Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Guynamednelson]

Ken is iconic af in his own series and in gaming history, he's literally Mr. Clone Character himself.
Street Fighter without Ken would be like Sonic the Hedgehog without Tails

Chun-Li is still a more iconic character. She just couldn't be an echo.

 

[Luigi The President]

Man, since this box thing came out, we've just been going in circles. I kinda just want another character announcement just to end this roundabout discussion.

I'm not up on all of Vergeben's stuff, but didn't he say a while back that there were at least a half dozen other unique newcomers beyond Ridley/Simon/Incineroar/Isabelle? Or is that bunk?

I just can't see them driving the hype train into the station with only a character and a half before release, when they just nonchalantly dropped two uniques and three echoes on us in August - oh, and about 20 or so new stages. If the last direct is riding solely on Spirits mode, Incineroar, and Ken, it'll be really tough to live up to the August hype.


...so, Smash as it is currently? Welp, I for one am ready for Miles to get in.

He stated AT LEAST 6 newcomers post-E3. That means after Ridley.

 

[AnOkayDM]

It doesn't matter, Duck Hunt was already officially known to the public because Smash 3ds was already available before Mewtwo was known.




Please see my above comment

That's irrelevant. Mewtwo was officially revealed before Duck Hunt was officially revealed.

 

[Nethermoosen]

It's also possible that if it is Geno, and he get's it wrong, he'll get abuse anyway. The lead he has about the name is from a "random" person, while the character being from SE is from a source he doubts would be wrong. He never said anything about Incineroar until loz18 leaked his PM. In fact, he wasn't sure about Incineroar until his recent info, as before now he has said that only one of his sources told him Incineroar.

Will someone link him the new Vergeben leak?

Vergeben announced yesterday that Incineroar was finally corroborated by all of his sources, my good man.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Except, he's positive it's Incineroar. He noted all his sources have confirmed it is Incineroar.
Please show me where he says it's to avoid online abuse as all I've seen is that it's simply a potentially false lead.

Wish I could but for the life of me can't find it. I remember it popping up here a couple.... idk 100 pages ago, about that he has heard a name from one source but doesn't want to share yet to avoid abuse if it turns out false.

 

[Shroob]

Man, since this box thing came out, we've just been going in circles. I kinda just want another character announcement just to end this roundabout discussion.

I'm not up on all of Vergeben's stuff, but didn't he say a while back that there were at least a half dozen other unique newcomers beyond Ridley/Simon/Incineroar/Isabelle? Or is that bunk?

I just can't see them driving the hype train into the station with only a character and a half before release, when they just nonchalantly dropped two uniques and three echoes on us in August - oh, and about 20 or so new stages. If the last direct is riding solely on Spirits mode, Incineroar, and Ken, it'll be really tough to live up to the August hype.


...so, Smash as it is currently? Welp, I for one am ready for Miles to get in.

He never said unique.

He said "About half a dozen more."

That's it. People assumed he meant unique because "Hurrrr Echoes aren't real characters" when he himself said he didn't know if that included echoes or not.

 

[Iridium]

Also, CT (Clash Tournaments) also apparently tried some matches with CPUs. Check this out.

Seriously though, CPUs definitely seem to play more aggressive overall, and I like that. Check out Samus in particular.

 

[Luigi The President]

Wish I could but for the life of me can't find it. I remember it popping up here a couple.... idk 100 pages ago, about that he has heard a name but doesn't want to share yet to avoid abuse if it turns out false.

Unfortunately this is the kinda matter where I can't take you at your word. It'd be great if you can dig it up somehow but I don't recall him saying this.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Just waking up. Oh, we're still talking about boxes? Let me know when anything interesting pops...

Pong is killable lmao

YOU CAN KILL PONG pic.twitter.com/WrnulrONdc

— wehngo (@wehngo_smacks) September 16, 2018

Oh my.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Man, since this box thing came out, we've just been going in circles. I kinda just want another character announcement just to end this roundabout discussion.

I'm not up on all of Vergeben's stuff, but didn't he say a while back that there were at least a half dozen other unique newcomers beyond Ridley/Simon/Incineroar/Isabelle? Or is that bunk?

I just can't see them driving the hype train into the station with only a character and a half before release, when they just nonchalantly dropped two uniques and three echoes on us in August - oh, and about 20 or so new stages. If the last direct is riding solely on Spirits mode, Incineroar, and Ken, it'll be really tough to live up to the August hype.


...so, Smash as it is currently? Welp, I for one am ready for Miles to get in.

This is what I thought. I though he said UNIQUE specifically. Omega Tyrant assures me this was never clarified and all he said was “new” and then people took it out of proportion.

It’s still never been shown to me and I can’t find the link or page. So, I just ignore it for now.

Edit: But many have made, or are making it clear that he never stated unique.

 

[monadoboy]

So what I've gathered from the box and vegetable is that speculation is dead and this is basically it?
It was fun while it lasted I guess.

 

[Iridium]

Pong is killable lmao

YOU CAN KILL PONG pic.twitter.com/WrnulrONdc

— wehngo (@wehngo_smacks) September 16, 2018

Imagine how angry fans would be if you could kill Lyn, although she barely does anything.

 

[Shroob]

This is what I thought. I though he said UNIQUE specifically. Omega Tyrant assures me this was never clarified and all he said was “new” and then people took it out of proportion.

It’s still never been shown to me and I can’t find the link or page. So, I just ignore it for now.

Edit: But many have made, or are making it clear that he never stated unique.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Kappa/comments/8k0li1/comment/e0pemqo



Right here.

 

[Starbound]

Actually hold on I think it could actually be Agnes lmao.

1. Vergeben doesn't want to say who the character is. If it's Agnes, who is honestly one of the biggest jokes in the community after the Agnes leak, Vergeben saying it's actually Agnes would cause a great deal of ire towards himself because the community is angry it isn't Geno because why would it, instead, be this laughing stock of the speculation community? It's leaker suicide for Vergeben to say it's Agnes because it immediately leads people to doubt what he's saying due to association with the Agnes leak.

2. Other options Sakurai considered (not planned) for Cloud's spot was Onion Knight, who had a class changing gimmick. He even said "that might work" after saying the idea. And this time, we get a real character rather than an avatar like Onion Knight.

3. Sakurai's Nintendo Dream interview about Bayonetta mentions that being Nintendo exclusive makes negotiations easier (it's on Source Gaming, part 2). Both Bravely games are exclusives, and Square has talked about a third one coming sometime (presumably after KH3 is done and FF7 remake is underway). This is probably why Bayo comes from Bayo 2 on the website, because that's the exclusive game.

4. Speaking of Bayonetta, the Bayonetta and Bravely Default actually have a lot of commonalities. They are nicher franchises coming from their producers, so they don't compare well with the legendary lineup we have in Smash. As you all know, Nintendo publishing Bayonetta 2 was the only way the game could get published. But did you also know that the only way Bravely Second would've released internationally is if Nintendo published it as well? Nintendo has a vested interest in this series and sees the potential no one else does.

5. Bravely Default hype was at its peak during the 2013-2016 period when the games were being released. Internationally, the first game was released in 2014 and the second was released in Japan in early 2015. These are crucial dates because the ballot started at this time. And you know what other game released around this time? Bayonetta 2. I'm not suggesting that Agnes tops the popularity polls because I'm convinced she doesn't. But we don't know what the actual ballot results looked. I know things suggested Bayo may not have been the ballot character due to being planned after two weeks, but it's still feasible she did well, especially at first when led Sakurai to go with her.

Now it wouldn't have to be Agnes and could be anyone in the cast, but I think she's probably the pick due to being the most important in the first game due to her prominence on the boxart. Given that the concept is class switching rather than innate abilities, it's possible that they pull an Alph and have Agnes, Ringabel, Tiz and Edea each with two costumes.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Unfortunately this is the kinda matter where I can't take you at your word. It'd be great if you can dig it up somehow but I don't recall him saying this.

"I really would like to say who the random person said the Square Enix character is. but if it isn't them, I have to deal with a whole other slew of hatred and harassment from people even though I am outright saying I've contacted my people to see if there is anything to what that person is claiming."

Found it

 

[T-Hell]

So what I've gathered from the box and vegetable is that speculation is dead and this is basically it?
It was fun while it lasted I guess.

There's the CoroCoro saying there are 108 stages too. It hasn't been deconfirmed yet.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Except, he's positive it's Incineroar. He noted all his sources have confirmed it is Incineroar.
Please show me where he says it's to avoid online abuse as all I've seen is that it's simply a potentially false lead.

This is the post he's (probably) referring to:

Edit: 'd

 

[Nethermoosen]

Just waking up. Oh, we're still talking about boxes? Let me know when anything interesting pops...



Oh my.

Verg now is dead set on Incineroar and is going to ask whether or not his SE rep is base roster. So he’s basically helping us solve the Box Theory. Hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Noipoi]

So what I've gathered from the box and vegetable is that speculation is dead and this is basically it?
It was fun while it lasted I guess.

It ain't over until the morbidly obese lady sings.
...
Or when the game comes out.

 

[Luigi The President]

"I really would like to say who the random person said the Square Enix character is. but if it isn't them, I have to deal with a whole other slew of hatred and harassment from people even though I am outright saying I've contacted my people to see if there is anything to what that person is claiming."

Found it

Thank you.

This can go either way. He knows very well Geno's the behemoth still standing beyond any other behemoth which is why he'd get hate if he were wrong.
Or it could be freakin' Noctis and that's why he'd get hate if it were real.

Hm.

 

[PLATINUM7]

Actually hold on I think it could actually be Agnes lmao.

1. Vergeben doesn't want to say who the character is. If it's Agnes, who is honestly one of the biggest jokes in the community after the Agnes leak, Vergeben saying it's actually Agnes would cause a great deal of ire towards himself because the community is angry it isn't Geno because why would it, instead, be this laughing stock of the speculation community? It's leaker suicide for Vergeben to say it's Agnes because it immediately leads people to doubt what he's saying due to association with the Agnes leak.

2. Other options Sakurai considered (not planned) for Cloud's spot was Onion Knight, who had a class changing gimmick. He even said "that might work" after saying the idea. And this time, we get a real character rather than an avatar like Onion Knight.

3. Sakurai's Nintendo Dream interview about Bayonetta mentions that being Nintendo exclusive makes negotiations easier (it's on Source Gaming, part 2). Both Bravely games are exclusives, and Square has talked about a third one coming sometime (presumably after KH3 is done and FF7 remake is underway). This is probably why Bayo comes from Bayo 2 on the website, because that's the exclusive game.

4. Speaking of Bayonetta, the Bayonetta and Bravely Default actually have a lot of commonalities. They are nicher franchises coming from their producers, so they don't compare well with the legendary lineup we have in Smash. As you all know, Nintendo publishing Bayonetta 2 was the only way the game could get published. But did you also know that the only way Bravely Second would've released internationally is if Nintendo published it as well? Nintendo has a vested interest in this series and sees the potential no one else does.

5. Bravely Default hype was at its peak during the 2013-2016 period when the games were being released. Internationally, the first game was released in 2014 and the second was released in Japan in early 2015. These are crucial dates because the ballot started at this time. And you know what other game released around this time? Bayonetta 2. I'm not suggesting that Agnes tops the popularity polls because I'm convinced she doesn't. But we don't know what the actual ballot results looked. I know things suggested Bayo may not have been the ballot character due to being planned after two weeks, but it's still feasible she did well, especially at first when led Sakurai to go with her.

Now it wouldn't have to be Agnes and could be anyone in the cast, but I think she's probably the pick due to being the most important in the first game due to her prominence on the boxart. Given that the concept is class switching rather than innate abilities, it's possible that they pull an Alph and have Agnes, Ringabel, Tiz and Edea each with two costumes.

2. Wasn't it Bartz who Sakurai brought up with the class changing?

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

Thank you.

This can go either way. He knows very well Geno's the behemoth still standing beyond any other behemoth which is why he'd get hate if he were wrong.
Or it could be freakin' Noctis and that's why he'd get hate if it were real.

Hm.

I certainly don't blame the guy one way or another, I'm just saying it doesn't bring me much comfort for the Geno boys lmao

 

[TheCJBrine]

"but if it isn't them"

Geno confirmed.

 

[praline]

Actually hold on I think it could actually be Agnes lmao.

1. Vergeben doesn't want to say who the character is. If it's Agnes, who is honestly one of the biggest jokes in the community after the Agnes leak, Vergeben saying it's actually Agnes would cause a great deal of ire towards himself because the community is angry it isn't Geno because why would it, instead, be this laughing stock of the speculation community? It's leaker suicide for Vergeben to say it's Agnes because it immediately leads people to doubt what he's saying due to association with the Agnes leak.

2. Other options Sakurai considered (not planned) for Cloud's spot was Onion Knight, who had a class changing gimmick. He even said "that might work" after saying the idea. And this time, we get a real character rather than an avatar like Onion Knight.

3. Sakurai's Nintendo Dream interview about Bayonetta mentions that being Nintendo exclusive makes negotiations easier (it's on Source Gaming, part 2). Both Bravely games are exclusives, and Square has talked about a third one coming sometime (presumably after KH3 is done and FF7 remake is underway). This is probably why Bayo comes from Bayo 2 on the website, because that's the exclusive game.

4. Speaking of Bayonetta, the Bayonetta and Bravely Default actually have a lot of commonalities. They are nicher franchises coming from their producers, so they don't compare well with the legendary lineup we have in Smash. As you all know, Nintendo publishing Bayonetta 2 was the only way the game could get published. But did you also know that the only way Bravely Second would've released internationally is if Nintendo published it as well? Nintendo has a vested interest in this series and sees the potential no one else does.

5. Bravely Default hype was at its peak during the 2013-2016 period when the games were being released. Internationally, the first game was released in 2014 and the second was released in Japan in early 2015. These are crucial dates because the ballot started at this time. And you know what other game released around this time? Bayonetta 2. I'm not suggesting that Agnes tops the popularity polls because I'm convinced she doesn't. But we don't know what the actual ballot results looked. I know things suggested Bayo may not have been the ballot character due to being planned after two weeks, but it's still feasible she did well, especially at first when led Sakurai to go with her.

Now it wouldn't have to be Agnes and could be anyone in the cast, but I think she's probably the pick due to being the most important in the first game due to her prominence on the boxart. Given that the concept is class switching rather than innate abilities, it's possible that they pull an Alph and have Agnes, Ringabel, Tiz and Edea each with two costumes.

I hope if it is Agnes that there’s alts for Tiz, Edea and Ringabel.

 

[Starbound]

They may (used very strongly here). Like with EVO it could be a first for everything so who knows. Capcom is supposed to be unveiling info there about other games, so I could totally see Ken being unvield here to Capcoms benefit, so keep a lookout. Other than that, maybe Smash info does come directly from Nintendo

Capcom is there for Ace Attorney so I doubt they'll bring up Ken.

...unless that 40 minute 'unmissable' presentation is a Street Fighter x Ace Attorney game!

2. Wasn't it Bartz who Sakurai brought up with the class changing?

I don't remember which one but he did bring up Bartz and Onion Knight. It doesn't really matter which one but the point is that he thought of class changing.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I certainly don't blame the guy one way or another, I'm just saying it doesn't bring me much comfort for the Geno boys lmao

Perspective is weird. I feel like he heard it IS Geno and knows how bad it would be if Geno was the ONLY one he got wrong. If it’s Geno, he must be ABSOLUTELY positive it’s correct.

 

[Momotsuki]

Y'know what be cool? What if, when you play as Isabelle on the Town and City stage, while the date is December 20th, K.K. Birthday is the song that plays regardless of settings?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Capcom is there for Ace Attorney so I doubt they'll bring up Ken.

...unless that 40 minute 'unmissable' presentation is a Street Fighter x Ace Attorney game!


I don't remember which one but he did bring up Bartz and Onion Knight. It doesn't really matter which one but the point is that he thought of class changing.

He brought up Bartz and Terra.

 

[Noipoi]

Y'know what be cool? What if, when you play as Isabelle on the Town and City stage, while the date is December 20th, K.K. Birthday is the song that plays regardless of settings?

It's the little things that count.

 

[Starbound]

He brought up Bartz and Terra.

"if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work? Maybe they could change jobs or something… Actually, that would be kind of interesting (laughs). "

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

Did he bring up Terra in another interview?

 

[Shroob]

Honestly, while I don't agree with it.


Music theory lines up with Verg.


We've still yet to get a Pokemon remix, and Ken is exempt because 'lol echo'.


If we don't have a Pokemon Remix by whenever the next Direct is coming, we know a Pokemon newcomer is nearing.



The fact they went out of their way to adjust the Animal Crossing song to THIS week presumably due to the delay and Isabelle kind of informs me that "Yes, music DOES matter."

 

[Momotsuki]

It's the little things that count.

Honestly with the sheer attention to detail possessed by Sora Ltd., I wouldn't doubt it as a possibility.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

So what I've gathered from the box and vegetable is that speculation is dead and this is basically it?
It was fun while it lasted I guess.

We still have DLCs

 

[PLATINUM7]

"if we were to limit our choices to characters who appeared on a Nintendo console, we’d end up with Bartz from FFV or the Onion Knight from FFIII—how would that work? Maybe they could change jobs or something… Actually, that would be kind of interesting (laughs). "

https://sourcegaming.info/2016/02/23/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-2/

Did he bring up Terra in another interview?

The previous part of the interview.

 

[Iridium]

Wait, has anyone heard Isabelle's voice, if she has one (in Smash)? I don't think I've heard it, specifically in any gameplay.

 

[vaanrose]

Clearing up some confusion about Verg.

He's heard the existence of a Square Enix character from a source he trusts. But not who that character is.

Someone else he does not yet trust gave him a name, but because he doesn't have any reason to believe them just yet, he's holding off on stating that name.

That's really all there is to it.

The Square Enix rep is true, I am not aware who exactly it is yet as I have said before.

I heard a name from someone recently as to who it might be, but it came from someone claiming to know it along with "confirming" other information that I had heard. They might just be trying to fool me into believing what they are saying so that I say it to mess with me and try to harm my credibility so I'm not going to say who they claim it is until I get responses back from my sources that point in a direction proving whether or not there is anything to what they are saying.

The Square Enix character that I heard about is an interesting exception in all of this when it comes to the box theory and my knowledge of there being a character of theirs comes from someone who's never had a habit of being wrong.

 

[Nethermoosen]

So what I've gathered from the box and vegetable is that speculation is dead and this is basically it?
It was fun while it lasted I guess.

Still not a hard confirm. Things lined up across several mediums of info and we’re waiting on a real confirmation.

 

[Shroob]

I’m not really clear on how music theory works. Please enlighten.

The rule of thumb from what I understand is "If a song appears on the website, that franchise isn't getting a non-echo newcomer, franchises that get newcomers get their song AFTER their newcomer reveal"


This seems like ridiculously flimsy logic, but they moved the Animal Crossing song due to the delay because.....? Why? Isabelle didn't have a new remix in her trailer, and I highly doubt anyone would have been suspicious if they threw up an AC track on the site.


We've yet to get a Pokemon remix to this day.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, has anyone heard Isabelle's voice, if she has one (in Smash)? I don't think I've heard it, specifically in any gameplay.

We haven't really heard it in gameplay, but it'll probably just be her gibberish voice from Animal Crossing. That's what they used at the beginning and end of the trailer, and I can't imagine her sounding different.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I really hope we get Ken's stage in Ultimate.

Having the car from the bonus stage on the far left of the stage could make for some amusing shenanigans.