Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[staindgrey]

I THOUGHT WE'D HAD TO WAIT FOR THE GAME.

What's up with the Shulk render tho? Haven't found any difference other than being ridiculously high quality Edit: nvm just saw it.

I think they added a few more buckles.

 

[TechPowah]

I dunno if i'd use plushie Yoshi more than light blue or black
but i'm definitely gonna use it every time i wanna play a green Yoshi

 

[WolfCypher]

Alph's render makes me so happy...except that he's still an alternate costume.

I know. Daisy gets to be her own character and Alph is just a skin...the hell.

 

[Yosher]

I dunno if i'd use plushie Yoshi more than light blue or black
but i'm definitely gonna use it every time i wanna play a green Yoshi

What if Plush Yoshi comes with its own set of alternate colors, including light blue and black?

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Or, since I'm cynical:

3: Alph had like two votes in the ballot so it didn't cross the dev team's mind to make him take up a roster spot.

I imagine the demand for Alph was very low; people generally wanted him to get the Lucina/Dark Pit treatment but didn't really care for him making the roster as his own character and thus wouldn't have voted for him, so I wouldn't be surprised if other Echo candidates simply got prioritized over him for being more popular (and easier). Only reason Alph not being an Echo really sticks out is that Sakurai said he planned to promote Alph in Smash 4 like he did with the other promoted alt-costumes, so it was expected he would go through with it in Ultimate.

 

[staindgrey]

Mah girl! You look fantastic!
This is SO much better than her Smash 4 render.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Mah girl! You look fantastic!
This is SO much better than her Smash 4 render.

Alright for some

 

[Cosmic77]

Once again I hold that the main purpose of echoes have nothing to do with gameplay. It's all about the characters personality. Dark Samus would not move the same way Samus would, echo. Daisy would not move the same way Peach would, echo. Alph and the Koopalings would move the same way their counterparts do, so alt costumes. The gameplay differences are just an afterthought

If unique personalities dictated who gets an Echo, Bowser Jr would get seven Echoes while Ken and Chrom would be alts.

Sakurai calls the shots. Some characters like Isabelle become unique, some like Dark Samus become alts, and other said like Alph are stuck as costumes. As far as I can see, there isn't a specific rule Sakurai goes by to decide who's worthy of what. It's just whatever he thinks is best.

 

[Deleted member]

Holy **** Fem Robin's pose is sick

Why does Ike wear eyeliner? Is he trying to become a beauty guru?

Wait what

MOM GET THE CAMERA

 

[pupNapoleon]

Stormy Daniels did what to Toad?

Referred to the her time with the POTUS as reminder her of the little mushroom guy.
I suggest a google. It is a worthy read. And relevant!

 

[Deleted member]

If unique personalities dictated who gets an Echo, Bowser Jr would get seven Echoes while Ken and Chrom would be alts.

But Ken's personality is a complete opposite to Ryu's.

 

[Frostwraith]

Once again I hold that the main purpose of echoes have nothing to do with gameplay. It's all about the characters personality. Dark Samus would not move the same way Samus would, echo. Daisy would not move the same way Peach would, echo. Alph and the Koopalings would move the same way their counterparts do, so alt costumes. The gameplay differences are just an afterthought

IIRC Alph was considered to be a clone in Smash 3DS/Wii U and Rock Pikmin were also in consideration.

It's unknown whether Sakurai tried to implement this idea again, though.

Dark Pit and Lucina were also originally conceived as alternate costumes before being given gameplay differences.

Regardless, Alph being a Olimar costume makes sense since in Pikmin, it doesn't really matter all that much which character you're playing as since the gameplay revolves around the management of Pikmin. In fact, the Japanese name for Olimar/Alph is "Pikmin & Olimar/Alph", placing emphasis on the Pikmin moreso than Olimar or Alph.

Echo fighters in general are characters that don't have much to stand out. They're characters that work with another character's moveset, which is, once again, a gameplay design matter. Some movesets work with multiple characters, so these characters can easily be added in response to popularity.

Of course, all the animation differences, taunts and win poses help portray the character and make them more true to their source material, but are still just aesthetic differences.

 

[PsySmasher]

This is the Ridley you'll have to pick obligationary when you have lost a match as him beforehand.

I guess I'm gonna be picking this costume most of the time then.

 

[Darkraid]

Holy **** Fem Robin's pose is sick

Wait what
View attachment 165178
MOM GET THE CAMERA

Dude has hairy eyes

 

[pupNapoleon]

Once again I hold that the main purpose of echoes have nothing to do with gameplay. It's all about the characters personality. Dark Samus would not move the same way Samus would, echo. Daisy would not move the same way Peach would, echo. Alph and the Koopalings would move the same way their counterparts do, so alt costumes. The gameplay differences are just an afterthought

Alph and Olimar are quite different in personality. Almost opposing, in fact.
That's just not as apparent given we only have a few cutscenes each (mostly as Pikmin does not get enough more games).

 

[Koopaul]

Once again I hold that the main purpose of echoes have nothing to do with gameplay. It's all about the characters personality. Dark Samus would not move the same way Samus would, echo. Daisy would not move the same way Peach would, echo. Alph and the Koopalings would move the same way their counterparts do, so alt costumes. The gameplay differences are just an afterthought

I suppose the big difference is that Alph and Olimar fly a different ship. But as a costume they end up both flying the Dolphin.

Sakurai said said that Dark Pit couldn't be a costume because he didn't use the Three Sacred Treasures. It wasn't about personality. However he was fine with Alph flying the Dolphin? And the Koopalings turning into Shadow Mario?

 

[Deleted member]

IIRC Alph was considered to be a clone in Smash 3DS/Wii U and Rock Pikmin were also in consideration.

It's unknown whether Sakurai tried to implement this idea again, though.

Dark Pit and Lucina were also originally conceived as alternate costumes before being given gameplay differences.

Regardless, Alph being a Olimar costume makes sense since in Pikmin, it doesn't really matter all that much which character you're playing as since the gameplay revolves around the management of Pikmin. In fact, the Japanese name for Olimar/Alph is "Pikmin & Olimar/Alph", placing emphasis on the Pikmin moreso than Olimar or Alph.

Echo fighters in general are characters that don't have much to stand out. They're characters that work with another character's moveset, which is, once again, a gameplay design matter. Some movesets work with multiple characters, so these characters can easily be added in response to popularity.

Of course, all the animation differences, taunts and win poses help portray the character and make them more true to their source material, but are still just aesthetic differences.

But the same can be applied to Dark Pit who plays exactly the same in Uprising, the gameplay revolves around the multiple equippable weapons, not their own unique abilities.
There isn't a justification for Alph being just a costume when the reason noted for Pittoo being made into a separate character was that "it didn't make sense for him to use the Three Sacred Treasures" but then Alph just goes and uses the Hocotate Ship as his FS :/

 

[osby]

I know. Daisy gets to be her own character and Alph is just a skin...the hell.

Aren't clones in fighting games generally derived from characters with no unique mechanics?

I think they just couldn't easily made Alph into an echo. Plus, there's no way he made it high in the ballot, so low priority.

 

[staindgrey]

If unique personalities dictated who gets an Echo, Bowser Jr would get seven Echoes while Ken and Chrom would be alts.

Sakurai calls the shots. Some characters like Isabelle become unique, some like Dark Samus become alts, and other said like Alph are stuck as costumes. As far as I can see, there isn't a specific rule Sakurai goes by to decide who's worthy of what. It's just whatever he thinks is best.

I think the poster you quoted misused the word "personality". He doesn't mean the character's way of talking and whatnot, more just who the character is.

For instance, Ken vs. Ryu. Ken is a fiery hotshot, literally and figuratively. He hops around. He's flashy. He sparks fire with his shoryukens. He kicks a lot more. While his general gameplay is a direct spawn of Ryu, putting him in as merely a costume with no other changes could be seen as being disingenuous to the character. Same with Peach vs. Daisy. If Daisy carried herself like the same prim and proper princess Peach does, it could be seen as "not Daisy".

Alph, on the other hand, I mean. What needs to be distinguished between him and Olimar? I'd love to have him as an echo for using different Pikmin, but character-wise, is there something drastically different Alph would do that Olimar wouldn't? And with the Koopalings, isn't the clown car really the character? Is there something significant that the other koopalings would do while sitting in it that Bowser Jr.'s animations misrepresents?

You're absolutely right that there's no written rule they have to follow, but Sakurai still has general rules in his head that dictate how the roster is decided, even if it's fluid and changes with each game. We can find the differences between the echoes and costumes to try and deduce why he chose what he did.

 

[Originality]

IIRC Alph was considered to be a clone in Smash 3DS/Wii U and Rock Pikmin were also in consideration.

It's unknown whether Sakurai tried to implement this idea again, though.

Dark Pit and Lucina were also originally conceived as alternate costumes before being given gameplay differences.

Regardless, Alph being a Olimar costume makes sense since in Pikmin, it doesn't really matter all that much which character you're playing as since the gameplay revolves around the management of Pikmin. In fact, the Japanese name for Olimar/Alph is "Pikmin & Olimar/Alph", placing emphasis on the Pikmin moreso than Olimar or Alph.

Echo fighters in general are characters that don't have much to stand out. They're characters that work with another character's moveset, which is, once again, a gameplay design matter. Some movesets work with multiple characters, so these characters can easily be added in response to popularity.

Of course, all the animation differences, taunts and win poses help portray the character and make them more true to their source material, but are still just aesthetic differences.

I think the animation differences are what comes first. Sakurai chooses an echo on who would need to act differently, not to change a kit just the slightest bit. Lucina and Dark Pit were going to be alts but he decided that shouldn't be the case.

Alph and Olimar are quite different in personality. Almost opposing, in fact.
That's just not as apparent given we only have a few cutscenes each (mostly as Pikmin does not get enough more games).

Does Olimar do anything in smash Alph wouldn't, that's a genuine question idk

 

[Pyra]

tbh I feel like one of the few people who'd be okay with more characters as skins as well as more echos

A lot of people seem to hate either or

 

[Diddy Kong]

Holy **** Fem Robin's pose is sick

Wait what
View attachment 165178
MOM GET THE CAMERA

WHY IS THIS!?!?!

*deep sigh*

****!

 

[Good Guy Giygas]

These renders are irrefutable proof to me that the Box Theory is pretty much dead. Everyone was like, "why would they release the box render if it wasn't the completed design?" And yet, if they are still updating the renders for the characters, they can change the box art too.

 

[Heracr055]

After some careful consideration I want Toad in Smash now

 

[TheCJBrine]

Yoshi has a Crafted World render?

also yay fem. Corrin.

 

[Cosmic77]

But Ken's personality is a complete opposite to Ryu's.

Ehh... I guess. Compared to everyone else in SF, I always thought Ken was really similar to Ryu.

Either way, I think the Koopalings have more unique personalities than most of the Echoes we currently have. Just about every time they appear in a modern Mario game, Nintendo does their absolute best to show off their differences. It's kinda necessary. Without them, they're even more boring than they already are.

 

[osby]

WHY IS THIS!?!?!

*deep sigh*

****!

Can't a guy want to look his best in the heat of the battle?

 

[Dandelionel]

Mah girl! You look fantastic!
This is SO much better than her Smash 4 render.

Seeing this makes me pretty sad that she isn't the default. But Corrin is the biggest travesty, his male form has like 4 fans (and I'm one of them)

 

[staindgrey]

tbh I feel like one of the few people who'd be okay with more characters as skins as well as more echos

A lot of people seem to hate either or

I'm a huge fan of how Injustice handles its alternate costumes, with new voice lines and significant visual changes. I'd love it if Smash adopted this.

 

[Frostwraith]

Alph and Olimar are quite different in personality. Almost opposing, in fact.
That's just not as apparent given we only have a few cutscenes each (mostly as Pikmin does not get enough more games).

The taunts and win poses for Olimar happen to work well with Alph since they're kind of generic and don't really tell much about either of their personalities.

I think the animation differences are what comes first. Sakurai chooses an echo on who would need to act differently, not to change a kit just the slightest bit. Lucina and Dark Pit were going to be alts but he decided that shouldn't be the case.

Wrong.

Sakurai said the reason they got separated was because they came up with gameplay differences during the game's development and had time to implement them, making them a quick affair as they only got balanced relative to their counterparts rather than the whole roster.

But the same can be applied to Dark Pit who plays exactly the same in Uprising, the gameplay revolves around the multiple equippable weapons, not their own unique abilities.
There isn't a justification for Alph being just a costume when the reason noted for Pittoo being made into a separate character was that "it didn't make sense for him to use the Three Sacred Treasures" but then Alph just goes and uses the Hocotate Ship as his FS :/

And even then, the Dark Pit Staff was copypasted from Zelda's Light Arrow, down to having the exact same damage and knockback output.

The animation of Dark Pit using the staff even looks kind of sloppy, so it has "rush job" written all over it.

 

[Deleted member]

These renders are irrefutable proof to me that the Box Theory is pretty much dead. Everyone was like, "why would they release the box render if it wasn't the completed design?" And yet, if they are still updating the renders for the characters, they can change the box art too.

Shulk, Falco, and Palutena's renders were updated months ago.

 

[Diddy Kong]

These renders are irrefutable proof to me that the Box Theory is pretty much dead. Everyone was like, "why would they release the box render if it wasn't the completed design?" And yet, if they are still updating the renders for the characters, they can change the box art too.

This seems quite likely indeed! Thanks! This is quite reassuring.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Referred to the her time with the POTUS as reminder her of the little mushroom guy.
I suggest a google. It is a worthy read. And relevant!

Imagine having a political climate so ****ing toxic that we’re comparing the president’s penis to a Nintendo character

These renders are irrefutable proof to me that the Box Theory is pretty much dead. Everyone was like, "why would they release the box render if it wasn't the completed design?" And yet, if they are still updating the renders for the characters, they can change the box art too.

That doesn’t change the main point of the box theory, which is that they took the time to layout the box in a very specific design.

 

[PsySmasher]

Honestly, I kinda want a boatload of new characters/echoes/alt skins just so I can look at their renders.

 

[Q-Long]

Can't a guy want to look his best in the heat of the battle?

Toga Marth for Smash!

 

[Mc.Rad]

So where did these renders come from?

 

[Cosmic77]

Imagine having a political climate so ****ing toxic that we’re comparing the president’s penis to a Nintendo character

And...I think that's my cue to get off Smashboards for now.

Goodbye.

 

[Over9000BPM]

So does anyone think all this means I might actually get the Samus/Zamus I want?

Also, if Ike wants to wear blue eyeliner he can go right ahead, looks kinda good on him imo.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think the animation differences are what comes first. Sakurai chooses an echo on who would need to act differently, not to change a kit just the slightest bit. Lucina and Dark Pit were going to be alts but he decided that shouldn't be the case.

Does Olimar do anything in smash Alph wouldn't, that's a genuine question idk

I'd argue all of the taunts should be as different for Alph.
Also, Alph has a completely different ship, and so Olimar's final smash is as out of character as any other options.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Idk how people have this impression. Meta Knight is very good in smash 4 maybe because he's not broken anymore.

Then you know exactly how people have that impression. Going from broken to very good is a nerf.