Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[drag0nscythe]

So I just looked at drag0nscythe CSS mock up, and box theory or not, let's say the CSS is perfectly shaped with echoes stacked, and is uneven with echoes unstacked, would that change how you order them?

Personally I hate the idea of stacking the echoes, but if Drag0n is close at all with their mock up, I hate how they would look seperate :/ I'm torn.

(Of course until dlc shows up and ****s it all up anyway)

I think I am the only one who likes them stacked. Still. IT is not to ugly unstacked, and that is my guess. I could be way off.

But it does have this nice sing to it. N64 on top. Melee next Row. Brawl next row. Smash 4 row 4 and DLC and ultimate on Row 5. just so pleasing given the ordering of the characters.

 

[Darkraid]

My favorite thing about the dumb box theory is putting thought processes and words into Verge's mouth to fit the agenda, when prior these same people were all on Verge's word as biblical and not doubtful.

''We at least have Incineroar, Ken, and a Square Rep"

Became ''He never seemed all that confident in his Square rep anyways." Like I love Push to death, but seeing him championing this portion made me head desk.

Yeah, you sure about that? You sure that he's not confident just because he can't name who it is? I mean if he wasn't confident? He very much could just not even say Square rep at all.

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

The whole theory is a ****ing mess of jumping to conclusions and thinking it's rock solid evidence.

Long story didn't read?

There's at least 3 newcomers left. Not 2. And I seriously have doubts we only have one echo left and it's just Ken from Street Fighter.

I think you need some math lessons lol

 

[Meritocracy]

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed a DLC character before the game releases. They did it with Mewtwo, so they can do it again. I also wouldn't be surprised if this character is a Pokémon once again.

While I agree with Totsbs's statement, if it does happen, I'll throw my guess in with Tails, suspended from the base roster because of schedule but made cheap/free DLC because they wanted to make sure he made it in.

 

[Mega Bidoof]

It would be weird but it does make sense, logically speaking. Pokemon is Nintendo's biggest franchise (maybe mario beat it but it close) so having a pokemon as the last reveal would be logically the best choice... However there are over 800 pokemon so they have to choose the right one and Incineroar isn't that pokemon (Decidueye would probably be better), Type:null/ Silvally might be the best choice as everyone who has played sun and moon knows the pokemon and (probably) everyone thinks its cool. Its hard because everyone likes different pokemon.

Nah, you’re right on Pokémon being bigger than Mario. In fact, Pokémon is the single highest grossing media franchise in general, beating out Star Wars by $6 Billion.

 

[vaanrose]

See here's my problem though, if they just had to put the characters on it why not just Mario until that side is full? That's what I would have done if I just needed to make a mock up. Why create something that intentionally leaves blank spots?

Asking legitimately, I don't want this to go into back and forth arguements. I just haven't seen anyone give a reason why the mock up would be so elaborate if they were only showing one side.

The best alternative explanation for Ryu's chunk only having 8 characters instead of 9 is that Ryu's row would be the final row on the opposite side, and they may have decided to leave a blank space on that side to keep some semblance of symmetry, so that one side isn't full while the other has three blank spots. It's not a bad theory, all things considered.

But I'm not fond of it because it's meant to be an explanation for why the layout isn't final, and yet it suggests the person who made this design was conscientious of making the side of the box we can't even see look nice, which it wouldn't need to if it was never even meant to be the final design and would only be seen from the one angle.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I think you need some math lessons lol

I think you need manners.

As this is a rude and uncalled for statement lol.

Don't be a **** just because we have differing opinions on a theory.

 

[DJ3DS]

if the boxart thing is true i can't see anyone but ken being the echo on the back.

I can just about barely buy it even if imo if it's real nintendo ****ed up hard hyping their biggest switch game not called botw and like the one game they put all their chips into for 2018 and it's their fault for getting the backlash, but I still can't see inceneroar being the lock like it is Ken from what we know of verge's statements. I seriously think it's a coin flip between Inceneroar and geno (The only really feasible Square Enix character if there are no new stages or Final Fantasy Songs). I can buy no lycanroc or decidueye even if Lycanroc should be the alolan mon tbh.

But people comparing this to Smash 4 and Brawl's timeline fail to understand that this ain't Smash 4 or Brawl. It's their biggest and arguably only "hardcore" switch title in years and they chose not to do secret characters this time around. While it makes sense for someone like ridley to drop at E3, the smash direct already had a big character, simon belmont, if K rool really was the last smash fanbase freak out character, it would have been a lot wiser to swap K Rool and Inceneroar's spots, most fans would have been happy with a big classic 3rd party and a semi popular newer character. It's not unreasoable to call this a dissapointment when nintendo marketing has actively messed up and over raised expectations (assuming it ends on roar and no geno/skull kid/whatever). They only have themselves to blame and you shouldn't defend them for the hole they dug themselves into

OK, hold on.

Nintendo have repeatedly said not to expect too many newcomers. Moreover, they've not made any mention of Geno or Skull Kid with regards to smash either. Only people hoping for a morsel of attention have.

Nintendo haven't raised your expectations too high. You've done that yourself.

 

[osby]

To be honest, we got a lot of 'hardcore' fighters so it's not THAT weird having a Pokemon from the most recent gen, because like it or not Pokemon almot always create hype.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

My favorite thing about the dumb box theory is putting thought processes and words into Verge's mouth to fit the agenda, when prior these same people were all on Verge's word as biblical and not doubtful.

''We at least have Incineroar, Ken, and a Square Rep"

Became ''He never seemed all that confident in his Square rep anyways." Like I love Push to death, but seeing him championing this portion made me head desk.

Yeah, you sure about that? You sure that he's not confident just because he can't name who it is? I mean if he wasn't confident? He very much could just not even say Square rep at all.

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

The whole theory is a ****ing mess of jumping to conclusions and thinking it's rock solid evidence.

Long story didn't read?

There's at least 3 newcomers left. Not 2. And I seriously have doubts we only have one echo left and it's just Ken from Street Fighter.

There's no way you can tell me that Sakurai wouldn't put in the original echo fighter in Ultimate.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

I personally believe the fanbase is also at fault for having expectations all over the place, myself included.

Imagine the backlash already if the last reveal would be K.Rool. People would be fuming right now that Incineroar/Ken/Isabelle are in and we still haven’t seen K.Rool.

That leaks to a lot more negativity up until the very last moment, when promotional material for the LE packages would have been up for awhile. I think everybody might look at it differently, but it’s definitely not just the fault of the company making the game. Fans go overboard with expectations all the time.

But people already speculated that smash ultimate reveals would end on a bang, most sensible krool fans would know to wait until the show is truly over before calling Krool dead. Now everyone just gets to see the last direct end on what many fans would consider a whimper (Assuming it IS actually roar).

People in the smash community are seriously underselling the Belmonts, I haven't played a castlevania game ever, and even I know that having them in the game is a pretty big deal. I wish they got more respect and I honestly think they're 10x cooler than krool and ridley.

 

[Cosmic77]

Just out of curiosity, why is Incineroar the character people are most confident in? Verge said that neither of his two main sources heard about Incineroar, and that the SE rep was basically guaranteed.

I mean, I don't disagree that a Pokemon rep is more likely, but I would've assumed that practically everyone on Smashboards would've clinged to Geno/SE rep being that last newcomer.

 

[Deleted member]

For the record, even if Incineroar and Ken were the last characters, it'd be a REALLY uneven character count. I refer to the fighter page on the website and mainly go by how they classify each character, y'know, Dark Samus being 04ε and so on. Why would Sakurai end it on #69? Wouldn't he wanna end things at 70 classified characters?

It all just seems to weird to me, if you ask me.

 

[Darkraid]

If the original 8 were to be on the back, that'd mean like 8 slots would be unaccounted for.

No way that many characters are left.

I doubt this will be the case but it would be

Unique: Geno, Skull Kid, Isaac

Echo: Dixie, Shadow, Impa, Black Shadow, Black Knighy

 

[Tree Gelbman]

There's no way you can tell me that Sakurai wouldn't put in the original echo fighter in Ultimate.

I'm not saying Ken is a bad echo. I'm just saying I find it unlikely the final Echo revealed would be one not many people even asked for.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the question we should be asking is if they actually have the final design ready and that's just an editted version without the last fighters. Part of me is telling me to just buy this theory to avoid disappointment and hope Verge's source on Incineroar is wrong while the other thinks we'll get our Robin next month.

 

[Arcadenik]

There's a reason Sakurai have characters with numbers now.

Maybe this time it's different. Maybe number of slots do matter this time.

Side A - the side of the box we don't see

Spoiler

1. 01 - - Group 1
2. 02 -
   
3. 03 -
   
4. 04 -
   
5. 04' -
   
6. 05 -
   
7. 06 -
   
8. 07 -
   
9. 08 -
10. 17 - - Group 2
11. 18 -
    
12. 19 -
    
13. 20 -
    
14. 21 -
    
15. 21' -
    
16. 22 -
    
17. 23 -
    
18. 24 -
    
19. 32 - - Group 3
20. 33/34/35 -
    
21. 36 -
    
22. 37 -
    
23. 38 -
    
24. 39 -
    
25. 40 -
    
26. 41 -
    
27. 42 -
    
28. 54 - - Group 4
29. 55 -
    
30. 56 - :ultrobin
    
31. 57 -
32. 58 -
    
33. 59 -
    
34. 60 -
    
35. 60' - Ken
36. 61 -

Side B - the side of the box we can see

Spoiler

1. 09 - - Group 1
2. 10 -
   
3. 11 -
   
4. 12 -
   
5. 13 -
   
6. 13' -
   
7. 14 -
   
8. 15 -
   
9. 16 -
10. 25 - - Group 2
11. 25' -
    
12. 26 -
    
13. 27 -
    
14. 28 -
    
15. 28' -
    
16. 29 -
    
17. 30 -
    
18. 31 -
    
19. 43 - - Group 3
20. 44 -
    
21. 45 -
    
22. 46 -
    
23. 47 -
    
24. 48 -
    
25. 49 -
    
26. 50 -
    
27. 51/52/53 -
    
28. 62 - - Group 4
29. 63 -
    
30. 64 -
    
31. 65 -
    
32. 66 -
    
33. 66' -
    
34. 67 -
    
35. 68 - Isabelle
36. 69 - Incineroar

We are likely getting two more newcomers for a grand total of 72 character slots.

The Smash Ultimate website is missing two slots after Isabelle. I believe that's where Ken and Incineroar will go.

 

[drag0nscythe]

To give some thought against the box theory, characters could be put on the back. But we also need spaces for legal language, screenshots, etc.
Maybe a group of 4 could be on the back.

But I think we are grasping at straws there. 72 seems right. feels right. and if we are wrong, what is lost?

Nothing. Hype was in check. and being wrong means more characters. So win. Being right means we were right. Nothing more.

 

[osby]

For the record, even if Incineroar and Ken were the last characters, it'd be a REALLY uneven character count. I refer to the fighter page on the website and mainly go by how they classify each character, y'know, Dark Samus being 04ε and so on. Why would Sakurai end it on #69? Wouldn't he wanna end things at 70 classified characters?

It all just seems to weird to me, if you ask me.

Because Sakurai can't cram another character just to make an even list?

 

[drag0nscythe]

Because Sakurai can't cram another character just to make an even list?

And brawl technically ended with 39 CSS slots.
Number does not matter in some extent. It is hard to describe. CSS look and feel is important.

 

[NintenRob]

As has Necrozma and the Ultra Beasts, too. I feel like they have decent chances as well. Necrozma ended up having an entire Post-story devoted to him in the most recent game as well as the honor of essentially being the first Pokemon 'Boss' fight in the series outside of Gym Leaders & the Elite 4. And while not all the ultra beasts garnered the same attention, Pheramosa, Buzzwole, and Nihilego all had prominent roles within the game and anime (except for Pheramosa; she hasn't been seen in the anime yet).

Legends like Tapu Koko have been in every Pokemon game, but the Ultra Beasts represented a new angle of the series altogether; that of inter-dimensional Pokemon (inter-dimensional super pokemon at that). I'm not sure how likely they are in reality, but I don't think their chances should be discounted. We actually haven't seen a single Ultra Beast in as a pokeball yet either (though it may be as a 'Beast Ball' more rare than a Masterball) and I have a hard time believing that we wouldn't see at least one Ultra Beast in the game in some way, shape, or form. And, just to kind of point out how cool it is, Necrozma is the first Pokemon we've seen that actually Possesses/Absorbs other Legendary Pokemon to become ridiculously powerful. He's practically the Cell/Majin Buu of Pokemon and that's really epic. Not to mention his theme for the Ultra Necrozma was pretty cool, too.

Spoiler

Necrozma would certainly be interesting, but from my perspective, it suffers a similar problem to Lycanroc. It only rose to fame in the Ultra release, even more so for Necrozma. I believe if we get a Pokemon, it will be one with significance from the beginning.

I'm thinking Tapu Koko because it's been significant from the moment it was revealed. You meet in game before your starter and you end your story with a battle after the credits.

The most astonishing thing to me though, is how little people talk about the Pokemon. It's really high up there with just how prominent it is.

 

[Darkraid]

I think you need manners.

As this is a rude and uncalled for statement lol.

Don't be a **** just because we have differing opinions on a theory.

Says the person who swore at me.

 

[Meritocracy]

Did I miss the memo saying we're ignoring that Nintendo could have a 100% different box design showing all the charecters and swap it on us without any prior notice?
Why don't you people tell me these things? I wouldn't have spent the past 15 minutes imagining a room full of people in tinfoil hats posting together.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

just an editted version without the last fighters

It actually is

As you can see, it's only a mockup made for marketing purposes, meaning that it's subject to change in the future as new characters are being announced, but in the mean time the official boxart isn't done yet.

 

[Deleted member]

Because Sakurai can't cram another character just to make an even list?

But surely he can, though. This game, he's made apparent to point out how even the numbers are for everything.
More than 800 tracks, roughly 900 music tracks, 100 stages, if you exclude Battlefield, Big Battlefield and FD, 300+ stages - some of these are estimates, of course, but they're even numbers. It'd feel off if all the classified character count wasn't at 70.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Says the person who swore at me.

Oh no no no.

We're not doing the ''Roger is wrong always and he's a mean person!" thing anymore.

I swear all the time. I swear because they're just words. They have no power until you give them power.

And to be fair? Yes. I gave them power here, but after you were rude to me.

Do two wrongs make a right? Nope.

But I'm also not just gonna sit back and let someone be rude to me and then go ''No! You!"

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Just out of curiosity, why is Incineroar the character people are most confident in? Verge said that neither of his two main sources heard about Incineroar, and that the SE rep was basically guaranteed.

I mean, I don't disagree that a Pokemon rep is more likely, but I would've assumed that practically everyone on Smashboards would've clinged to Geno/SE rep being that last newcomer.

If we cling to the theory and also assume that Vergeben is right, I could see a scenario where Incineroar is the last newcomer on the base roster, but somehow Vergeben's sources have gotten a sniff of Geno, or whoever the SE rep is, being set to be announced as the first DLC character, and maybe already being in development.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'm not saying Ken is a bad echo. I'm just saying I find it unlikely the final Echo revealed would be one not many people even asked for.

I never said anything about you saying Ken was a bad echo?

And besides that, need I remind you that the last reveal for Smash 4 was Shulk, who, before he was revealed, was very much in the same boat as you claim Ken to be in; same for Olimar in Brawl. I've said it before, but I'll say it again:

Character reveal cycles in Smash have ALWAYS, ALWAYS ended on an "anti-hype" note.

I really hope you don't expect Ultimate to be any different.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

You say 72 is the number right uh you guys already made a fatal mistake

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

We are at 72

And plus shadow the hedgehog is practically shoe in level at this point and Vergeben saids there’s going t9 be a SE rep and this is from the same source as simon Belmont

The box art is not final the could shrink the character boxes they could rearrange differently there can be characters on the back of the box no way to figure out who’s on the other side of the box no way to predict from

Besides

October will probably have the Lucina/Robin trailer for characters heck maybe incineroar and ken since they both involve fighting and fire

Then November will probably be 50 facts extravaganza ultimate edition

Does that sound like two more newcomers I don’t think so

 

[dezeray112]

Personally, Decidueye and Inceniroar were both my favourite starters. Even though I would've preferred Decidueye, I'm not exactly too fussed in regards to Inceniroar's inclusion.

If there were other Pokemon from Gen 7 that I would like to see being playable, my pick would be between an Alolan Guardian (Tapu Koko) or an Ultra Beast (Buzzwole.)

 

[IGuessItsOver]

I swear all the time. I swear because they're just words. They have no power until you give them power.

That's..... pretty edgy....
Yup, that's a yikes from me

Did I miss the memo saying we're ignoring that Nintendo could have a 100% different box design showing all the charecters and swap it on us without any prior notice?

This. Nintendo wouldn't show us how many characters are left to be announced through a mockup of a bardboard box lol

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

OK, hold on.

Nintendo have repeatedly said not to expect too many newcomers. Moreover, they've not made any mention of Geno or Skull Kid with regards to smash either. Only people hoping for a morsel of attention have.

Nintendo haven't raised your expectations too high. You've done that yourself.

I said Geno/Skull Kid/Whatever for a reason, any character that doesn't feel there to fill a checklist of "oh we always add a pokemon from the new game so might as well do it again" but rather what makes a lot of people actually pumped to play or gets those big headlines like krool got. I don't even want skull kid, my characters after geno would be like, tails and karate joe.

My point is simply that if Inceneroar is the final character, we would not be in the ****storm we are if Nintendo swapped the reveal times of Krool and Inceneroar, same roster, different presentation. How you say it is just as important as what you actually have to say.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I get wanting to end on a banger of a reveal. However, I will say that regardless of the last couple (please no Steve or Dova, sorry peeps) I am already more than satisfied with Ultimate. All I wanted was for it to not be a port.

I didn't expect everyone to be back, I didn't expect over 100 stages and Battlefield forms, no one expected stage morphing, and I had no expectations for any kind of new adventure/story mode but we seemingly have one. I honestly never thought Ganon would get his sword, and now my boy has it! Ridley, K. Rool, Dark Samus, and a Belmont have long been on my wish lists and they're here! Plus all of the little competitive add-ons/fixes and character tweaks.

Seriously, whoever they finish out the reveals for, I am out-of-my-mind hyped already and feel we are endlessly and undeservingly blessed by Sakurai.

(But seriously it better not be Incineroar. Buzzwole, Necrozma, or Koko plz)

 

[Deleted member]

It actually is

As you can see, it's only a mockup made for marketing purposes, meaning that it's subject to change in the future as new characters are being announced, but in the mean time the official boxart isn't done yet.

That's not what I meant, basically, there are two possibilities:
A) It's a mockup made from scratch and the final version will be based on it
B) It's the final version but the unrevealed fighters were edited out.

Each of these carry different implications, the first would mean this theory is unreliable, the second would mean it's likely true.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Shadow is definitely not a shoo-in.

 

[Darkraid]

Oh no no no.

We're not doing the ''Roger is wrong always and he's a mean person!" thing anymore.

I swear all the time. I swear because they're just words. They have no power until you give them power.

And to be fair? Yes. I gave them power here, but after you were rude to me.

Do two wrongs make a right? Nope.

But I'm also not just gonna sit back and let someone be rude to me and then go ''No! You!"

Oh rly lol

Go back to your ivory tower

I'll enjoy your salty tears when Sakurai tells us "that's all folks"

Btw if u think that is rude, please don't out into the real world. You'd run back home to momma in a sec

PEACE

 

[Squirtle/Mario guy]

Vergeben got his leaks right, Isabelle, Simon Belmont, Mimikyu not being playable. If he is right Ken, a gen 7 Pokemon, Ridley revealed at E3, Decidueye and Lycanroc not playable, Sqaure Enix character, Minecraft rep is coming to smash. I want to ask him if Bandana Dee is in

 

[Arcadenik]

And brawl technically ended with 39 CSS slots.

No.

Character = / = Character Slot

Brawl had 39 characters but they were in 35 character slots.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

A) It's a mockup made from scratch and the final version will be based on it

I'm sticking to this one TBH, the boxart looks too ugly and badly edited to be the real deal

 

[drag0nscythe]

You say 72 is the number right uh you guys already made a fatal mistake

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate

We are at 72

And plus shadow the hedgehog is practically shoe in level at this point and Vergeben saids there’s going t9 be a SE rep and this is from the same source as simon Belmont

The box art is not final the could shrink the character boxes they could rearrange differently there can be characters on the back of the box no way to figure out who’s on the other side of the box no way to predict from

Besides

October will probably have the Lucina/Robin trailer for characters heck maybe incineroar and ken since they both involve fighting and fire

Then November will probably be 50 facts extravaganza ultimate edition

Does that sound like two more newcomers I don’t think so

Vegibern is not an offical source. He can be wrong on some of it. Assuming he is right, SE rep can be dlc.
Box art order is to deliberate.
October direct is guessing. Does not have to happen.
November 50 fact can happen. I remember only getting 2 characters and DLC in that.
Isaac was not in smash 4 as AT. does not mean anything for shadow.

 

[Deleted member]

Just out of curiosity, why is Incineroar the character people are most confident in? Verge said that neither of his two main sources heard about Incineroar, and that the SE rep was basically guaranteed.

I mean, I don't disagree that a Pokemon rep is more likely, but I would've assumed that practically everyone on Smashboards would've clinged to Geno/SE rep being that last newcomer.

My theory on that goes on this thinking:
1) He usually picks a starter; with only Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Lucario falling outside that (and when Trainer was gone, Charizard was kept solo)
2) The Pokemon Choice tends to be the one promoted more (Lucario had is own movie at the time; this time concept art had Ash with Incineroar)
3) Decidueye is already in Pokken Tournament*

*I know this is blasphemy to say, but I don't think Sakurai would use a character already being used in another Switch fighting game. How much hype could honestly be generated with the reveal of "Here's a new pokemon! And he's already in another fighting game that isn't that old yet, Decidueye Soars in!

I mean, yeah, he's not impossible, but #2 does seem to weigh prominently. Mewtwo is still one of people's favorite Pokemon; Pikachu is the mascot of the series, Charizard is the most well-recognized Pokemon out of the 800+ there are, Greninja was so pushed int he anime, he got his own form for being so bonded to Ash (sorry Pikachu, you're not close enough to Ash, I guess), Lucario had his own Movie at the time and was pushed a bit as well. Jigglypuff is kind of the outlier. At the time of 64, she was constantly following in the anime and causing havoc when using 'Sing', so I honestly think she was included as a bit of a 'Joke' character, then kept because she was part of the original cast.

DISCLAIMER: I know there's no set theory or anything written in stone for how Sakurai chooses a Pokemon rep (or any rep for that matter), but so far, for the Pokemon reps and 4 Games each introducing a new Pokemon character, he has yet to not pick a Pokemon who's pushed strongly by the Pokemon company. And at the time of his choosing, he would have had access to concept art which would show not only who the anime would end up pushing (since it was the only one of the concept arts that even showed anime character), but what type of fighter Sakurai could make him:

In the end, I would love for it to be an Ultra beast, Necrozma, or even Tapu Koko (since the games revolved around them and the anime has had arcs around them), but as far as Incineroar himself goes, I really believe he has the best chance out of the Gen 7 starters.