Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Cosmic77]

I'm really tired of the whole "Verg said no DK reps!" and "Verg asked Loz for info" when he didn't. He got the info from a shaky source so he asked what seemed to be the only other legit leaker to help with that but imstead Loz acted like a 13-year old seeking for attention and went "See? Verg is fake!". Leaks aren't a game, Verg doesn't lose credibility for "cheating" by asking someone to help him.
Also, why is Minecraft representation shaky? Shovel Knight, Monster Hunter and Bomberman have shown 3rd Party franchises don't need to necessarily be playable to get representation

To start, I never said that Verge thought we weren't getting new DK reps. My point is that he thought it could be true, meaning he had absolutely no idea K. Rool was in the game. Doesn't hurt his credibility, but it's pretty insane that he somehow missed K. Rool of all people.

It's not fair to call Loz immature for sharing the PM between him and Verge, especially when the latter was being so secretive in the past few weeks. Instead of flat-out telling us that the new Pokemon was rumored to be Incineroar, he made a game out of it and "disconfirmed" three characters. Then he followed up with that by talking to other leakers in private to ensure that his own predictions on the Direct were flawless and on-point instead of just being upfront with us and saying, "Here's what I've been told to expect. Not entirely confident in the source, so I'm not sure if it's true."

Both Verge and Loz have their own issues, and it's hard to defend most of their actions at this point.

 

[praline]

Man, who even ARE my most wanted at this point? So many of my "most wanteds" have been confirmed!

Rayman
Elma
Karate Joe
Erdrick
Spring Man
Tails
Ryu Hayabusa
Geno
Banjo-Kazooie
Isaac

My most wanted are mostly third parties now.
Isaac, Dixie, Skull Kid, Nightmare, Jill, Erdrick, Eight, Soma, Crono, Geno, Banjo Kazooie

 

[Paperchampion23]

So what does everyone think about this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...rtain_a_golden_sun/?utm_source=reddit-android

This actually make a lot more sense now if it's a tease.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Id be a very happy man if Blaze got in smash

You, you're a good person.

More third party rules that Sakurai has shown he can break.

Yeah, I'm fairly certain that Morrigan will get in sooner or later.

Have you guys heard about the Ultimate demo that will be playable has the 8 starters from the original 64 game but they swapped Yoshi out with Ness? Makes you wonder what is hiding behind Yoshi's final smash at this point. Also makes you wonder why we haven't seen Daisy's final smash either. (AFAIK)

Both Daisy AND Peach's. This is conspicuously odd. Aside from "Spirits" and the rest of the unconfirmed roster, this is the biggest mystery in this game right now.

 

[ColtonS25]

I'm starting to get the feeling that anyone suggesting a character from a Xenoblade sequel as an echo of Monado Boy must not have played those games.
I mean I just started XBC myself and I think the only character who even comes close to filling that role is Dunban.

Really? I thought every Xenoblade character was an anime swordsman. Except Tatsu. Tatsu could be a Bayonetta Echo.

In all seriousness, Smash doesn't necessarily represent the diversity of a series. I mean, look at Fire Emblem. There are so many cool mages, axe users, lance users, and more. Yet the closest we have to magic is Robin, and he still uses swords. Most of the time, Smash takes the popular characters, and they happen to be similar weapon classes with Fire Emblem specifically.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I know my opinion on him has been very well expressed, but what is everyones opinion on goemon. Outside the fact that bomberman is no longer an option.

 

[praline]

I know my opinion on him has been very well expressed, but what is everyones opinion on goemon. Outside the fact that bomberman is no longer an option.

Goemon is cool, but I’d prefer a stage for the music from his games

 

[CosmicQuark]

This reminds me of what one of my college professors would always say. "Your writing is your credibility". She insisted on it, and I can agree there. If they misspell names, it can kind of show that they didn't care enough to make things look better and just wanted to get a leak out there to get attention.

I've disagreed with my own professors on that--yes, it's still important for grading assessments. But the whole point of spelling and grammar is to facilitate communication. So long as errors don't lead to ambiguity, or changing the meaning of the statement, I find it to be nit-picky. For instance, if a leaker were to say "Boshi is in!" but they really meant Yoshi, that would give people like Zinith false hope. However, if a leaker said "Boshy is in!" but they really meant Boshi, it doesn't change the factual accuracy of the statement (assuming the leaker is 100% trustworthy, which is never the case anyways). But I'm a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist, and in general, I know everyone is capable of error, which I don't want to fault people ("Failure is always an option").

So, when it comes to how trustworthy leakers are, my barometer is simply accuracy, trustworthy, and bias. How accurate have they been? Verge has apparently made some terrible errors, but with Smash they've been 100% accurate so far (some say they're vague/taking from others, but that goes in the trustworthy category if true). Loz got the E3 Direct spot on, but failed on many significant points in the August Direct. Trustworthy is how well known a leaker is, do they have known ties to the industry, are they a part of a reputable source (like a news outlet). And bias is simply if they have anything to gain for their claims to be believed, or if they show a preference one way or the other. Loz made my eyes roll out of their socket with Loz obsessively posting about Skull Kid on Twitter, and as I've said before, "Legend of Zelda 13" should not be trusted on anything Zelda related, full stop. If I were to take a guess, it sounds like they got E3 info, but wanted attention, and wanted more people talking about Skull Kid (which, if that were the reason, it worked!). Sometimes bias could lead to passionately seeking out the truth, but could also very well cloud their judgement.

 

[IronTed]

The fact Verge didn't publicly say "K. Rool's not in guys" makes him more credible. He has horrid vetting skills, so for him to not immediately blurt rumors out is honestly for the best. Keep in mind not all supposed "leakers" say everything they know, Matt from ERA is a credible example of this.

 

[LucR]

So what does everyone think about this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...rtain_a_golden_sun/?utm_source=reddit-android

This actually make a lot more sense now if it's a tease.

If this was any other game, I'd say it was a coincidence... But Sakurai doesn't do coincidences. I think Isaac's in. To be fair, I always thought he'd be in, but the picture all but confirms it.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Goemon is cool, but I’d prefer a stage for the music from his games

One reason i want him to be dlc if we are not getting more stages

 

[NintenZ]

This was posted on 4Chan:
http://boards.4chan.org/v/thread/430123610

Startropics wasn’t released in Japan and it looks very 2D so I don’t think this is real. Sorry.

 

[Slavic]

Really? I thought every Xenoblade character was an anime swordsman. Except Tatsu. Tatsu could be a Bayonetta Echo.

In all seriousness, Smash doesn't necessarily represent the diversity of a series. I mean, look at Fire Emblem. There are so many cool mages, axe users, lance users, and more. Yet the closest we have to magic is Robin, and he still uses swords. Most of the time, Smash takes the popular characters, and they happen to be similar weapon classes with Fire Emblem specifically.

There may be a lot of anime swords in Xenoblade, but they are all different!

XC has God Sword, XCX has Gun Sword, XC2 has Girl Sword

 

[WertQuadNine]

If this was any other game, I'd say it was a coincidence... But Sakurai doesn't do coincidences. I think Isaac's in. To be fair, I always thought he'd be in, but the picture all but confirms it.

"all but confirms it" My guy this is the worst mindset to have when looking at speculation. There's still a large chance this was just a nod and not an actual tease at all.

 

[Deleted member]

So here's a little game.

Disregard how likely you think the characters are.

Tell us how interested or satisfied you'd be with the character if included.

Incineroar - No thank you. I'm not really interested in a Pokemon newcomer, and Incineroar is one of my least favorite Pokemon.

Ken - I reaaaaaallllyyyyyy don't like Ken. Like, really really don't like him. I won't be mad if he's in, but I'm not gonna be happy about it either.

Isabelle - Currently sitting in my top 3 with Skull Kid and Octolings. Needless to say, I'd be hyped!

Geno - I unfortunately have yet to finish Super Mario RPG, but it's a game I definitely plan on revisiting someday so seeing Geno would be cool. Honestly, I'd just be happy that SOMETHING meaningful from the Mario RPGs was finally represented in Smash.

Isaac - I kinda want it to happen for the sake of his fans. I have never played Golden Sun and I probably won't ever have the time to with all the other games I play, but Isaac just sounds like a fun idea. He would make a lot of folks happy, which I would be a-okay with.

Monster Hunter - Neat idea, Monster Hunter has enough varied combat to play around with to make an interesting moveset.

Lloyd Irving - I watched my brother play through Symphonia and I'm a big Tales of Vesperia and Abyss fan, so seeing anything from that series get in would make my year.

Dixie Kong - I want this a toooon. K. Rool is amazing, but DK won't really feel complete until Dixie's there IMO.

Impa - I just want a new Zelda character. I don't care who it is, I just want 'em and will happily take them.

Skull Kid - One of the few things that could get me more excited than Inkling did. Majora's Mask is my second most favorite video game of all time, only beaten by Super Mario Odyssey. It's a game I'm very passionate about, so needless to say, yes. HECK YES.

Black Shadow - ...Nah. I like F-Zero, but this would kinda feel like throwing in a character for the sake of it. I wouldn't be upset if it happened, though; I'd be happy F-Zero fans got something new. :D

Bandana Waddle Dee - PLEASE. I will never ask for anything ever again Sakurai, just please give me a new Kirby character.

Ninten - I love Mother/Earthbound, but this kinda goes back to what my thoughts are on Black Shadow: It'd feel like doing an Echo just for the sake of doing one. I wouldn't mind, but I'm not really gonna be excited for it.

Diskun - Nah.

Raiden - Yeah, I'd be down with this.

Big Boss - Forget Raiden, THIS is who I want to see!

Shadow - HERE WE GO BUDDY HERE WE GO BUDDY, HERE WE GO.

Elma - It'd remind me that I still have yet to finish Xenoblade X, lol. She has a fantastic design, cool voicework and amazing moveset potential; if we're getting a Xenoblade character, I hope it's her.

Rex and Pyra - "OKAY."

Jeanne - If you don't have anything nice to say, say nothing at all. That's what I'm gonna go with on this one.

Spring Man - I like ARMS. I'd be cool with it.

Wonder Red - Better than...other choices from this company IMO.

 

[Graizen]

This was posted on 4Chan:

 

[Paperchampion23]

If this was any other game, I'd say it was a coincidence... But Sakurai doesn't do coincidences. I think Isaac's in. To be fair, I always thought he'd be in, but the picture all but confirms it.

Seriously, if you know anything about Golden Sun lore, the Marth-Mars/Shulk-Jupiter thing is actually ridiculous lol. But you have to play Golden Sun to get why this is such a big deal

 

[Mc.Rad]

I do think that Sakurai is showing some restraint on some franchises. Fire Emblem and Mario getting echoes in that without any new character seems suspicious. This is what kinda made me think that the list may be more rep conscious. I mean Mario fans were wanting Waluigi in the game but we got Daisy as an echo. It’s kinda odd to see this level of restraint because usually Sakurai just goes ham in these cases. I’m thinking that this has some alterior motives in it. While Ridley and K Rool are popular picks, Waluigi and Ashley were also popular picks. I do think that there will be an effort to balance out the roster finally.

I will also add that Kirby also had two unique newcomers when Brawl was out and so did Fire Emblem. I think F-Zero will finally get a boost like that in this game, if not then it would be pointless to have Falcon around if they don’t even try to give him other reps from his franchise.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Man, who even ARE my most wanted at this point? So many of my "most wanteds" have been confirmed!

Rayman
Elma
Karate Joe
Erdrick
Spring Man
Tails
Ryu Hayabusa
Geno
Banjo-Kazooie
Isaac

We listing most wanted again?

Sure

Banjo-Kazooie
Heihachi Mishima
Tails
Chun-Li
Leon S. Kennedy / Jill Valentine
Lara Croft
Decidueye
Bandana Dee
Skull Kid
Segata Sanshiro

 

[hazza5557]

How many people are planning on stacking echoes and how many are planning and having them separated? I’m definitely having them separate because they each feel like their own character and I want to make the roster look as big as possible.

 

[Michele]

To be honest, while I do see peoples who wants Shadow as echo of Sonic...

I am surprised he has not been leaked yet. Vergeben and Loz did say characters, but they never said anything about Shadow. Could it be they think he is not in?

 

[?????????????]

How many people are planning on stacking echoes and how many are planning and having them separated? I’m definitely having them separate because they each feel like their own character and I want to make the roster look as big as possible.

I'm separating it.

 

[osby]

So since the roster gives you the option to condense and swap the portraits of Echoes with their originals, are there any Echoes / potential Echoes you would swap with the originals? (Assuming you don't jut keep them all separated like I'm sure 99% of us are going to do)

I would definitely replace Roy with Chrom, because Chrom in basically every way in my eyes is a superior character to Roy. If Isabelle got in as an Echo, I would definitely replace Villager with her since she has more of a concrete character.

Definitely Richter, he is the better Belmont. And Dark Pit, tend to play as him more.

EDIT: Though separate slots is better.

 

[potato69]

This was posted on 4Chan:

View attachment 161596

When people said they wanted to play as Master Hand I don't think this is what they meant.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Man, who even ARE my most wanted at this point? So many of my "most wanteds" have been confirmed!

Rayman
Elma
Karate Joe
Erdrick
Spring Man
Tails
Ryu Hayabusa
Geno
Banjo-Kazooie
Isaac

May as well list my most wanted once again haha

Chorus Kids
Elma
Bandana Waddle Dee
Isaac
Neku
Dante
Dixie Kong
Zack
Twintelle
Lloyd
KOS-MOS

 

[IronTed]

To be honest, while I do see peoples who wants Shadow as echo of Sonic...

I am surprised he has not been leaked yet. Vergeben and Loz did say characters, but they never said anything about Shadow. Could it be they think he is not in?

Or they just don't know, these guys don't know every detail. Verge called Simon yet didn't call Richter for example.

 

[Fenriraga]

There may be a lot of anime swords in Xenoblade, but they are all different!

XC has God Sword, XCX has Gun Sword, XC2 has Girl Sword

Also if Issac does make it and his tag line is anything other than "Lends a Hand" I will be sorely disappointed.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Stacking them. I believe the css will be built with that in mind. That is why i only suspect 3 more original characters

 

[Deleted member]

Most wanted are Protector, Wonder-Red and Crono. None of them are happening but I'd kill for, like, at least one music track
I'm still really scared that they might have cut the two TW101 tracks due to how the music selection works now

 

[SonicMario]

So since the roster gives you the option to condense and swap the portraits of Echoes with their originals, are there any Echoes / potential Echoes you would swap with the originals? (Assuming you don't jut keep them all separated like I'm sure 99% of us are going to do)

I would definitely replace Roy with Chrom, because Chrom in basically every way in my eyes is a superior character to Roy. If Isabelle got in as an Echo, I would definitely replace Villager with her since she has more of a concrete character.

If you can swap the portraits and have them stay that way like menu options then yes I'm swapping Chrom over Roy as well. Though there's no other echo I'll do that for. I may end up using Dark Samus more then Regular Samus but I'm not going to take her away from the front of the roster.

And I like Marth, Pit, Peach, and Simon more then Lucina, Dark Pit, Daisy, and Richter overall. (I'm generally ok with Lucina and Richter being in though. Dark Pit and Daisy though? Not so much :V)

How many people are planning on stacking echoes and how many are planning and having them separated? I’m definitely having them separate because they each feel like their own character and I want to make the roster look as big as possible.

Also in case the previous thing didn't make it clear. I'm stacking them myself.

To be honest, while I do see peoples who wants Shadow as echo of Sonic...

I am surprised he has not been leaked yet. Vergeben and Loz did say characters, but they never said anything about Shadow. Could it be they think he is not in?

None of the echoes were ever leaked. Ken is literally the first echo Verge is predicting (I guess Isabelle as well, but I believe at the time Verge said he believed Isabelle was in it was before Echo Fighters were considered to be a major thing). Daisy, Richter, Chrom, and Dark Samus were never mentioned.

 

[ColtonS25]

I've disagreed with my own professors on that--yes, it's still important for grading assessments. But the whole point of spelling and grammar is to facilitate communication. So long as errors don't lead to ambiguity, or changing the meaning of the statement, I find it to be nit-picky. For instance, if a leaker were to say "Boshi is in!" but they really meant Yoshi, that would give people like Zinith false hope. However, if a leaker said "Boshy is in!" but they really meant Boshi, it doesn't change the factual accuracy of the statement (assuming the leaker is 100% trustworthy, which is never the case anyways). But I'm a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist, and in general, I know everyone is capable of error, which I don't want to fault people ("Failure is always an option").

So, when it comes to how trustworthy leakers are, my barometer is simply accuracy, trustworthy, and bias. How accurate have they been? Verge has apparently made some terrible errors, but with Smash they've been 100% accurate so far (some say they're vague/taking from others, but that goes in the trustworthy category if true). Loz got the E3 Direct spot on, but failed on many significant points in the August Direct. Trustworthy is how well known a leaker is, do they have known ties to the industry, are they a part of a reputable source (like a news outlet). And bias is simply if they have anything to gain for their claims to be believed, or if they show a preference one way or the other. Loz made my eyes roll out of their socket with Loz obsessively posting about Skull Kid on Twitter, and as I've said before, "Legend of Zelda 13" should not be trusted on anything Zelda related, full stop. If I were to take a guess, it sounds like they got E3 info, but wanted attention, and wanted more people talking about Skull Kid (which, if that were the reason, it worked!). Sometimes bias could lead to passionately seeking out the truth, but could also very well cloud their judgement.

That's a good point, and I do understand where you're coming from. We are all human and make mistakes, that's definitely the truth.

On the internet, writing is primary way to express your ideas. We might not have the full story when it comes to every person on the internet, so I know we shouldn't be quick to judge or anything. I can also agree that if a leaker has been right about certain things, then we should at least give them some attention. Writing isn't the only thing I look for when it comes to credibility, but it can be a useful indicator.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

I know my opinion on him has been very well expressed, but what is everyones opinion on goemon. Outside the fact that bomberman is no longer an option.

Danged awesome and a shame that he's been completely ignored for Snake. Maybe he might finally get in this time, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

This was posted on 4Chan:

View attachment 161596

To these people, I say "nice try". More convincing than other leaks I've seen up to now.

 

[Buzzwole]

I know my opinion on him has been very well expressed, but what is everyones opinion on goemon. Outside the fact that bomberman is no longer an option.

Absolutely love Goemon and would LOVE for him to be in Smash. It's such a great series.

Unfortunately I don't think he's got a chance. Nobody really talks about him anymore these days, and Konami already has two series represented in Smash.

 

[Mc.Rad]

So what does everyone think about this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...rtain_a_golden_sun/?utm_source=reddit-android

This actually make a lot more sense now if it's a tease.

I mean, Dr.Stewarts machine appears in the pictures for Mute City SNES and Big Blue... I don’t know what that means though.

 

[?????????????]

I know my opinion on him has been very well expressed, but what is everyones opinion on goemon. Outside the fact that bomberman is no longer an option.

I doubt he'd be in before Bomberman, but he'd be awesome. Goemon would be great in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

This was posted on 4Chan:

View attachment 161596

I have no idea who this funky little dude is but I support him.

 

[Deleted member]

Most wanted list, eh? After the last Direct, I honestly don't have that many wants left, but here are the ones I can think of that'd get me excited:

1. Dixie
2. Bandana Waddle Dee
3. Isabelle
4. Skull Kid
5. Octolings

That's about it for me. Unfortunately, Isabelle is probably the only one on this list I think actually has a shot at being in, but who knows; maybe I'll get as lucky as I did with my wish for more DK and Metroid stuff, lol.

 

[Michele]

None of the echoes were ever leaked. Ken is literally the first echo Verge is predicting (I guess Isabelle as well, but I believe at the time Verge said he believed Isabelle was in it was before Echo Fighters were considered to be a major thing). Daisy, Richter, Chrom, and Dark Samus were never mentioned.

I know that leakers don't know everything. But, what I'm saying is by this point one of the two could have said a word about him.

 

[praline]

This was posted on 4Chan:

View attachment 161596

That would be so insane... I love it.

I have no idea who this funky little dude is but I support him.

He’s from a jenky game on the n64 called Glover. It’s about that glove guy and he had to get a ball through a level. It was pretty hard.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I mean, Dr.Stewarts machine appears in the pictures for Mute City SNES and Big Blue... I don’t know what that means though.

Actually I realized something about it. If you add one (Mighty Gazelles number, shown in Big Blue) to Dr Clash’ Number you get Black Bulls machine number. You can also subtract one from itself to get Deathborns Machine number...

Ok nvm, I guess this is sort of legit then...