Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Shroob]

It also doesn’t make much sense from a marketing standpoint to have two characters to show off for the next 3 months of wait time after showing off multiple in the first Direct, yet here we seem to be.

We also have Singleplayer and 5 more stages apparently but even Sakurai knows that people come for the characters first and foremost.

I'm not saying the box theory is right.


But I'm saying they're going to show every playable character on the box because that's clearly what they intend to do with this design. They're not going to have 72 characters on the box and just 'stop' even if there are more characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree. I’d say us getting 5 more stages is probably the case. I don’t understand why that has anything to do with the box theory though..

I think mainly because out of those five stages, we would most likely have to have at least three of them be delegated to representing either new franchises or characters. Geno, a new Pokemon and Isaac would be a good example, which would then mean there'd be more than two characters than what the whole "Box Theory" has stated.

 

[Zippo]

If the box theory is true, and if Incineroar is the last new character, I'll say that it does make a bit of sense for one reason, he would be the most recent character (His debut was November 2016) featured in Smash, making him the last chronologically, it's a cool little point I could see Sakurai mentioning. Ken being the last echo fighter revealed is also a neat thing to mention because of how important he is, he's considered by many to be the original echo fighter.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Do the people creating these boxes have advance knowledge of what characters we're getting?

I feel like their primary purpose is to sell the product and to look as realistic as possible, not necessarily to be accurate.

 

[Murlough]

I'm not saying the box theory is right.


But I'm saying they're going to show every playable character on the box because that's clearly what they intend to do with this design. They're not going to have 72 characters on the box and just 'stop' even if there are more characters.

Um, you lost me. Isn’t the paragraph the complete opposite of your first sentence?

I dunno. Its fine if thats what you think. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did have more characters and didn’t include them on the box. Its like, eh. Its just a box.

Edit: I feel like I’m trying to connect the dots using two different pages whilst expecting a cohesive image to be there when I’m done.

 

[Shroob]

Um, you lost me. Isn’t the paragraph the complete opposite of your first sentence?

I dunno. Its fine if thats what you think. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did have more characters and didn’t include them on the box. Its like, eh. Its just a box.

Your argument boils down to:

"Y no WiiU ver"

Mine is:

"This game is going to show all of its fighters pre-launch, the roster is playing a bigger role than it ever has before"


Unlike the WiiU version, where we didn't 'know' all the characters(Even though we did due to the 3DS version), there were unlockable characters.



Every character is going to be unlockable except for the original 8 this game, but at the same time, they're going to show off every character before launch.



I don't think I can simplify this anymore than I have already.

 

[Noipoi]

This thread is being torn apart.
Because of a box and a magazine.

God I love Smash speculation...

 

[ZephyrZ]

Um, you lost me. Isn’t the paragraph the complete opposite of your first sentence?

No, it isn't. It's possible for the box to be a mock up that doesn't feature every character while the final version still will.

 

[UberMadman]

I will say that as someone who believes that the box theory has a lot of legitimacy to it, it’s nice to get some official evidence that might suggest that it is wrong. Most of the efforts to refute it so far have basically boiled down to “the Ken spot was a bizarre coincidence and not intentional,” which seems like grasping at straws to me, but 5 unrevealed stages would certainly suggest that they would want to tie a couple of their announcements with currently unannounced characters, right? I’m just hoping that the number was not some mind of typo or miscommunication, which is also sadly within the realm of possibility.

 

[Nethermoosen]

Do the people creating these boxes have advance knowledge of what characters we're getting?

I feel like their primary purpose is to sell the product and to look as realistic as possible, not necessarily to be accurate.

Judging by the way they did it, it seems apparent that they at least had info on which characters would be where. Reason is because of the missing unknown on the other side(divined by the patterned “rule of nine”).

It is usually in their best interest to make a product’s mock up display as accurate as possible with the information they are given. The supposed echo in the other side is what makes it seem like they at least had some info, even if it was just the numbering.

 

[Murlough]

Your argument boils down to:

"Y no WiiU ver"

Mine is:

"This game is going to show all of its fighters pre-launch, the roster is playing a bigger role than it ever has before"


Unlike the WiiU version, where we didn't 'know' all the characters(Even though we did due to the 3DS version), there were unlockable characters.



Every character is going to be unlockable except for the original 8 this game, but at the same time, they're going to show off every character before launch.



I don't think I can simplify this anymore than I have already.

Yeah dude you are the one misunderstanding. I don’t need this simplified for me. I know exactly what you are saying and it really just boils down to “I think this” and nothing more.

I don’t have a reason to assume you are right. Yeah every character is gonna be revealed before the game is released. That doesn’t mean they decided to stop making characters so it looked nice on a friggin box no one gives a **** about once the game is in the console.

It literally exists to look nice and then be thrown away. There is no eason to think “yep if they can’t fit anymore characters on this piece of trash then there must not be any more characters!”

Even as a marketing standpoint its just terrible.

I’m going to bed now.

EDIT: and no that isn’t my argument it was one of my arguments that lasted for a single post and then I dropped it. But yes please do simplify things for me because clearly I’m not following your posts very well. Sheesh.

 

[papagenos]

Mostly because it'd be really odd to have every character up to #69 and whatever Echo has to be on the other side and to just 'stop'.

Like, if there are other characters after #69, why wouldn't they be on the box if 1-69 are?

actually wait i hadnt thought about this but if it is just ken (an echo with no # spot) and incineraor (#69)

that means in a game with a HUGE emphasis on number of characters and numbering the characters while NOT numbering the echos we end with 69???

we have vergeben saying ken/gen 7 pokemon/and a square rep, we have sakurai putting emphasis on the number of characters and this box theory means we have to leave out one of vergebens characters AND ends us at 69 instead of a clean "70"...

Please call out my geno bias here cause its in full swing but honestly: ken (#60echo) incineroar(#69) geno(#70) makes WAY more sense to me for how they could end this game and its STILL a small amount of remaining characters, fits with vergeben, goes with the box theory in only that it would stick geno on the back or something and make him the "special" last hype newcomer.

yes again geno bias but ending with "70 characters" and verge having three left has a lot of weight to it in my opinion.

 

[Shroob]

actually wait i hadnt thought about this but if it is just ken (an echo with no # spot) and incineraor (#69)

that means in a game with a HUGE emphasis on number of characters and numbering the characters while NOT numbering the echos we end with 69???

we have vergeben saying ken/gen 7 pokemon/and a square rep, we have sakurai putting emphasis on the number of characters and this box theory means we have to leave out one of vergebens characters AND ends us at 69 instead of a clean "70"...

Please call out my geno bias here cause its in full swing but honestly: ken (#60echo) incineroar(#69) geno(#70) makes WAY more sense to me for how they could end this game and its STILL a small amount of remaining characters, fits with vergeben, goes with the box theory in only that it would stick geno on the back or something and make him the "special" last hype newcomer.

yes again geno bias but ending with "70 characters" and verge having three left has a lot of weight to it in my opinion.

Brawl and Smash4 ended on odd numbers. Weird final numbers is nothing new to be blunt.

 

[vaanrose]

Do the people creating these boxes have advance knowledge of what characters we're getting?

I feel like their primary purpose is to sell the product and to look as realistic as possible, not necessarily to be accurate.

Nobody actually knows who is told what. But I will say people grossly underestimate how many people get told the roster.

The vast majority of leaks come from people who haven't spent years working toward their career. Random playtesters. Dumb interns.

The marketing team is comprised of people who both value their job and have worked hard to attain it. Plus they've all signed NDAs. They're trusted with the information they need to be able to do their job.

 

[papagenos]

Brawl and Smash4 ended on odd numbers. Weird final numbers is nothing new to be blunt.

BUT numbering the characters IS something new.

And this game puts a lot of emphasis on it.

 

[Shroob]

Yeah dude you are the one misunderstanding. I don’t need this simplified for me. I know exactly what you are saying and it really just boils down to “I think this” and nothing more.

I don’t have a reason to assume you are right. Yeah every character is gonna be revealed before the game is released. That doesn’t mean they decided to stop making characters so it looked nice on a friggin box no one gives a **** about once the game is in the console.

It literally exists to look nice and then be thrown away. There is no eason to think “yep if they can’t fit anymore characters on this piece of trash then there must not be any more characters!”

Even as a marketing standpoint its just terrible.

I’m going to bed now.

EDIT: and no that isn’t my argument it was one of my arguments that lasted for a single post and then I dropped it. But yes please do simplify things for me because clearly I’m not following your posts very well. Sheesh.

I'm not arguing any of that, oi vey.


Yeah, I think bed is the best thing for you, you're obviously confused, I was just trying to explain what the significance of the 36-per-side on the box theory meant.

 

[Deleted member]

I will say that as someone who believes that the box theory has a lot of legitimacy to it, it’s nice to get some official evidence that might suggest that it is wrong. Most of the efforts to refute it so far have basically boiled down to “the Ken spot was a bizarre coincidence and not intentional,” which seems like grasping at straws to me, but 5 unrevealed stages would certainly suggest that they would want to tie a couple of their announcements with currently unannounced characters, right? I’m just hoping that the number was not some mind of typo or miscommunication, which is also sadly within the realm of possibility.

I don't think it would be a typo or miscommunication, given how CoroCoro's track record is with leaks is lmao
But ditto this, it gets a bit stressful not knowing official information and people wildly making theories left and right.

 

[Shroob]

BUT numbering the characters IS something new.

And this game puts a lot of emphasis on it.

Let's be honest, the numbering is ****ed.


Yeah, Incineroar would be considered #69 on the main site, but the entryway already considers there to be 72 characters in the game due to Echos not being counted towards that number on the main site.

And then you have Pokemon trainer, which is and isn't counted by the same website, so Incineroar would be either 69 or 67 depending on which part of the site you trust more.

 

[Nethermoosen]

actually wait i hadnt thought about this but if it is just ken (an echo with no # spot) and incineraor (#69)

that means in a game with a HUGE emphasis on number of characters and numbering the characters while NOT numbering the echos we end with 69???

we have vergeben saying ken/gen 7 pokemon/and a square rep, we have sakurai putting emphasis on the number of characters and this box theory means we have to leave out one of vergebens characters AND ends us at 69 instead of a clean "70"...

Please call out my geno bias here cause its in full swing but honestly: ken (#60echo) incineroar(#69) geno(#70) makes WAY more sense to me for how they could end this game and its STILL a small amount of remaining characters, fits with vergeben, goes with the box theory in only that it would stick geno on the back or something and make him the "special" last hype newcomer.

yes again geno bias but ending with "70 characters" and verge having three left has a lot of weight to it in my opinion.

Even if he doesn’t make it, DLC could save him. Could be as early as January.

 

[CosmicQuark]

I will say that as someone who believes that the box theory has a lot of legitimacy to it, it’s nice to get some official evidence that might suggest that it is wrong. Most of the efforts to refute it so far have basically boiled down to “the Ken spot was a bizarre coincidence and not intentional,” which seems like grasping at straws to me, but 5 unrevealed stages would certainly suggest that they would want to tie a couple of their announcements with currently unannounced characters, right? I’m just hoping that the number was not some mind of typo or miscommunication, which is also sadly within the realm of possibility.

I think the biggest knock against box theory is there being no good explanation for why there's a "pattern" of 9 characters, with 6 slots for each row, causing a discontinuous jump in the middle of each row. It seems sloppy if that's the "final" version with the addition of Ken/Isabelle/Incineroar. If that was the final box art, and if I were to want to get that over digital, I'd not get it out of principle--"Roy doesn't come after Sheik, get the **** outta here." If someone gave a half-decent explanation for that, I'd be more generous to the box theory.

 

[Nethermoosen]

I think the biggest knock against box theory is there being no good explanation for why there's a "pattern" of 9 characters, with 6 slots for each row, causing a discontinuous jump in the middle of each row. It seems sloppy if that's the "final" version with the addition of Ken/Isabelle/Incineroar. If that was the final box art, and if I were to get that over digital, I'd not get it out of principle--"Roy doesn't come after Sheik, get the **** outta here." If someone gave a half-decent explanation for that, I'd be more generous to the box theory.

It’s because the original 8 would appear on one side of the box. It’s 9 because Samus has an echo who appears right after her, though the group ends with Pikachu.



Those are probably out of order, but that’s all of them in the first 9

 

[Shroob]

I think the biggest knock against box theory is there being no good explanation for why there's a "pattern" of 9 characters, with 6 slots for each row, causing a discontinuous jump in the middle of each row. It seems sloppy if that's the "final" version with the addition of Ken/Isabelle/Incineroar. If that was the final box art, and if I were to get that over digital, I'd not get it out of principle--"Roy doesn't come after Sheik, get the **** outta here." If someone gave a half-decent explanation for that, I'd be more generous to the box theory.

I mean, I legit tried, but you kinda blew it off.

Each character chunk is done in groups of nine, so we can assume on the side we can't see it goes from Mario to - Pikachu, and then starts up on the other side with Luigi.


There are 36 spots that can be filled on both sides, and on the side we can see, we can see 34 characters, meaning the 35 we're missing are on the other side.


So unless there's only going to be 35 characters on both sides with one empty box a piece on both sides, Ken's over there chilling in the spot that it gets ****y unless there's an Echo.

 

[SebasSancy]

#teamMagazine

The box theory really makes me sad

 

[Shroob]

I think the biggest knock against box theory is there being no good explanation for why there's a "pattern" of 9 characters, with 6 slots for each row, causing a discontinuous jump in the middle of each row. It seems sloppy if that's the "final" version with the addition of Ken/Isabelle/Incineroar. If that was the final box art, and if I were to want to get that over digital, I'd not get it out of principle--"Roy doesn't come after Sheik, get the **** outta here." If someone gave a half-decent explanation for that, I'd be more generous to the box theory.

Stealing this from Source Gaming's newest podcast, but you can see how the "Groups of 9" work.

The right side matches up with the left with this theory in mind, and the only spot it gets ****y is with Palutena-Cloud, which conveniently is where Ken gets slotted in if you believe in Vergeben.

 

[Nethermoosen]

View attachment 164619


Stealing this from Source Gaming's newest podcast, but you can see how the "Groups of 9" work.

The right side matches up with the left with this theory in mind, and the only spot it gets ****y is with Palutena-Cloud, which conveniently is where Ken gets slotted in if you believe in Vergeben.

He’s not asking how they are lined up. He’s asking why they are lined up that way.

 

[papagenos]

also going with just who vergeben has left (assuming the vague ones are incineroar and geno)

unique: inkling/ridley/simon/k rool/isabelle/incineroar/geno
echo: daisy/richter/chrom/dark samus/ken

is 12 new characters this game, mirroring the original games 12.

it ends with a potential "ballot" character (geno) and leaves us at a clean "70" (by not #ing echos, which was a CHOICE they made labeling the characters #'s), fits with vergeben, and only slightly going against the box theory (geno on the back or something as a final hype newcomer), and the emphasis on character #'s this time doesnt end awkwardly at 69.

I dont 100% buy into the box theory, and im aware this is basically just it but also with geno (my most wanted character) BUT the reasoning for adding him isnt just my crazy bias its going with vergeben and the fact it lands us at "70" instead of "69". yes im bias. no i dont 100% buy into the box theory. but i still thought this was worth pointing out.

 

[Serebii]

LOL then

Serebii does Coro Coro make those kind of mistakes

Rarely but they have before. For example they listed Chatot as pure Flying-type back in 2006. The horror of it all

 

[Shroob]

He’s not asking how they are lined up. He’s asking why they are lined up that way.

We don't know, we're not the ones who designed the box, we can only theorize with what we're given.


I can say with certainty that the side of the box that we can't see looks like this 100% due to how the right side looks.


Why they chose sets of 9? Who knows.

 

[Dandelionel]

Verg just did a topic which actually helps the box theory a little bit in my opinion

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

It confirms only Incineroar and Ken, not the SE rep

 

[Shroob]

Verg just did a topic which actually helps the box theory a little bit in my opinion

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

It confirms only Incineroar and Ken, not the SE rep

Holy ****

 

[Deleted member]

Actually now that I think about it, even if Ken would be an echo fighter of Ryu, it makes sense for him to come with a stage - most likely being Battle Harbor. Remember that Street Fighter has 36 music tracks. While yes, Dracula's Castle has 34 music tracks, isn't it a bit weird how we've gone from 6 tracks from Wii U to all of a sudden having 30 more in Ultimate? Besides, it's not like third parties haven't gotten more than one stage; Sonic has two stages being Green Hill and Windy Hill Zone, and Pac-Man had two stages before, though not in Ultimate.

And, if I may fanboy a bit, Battle Harbor would be the SICKEST ****. Just IMAGINE seeing it in remade in HD.

 

[Nethermoosen]

We don't know, we're not the ones who designed the box, we can only theorize with what we're given.


I can say with certainty that the side of the box that we can't see looks like this 100% due to how the right side looks.


Why they chose sets of 9? Who knows.

Probably the original 8 being in the same group. They had to make it 9 because of Dark Samus being right after Samus.

 

[Zinith]

I'm not on board with the box theory OR the CoroCoro thing

Spoiler

God, every second I have my mains displayed as NOT Yoshi is pain...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Verg just did a topic which actually helps the box theory a little bit in my opinion

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

It confirms only Incineroar and Ken, not the SE rep

Well there is it.

Verge has lost all doubt he had on Ken and Incineroar.

Keneroar is happening people.

 

[Megadoomer]

This thread is being torn apart.
Because of a box and a magazine.

God I love Smash speculation...

It's an improvement compared to over-analyzing the furniture.

 

[papagenos]

Let's be honest, the numbering is ****ed.


Yeah, Incineroar would be considered #69 on the main site, but the entryway already considers there to be 72 characters in the game due to Echos not being counted towards that number on the main site.

And then you have Pokemon trainer, which is and isn't counted by the same website, so Incineroar would be either 69 or 67 depending on which part of the site you trust more.

true but its more than just the main site they've been emphasizing those character numbers. i still find it very odd to end at 69 AND throw out one of vergebens characters when they would end it at a clean 70.

again im not even really buying into the box theory, i think we could have several more characters left but having all but geno on the sides and saving him (a popular ballot choice) for the final reveal, fitting with vergeben, hitting 70 characters etc... it just honestly makes more sense even if you buy into the box theory.

and im not worried about geno i think he'd be super likely dlc if the box theory was true i just legit think adding him to it (especially cause of vergeben) makes way more sense.

 

[SebasSancy]

Verg just did a topic which actually helps the box theory a little bit in my opinion

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

It confirms only Incineroar and Ken, not the SE rep

I really found that is weird that they only have 2 characters left 2 months before release :/

 

[EricTheGamerman]

My biggest knock to the box theory remains Shadow. He’s one of the most sensible Echo fighters basically ever, a popular pick, and one that has had a ton of speculation. We still haven’t seen his assist trophy show back up, not seeing Isabelle and Dark Samus did indeed mean something. And Sakurai confirmed he knew our suspicions to Chrom and Dark Samus...

So, why would we only get Ken and not Shadow at this point? I mean he could just be back as an assist trophy, but we do have Knuckles now... soooo...

Yeah, I think shadow is one of the things to keep in mind with possibly disproving the box theory.

 

[Shroob]

My biggest knock to the box theory remains Shadow. He’s one of the most sensible Echo fighters basically ever, a popular pick, and one that has had a ton of speculation. We still haven’t seen his assist trophy show back up, not seeing Isabelle and Dark Samus did indeed mean something. And Sakurai confirmed he knew our suspicions to Chrom and Dark Samus...

So, why would we only get Ken and not Shadow at this point? I mean he could just be back as an assist trophy, but we do have Knuckles now... soooo...

Yeah, I think shadow is one of the things to keep in mind with possibly disproving the box theory.

Wolf was a guarantee for DLC in Smash4? Right guys? Right?.....right?

 

[StormC]

Verg just did a topic which actually helps the box theory a little bit in my opinion

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77008096

It confirms only Incineroar and Ken, not the SE rep

Verge shifts his narrative frequently depending on what his sources say. I'm taking this with a grain of salt since he said he's waiting to hear back from his sources, but I'll admit it gives me a bit of pause.

Seems sort of odd timing to be like "oh btw Square character probably isn't in the base game."