, what does it hurt? Why do we need to shove this theory down everyone's throat and say "You can't say that, it goes against the box!" People enjoy speculating, it helps make the wait for the game easier for some, and it's fun to support your favorite characters and come up with a moveset for them.

It's not theorizing anymore, it's Rashomon; there are parts of the truth in what everyone said, but it's covered by lies.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

DLC is the biggest epidemic in the gaming industry.

Ehhhhh.

I subscribe to this when it's on disc DLC that's clearly just ''We want to finish this and make you pay for it for later."

But when it's legit ''Well, we've crammed everything we can before release date! Oh look they want more!" I don't.

And that's what Sakurai does. The second. Nintendo as a whole has taken that approach to DLC.

 

[staindgrey]

DLC is the biggest epidemic in the gaming industry.

I'd argue it's games-as-a-service and ****ing sandboxes, personally.

DLC was the best part of Mass Effect 3.

 

[Luigi The President]

I find it interesting that people instantly believe Vergeben about Incineroar and Ken because that confirms Box Theory, but then he brings up the SE character and instantly the conversion turns to "Well, they're obviously DLC!"

...Why do we assume 100% they're DLC? And if we're willing to be skeptical and say that part of Verge's stuff is wrong, why are we adamant that Incineroar and Ken just can't be wrong? There's word twisting and excuses going on both sides, I think. People are saying this is ESRB all over again. Here's the thing; ESRB had proof. Like, actual, proof, with screenshots, videos, and people coming out and confirming "Yes, this is real" and there was no way to disprove it. Equating this theory to Gematsu would be more accurate IMO, as Verge and Gematsu are both text leaks that got a lot right. ...But Gematsu failed in the end, due to outdated info and misinformation. There is still a very real possibility that can happen with Verge. Again, I feel the people who are trying to both prove and disprove are cherry picking information without being mindful of the same song and dance we did back with Smash Wii U.

Another interesting point: Verge only came out and doubled down on Incineroar after the Box Theory started gaining traction. I'm not accusing him of lying, but to say it's impossible without proof is a bit odd to me. We have to take him for his word. He claims he has multiple sources, but how do we know if this is true? None of us know him, none of us know his sources. It is literally impossible to know what is and isn't going on with Vergeben right now, so IMO, our best course of action is to wait, and if people wanna speculate outside the box, just let them. Seriously, what does it hurt? Why do we need to shove this theory down everyone's throat and say "You can't say that, it goes against the box!" People enjoy speculating, it helps make the wait for the game easier for some, and it's fun to support your favorite characters and come up with a moveset for them.

I'm sure this'll sound blunt but imo it's because it doesn't line up with the box theory. I see all sorts of "reasoning" for it but it comes down to, imo, that "they're DLC because the theory doesn't work if they're base".

I personally believe Verge is the truth, regardless of my own personal feelings towards him, but yeah, the whole SE rep = DLC thing gets my goat. I don't mean to be disrespectful, though; I'm dumb, I'm certain there's genuine reasoning as to why they'd be DLC.

But I just haven't really seen it.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

I'm not sure how to explain to you that they literally just gave us three third party newcomers but like. Dude.

When Doctor Mario is going to have more differences than Richter and Ken, you know they ain't that big.

Its free real estate, i'm gonna take it, just don't tell me that adding richter and ken is in any way similar to adding something like Heihachi and Erdrick. They're bonuses, don't eat them like they're the main meal.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Since this hasn't been posted before, I want to point this gem from GameFAQ


The reason the box is designed the way it is is not because of whats left of the roster but based on what is known at the time. The 6x6 grids were chosen because the fit the dimensions of the side of the box and because the next number to go into 6 (after 69, the number of character boxes) is 72. One group has 8 not because of an echo fighter but because it works (and perhaps to have a character from the DLC on the side they are showing). While the poster didn't mention it, I believe the 9 split was due to the fact its one and a half of 6. It was done to make the switching sides look better.

I think this post clears up why this theory is extra stupid.

Mow how is the css going to look with 63-78 characters. Are talking about 1 more unique newcomer or 3-5.

We are not to expect to many. And give me what the css will look like with these extra chacters in order hy number.

It needs to look good and make sense.

Check my sig for box theory post. 1 more unique character makes the most sense.

And you have to be naive of you think the marketing division has no idea what is going on.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

I hate boxes, i hate speculation.
Post Nintendo-only characters that you'd like to see in Smash

 

[BrytonJ]

DLC is the biggest epidemic in the gaming industry.

Folks, you just cant deny that tech is here for good.

 

[Luigi The President]

When Doctor Mario is going to have more differences than Richter and Ken, you know they ain't that big.

Its free real estate, i'm gonna take it, just don't tell me that adding richter and ken is in any way similar to adding something like Heihachi and Erdrick. They're bonuses, don't eat them like they're the main meal.

I mean I'll say adding Ken is bigger than Erdirk or whoever he is LOL (just jokes)

Agree to disagree I guess. I get what you're saying, but I just don't feel it to be true. That's just me though.

 

[Potato_]

The moment you go "That doesn't count" is the moment we point and laugh

I mean, that's basically what Music Theory believers did with echoes after Dark Samus was shown.

That's not actually true. But it's not a bad thing.

Mewtwo was announced to the public on Oct. 23rd, showing still in-progress work that had already been done on the DLC character. Smash for Wii U wasn't released until November 21st, and here is an article from Oct. 17th stating that work on Smash Bros. 4 was not yet complete.

But the thing to take away from this still isn't that Nintendo's holding back parts of the finished game to be sold later. As development nears its end, there are multiple people on the dev team who no longer have work to do. People like 3D modelers, concept artists, etc. When you reach that point, you can either A) lay them off, B) move them to another game/studio, or C) move them to a new project on the same game. Mewtwo was most likely option C. So while work on DLC did start before Smash 4 development was finished, it didn't hinder, delay, or result in cut content from the game.

Well ****, I thought I had heard otherwise. Thank you for the source on that.

And yeah, your point makes a lot of sense. Better they work on DLC (if it is in the cards) then sit on their hands waiting for the other teams to finish their parts.

 

[Zinith]

I can't believe Incineroar got Mike Wazowski'd.

Incineroar got lucky then...

 

[Polan]

Ken, Isabelle and Incineroar are already explained by the box theory that you've been discrediting as "caca" and the SE rep is only an unsubstatiated rumor that you're trying to propose as fact in order to dismiss the actual evidence in front of you as fiction.

I'm not trying to get you to believe box theory. At all. I genuinely don't care if you do. But not believing what evidence points to and not believing that evidence exists are two different things, and in the era of people saying "fake news" to anything they don't want to believe, that really, really grates me.

That's the last I'll say on the subject. I'm not going down this route again. Come back and like this post when the game releases and the box art is final.

yeah, i'm not going to get heated over a ****ing box of all things. but at the end of the day, i still think the box theory is wrong because i'm pretty confident that the SE rep is on the base roster (it will be pretty scummy if it was finished but then pushed back as dlc) and because it runs under the assumption that the characters can't or won't be resized or shifted around. also a bit miffed that you compared people arguing against the box to people screaming fake news. but whatever.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Incineroar got lucky then...

Germany takes ironic memes seriously?

 

[blackghost]

The moment you go "That doesn't count" is the moment we point and laugh

/QUOTE]
that wasn't an inkling trailer it was a game announcement trailer.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Loot Crates are the worst thing to happen to gaming.

Any sort of 'Here's a cosmetic that you can only get with real money" or gamble with RNG to receive this!

 

[Luigi The President]

Which also served as an Inkling trailer, because it's when the Inklings were revealed.

 

[Schnee117]

There's nothing inherently wrong with DLC at all. It's the people who abuse it and push out overpriced content (DBFZ) or fully completed on-disc stuff as additional content (SFxT) that it gets scummy.

DLC was the best part of Mass Effect 3.

Outside of the on-disc Javik stuff yeah.
The Citadel DLC is amazing.

 

[AugustusB]

I hate boxes, i hate speculation.
Post Nintendo-only characters that you'd like to see in Smash

There, because you know...its ya boi.

 

[Pyra]

Germany takes ironic memes seriously?

(Pssst, they had to change the spacing of the characters, mainly Pikachu, because of the big ratings logo and Yoshi didn't fit anymore)

 

[TheFVguy]

So many leaks are saying the last remaining characters are going to be Incineroar and Ken. I really hope this isn't the case, but whatever.

 

[Sigran101]

They do, and they work with any Switch game provided you don't need -, ZL, motion controls, or clicking the sticks.

Awesome! Thanks!

 

[Guynamednelson]

So many leaks are saying the last remaining characters are going to be Incineroar and Ken. I really hope this isn't the case, but whatever.

Incineroar is more likely to be the next Chrom. While Akuma and Sakura are more popular, Ken fits with the limits of echoes more. We just gotta wait and see who the next Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, and Dark Pit are, if there is one.

 

[ReeseBalaski]

I would just like to say one thing regarding the box theory before I head out for a bit.

I don't think most people would be disappointed if it was true. This is a game that pretty much celebrates Smash itself. Over 70 characters, over 103 stages, over 800 songs, and who knows how much else. We have Ridley and K. Rool for crying out loud. In my opinion in doesn't matter if we get 2 more characters, or 7, or 5, or 0. This game is shaping up to be amazing and anything that's revealed after today is just icing on the cake. Really, most people don't have the issue of only 2 more characters, and them being Ken and Incineroar.

For me, the discussion about the Box Theory holds some things that bother me.

For starters, I don't, nor have I ever needed a box to be cautious with my expectations. My expectations have been low since March. I was ready to accept that Smash Switch might just be an enhanced port. I was ready to accept that there might be only 2 or 3 more characters after Ridley. My expectations for many things regarding this game are still at a responsible level. And I realize that's not the case for some people, but for most of the users here? You're all cool and responsible. You've all shown me that interaction on this site is more civil and organized than most other forums I've been on. I think it's safe to assume that most people here keep their hype levels in check. So, really, we don't need a box to lower our expectations. Especially since the game already looks stellar.

And that just goes into my second point. As I said before, It's still just a theory. Just something we've latched onto in the current absence of information. There's no right or wrong answer when it comes to which side you're on right now. The way problems can come up is if you try to treat your side as fact. No one likes that. Especially for a topic that's just a theory right now. All that we should do moving forward is speculate responsibly and try not to be condescending towards one another. And as I just said, you're all respectable people, so that won't be hard.

So yeah. That's all I got for now. Ciao, Smashers.

 

[Trisepta]

The moment you go "That doesn't count" is the moment we point and laugh

We have more than that, plus we could always have stages and items get shown off as we haven't seen **** like the goddamn invincibility star. This is proof everyone is just trying to hope we have more than a handful of characters left despite Sakurai clearly going how he hopes we aren't expecting a lot of newcomers. Then "Only a few challengers left" before revealing K.Rool. This is ESRB all over again. Which is the Brawl Roster leak all over again. People desperately clinging for more characters

While I do agree with that for some things, I do think this is within reason. It's not as if I said, "Inkling and Isabelle don't count because they weren't announced by Sakurai" or something like that. I feel that would be unreasonable.

I'm not sure where you're going with the 2nd half of your reply. Where are you getting that I'm expecting a lot of newcomers from my post? It suggests quite the opposite.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Loot Crates are the worst thing to happen to gaming.

Any sort of 'Here's a cosmetic that you can only get with real money" or gamble with RNG to receive this!

There's nothing inherently wrong with DLC at all. It's the people who abuse it and push out overpriced content (DBFZ) or fully completed on-disc stuff as additional content (SFxT) that it gets scummy.

These two.
DLC should only be extra content that adds to the experience of the main game, not content that was cut and then released to make a quick buck.
I think the only companies that do DLC how it's supposed to be are CDProjektRed and (to an extent) Nintendo.

 

[Luigi The President]

While I do agree with that for some things, I do think this is within reason. It's not as if I said, "Inkling and Isabelle don't count because they weren't announced by Sakurai" or something like that. I feel that would be unreasonable.

I'm not sure where you're going with the 2nd half of your reply. Where are you getting that I'm expecting a lot of newcomers from my post? It suggests quite the opposite.

The issue is that your pattern was broken as soon as it started. I don't believe the 2nd half was directed at you, though.