Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Guybrush20X6]

So let me get this straight... yesterday we were be having Dante was in, now we're be living only Ken and a Pokemon?

Wow, life comes at you fast.

 

[HyruleHero]

It feels weird that they would reveal a new Pokemon rep at the tail end of the promotion period where that has never happened before in Smash.

It would be weird but it does make sense, logically speaking. Pokemon is Nintendo's biggest franchise (maybe mario beat it but it close) so having a pokemon as the last reveal would be logically the best choice... However there are over 800 pokemon so they have to choose the right one and Incineroar isn't that pokemon (Decidueye would probably be better), Type:null/ Silvally might be the best choice as everyone who has played sun and moon knows the pokemon and (probably) everyone thinks its cool. Its hard because everyone likes different pokemon.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Be honest with me, we all know Incineroar is expected to be the next character but, do YOU want him in over any other choices like Skull Kid or Geno?

He's the closest thing i'm going to get of having King in Smash so...

I welcome him

 

[NintenRob]

No, he said Incineroar only came from one of his main sources. His other two could not confirm if that was true. We only found out about Incineroar because of loz. Furthermore, Verg deconfirmed Decidueye, Lycanroc, and Mimikyu without hesitation, so he’s sure of a Gen VII Rep.

He said he’s holding off on naming the Square Enix Rep, as none of his sources have confirmed it.

Again, no. Before mentioning anything Pokemon related. He mentioned knowing something else but not wanting to share it because he wasn't sure about the source.


Also regarding Incineroar, didn't the source that said he was in also say K Rool was NOT, moments before the guy was confirmed?

 

[drag0nscythe]

Just think I can play street fighter outside of Street Fighter. With a better jump mechanic. I am kind of excited for Ken in a way.

And DLC is going to happen. I know it will. Nintendo would be stupid to not have it. How many characters? No idea. I am hoping for 12, mainly for smash down. But I doubt that. More than likely, i will be 6-7 like last time. With 6 being most likely.

So who do I want?

Bandana Dee
Rex/Pyra
Spring Man
GOEMON!!!!!!!
Geno -or- Slime Riding a Chocobo
Surprise me.

 

[Frostwraith]

Anyway, to get away from the box for the moment, i’m SUPER hyped for what we could get for DLC if this really is all we have to look forward to.

If Mario tennis Aces is getting support until June, imagine what Smash could get.

I think Speing Man and Rex will be there, and probably some 3rd parties. But it could be really, really awesome.

I definitely agree with the potential of DLC.

There's no way Nintendo is putting so much support into multiplayer games and competitive play and then doesn't support one of their biggest games in that regard. I definitely expect DLC to some degree.

Give Smash roughly a year or two of support and get a bigger team to work on Ultimate DLC than Smash 3DS/Wii U, and this Ultimate game will be even more ultimate.

Also, something I want to point out is the possibility of Mute City from Melee returning due to how stages were renamed to avoid stages with the same name. Mute City from the 3DS game got renamed to Mute City SNES despite there's no other Mute City stage in the game, unlike how the Game Boy Kirby stage was renamed to Dream Land GB to tell it apart from the Dream Land stage from Smash 64.

Likewise, Mario Circuit from Brawl got renamed to Figure-8 Circuit (after the Mario Kart DS course that the stage primarily draws aesthetically from and has a similar course layout as), Yoshi's Island from Smash 64 is now Super Happy Tree (as it's the main landmark of the stage), Kongo Jungle from Melee is now Kongo Falls, and so on.

 

[Zinith]

Geno/Boshi DLC pack...

If that's what it takes...

 

[lightdrago]

Again, no. Before mentioning anything Pokemon related. He mentioned knowing something else but not wanting to share it because he wasn't sure about the source.


Also regarding Incineroar, didn't the source that said he was in also say K Rool was NOT, moments before the guy was confirmed?

That “something else” was Incineroar. He didn’t want to mention it (only for it to be leaked by loz) cause his other two sources couldn’t name drop the Gen VII Rep.

Misconception. Someone did tell him that DK wasn’t getting another rep, but he did not believe it. He talked about it with loz, stating his disbelief. This is the same PM loz leaked that Verg mentioned Incineroar.

 

[Chrono.]

He is, but he's also not an echo or fighter anyone really particularly ASKED for either. Outside of Richter. Every echo has been ''We get a lot of requests." type of fighter.

He's still extremely iconic and popular in a vacuum so I wouldn't be surprised if they went with him because of that. Even if Smash fans in particular didn't request him all that much.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Ridley and Isaac have their popularity overestimated heavily. Remember "Captain America"?

Also I will say that no smash characters were more requested than Sonic and Mega Man. anyone else is a distant second to those two and ridley being the biggest one is a fat *** myth.

I know I'm biased, but it's pretty difficult to overstate Ridley's popularity, it was a constant from even before Brawl speculation, and the only time it dipped was for Smash 4 DLC as he wasn't eligible for that. Throughout the entirety of Smash speculation history he's had the most consistent support, it's not a coincidence they chose him as the big E3 reveal for Ultimate. Not sure what your point about the Captain America thing is as that was just one dude, the only reason it spread was because people liked the narrative behind it, but it's not actually his nickname in Japan.

Sonic was the most requested Smash character bar none, no doubt about that, but of course it didn't take long for him to get in either, so it's difficult to compare him to the others we're talking about. Mega Man had to wait his turn in that regard, Sonic was the focus of almost all of the 3rd party talk in the Brawl days, it was only pre-Smash 4 that Mega Man topped everyone else (and even then Mewtwo would sometimes top him). He was of course very very popular still, but I'd rank him as being alongside Ridley and K. Rool, not clearly above them.

 

[DMTN]

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed a DLC character before the game releases. They did it with Mewtwo, so they can do it again. I also wouldn't be surprised if this character is a Pokémon once again.

 

[Frostwraith]

Also, in regards to music, the way My Music simply attributes music from a given series across all stages from the same series makes DLC music much easier to be implemented.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Still don't buy the box leak, it's a mock up which is subject to change, the artist probably doesn't even know the full roster anyway cause that's a leak waiting to happen and I don't think they'd just show the final number outright like that, they probably just had to fit all the characters on and 2 spaces were left.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

damn i kinda wish we had the return of secret characters. Duck Hunt was the best smash 4 character and we 99% aint getting another like that.

Mach Rider or Sable Prince would have been a 20x cooler character that no one asked for in smash.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed a DLC character before the game releases. They did it with Mewtwo, so they can do it again. I also wouldn't be surprised if this character is a Pokémon once again.

I kinda think this, too. I'm of the camp that we'll see the full roster before November for several reasons, but they'll tease a DLC character that month similar to what they did to Mewtwo.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I know we have stages in the layout that look missing. Wonder if they are for DLC. Similar to what the 3ds CSS screen hinted at.

Given the stage renames, I bet Nintendo will be releasing some stages as free DLC to keep up support before a season pass kicks in that releases 4 characters.

Or you know. Charge for those extra 6 stages. The wanted list so far is

Isaac - new stage
Geno - Mario character
Bandana Dee - Kirby character
Rex/Pyra - Xenoblade character
Spring man - new stage
Skull Kid - Zelda character

So, It is within reason to think that the last 6 stages are a mix of returning old and potential new ones.

 

[lizard1929]

Be honest with me, we all know Incineroar is expected to be the next character but, do YOU want him in over any other choices like Skull Kid or Geno?

7 poke reps at the moment
+1 for incineroar = 8 (=10!!!! if you count pokemon trainer as 3)
It'll be a fire emblem problem for me without the echoes. Being fair I am biased against Pokémon due to Moon being my last game.
Geno and skull kid are far more interesting to me even tho I have never played there games.

 

[IGuessItsOver]

These are the only Gen VII reps i would unironically get hyped for if they were announced for Smash

Spoiler

 

[pika.thunder25]

Even if the box theory turns out to be true (it may be, it may not-- it's impossible to say definitively of course until the game is released), it's still hasty to say this proves Ken and Incineroar. Just because the rumors (Verge) has implied this, I wouldn't want to put all of my stakes in them. For example, he didn't necessarily predict K. Rool, right?

Based on the theory, I would definitely say that Ken makes the most sense (Zack Fair or some FF swordfighter would be an awesome echo for Cloud though), but that's mainly out of speculation not based on rumors. As for the last newcomer, just because Verge said Pokemon newcomer, doesn't mean it's actually a Pokemon. In fact, I actually don't think we're getting a Pokemon newcomer (as base roster anyway). I would think it would be someone like Geno or Skull Kid (a popular character fans wanted forever), Tails (based on this theory, Shadow isn't an echo, so that leaves more room for Sonic reps), or Dixie Kong or someone from a newer franchise like Elma.

Of course, this is all speculation and fun and games. If all of these rumors do happen, I will happily play as Incineroar. As it is, I am already super hyped about this roster, and I honestly think this could be the best Smash game to date. As it is, this roster-- and more importantly, this entire game-- is exceeding expectations. Maybe I'd love to see my desired characters, mainly Dixie and Tails and Geno, but as it is, this game is a game for the fans, and I'm already in love with the game modes as well (Tournament Mode!!! Smashdown!!!). The point is, no matter what happens, Smash speculation is a once in a blue moon thing, and I'm enjoying every second of it!

The game is a lot more than just the roster anyway and as it is I'm probably just going to main Pikachu anyway no matter what hype inclusion we get

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm sure someone created something way better by now, but I made this so we can get a better idea of what the box could look like.

(Left side)





:ultrobin
(?)


(Right side)






(Isabelle) (?)

So within the next two months, all we'd be getting is one unique newcomer, and an Echo of someone starting with Palutena and ending with Cloud.

I don't believe the box theory, but I'll admit, it'll be interesting to see people react to this if it were true. No Shadow, Impa, or Dixie as Echoes, and Skull Kid, Geno, and a Gen VII rep possibly not being the "locks" people once thought they were.

 

[NintenRob]

Well some clarification is nice, but regardless. I would sooner trust my own instincts over Verg, some stuff lines up with some stuff of his stuff anyway.


I stand by IF we get a new Pokemon, Tapu Koko is most likely. It's played a very prominent role in the promotion of the game, Anime and TCG. And plays crucial roles in the anime and game.

 

[Bladeviper]

He is, but he's also not an echo or fighter anyone really particularly ASKED for either. Outside of Richter. Every echo has been ''We get a lot of requests." type of fighter.

tbh richter got in cause he is the most popular belmont in the whole series in japan at the very least but I believe ive heard he the most popular worldwide as well

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't be surprised if they revealed a DLC character before the game releases. They did it with Mewtwo, so they can do it again. I also wouldn't be surprised if this character is a Pokémon once again.

Yeah... I'd say it's probably in Nintendo's best interests to not do that. They've already stirred up the pot with their Online Service, how do you think people will react to see characters being DLC before release? It's already a pretty iffy thing to do in people's eyes in the FGC. Soul Calibur recently did it, and it garnered a heavily mixed reception, maybe even leaning negative.

They very carefully said Mewtwo was a "downloadable bonus for people who buy both Wii U and 3DS versions of Smash 4" to not cause any controversy, but now that we're not in that same type of environment anymore, it'd feel even more strange, especially given the "Everybody is Here!" statement. It'd feel like that one character isn't "here" yet.

 

[Dandelionel]

I personally believe the box theory, it just makes too much sense. However, the thing that bugs me is that supposedly that special edition comes out in November right? Or that's what I heard. In any case, I expected a Smash Direct in November, not October. If they box theory is right then it would be kinda weird to see the last newcomers being announced 1+ month prior to the release of the game

 

[NintenRob]

Yeah... I'd say it's probably in Nintendo's best interests to not do that. They've already stirred up the pot with their Online Service, how do you think people will react to see characters being DLC before release? It's already a pretty iffy thing to do in people's eyes in the FGC. Soul Calibur recently did it, and it garnered a heavily mixed reception, maybe even leaning negative.

They very carefully said Mewtwo was a "downloadable bonus for people who buy both Wii U and 3DS versions of Smash 4" to not cause any controversy, but now that we're not in that same type of environment anymore, it'd feel even more strange, especially given the "Everybody is Here!" statement. It'd feel like that one character isn't "here" yet.

Mewtwo was announced before the Wii U game. But that was after the 3DS version released and the roster had been finished for quite a while.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

I personally believe the box theory, it just makes too much sense. However, the thing that bugs me is that supposedly that special edition comes out in November right? Or that's what I heard. In any case, I expected a Smash Direct in November, not October. If they box theory is right then it would be kinda weird to see the last newcomers being announced 1+ month prior to the release of the game

I think the 2nd november thing is for the solo controller and the smash edition switch. The november thing is why you get a download code instead of a physical copy.

 

[Bladeviper]

I personally believe the box theory, it just makes too much sense. However, the thing that bugs me is that supposedly that special edition comes out in November right? Or that's what I heard. In any case, I expected a Smash Direct in November, not October. If they box theory is right then it would be kinda weird to see the last newcomers being announced 1+ month prior to the release of the game

the box with the characters on the side is for the special edition with the pro controller which comes out on the 7th since it includes a physical copy of the game, the switch bundle comes with a download code which wont work til the 7th so they can sell it early and it be fine

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I did create a mock-up yesterday. I can try retrieving it but i’m on mobile. Gimme a few minutes and i’ll snag it.

Personally I hope the final Smash Direct is ended with a DLC character #1 reveal. I think that would be great.

However, I think it’s possible that these two are the last two. I also have thought, “Well of course they would finish off with Geno for the hype!” But historically that doesn’t happen. Shulk was the last one before 3DS, arguably one of the most obscure Smash additions ever, and then Bowser Jr./ Duck Hunt finishes up before Wii U released.

EDIT:

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

So let me get this straight... yesterday we were be having Dante was in, now we're be living only Ken and a Pokemon?

Wow, life comes at you fast.

Honestly, the Dante thing was nothing. One person in a million says we're gunna get Isabelle, someone is bound to be right. Rest was mostly following Verg so eh.

Still don't buy the box leak, it's a mock up which is subject to change, the artist probably doesn't even know the full roster anyway cause that's a leak waiting to happen and I don't think they'd just show the final number outright like that, they probably just had to fit all the characters on and 2 spaces were left.

See here's my problem though, if they just had to put the characters on it why not just Mario until that side is full? That's what I would have done if I just needed to make a mock up. Why create something that intentionally leaves blank spots?

Asking legitimately, I don't want this to go into back and forth arguements. I just haven't seen anyone give a reason why the mock up would be so elaborate if they were only showing one side.

I did create a mock-up yesterday. I can try retrieving it but i’m on mobile. Gimme a few minutes and i’ll snag it.

Personally I hope the final Smash Direct is ended with a DLC character #1 reveal. I think that would be great.

However, I think it’s possible that these two are the last two. I also have thought, “Well of course they would finish off with Geno for the hype!” But historically that doesn’t happen. Shulk was the last one before 3DS, arguably one of the most obscure Smash additions ever, and then Bowser Jr./ Duck Hunt finishes up before Wii U released.

See, and this is just instinct, but this release cycle has been different than all smash games. We will know all the characters and why would Sakurai hype it up at the end?

But like I said thats just a feeling and says nothing against the box honestly. In fact revealing the first dlc character at the end of the direct may be that hype character we are looking for. That's my idea right now at least.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo was announced before the Wii U game. But that was after the 3DS version released and the roster had been finished for quite a while.

Right, I mainly only thought of the Wii U version to keep things fair, because y'know, Switch also being a home console. Even then, my point still kinda stands now that I think about when Zelda got DLC announced before the game launched, and there was some not-so happy people.

I don't think it's the right route to go, honestly. I'd say post-release after a month or two.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Honestly, the Dante thing was nothing. One person in a million says we're gunna get Isabelle, someone is bound to be right. Rest was mostly following Verg so eh.

See here's my problem though, if they just had to put the characters on it why not just Mario until that side is full? That's what I would have done if I just needed to make a mock up. Why create something that intentionally leaves blank spots?

Asking legitimately, I don't want this to go into back and forth arguements. I just haven't seen anyone give a reason why the mock up would be so elaborate if they were only showing one side.

My theory is this is the order they want to do it in but blown up to size with characters removed. Besides this isn't the first time non centred grids have given us headaches. Remember the stage select?

 

[DutchPichu]

Be honest with me, we all know Incineroar is expected to be the next character but, do YOU want him in over any other choices like Skull Kid or Geno?

I want that. But Smash character appeal is all just personal preferences.

 

[Deleted member]

I did create a mock-up yesterday. I can try retrieving it but i’m on mobile. Gimme a few minutes and i’ll snag it.

EDIT:
View attachment 164428

AY YO, HOLD UP! I SEE 12 MORE SLOTS, THOUGH. WE BACK IN THIS *****, NEW "SLOT THEORY" CONFIRMED.

 

[KingIceSonic]

They should have started with Ridley and ended with K Rool. Incineroar is not a hype way to end it.

He is popular and im sure he has hisfans but the Smash Bros fanbase has been asking for K Rool since like Brawl. Much more hype behind him

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

So I just looked at drag0nscythe CSS mock up, and box theory or not, let's say the CSS is perfectly shaped with echoes stacked, and is uneven with echoes unstacked, would that change how you order them?

Personally I hate the idea of stacking the echoes, but if Drag0n is close at all with their mock up, I hate how they would look seperate :/ I'm torn.

(Of course until dlc shows up and ****s it all up anyway)

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

if the boxart thing is true i can't see anyone but ken being the echo on the back.

I can just about barely buy it even if imo if it's real nintendo ****ed up hard hyping their biggest switch game not called botw and like the one game they put all their chips into for 2018 and it's their fault for getting the backlash, but I still can't see inceneroar being the lock like it is Ken from what we know of verge's statements. I seriously think it's a coin flip between Inceneroar and geno (The only really feasible Square Enix character if there are no new stages or Final Fantasy Songs). I can buy no lycanroc or decidueye even if Lycanroc should be the alolan mon tbh.

But people comparing this to Smash 4 and Brawl's timeline fail to understand that this ain't Smash 4 or Brawl. It's their biggest and arguably only "hardcore" switch title in years and they chose not to do secret characters this time around. While it makes sense for someone like ridley to drop at E3, the smash direct already had a big character, simon belmont, if K rool really was the last smash fanbase freak out character, it would have been a lot wiser to swap K Rool and Inceneroar's spots, most fans would have been happy with a big classic 3rd party and a semi popular newer character. It's not unreasoable to call this a dissapointment when nintendo marketing has actively messed up and over raised expectations (assuming it ends on roar and no geno/skull kid/whatever). They only have themselves to blame and you shouldn't defend them for the hole they dug themselves into

 

[Staarih]

The box theory does make sense, but we only see one side of the box. Who knows what the back looks like, for example - some characters could appear there as well (not sure if it messes up the "pattern" though). So I think I'll keep these whole box shenanigans in mind, but not take it as gospel.

 

[Sharkarat]

Be honest with me, we all know Incineroar is expected to be the next character but, do YOU want him in over any other choices like Skull Kid or Geno?

To be perfectly honest, Inicineroar is pretty cool. And personally find any other choice more interesting than Geno.
So yes I want Incineroar over Geno. When it come to Skull kid it really depends on how he's done.

 

[Deleted member]

Well some clarification is nice, but regardless. I would sooner trust my own instincts over Verg, some stuff lines up with some stuff of his stuff anyway.


I stand by IF we get a new Pokemon, Tapu Koko is most likely. It's played a very prominent role in the promotion of the game, Anime and TCG. And plays crucial roles in the anime and game.

As has Necrozma and the Ultra Beasts, too. I feel like they have decent chances as well. Necrozma ended up having an entire Post-story devoted to him in the most recent game as well as the honor of essentially being the first Pokemon 'Boss' fight in the series outside of Gym Leaders & the Elite 4. And while not all the ultra beasts garnered the same attention, Pheramosa, Buzzwole, and Nihilego all had prominent roles within the game and anime (except for Pheramosa; she hasn't been seen in the anime yet).

Legends like Tapu Koko have been in every Pokemon game, but the Ultra Beasts represented a new angle of the series altogether; that of inter-dimensional Pokemon (inter-dimensional super pokemon at that). I'm not sure how likely they are in reality, but I don't think their chances should be discounted. We actually haven't seen a single Ultra Beast in as a pokeball yet either (though it may be as a 'Beast Ball' more rare than a Masterball) and I have a hard time believing that we wouldn't see at least one Ultra Beast in the game in some way, shape, or form. And, just to kind of point out how cool it is, Necrozma is the first Pokemon we've seen that actually Possesses/Absorbs other Legendary Pokemon to become ridiculously powerful. He's practically the Cell/Majin Buu of Pokemon and that's really epic. Not to mention his theme for the Ultra Necrozma was pretty cool, too.

Spoiler

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

if the boxart thing is true i can't see anyone but ken being the echo on the back.

I can just about barely buy it even if imo if it's real nintendo ****ed up hard hyping their biggest switch game not called botw and like the one game they put all their chips into for 2018 and it's their fault for getting the backlash, but I still can't see inceneroar being the lock like it is Ken from what we know of verge's statements. I seriously think it's a coin flip between Inceneroar and geno (The only really feasible Square Enix character if there are no new stages or Final Fantasy Songs). I can buy no lycanroc or decidueye even if Lycanroc should be the alolan mon tbh.

But people comparing this to Smash 4 and Brawl's timeline fail to understand that this ain't Smash 4 or Brawl. It's their biggest and arguably only "hardcore" switch title in years and they chose not to do secret characters this time around. While it makes sense for someone like ridley to drop at E3, the smash direct already had a big character, simon belmont, if K rool really was the last smash fanbase freak out character, it would have been a lot wiser to swap K Rool and Inceneroar's spots, most fans would have been happy with a big classic 3rd party and a semi popular newer character. It's not unreasoable to call this a dissapointment when nintendo marketing has actively messed up and over raised expectations (assuming it ends on roar and no geno/skull kid/whatever). They only have themselves to blame and you shouldn't defend them for the hole they dug themselves into

I personally believe the fanbase is also at fault for having expectations all over the place, myself included.

Imagine the backlash already if the last reveal would be K.Rool. People would be fuming right now that Incineroar/Ken/Isabelle are in and we still haven’t seen K.Rool.

That leads to a lot more negativity up until the very last moment, when promotional material for the LE packages would have been up for awhile. I think everybody might look at it differently, but it’s definitely not just the fault of the company making the game. Fans go overboard with expectations all the time.