Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

especially since it appears that he is not a big fan of Shinichi Shimomura's games AKA the Dark Matter Trilogy, and he may exclude those characters just for personal preferences

I never realised Sakurai wasn't responsible of these games so this is a wake up call for me.
Looks like Dark Matter might be in the same boat as Dee (except irrelevant, though it looks like he's gonna appear in Star Allies) for now.

 

[Luminario]

I still stand by my belief that reverting them into alts is extremely spiteful to their fans (I don't even care for them myself) and that it's better to just cut them altogether if they're not going to have their own slots.

I still don't get this mindset. I'd much rather have Lucina as an alt of Marth rather than being cut altogether. I mean, they're clones, so besides a few small changes they're pretty identical to their source characters anyway with legitimate reasons to be alts as they were planned for in the first place. Yes, it's not ideal and those clone mechanics will be missed sorta, but if they're running thin on time and the clones aren't going to be added as free DLC clones then I'd prefer to take them as alts than not at all.

 

[Nonno Umby]

I still don't get this mindset. I'd much rather have Lucina as an alt of Marth rather than being cut altogether. I mean, they're clones, so besides a few small changes they're pretty identical to their source characters anyway with legitimate reasons to be alts as they were planned for in the first place. Yes, it's not ideal and those clone mechanics will be missed sorta, but if they're running thin on time and the clones aren't going to be added as free DLC clones then I'd prefer to take them as alts than not at all.

While that might be the case for Dark Pit and arguably Lucina (the tipper mechanic changes several strategies), having Dr. Mario using fireballs and F.L.U.D.D. would just be wrong, especially after 2 games were he has an established moveset.

Most of the work spent on the clones is in creating their 3D model rather than the actual moveset (they are even balanced out with their clone rather than the whole roster), so keeping them as clones isn't that big of a chore in comparison of reverting them to alts.

 

[Staarih]

I feel like the clones are actually more likely to be cut altogether than be reverted to alts. We saw it happen with Dr. Mario, who got cut after Melee and while he was initially planned as a costume in Smash 4, he was separated because of unique qualities and to please Melee-fans familiar with him and his playstyle. Lucina and Dark Pit are in the same situation as Dr. Mario was in Melee - people are now accustomed to their playstyle (even if their differences are very minimal to their ”originals”) and adding them as costumes in a new game wouldn’t please their fans (Smash 4 fans). Or so Sakurai would assume I guess, looking at Dr. Mario. Of course principles/thoughts could change, especially if the director changes.

But yeah, I actually wouldn’t mind if they were cut and maybe returned as DLC with updated movesets (like Roy). Or if they stay put, that works too. And if they happen to go back to alts, so be it, I personally don’t see it happening anymore tho.

 

[Roberto zampari]

I have a question: since when Koopalings have clown cars?
I don't renember a Mario game having Koopalings in clown cars.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

He means that because Shadow is severely popular as his own person, making him into a costume would get way too much backlash, thus, a Director wouldn't take that route.

Anyway, Shadow has very little in common with Sonic in Smash as is. While Sonic's special moves(Final Smash included) wouldn't feel odd, as it's something Shadow can do, the A moves are another story. Shadow does not punch, he karate chops. He also uses spinning kicks more than just straight jab-like kicks. He could easily do the spinning moves like the Down Smash, sure, but it's not really Shadow's style. He doesn't nearly as much curl into a ball for dealing damage and prefers to physically attack or use his chaos powers. He wouldn't work as a costume because it's too out of character. There would be hitbox issues that would make it impossible. The character models are also somewhat different, though not so different in couldn't work in that particular case. But the moveset doesn't, and that's where the issues lie.

It should also be noted that Sonic doesn't have a single offensive projectile attack. Sure, his Spring can be treated as a projectile, but it's more of a recovery move.

Shadow, on the other hand, has his Chaos Spear for long-ranged assaults. There's also Chaos Control and Chaos Blast to keep in mind.

 

[Deleted member]

I still don't get this mindset. I'd much rather have Lucina as an alt of Marth rather than being cut altogether. I mean, they're clones, so besides a few small changes they're pretty identical to their source characters anyway with legitimate reasons to be alts as they were planned for in the first place. Yes, it's not ideal and those clone mechanics will be missed sorta, but if they're running thin on time and the clones aren't going to be added as free DLC clones then I'd prefer to take them as alts than not at all.

You need to look at things from a different perspective than just your own.
I'm absolutely sure there are people who like to play as Lucina for more than just the character itself. She's Marth for beginners, and if she were to become an alt, people would be stuck with a more complicated version of the character they liked to play as. Sure, their movesets are almost 100% identical, but like Sakurai said, every little difference matters.
Also, every cut hurts, but with DLC being a thing in Sm4sh any cut veteran could return out of nowhere.
If clones are demoted to alts, they straight up can't be DLC and I guarantee that people wouldn't like it.
This is where I come from. I can't believe I even need to explain this.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I have a question: since when Koopalings have clown cars?
I don't renember a Mario game having Koopalings in clown cars.

They do use Bowser's Koopa Clown Car in New Super Mario Bros. 2, but they never had their own personal Clown Cars.

 

[M@ri0]

I know its too early for an Actual Smash game to be announced but since there are rumors going around and Reggie apparently leaking it, I thought it would be fun to speculate with a bunch of people. Also what ddo you think it will be announced at? If its a port then for me its at E3 2017/18. If its an entirely a new game then E3 2019/20.
Here's my predictions:

I think that Link and Zelda will probably be in their BOTW forms. Notice how in Wii U they were in Twilight Princess form, which was the latest original Zelda game at that time. Now that BOTW is here, their costumes will probably change.
It's unlikely that Snake will return, though I do believe that Ice Climbers could return, because I'm sure the Switch can handle them.
I don't think any new Pokémon will be added, though I've heard speculation about taking Greninja out and replacing him with someone from the Gen 7 Pokémon games.
I totally agree that the Inklings, Spring Man, Shovel Knight, Isaac, and King K. Rool are very likely to be in the next game. Shovel Knight and K. Rool were high finishers on the Smash Ballot, and Isaac would just be amazing. The Inklings and Spring Man will most likely make an appearance because Nintendo has a habit of introducing new characters from franchises in the next Smash Bros (like Dark Pit, Rosalina, Robin, etc.).
I know there's a lot of debate over the DLC characters that were in Smash 4, but I enjoyed playing with ALL of them(not just Bayonetta and Cloud), and I would be quite sad to not see them return, although some of them might need a slight reworking.

Well, there's my predictions. Feel free to reply or disagree(respectfully).

 

[Deleted member]

I think that Link and Zelda will probably be in their BOTW forms. Notice how in Wii U they were in Twilight Princess form, which was the latest original Zelda game at that time. Now that BOTW is here, their costumes will probably change.
It's unlikely that Snake will return, though I do believe that Ice Climbers could return, because I'm sure the Switch can handle them.
I don't think any new Pokémon will be added, though I've heard speculation about taking Greninja out and replacing him with someone from the Gen 7 Pokémon games.
I totally agree that the Inklings, Spring Man, Shovel Knight, Isaac, and King K. Rool are very likely to be in the next game. Shovel Knight and K. Rool were high finishers on the Smash Ballot, and Isaac would just be amazing. The Inklings and Spring Man will most likely make an appearance because Nintendo has a habit of introducing new characters from franchises in the next Smash Bros (like Dark Pit, Rosalina, Robin, etc.).
I know there's a lot of debate over the DLC characters that were in Smash 4, but I enjoyed playing with ALL of them(not just Bayonetta and Cloud), and I would be quite sad to not see them return, although some of them might need a slight reworking.

You're replying to a post that's a couple of months old and your reply is in the quote box.
That aside, you seem to a bit of a newbie, aren't you? Not that it's a bad thing as we've all been there.

 

[Roberto zampari]

Wait, Reggie was leaking about smash bros for switch? Since when?

 

[Cosmic77]

I still don't get this mindset. I'd much rather have Lucina as an alt of Marth rather than being cut altogether. I mean, they're clones, so besides a few small changes they're pretty identical to their source characters anyway with legitimate reasons to be alts as they were planned for in the first place. Yes, it's not ideal and those clone mechanics will be missed sorta, but if they're running thin on time and the clones aren't going to be added as free DLC clones then I'd prefer to take them as alts than not at all.

While that might be the case for Dark Pit and arguably Lucina (the tipper mechanic changes several strategies), having Dr. Mario using fireballs and F.L.U.D.D. would just be wrong, especially after 2 games were he has an established moveset.

Most of the work spent on the clones is in creating their 3D model rather than the actual moveset (they are even balanced out with their clone rather than the whole roster), so keeping them as clones isn't that big of a chore in comparison of reverting them to alts.

If Sakurai is going to cut clones, I think it's definitely better to have them as alts instead of not having them at all. However, the only characters currently on the roster who this could work with without MAJOR backlash are Lucina and Dark Pit, as both clones are so similar to their base character that the chances of them getting cut and returning as paid DLC are incredibly slim. Seeing Dr. Mario (and possibly some a few semi-clones too) get cut in the next Smash would be sad, and although an alt would be much appreciated, it also ruins their chances of returning as DLC with their original moveset.

I don't particularly care for any of the true clones, and I'd be fine with any of them becoming an alt. However, I know some people feel differently and would rather get nothing than to see their clone be demoted to an alt of an existing character.

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, Reggie was leaking about smash bros for switch? Since when?

He briefly mentioned it after the Switch presentation from what I can recall. All we know is that it exists.

 

[Luminario]

You need to look at things from a different perspective than just your own.
I'm absolutely sure there are people who like to play as Lucina for more than just the character itself. She's Marth for beginners, and if she were to become an alt, people would be stuck with a more complicated version of the character they liked to play as. Sure, their movesets are almost 100% identical, but like Sakurai said, every little difference matters.
Also, every cut hurts, but with DLC being a thing in Sm4sh any cut veteran could return out of nowhere.
If clones are demoted to alts, they straight up can't be DLC and I guarantee that people wouldn't like it.
This is where I come from. I can't believe I even need to explain this.

In my defence, I'm a dumb *****.
For my hypothetical situation of no chance of DLC or cloning where the only choices are alts or cuts, I still say that at least Lucina and Dark Pit should be alts, but only in that situation. That was where I was coming from, since I didn't really consider the context of your post.

 

[Cosmic77]

You need to look at things from a different perspective than just your own.
I'm absolutely sure there are people who like to play as Lucina for more than just the character itself. She's Marth for beginners, and if she were to become an alt, people would be stuck with a more complicated version of the character they liked to play as. Sure, their movesets are almost 100% identical, but like Sakurai said, every little difference matters
Also, every cut hurts, but with DLC being a thing in Sm4sh any cut veteran could return out of nowhere.
If clones are demoted to alts, they straight up can't be DLC and I guarantee that people wouldn't like it.
This is where I come from. I can't believe I even need to explain this.

Thing is, Lucina and Dark Pit aren't exactly ideal characters for DLC (or at least not paid DLC). Newbies to Smash probably aren't going to respond very well to paying five bucks for a clone who functions very similar to an existing character on the roster. If Lucina and Dark Pit ever get cut, they shouldn't make their return through paid DLC. Receiving them for free through an update or just making them alts in the base game would be much more preferable IMO.

 

[Deleted member]

In my defence, I'm a dumb *****.

So am I.
Arguement invalid.

For my hypothetical situation of no chance of DLC or cloning where the only choices are alts or cuts, I still say that at least Lucina and Dark Pit should be alts, but only in that situation. That was where I was coming from, since I didn't really consider the context of your post.

That's fair enough. I really couldn't care less about the clones myself (In fact I actively dislike Dr. Mario), but I feel that demoting clones is really unfair towards the people who do care about them. I'd rather have them decloned than demoted.

Thing is, Lucina and Dark Pit aren't exactly ideal characters for DLC (or at least not paid DLC). Newbies to Smash probably aren't going to respond very well to paying five bucks for a clone who functions very similar to an existing character on the roster. If Lucina and Dark Pit get cut, they shouldn't make their return through paid DLC. Receiving them for free through an update would be preferable.

No **** they wouldn't. The situation I was describing was completely hypothetical.
Obviously no one would be happy if their favorite character got cut, but even the tiniest bit of hope is better than knowing that they straight up can't make it back.
Want an example? Look at Icies. Most of their fans reluctantly gave up on them during the DLC period.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Eggman > Knuckles >> Tails >>> Shadow


No it's not.
They were seperated because the team had time to seperate them (and also because Doc was a Melee vet, Lucina was extremely popular, and because Sakurai wanted to use the Electroshock Arm for something, but I digress). If they didn't have time they would've remained alts.

Wrong. This is the second time I've had to post this.

"There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch."

No quote of him saying "they would have remained alts if there was no time" exists. This is why the people who liked your post were already on my ignore list.

I still don't get this mindset. I'd much rather have Lucina as an alt of Marth rather than being cut altogether. I mean, they're clones, so besides a few small changes they're pretty identical to their source characters anyway with legitimate reasons to be alts as they were planned for in the first place. Yes, it's not ideal and those clone mechanics will be missed sorta, but if they're running thin on time and the clones aren't going to be added as free DLC clones then I'd prefer to take them as alts than not at all.

"I mean, THEY'RE CLONES."

Ugh...

 

[Deleted member]

Wrong. This is the second time I've had to post this.
"There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch."

No quote of him saying "they would have remained alts if there was no time" exists.

They were originally meant to be alts and were seperated near the end of the game's development.

You're right, there is no quote. It's just a logical assumption.

This is why the people who liked your post were already on my ignore list.

You're a real charmer, aren't you?
At some point you're probably not gonna get any notifications from this thread with how frequently you ignore people. I'm surprised I wasn't ignored yet.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It should also be noted that Sonic doesn't have a single offensive projectile attack. Sure, his Spring can be treated as a projectile, but it's more of a recovery move.

Shadow, on the other hand, has his Chaos Spear for long-ranged assaults. There's also Chaos Control and Chaos Blast to keep in mind.

Chaos Magic is also an option, and may work as a good alternate option for customs or otherwise.

Never mind Chaos Burst, a weaker version of Chaos Blast(and inspired the move's creation, of course).

 

[Deleted member]

About Sonic: Adding another character from a third party sounds weird to be honest. Shadow would indeed be a cool fighter to have, but I do not see it possible. Shadow has to be a clone of Sonic either way if he was added, or else Shadow would feel a little bit weird to play. If Shadow was added, I would give him his chaos moves and maybe he can slow people down like Bayonetta. ( The major salt would be real though ).

If I had to chose another Sonic character to add, it would be Tails.

 

[Roberto zampari]

If I had to chose another Sonic character to add, it would be Tails.

Agree with you, Tails is an inventor, build things, have an airplane to help Sonic.
It's different from Sonic...

...i mean, a semi-clone of Sonic, being his final Smash would be similar to Zero Suit Samus.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Wrong. This is the second time I've had to post this.

"There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch."

No quote of him saying "they would have remained alts if there was no time" exists. This is why the people who liked your post were already on my ignore list.

Again, and I DO think this is worth mentioning twice, the part of the quote that you bolded and underlined was talking about the characters getting their own spots on the roster, not being clones. Two different things.

It isn't far-fetched to say that the three clones could have been special alts for the characters that give them moveset changes.

That quote explains why they were given their own spots on the roster. NOT why they got the changes that led to them getting their own roster spots in the first place.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Again, and I DO think this is worth mentioning twice, the part of the quote that you bolded and underlined was talking about the characters getting their own spots on the roster, not being clones. Two different things.

It isn't far-fetched to say that the three clones could have been special alts for the characters that give them moveset changes.

That quote explains why they were given their own spots on the roster. NOT why they got the changes that led to them getting their own roster spots in the first place.

Actually, from what I understand, they couldn't get moveset changes and still be costumes due to being unable to actually record separate battle data for costumes themselves. So a separation was needed to do that. I don't remember where it was posted, though. @PushDustIn Got the article?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

They were originally meant to be alts and were seperated near the end of the game's development.

So you're gonna reword what you said instead of admitting you were wrong. Okay then.

 

[Deleted member]

So you're gonna reword what you said instead of admitting you were wrong. Okay then.

I was analyzing the circumstances.
And I'm not wrong.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I was analyzing the circumstances.
And I'm not wrong.

If they didn't have time they would've remained alts.

You have no citation for this statement and you admitted it was an assumption. He literally said that they INTENDED to be costumes, but were separated when he decided they played too differently, which means if they didn't have time to do so, they would NOT have been costumes.

So yeah. You're wrong. I'm not gonna keep going back and forth on this anymore.

 

[Deleted member]

You have no citation for this statement and you admitted it was an assumption. He literally said that they INTENDED to be costumes, but were separated when he decided they played too differently, which means if they didn't have time to do so, they would NOT have been costumes.

So yeah. You're wrong. I'm not gonna keep going back and forth on this anymore.

OBJECTION!
*cues music*

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/04/smashfacts1/

CLONES? So, what about clones you ask? Your Doctor Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit? Sakurai himself has said that these characters were not planned from the start of project… sort of. You see, they were initially planned as alternate costumes in the vein of Alph for Olimar and the Koopalings for Bowser Jr. You know, speaking of Alph there were recent findings showing that he could’ve been a potential clone character! However,somewhere down the line the developing Olimar it was scrapped or forgotten. There are even remnants of Rock Pikmin being included in the moveset. But, as you can see in the final release he remained an alternative costume. But back to the ones that made it in. Because they were added so late into development, and they vary ever so slightly, they were not balanced across all characters on the roster. Instead, Sakurai considers them as a little special extra. Actually, the way he describes it it’s pretty funny, it’s like going to a magnificent dinner at a restaurant, getting the best dinner, you’ve paid for and the chef comes and gives you desert for free! It’s like a lot of people on the internet that were mad at the clones go, “NO! I want more of the main course!”

No, I'm not wrong.
I'm not even an AA fan but I wanted an excuse to use this theme because its so damn good.

 

[Cosmic77]

About Sonic: Adding another character from a third party sounds weird to be honest. Shadow would indeed be a cool fighter to have, but I do not see it possible. Shadow has to be a clone of Sonic either way if he was added, or else Shadow would feel a little bit weird to play. If Shadow was added, I would give him his chaos moves and maybe he can slow people down like Bayonetta. ( The major salt would be real though ).

If I had to chose another Sonic character to add, it would be Tails.

A single third-party franchise getting multiple characters is something Sakurai has never commented on, so many of us aren't really sure how likely a character like Shadow is.

Personally, I'd prefer getting a second or third Sonic rep over a more niche third-party character.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Again, and I DO think this is worth mentioning twice, the part of the quote that you bolded and underlined was talking about the characters getting their own spots on the roster, not being clones. Two different things.

It isn't far-fetched to say that the three clones could have been special alts for the characters that give them moveset changes.

That quote explains why they were given their own spots on the roster. NOT why they got the changes that led to them getting their own roster spots in the first place.

This is actually a good point. By that Sakurai statement we can't really say when the 3 clone characters we have received their differences that lead them into being separated. We can only assume they were made near the end of the development, but at the same time we knew Lucina was a clone since mid July, 2 mounths before the 3DS game release in Japan, so she was decided as a clone at the very least a couple mounths earlier than that.

Thing is, Lucina and Dark Pit aren't exactly ideal characters for DLC (or at least not paid DLC). Newbies to Smash probably aren't going to respond very well to paying five bucks for a clone who functions very similar to an existing character on the roster. If Lucina and Dark Pit ever get cut, they shouldn't make their return through paid DLC. Receiving them for free through an update or just making them alts in the base game would be much more preferable IMO.

While I agree on Dark Pit, considering how Lucina is the 2nd most popular female character from Fire Emblem according to the "choose your legend" poll, a semi-clone Lucina DLC would sell a lot. It isn't that different from how Roy was treathed in Smash for.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

While that might be the case for Dark Pit and arguably Lucina (the tipper mechanic changes several strategies), having Dr. Mario using fireballs and F.L.U.D.D. would just be wrong, especially after 2 games were he has an established moveset.

Most of the work spent on the clones is in creating their 3D model rather than the actual moveset (they are even balanced out with their clone rather than the whole roster), so keeping them as clones isn't that big of a chore in comparison of reverting them to alts.

Two custom moves would solve that problem entirely, then?

 

[Nonno Umby]

Two custom moves would solve that problem entirely, then?

Dr. Mario doesn't have fire properties in his Smash attacks.

Besides you can't change Marth's tipper mechanic trough custom moves, so Lucina would become a problem too.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Why would anyone cut Lucina? She takes just about the least effort to recreate as a character, same with Dark Pit. For the amount of work they take, they're perfect extra characters with great popularity to back them up. I wouldn't cut either.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I hate padding the roster with clones. It's just a pet peeve.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate padding the roster with clones. It's just a pet peeve.

Insert text for the sake of text here.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

So Dark Matter passed the last poll with flying colors, fitting giving his blade. Everyone else mostly did subpar, but Susie did slightly better than Sectonia and Bonkers.

Got another Kirby poll ready, this one including a character from a game that will be out in a month from now. Your picks are Knuckle Joe, Marx, Francisca (the female ice mage you'll face in Star Allies), and Doroach from Squeak Squad.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Still sorting stuff out for those that live in European timezones...

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Why would anyone cut Lucina? She takes just about the least effort to recreate as a character, same with Dark Pit. For the amount of work they take, they're perfect extra characters with great popularity to back them up. I wouldn't cut either.

Really it all boils down to people not liking clones because they pad the roster. I personally like the roster getting bigger with the addition of clones, though I'm well aware there are others that don't.

 

[Krysco]

Given my consistent enjoyment of clones and 'clones'(actually, Roy is kinda hard to justify being a semi clone but whatever), I'm fine with them staying. If we only get a few that couldn't realistically detract from a potential extra fighter or so, I don't see the issue. Granted, I also want Toon Zelda in and I'd see her as a clone of Zelda and if Galacta Knight got in, I'd see him as an MK clone so I guess I'm just a bit of an oddball.

Obviously, fleshed out and unique characters are better to have but we've only had one Smash game without clones.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Why would anyone cut Lucina? She takes just about the least effort to recreate as a character, same with Dark Pit. For the amount of work they take, they're perfect extra characters with great popularity to back them up. I wouldn't cut either.

Because some people mistakenly believe that the 5 minutes they spent on making a clone could have been used on more testing and balancing, when it's unlikely that their absence would make a significant difference in that regard.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

OBJECTION!
*cues music*

https://sourcegaming.info/2015/08/04/smashfacts1/

No, I'm not wrong.
I'm not even an AA fan but I wanted an excuse to use this theme because its so damn good.

He said that they were originally costumes and that they were separated because of their differences.

Where's the part where he said they would have still been costumes if they ran out of time?

You literally forgot to prove your point.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Dr. Mario doesn't have fire properties in his Smash attacks.

Besides you can't change Marth's tipper mechanic trough custom moves, so Lucina would become a problem too.

I haven't played much Fire Emblem. Is there a canon reason Marth should have a tipper, but Lucina should not?