Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Frostwraith]

The other franchise is Sora of Kingdom Hearts, right?

Yes, it is as Disney is heavily involved with it. And we know Sakurai cares about staying true to the franchises in Smash. Not having the Disney characters as they appear in KH, a big part of the franchise's appeal, would make for poor representation of the series in Smash.

Not to mention potential music rights and other such issues. Music copyright is one of the messiest areas when it comes to licensing.

 

[NintenRob]

To further build upon the Skull Kid thing, the sparkle is at a comparatively similar height to where he'd appear and disappear in Sm4sh.

View attachment 164417
View attachment 164418

That's because that's just where floating assist trophies come out of. Obvious when summoning it would float where it's summoned and then disappear to where it's suppose to go.

It just doesn't make sense for Skull Kid to be both kept hidden like that AND for him not to be there as it comes down. And the fact that it's just called moon suggests it's just the moon.

 

[Michele]

Guys, I'm not sure if anyone realized it yet...But remember the Nintendo Direct, and how SE announced a lot of Final Fantasy to Nintendo Switch?

This is just my speculation...But I think this may have just indirectly affected Geno's chance. Remember that he is part and owned by Square Enix. But the company publishing a lot of FF games to Switch just shows how strong the partnership is.

Perhaps Geno may be coming after all? Vergeben did say there would be a 2nd SE character.

Oh, and remember that Sakurai said he wanted to include him in Brawl but the plans fell through for unknown reasons...which could it be? And that Geno was a Mii Fighter costume in Smash 4.

 

[Danpal65]

That's because that's just where floating assist trophies come out of. Obvious when summoning it would float where it's summoned and then disappear to where it's suppose to go.

It just doesn't make sense for Skull Kid to be both kept hidden like that AND for him not to be there as it comes down. And the fact that it's just called moon suggests it's just the moon.

I can't disagree with what you're saying and I agree that there are definitely some holes that can be poked with the whole situation. I just think that there is a chance that it might be true and may be worth taking into account.

 

[Spinosaurus]

All the people pointing out that there's been instances of people theorizing roster number over missing spaces before are missing why a lot of folks are latching on to this in particular.

There's an extremely weird, extremely specific pattern that box has, a pattern that, for all intents and purposes, basically confirms that one of Palutena, Pac Man, Robin, Shulk, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Ryu and Cloud have an echo. Counting what we know, and that echo (which is extremely likely Ken), the other side basically completely and perfectly lines up with the pattern the box is showing. Way way too fittingly to not at least consider the possibility. That leaves us with one spot missing on the side we can see. I'm 100% convinced Ken is the only echo left now, at least echoes for chars we currently know, and that no other echo exists because it doesn't fit with this pattern at all. Taking this into account, if we really only have one echo left, is it really weird there might only be one newcomer left as well?

Now of course the box might not be showing everyone, or that it's a placeholder (I doubt this one, the design and the way the chars are organized is way too deliberate for it to not be final), or whatever. But the possibility is there to consider. In any case, I'll personally take this as Ken confirmation on top of being the only echo left, and basically expecting Incineroar as the only newcomer to be revealed. I'd be pleasantly surprised otherwise, of course!

 

[Frostwraith]

Guys, I'm not sure if anyone realized it yet...But remember the Nintendo Direct, and how SE announced a lot of Final Fantasy to Nintendo Switch?

This is just my speculation...But I think this may have just indirectly affected Geno's chance. Remember that he is part and owned by Square Enix. But the company publishing a lot of FF games to Switch just shows how strong the partnership is.

Perhaps Geno may be coming after all? Vergeben did say there would be a 2nd SE character.

Maybe, but all those FF games are also coming out on Xbox One, so it might just be Square Enix making those existing games multi-platform as opposed to being PC and PS exclusive.

This said, there likely were negotiations between Nintendo and Square Enix, so there may be more to those than bringing FF games to the Switch.

 

[Untouch]

I was thinking... what if that mystery box that wasn't shown off during the online portion of the direct is related to smash DLC in some way? It'd make sense that they don't want to show it off yet. Perhaps its related to smash DLC in some way?

 

[Tree Gelbman]

My favorite thing about the dumb box theory is putting thought processes and words into Verge's mouth to fit the agenda, when prior these same people were all on Verge's word as biblical and not doubtful.

''We at least have Incineroar, Ken, and a Square Rep"

Became ''He never seemed all that confident in his Square rep anyways." Like I love Push to death, but seeing him championing this portion made me head desk.

Yeah, you sure about that? You sure that he's not confident just because he can't name who it is? I mean if he wasn't confident? He very much could just not even say Square rep at all.

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

The whole theory is a ****ing mess of jumping to conclusions and thinking it's rock solid evidence.

Long story didn't read?

There's at least 3 newcomers left. Not 2. And I seriously have doubts we only have one echo left and it's just Ken from Street Fighter.

 

[Danpal65]

My favorite thing about the dumb box theory is putting thought processes and words into Verge's mouth to fit the agenda, when prior these same people were all on Verge's word as biblical and not doubtful.

''We at least have Incineroar, Ken, and a Square Rep"

Became ''He never seemed all that confident in his Square rep anyways." Like I love Push to death, but seeing him championing this portion made me head desk.

Yeah, you sure about that? You sure that he's not confident just because he can't name who it is? I mean if he wasn't confident? He very much could just not even say Square rep at all.

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

The whole theory is a ****ing mess of jumping to conclusions and thinking it's rock solid evidence.

Long story didn't read?

There's at least 3 newcomers left. Not 2. And I seriously have doubts we only have one echo left and it's just Ken from Street Fighter.

This is assuming Verge is correct, which is certainly possible. What we've got here are two contradicting rumours, which is interesting because both have believable credibility (to some people). Whatever the result of this one is wrong and the other is correct, we don't know who it is at this stage though.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

Where'd you get this? The idea is that Ken is already on the other side, we just obviously can't see him. That's the only way the pattern makes sense, because Corrin wouldn't have been pushed to the side we're seeing otherwise.

 

[HyruleHero]

A little late on this, but for people thinking that Dragon Quest is a likely franchise to be in Smash, I'm afraid it's not.

The reasoning would be licensing matters, as unlike most other Square Enix franchises, the franchise isn't just owned by Square Enix.

The other IP owners include Armor Project (creator Yuji Horii's company), Bird Studio (character designer Akira Toriyama's studio) and music composer Koichi Sugiyama (who's particularly infamous for being extremely stingy with his music, not to mention other controversial political stances but I'm not going to elaborate on those).

In other words, they need to get authorization from 4 entities to get Dragon Quest content in Smash. When Square Enix is already notably difficult to negotiate with (as evidenced by the lack of FF content, with even Ultimate having only 2 songs), you add two more IP owners and, for the music alone, an artist known for being very protective of his music.

It's definitely not an easy franchise to get the rights to. And the fact it's not as popular outside of Japan (meaning less recognition) makes it a very risky addition.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I find the chances of it being extremely low.

The other big Square Enix franchise people want to see in Smash is also another licensing nightmare considering the other company involved in it. So, with all this said, I think a second Square Enix character, if it happens, might just be Geno or perhaps a character from Bravely Default.

Wow I didn't think there was a franchise that was harder to get than Kingdom Hearts - guess that means Squares next big franchise to appear in smash will be Kingdom Hearts after all (I can dream right).

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Personally I think its a placeholder done in the style they want to do the final one in

 

[Dandelionel]

My favorite thing about the dumb box theory is putting thought processes and words into Verge's mouth to fit the agenda, when prior these same people were all on Verge's word as biblical and not doubtful.

''We at least have Incineroar, Ken, and a Square Rep"

Became ''He never seemed all that confident in his Square rep anyways." Like I love Push to death, but seeing him championing this portion made me head desk.

Yeah, you sure about that? You sure that he's not confident just because he can't name who it is? I mean if he wasn't confident? He very much could just not even say Square rep at all.

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

The whole theory is a ****ing mess of jumping to conclusions and thinking it's rock solid evidence.

Long story didn't read?

There's at least 3 newcomers left. Not 2. And I seriously have doubts we only have one echo left and it's just Ken from Street Fighter.

I mean, Ken is iconic. It makes sense that he would be the last echo fighter instead of something that would scrap the bottom of the barrel like Black Knight

 

[MainJPW]

Just read through the pages since the cardboard box revelation. That’s a lot to swallow.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Can’t wait to play Isabelle in smash.

 

[Deleted member]

I just remembered, they're going to be selling Smash Bros. Ultimate Limited Editions of a Switch on November 2nd. Not a pre-order date, like, ACTUAL selling date. They also come included with a copy of Smash Ultimate, or at least a download code.

Isn't it a tiny bit strange that they'd be selling the game essentially a month before official release? I don't necessarily know how pre-purchasing games are on the Switch, but couldn't there be some datamine or bypass to get into the game? It seems very strange that they're selling the game a month ahead and we STILL have more characters to reveal.

What do you guys think? I'm... I'm just confused.

 

[Frostwraith]

I definitely think that people are putting way too much credit on the box theory.

I think this is exactly the kind of thing Source Gaming tends to criticize about the Smash fanbase and rightfully so, but they're now exactly peddling the same kind of baseless speculation they usually condemn.

Wow I didn't think there was a franchise that was harder to get than Kingdom Hearts - guess that means Squares next big franchise to appear in smash will be Kingdom Hearts after all (I can dream right).

Not really when Kingdom Hearts has the involvement of Disney, a big company (bigger than Nintendo, mind that) that is also very stingy with their IPs.

I think that Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts are both licensing nightmares so big, they are more than what the Smash Bros. team can handle, especially considering Final Fantasy likely represents a large portion of the licensing budget considering its lack of content, especially with Ultimate only having 2 songs from FF.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Where'd you get this? The idea is that Ken is already on the other side, we just obviously can't see him. That's the only way the pattern makes sense, because Corrin wouldn't have been pushed to the side we're seeing otherwise.

If we're going off that whole other side that we can't even see? The whole thing is even more of a mess, because you don't even know who or what is being shown on that side.

That's just a whole other side of potential evidence shut off and makes the whole thing even more dumb.

That's how flimsy this whole thing is.

Ryu and Ken could easily be on either side of the box and it'd make sense to have Ryu next to Bayonetta and Cloud if they're going in order of appearance in the series on the box art, neither are next to Bayonetta, but Bayonetta is there next to Inkling who immediately joined the series after her, and the line of succession continues from there.

My head legit hurts how anyone thinks any of this flimsy **** is evidence of what's left.

 

[Zinith]

Black Knight is not what I'd call "scraping the bottom of the barrel"

 

[Chrono.]

Its kinda funny this is the only place I've seen so far to fully discuss the box theory.

Most I've seen of Twitter and Reddit have dismissed it as meaningless or silly to look into. Same goes for YT comments on stuff like GameXplain's video.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Ken is also like, the original clone. He's the perfect echo to end it on.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

My favorite thing about the dumb box theory is putting thought processes and words into Verge's mouth to fit the agenda, when prior these same people were all on Verge's word as biblical and not doubtful.

''We at least have Incineroar, Ken, and a Square Rep"

Became ''He never seemed all that confident in his Square rep anyways." Like I love Push to death, but seeing him championing this portion made me head desk.

Yeah, you sure about that? You sure that he's not confident just because he can't name who it is? I mean if he wasn't confident? He very much could just not even say Square rep at all.

Also to fit Ken on the box you'd have to shrink portraits to put him next to Ryu anyways. Who isn't even on the box art in the first place. You'd have to add him back, put Ken next to him. And then that throws at least Inkling to the bottom row, if not Bayonetta as well.

The whole theory is a ****ing mess of jumping to conclusions and thinking it's rock solid evidence.

Long story didn't read?

There's at least 3 newcomers left. Not 2. And I seriously have doubts we only have one echo left and it's just Ken from Street Fighter.

I agree that this box theory that I'm catching up on isn't compatible with Verg is saying...unless the very first dlc character is the SE rep and they are revealed in the final direct.

But I just wanted to point out you're misunderstanding the Ryu thing. Ryu is on the other side of the box. Every 9 characters the sides swap so Palutena - Cloud is on the other side, but that's only 8 characters so one of those must have an echo. Watch either Game explains or Source Gamings videos on it they probably explain it better.

Btw idk how I feel about the box theory yet. I'm not liking it but I think that's more based on I don't want the final reveals to be Ken and Incineroar Although we have no clue it's Incineroar.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Still this asinine box thing.

I'm so tired of it already that I need Sakurai to reveal a Smash direct for next week. It's that stupid of a theory.

It’s really not that stupid, and I think that insinuating it’s stupid is asinine.

As the main person to bring it up yesterday, there is a pattern that has been established by the box. I have introduced potential evidence as to how or why this may be the real deal.

A user in Twitter has introduced some ideas.

vaanrose has introduced ideas on why the box would be that way.

If people keep saying it’s stupid, I will literally take the time to screenshot everyone saying that and mention it IF it’s confirmed.

I don’t think it’s wrong to think it isn’t true. Trunk what you want. I think it’s wrong to instantly deny it because, “muh other leaks that said stuff like this have been wrong”. That’s a massive generalization, and those also haven’t been backed by potential evidence that matches up.

Really not trying to be a prick, but most of the people disagreeing are saying it’s dumb, and then not providing anything to refute it.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Let’s change the poll for this:

Do you think that Ken and Incineroar are the only two characters left, and how does that make you feel?

• There are only two characters left, and that is sad since it feels incomplete.
• There are only two characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There will be more characters, and there had better be since this is incomplete.

It seems that people are getting a bit hostile against people who don’t go with their side...

 

[Cosmic77]

I don't think people understand that the box doesn't include Isabelle, so we'd actually only get one character if it were true. The characters are put in groups of nine. Starting with Corrin and ending at K. Rool, that would be seven characters. Isabelle would be the eighth.

Even if Pokemon Trainer is listed as one character, this would mean we're only getting three more characters, Echoes included. Personally, I just don't see that being the case at all.

 

[MSmariosonic]

I can see the original eight being highlighted on the back of the box instead of the left side since they are the ones available from the start.

And with all that attention the original eight get on the smash switch and the main menu I could actually see them getting a similar treatment on the box art.


Or we could just get Ken and Incineroar only...

 

[Spinosaurus]

If we're going off that whole other side that we can't even see? The whole thing is even more of a mess, because you don't even know who or what is being shown on that side.

That's just a whole other side of potential evidence shut off and makes the whole thing even more dumb.

That's how flimsy this whole thing is.

Ryu and Ken could easily be on either side of the box and it'd make sense to have Ryu next to Bayonetta and Cloud if they're going in order of appearance in the series on the box art, neither are next to Bayonetta, but Bayonetta is there next to Inkling who immediately joined the series after her, and the line of succession continues from there.

My head legit hurts how anyone thinks any of this flimsy **** is evidence of what's left.

Are you...keeping up with the theory at all? We have one side with a very clear pattern on it, with it we can figure out the ordering of the other side, which lines up if we include Ken, a heavily rumored character. One side tells all.

 

[ThreeT]

Just to let people know, I don't think there will be another Final Fantasy Rep. This is because they consider Cloud in smash to be a part of Final Fantasy VII and not just Final Fantasy. If they wanted to make another rep, they would have changed it to Final Fantasy. Also there would likely be more music too, but clearly we still have two.

 

[lizard1929]

Verge has already done some damage.
If he's.....
correct: It'll be a hype killer for Incineroar and Ken (Supporters of these characters are going to be in Isabelle supporter's seat)
wrong: The smash community goes out attacking Verge (and potentially each other depending on the environment at the time)

Not looking pretty, I am starting to just accept the current roster (it is impressive).

 

[Chrono.]

Let’s change the poll for this:

Do you think that Ken and Incineroar are the only two characters left, and how does that make you feel?

• There are only two characters left, and that is sad since it feels incomplete.
• There are only two characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There will be more characters, and there had better be since this is incomplete.

It seems that people are getting a bit hostile against people who don’t go with their side...

I think Ken and Incineroar are fine to end it on because the game will keep living through DLC.

I don't see them as the end all be all.

 

[DutchPichu]

Black Knight please. Don't be an echo. We already have TWO Fire Emblem echoes. Can't Black Knight be a boss?

 

[JaidynReiman]

Let’s change the poll for this:

Do you think that Ken and Incineroar are the only two characters left, and how does that make you feel?

• There are only two characters left, and that is sad since it feels incomplete.
• There are only two characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There will be more characters, and there had better be since this is incomplete.

It seems that people are getting a bit hostile against people who don’t go with their side...

No I don't. I think there are two characters left and Ken is one of them, but I DO NOT think the other is Incineroar.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It just seems really really really really really really ugly box design to have Ryu and Cloud on the other side of the box away from Bayonetta and Corrin ruining the whole order of appearance in the series with echoes next to who they belong to thing it's got going on. Why would you stick one half of the Smash 4 DLC on one side and then throw the last two on the other side?

On top of that?

You'd have parts of the Ultimate newcomers on the other side of the box as well away from everyone else.

Just gross design choice if true.

Which is why it's most likely not.

 

[Frostwraith]

Good thing all I wanted for Ultimate was 3DS/Wii U roster + Ice Climbers, Snake and Wolf.

So, even just having all veterans back was already beyond my expectations, let alone newcomers like Ridley or Simon Belmont.

 

[Danpal65]

Let’s change the poll for this:

Do you think that Ken and Incineroar are the only two characters left, and how does that make you feel?

• There are only two characters left, and that is sad since it feels incomplete.
• There are only two characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There will be more characters, and there had better be since this is incomplete.

It seems that people are getting a bit hostile against people who don’t go with their side...

I'm in the "There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is" camp but alongside that, I'm unconvinced Incineroar would be the other character if there is only 2. Ken, I can see, but Incineroar I'm unsure would be the case.

 

[MainJPW]

Its kinda funny this is the only place I've seen so far to fully discuss the box theory.

Most I've seen of Twitter and Reddit have dismissed it as meaningless or silly to look into. Same goes for YT comments on stuff like GameXplain's video.

Makes sense. This is the forum dedicated to all things Smash after all.

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

Let’s change the poll for this:

Do you think that Ken and Incineroar are the only two characters left, and how does that make you feel?

• There are only two characters left, and that is sad since it feels incomplete.
• There are only two characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There will be more characters, and there had better be since this is incomplete.

It seems that people are getting a bit hostile against people who don’t go with their side...

If I Hey are. It’d Be a bit of a bit of a bummer for me. If this is the case, Inciniroar, Isabelle, and Inkling are the only new comers 8 really wanted to come in

 

[MSmariosonic]

Let’s change the poll for this:

Do you think that Ken and Incineroar are the only two characters left, and how does that make you feel?

• There are only two characters left, and that is sad since it feels incomplete.
• There are only two characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There may be more characters, but the roster is fine as is.
• There will be more characters, and there had better be since this is incomplete.

It seems that people are getting a bit hostile against people who don’t go with their side...

I think there might be a slight chance of more characters but I'm either way happy with how the roster is now.

Snake and Ridley were my most wanted during the smash 4 era.

So I couldn't be more satisfied.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Makes sense. This is the forum dedicated to all things Smash after all.

Even then we can tend to get hung up on some really dumb things as well.

This is one of them in my opinion.

If there's not at least 3 newcomers left?

I will settle this somehow. I'll change my name to something really dumb or something, but I have 100 percent faith, people following this theory are so wrong.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I feel like people are thinking I’m out to be “the guy who was right about the box theory”. I’m not. I’m presenting it because I can see it happening, and that mass denial COULD (see COULD) cause massive butthurt/salt.

All I am saying is to consider it. Some aren’t doing that at all and are saying that i’m “An idiot” or “stupid”. Thanks. That’s a great example of discourse.

It’s even better because the people saying those things haven’t provided evidence (in my humble opinion) that any of it is wrong aside from, “I think there’s more”.

I don’t have an issue with most people being skeptical. I DO have a problem with completely dismissing it and being an ass about it.

I’ve been mostly civil, and have apologized already if I originally came off a certain way.

Not to be a prick. But I just might have to come through if this ends up true with a de facto “I told you so”. I like the character speculation community because it’s fun to talk about this stuff. But I also don’t want dreams squashed, or crashing and burning because of great expectations that aren’t met.

I’m just trying to help, POTENTIALLY, soften the blow. Instead i’m getting effectively insulted.

I would gladly be wrong, and we get more. Really, I would. But based on what I know, i’m convinced.