Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[drag0nscythe]

I'm sorry, but that's literally confirmation bias.
There's nothing to suggest the fact that it's a DLC character.
Nothing from Verge has actually hinted or outright confirmed that.
You're cherry picking info to fit with the Box theory, when there's no basis to do so.
You either rely on Verge's claims, or use the box itself. Your debate immediately loses its grounds when you try to include both.

Also, keep in mind that the box is actually an unfinished mock-up.
The reason why we know this is because a cute dog isn't among the renders. Not to mention the fact we haven't seen the full design of the box.
Not to mention the game hasn't gone gold yet and that we're nowhere near the release of the game, so it's highly unlikely they would even know the full details of the roster to even point people towards it.

Those are the objective facts that heavily weigh against this theory.

In no way am I hoping against Incineroar or fighting against it.
I don't understand where you're coming from or how you even interpreted that.

What I'm saying is, I just don't straight up care for Incineroar.
There's many other innately unique and interesting Pokémon from that generation alone, that I and many other people would rather see just due to their individual potential for a unique moveset, as Incineroar doesn't share those innate traits or abilities.

And this isn't because I don't like the Pokémon.
I love Greninja in the mainline games, same with Lucario, but I could really care less about them in Smash itself.
I just find them boring in terms of play-style and moveset.

If he's in, that's fine. I'll just ignore him and never pick him, maybe outside of Classic mode.
I'm just saying if Sakurai wants to actually convince and sell me and the rest of the general audience on him, he should at least have a completely unique moveset that we haven't seen before.
Otherwise, I'm sure he's mostly going to be passed over in a lot of people's eyes.

I just would personally be content if we didn't get any new Pokémon.

There is nothing to suggest the character i on the base roster either. The fact that the Box, SmashDown, Music Theory, and CSS speculation all show 2 left, it is a obvious conclusion. Verge did not weigh in on the box, but he did not outright deny it either. If he was certain the SE character was in the base roster, he would have come down on it much harder than he did. As for cherry picking info, I am waiting for you show me what is cherry picked? Is it stil the SE character? That is one. What else is there. If anything, you are blatantly ignoring everything else to keep this false hope alive. It is a mock up for the box. But a very detailed one.

And you have not given me proof about the mock up box changing over time. Show me other games had their "mock ups" change after the official announcement. Did the Smash4 boxes change after going up on the store? Show me it happening in the past to back up your claim.

And those are not objective facts. Those are the same thing you have been saying for some time now. I have the box, css, and other theories to back up my claim. You do not. Still waiting for convincing evidence.

Want a good reason to believe that the box may be wrong? Well, it's simple: when has something like that ever happened in another Smash game?
Artwork can always change over time just to squeeze more material in. It's not like, let's say, NRS games (MK and Injustice), where the CSS confirms the full amount of characters in the base. Here's one pic of Injustice 2's CSS from old E3 2016 footage:

Spoiler: Big Image

And now, here's the post-release (pre-DLC) version of it:

Spoiler: Big Image

No big changes besides that new space in the center made for Darkseid.

If Smash has a habit like that, then yes, we could probably deduce the final amount of newcomers, but so far, there aren't any reasons to believe there's only two characters left in the roster.

This is proof that the CSS can change in the game. Which we did see with Melee. But it is not proof that the box will. But, it is a fair concept to think about. I still love playing with CSS design. I have one that makes alot of sense, but if someone comes up with a better one (with the order being the character appearance) then I may change my mind on the 2 only limit, but until then, everything looks to be pointing to 2 left.

 

[osby]

On one hand, yeah it is a little disrespectful.
But on the other hand, It can tell us to hamper our expectations... Imagine if incineroar wasn't leaked? People would've been more mad then they are now...

I mean, Dark Pit and R.O.B. were also leaked, and people still whined about them. We don't know the reception Incineroar will get.

 

[NintenRob]

Honestly I feel like we're in a similar situation we were between E3 2014 and the Robin trailer, when Gematsu was absolutely unbreakable. Chorus Kids, Chrom and Shulk were our remaining newcomers.

Thankfully we had Captain Falcon come and revitalise everything in glorious fashion, I hope something similar happens again. Because it just feels like this speculation period is a lot less fun.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Ok...Can we break the silence now? The silence is really killing me!
Lets try to talk a bit more about CoroCoro thing. Why did the magazine say 108 and not 103? Could there be really more stages? It's very unlikely for that magazine to make a printing error, for the record.

I wouldn't say it's unlikely magazines like CoroCoro can make mistakes--they do happen. My question is, how long does a correction to these types of errors take to be addressed? If it's not corrected, it lends credence to it being an accidental leak. Regardless if it was a misprint or not, I still believe we'll be getting more stages.

For anyone wondering, I had the displeasure of having Verg comment on one of my topics on Gamefaqs
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77011618

Verge is proof that even assholes can be credible sources of information. I never liked his attitude, felt unprofessional, but after Simon's revealed I was convinced he had correct information. Always trusted him over Loz, even though both have their issues. My only disappointment with his leaks is personal--outside of Minecraft and Simon, his leaks have been pretty boring. Makes me wonder if we'll be ending on a whimper after all.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I mean, Dark Pit and R.O.B. were also leaked, and people still whined about them. We don't know the reception Incineroar will get.

Yeah, I remember the sheer hatred being directed ROB's way, it was frankly scary. Especially when people mistook him for the Star Fox ROB.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I mean, Dark Pit and R.O.B. were also leaked, and people still whined about them. We don't know the reception Incineroar will get.

And ROB was awesome. I was not happy with Dark Pit, but I was also on the Ridley bandwagon hard.
But, I like Dark Pit now. I think is Side B is much better than Pits.

 

[AzureFlame4]

All this current time of speculation is doing is revealing who is pessimistic and who is optimistic. That's really all box theory does because it means nothing. Sakurai has been doing so much to keep leaks from happening but he went ahead and told the guy who designed the box who all was in?

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Honestly I feel like we're in a similar situation we were between E3 2014 and the Robin trailer, when Gematsu was absolutely unbreakable. Chorus Kids, Chrom and Shulk were our remaining newcomers.

Thankfully we had Captain Falcon come and revitalise everything in glorious fashion, I hope something similar happens again. Because it just feels like this speculation period is a lot less fun.

I'm assuming you're mad just because one of your most wanted characters didn't make it in it right?

 

[Nekoo]

Thankfully we had Captain Falcon come and revitalise everything in glorious fashion

As a Chrom fan and supporter. I'm readying my pitchforks right the **** now.

 

[Deleted member]

Inb4 "Verg said K.Rool wasn't playable!"

Seriously, this isn't even about liking leaks or not, if you don't believe Verg at this point you're only setting yourself up for disappointment(or not if you're a skeptical Incineroar/Ken fan). Deny or hate him all you want, it won't change the end result, and when that happens, don't come complaining.
And if there's more than what Verg claimed? Be free to laugh at me all you want, I'd be way too busy being pleasantly surprised.

 

[drag0nscythe]

As a Chrom fan and supporter. I'm readying my pitchforks right the **** now.

That needs to be a Smash Event.

Payback: Chrom must take down Captain Falcon for knocking him out of the Smash 4 roster. Can Chrom do it, or will Captain Falcon stay victorious?

Inb4 "Verg said K.Rool wasn't playable!"

Seriously, this isn't even about liking leaks or not, if you don't believe Verg at this point you're only setting yourself up for disappointment(or not if you're a skeptical Incineroar/Ken fan). Deny or hate him all you want, it won't change the end result, and when that happens, don't come complaining.
And if there's more than what Verg claimed? Be free to laugh at me all you want, I'd be way too busy being pleasantly surprised.

The big thing I will say is this, I am going in Hard on the Box Theory because it makes the most sense to me, but if I am wrong, I am going to be happy. I still want Bandanna Dee, space for Goemon and as many characters as we can get because I love smash.

But, If I am right, I am still going to be gracious and happy for what we have. Still am right now. 72 is not a bad number and with More promised in the future, we are good.

 

[praline]

I wouldn't say it's unlikely magazines like CoroCoro can make mistakes--they do happen. My question is, how long does a correction to these types of errors take to be addressed? If it's not corrected, it lends credence to it being an accidental leak. Regardless if it was a misprint or not, I still believe we'll be getting more stages.



Verge is proof that even ******** can be credible sources of information. I never liked his attitude, felt unprofessional, but after Simon's revealed I was convinced he had correct information. Always trusted him over Loz, even though both have their issues. My only disappointment with his leaks is personal--outside of Minecraft and Simon, his leaks have been pretty boring. Makes me wonder if we'll be ending on a whimper after all.

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

 

[osby]

And ROB was awesome. I was not happy with Dark Pit, but I was also on the Ridley bandwagon hard.
But, I like Dark Pit now. I think is Side B is much better than Pits.

Sad things is, Dark Pit would probably get A LOT less slack if he was in this game, now that echoes are a thing.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Sad things is, Dark Pit would probably get A LOT less slack if he was in this game, now that echoes are a thing.

Probably. I see the anger fading now though. Just like how ROB had suffered in Brawl, and Pichu in Melee, and Jigglypuff in Smash64. I see the hate fading. Those poeple cannot sustain it given Ultimates tagline and everything we have.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

Dont' assume to speak for everyone. I was pretty flippin' hype about Olimar.

 

[osby]

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

Inaccurate, last character in Smash 64 was Jigglypuff.

 

[AzureFlame4]

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

Olimar was one of the two hypest characters for me in Brawl.

 

[praline]

Dont' assume to speak for everyone. I was pretty flippin' hype about Olimar.

When did I say I was speaking for everyone?

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

I don't know... I was super excited when I found out that Duck Hunt was in Smash 4...

 

[CosmicQuark]

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

Which is why I usually say that there's precedent for it ending on a whimper. But, Ultimate cannot be one-to-one compared to the other games. First, it's Ultimate. It's being framed differently than the other games, and a lot of assumptions we would usually make about the game has been and could be wrong. Second, every character will be revealed prior to release, which means we may see a different strategy in marketing. And third, it's a much shorter announcement schedule than the other games, and again, their strategy may be changed appropriately. It's very possible, maybe even likely, that the last few characters will be anticlimactic. But by no means a guarantee.

 

[MrSmashFour]

Inb4 "Verg said K.Rool wasn't playable!"

Seriously, this isn't even about liking leaks or not, if you don't believe Verg at this point you're only setting yourself up for disappointment(or not if you're a skeptical Incineroar/Ken fan). Deny or hate him all you want, it won't change the end result, and when that happens, don't come complaining.
And if there's more than what Verg claimed? Be free to laugh at me all you want, I'd be way too busy being pleasantly surprised.

Verg is nothing.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

Was Shulk the last revealed newcomer for Smash 4?

 

[osby]

Dont' assume to speak for everyone. I was pretty flippin' hype about Olimar.

I was too, and I was really excited about Shulk, but they are not high profile as most of the other newcomers. Granted, for some reason, people expect more from last reveals. Like, was Olimar really less big than Ike or Pit?

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

Leaks are strange when it comes to Smash Bros. I can imagine Sakurai and the team detests leaks for a project as massive as this one, be they accidental or deliberate, yet us fans want to gobble them up to try and get more discussion to try and piece our ideas together for this game before the final roster is fully revealed.

True, there have been some leaks for this game, but thankfully we've yet to see anything as disastrous as the ESRB leak back in Smash 4. At the moment, I'm trying to be a mix of realistic and hopeful. The realistic me is thinking we'll get two more characters and none of them are Isaac and he's forever ignored again, but the hopeful me is thinking Isaac might still have a decent chance.

But even if these so-called leaks and theories do end up true and Isaac isn't here, what do I really lose on? Several of my favourite veterans are here like Roy, Cloud, Shulk, and then some of my most wanted newcomers like Ridley, Inklings and King K. Rool. I think either way, I'll still end up enjoying this game day one. unless the final reveal is freakin' Steve...

Every Smash ended with the last reveal being anticlimactic.

I was personally very pleased about Shulk being in the game since he was amongst my most wanted. Of course, it was a bitter-sweet pill since none of the others I wanted like Ridley or Roy made it in 4's base roster. If this box-theory ends up true and Incineroar is amongst the last characters, then I've at least had about 2 months to toss the idea over in my head and not be too disappointed.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

When did I say I was speaking for everyone?

When you worded it as a definite statement instead of "I found the last reveals to be anti-climatic" or "At large the community found the final reveals anti-climatic".

 

[CosmicQuark]

I was too, and I was really excited about Shulk, but they are not high profile as most of the other newcomers. Granted, for some reason, people expect more from last reveals. Like, was Olimar really less big than Ike or Pit?

People expect more as it's generally good to start and end on your highest note, leaving the less interesting parts in the middle. However, marketing is a very different beast, overly complicated, and so it's difficult to really predict how they'll approach it.

Also, it's impossible anyways for them to end too big this time, regardless. Ridley's already announced.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk was only disappointing because he was leaked by ESRB, had he not been, the Xenoblade fanbase would have exploded with his announcement, especially after Robin threw doubt at Gematsu.

 

[NintenRob]

Inb4 "Verg said K.Rool wasn't playable!"

Seriously, this isn't even about liking leaks or not, if you don't believe Verg at this point you're only setting yourself up for disappointment(or not if you're a skeptical Incineroar/Ken fan). Deny or hate him all you want, it won't change the end result, and when that happens, don't come complaining.
And if there's more than what Verg claimed? Be free to laugh at me all you want, I'd be way too busy being pleasantly surprised.

We've had much bigger and way more credible leaks go down than Verg. It's certainly possible

We've got 9 newcomers so far, Verg got only 3 of them. 1 was a common guess and the other just obvious to begin with.

Simon I'll give him credit for, especially since he said him before E3.

And then some veteran info, no cuts and a couple returning faces. But he still missed a lot of returning cut veterans.

Compare that to Gematsu

Before Robin, 8/9 for all the characters. The only newcomer missed was Rosalina. He was also very vague with Greninja just stating Pokemon X/Y (which Sakurai admitted Greninja was a placeholder) and thanks to a Rhythm Heaven enemy in Smash Run and correctly getting the names of Mii Fighters. Everything pointed in his favour. IT WAS INDESTRUCTIBLE


FALCON PUNCH!!!

 

[osby]

People expect more as it's generally good to start and end on your highest note, leaving the less interesting parts in the middle. However, marketing is a very different beast, overly complicated, and so it's difficult to really predict how they'll approach it.

Also, it's impossible anyways for them to end too big this time, regardless. Ridley's already announced.

Yeah, yeah, Ridley is nice and all but when are we getting the better and bigger Metroid villain?

Mother Brain for Smash!

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Was Shulk the last revealed newcomer for Smash 4?

Yeah, Shulk was the last one revealed before Smash 3DS. Then Bowser Jr was given a trailer before Smash WiiU and then Duck Hunt got one shortly after.

Speaking of Shulk and Olimar, it seems a little odd to go from ending on one last new series to an additional 3rd party/another Pokemon but we've been burned by looking for patterns before.

 

[Freduardo]

When Verg is wrong, then we'll talk.


Until that happens, he's been 100% right with his Smash predictions.


And Ken is way more iconic of a character than Shadow, not even going to hold any punches. He's the grandfather of what all Echo fighters are.

I was trying to delete this post. Not post it.

But yes, I wish to agree that Ken is more recognizable and iconic than Shadow.

The sonic fan community is loud.

That doesn’t mean it’s more populous that a fan community that has had regular tournaments for 30 years.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Dont' assume to speak for everyone. I was pretty flippin' hype about Olimar.

Olimar was one of the two hypest characters for me in Brawl.

And this is where I hate the "That can't be it, that's too anticlimactic!" That's subjective. Pokemon is a huge series and Ken is a third party, how would they
not be exciting for people?

It's only because it's not one of the characters people have been hyping themselves over, but that's literally no one's fault but yourself (and certain leakers).

Also imo it's a very echo chambered sentiment. Who knows if the majority of Japanese Smash fans might be more excited about a Pokemon reveal than Isaac or Geno. And btw, I do think we will have a direct that reveals Incineroar, Ken and then teases Geno for dlc. Those three are hype enough until release. (I just really hope that we don't have to wait until November for that :/)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I've been thinking lately about Nintendo newcomers and honestly, I realized that Nintendo's magic is fading in that department, we already have all the major Nintendo characters and a bunch of extras. We're likely only getting some popular extras or promotional characters from Nintendo. I think Sakurai knows this as he said the console wars are silly back when he talked about Cloud and in the presentation he called it the biggest crossover in gaming. Wonder how Sakurai feels about something that would seem impossoble in any other industry

 

[osby]

Yeah, Shulk was the last one revealed before Smash 3DS. Then Bowser Jr was given a trailer before Smash WiiU and then Duck Hunt got one shortly after.

Speaking of Shulk and Olimar, it seems a little odd to go from ending on one last new series to an additional 3rd party/another Pokemon but we've been burned by looking for patterns before.

Tbh, Ultimate isn't very generous with new Nintendo IPs at all. We got Inkling and that's all.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

We've had much bigger and way more credible leaks go down than Verg. It's certainly possible

We've got 9 newcomers so far, Verg got only 3 of them. 1 was a common guess and the other just obvious to begin with.

Simon I'll give him credit for, especially since he said him before E3.

And then some veteran info, no cuts and a couple returning faces. But he still missed a lot of returning cut veterans.

Compare that to Gematsu

Before Robin, 8/9 for all the characters. The only newcomer missed was Rosalina. He was also very vague with Greninja just stating Pokemon X/Y (which Sakurai admitted Greninja was a placeholder) and thanks to a Rhythm Heaven enemy in Smash Run and correctly getting the names of Mii Fighters. Everything pointed in his favour. IT WAS INDESTRUCTIBLE


FALCON PUNCH!!!

Verge has multiple sources... He doesn't outright say a character is in the game until he hears it from his main sources. And he's leaked characters in other fighting games before. He leaked The TMNT in injustice.
Also, pretty sure the Gemastu Leaks were legitimate information, but ended up being outdated.
If you don't believe the Vergeben Leaks, you're setting yourself up for massive disappointment. He's been right way more than he has been wrong.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I still think it's strange that if the box theory if true that they'd let such a thing slip through.

Unless the Japanese headlines in the next few days read "Graphics Designer found beaten to death with Gamecube Controller, Smash Bros Director held for questioning."

 

[bigblast181]

Something about the box theory I haven't seen anyone talking about is a potential reason for the space on the other side. Since the space is found in the last row rather than anywhere else, it leaves one space on each side (if we include Isabelle). Designwise having that symmetry is better than leaving two empty spaces on the side we see.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Something about the box theory I haven't seen anyone talking about is a potential reason for the space on the other side. Since the space is found in the last row rather than anywhere else, it leaves one space on each side (if we include Isabelle). Designwise having that symmetry is better than leaving two empty spaces on the side we see.

It's speculated to be Ken because of a pattern that gets broken in the row Ryu would be on but Ken would fix

 

[PLATINUM7]

I was trying to delete this post. Not post it.

But yes, I wish to agree that Ken is more recognizable and iconic than Shadow.

The sonic fan community is loud.

That doesn’t mean it’s more populous that a fan community that has had regular tournaments for 30 years.

A character from a series in a genre that's mostly niche outside the most dedicated gamers vs a character from a series thats total sales nearly triple the other series.

The Sonic series probably seems loud because it's more successful and has more fans. No way is dark Sonic less recognisable than red karate man.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Tbh, Ultimate isn't very generous with new Nintendo IPs at all. We got Inkling and that's all.

I think that's why the hopes for Isaac/Felix/Matthew are so high, bolstered by the 108 stages thing.