Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Krysco]

With the Belmont discussion, I'm seeing that recency issue again. Characters don't need to be in a recent game to get into Smash, not even 3rd party. Would Sonic not have gotten in if 06 and Secret Rings didn't come out? At work so I'm not gonna bother to check release dates but the same question goes for Snake, especially since at the time of Brawl, his most recent Nintendo specific appearance was the MGS1 remake on the Gamecube iirc. How old was FF VII at the time of Cloud getting in?

Simon may or may not get in, and he may have competition with other Konami characters since Nintendo may only want 1 Konami character added. But I really don't see how recency is an issue. As I've said before, Smash didn't get flooded with super recent characters until Sm4sh.

In regards to Kirby, if Sakurai made a new one and it got representation in the newest Smash, I doubt many would complain. The issue (for me at least) isn't who's Kirby content gets represented but rather the almost complete lack of representation of anything recent, meanwhile Mario gets Galaxy and NSMB, Zelda gets TP, SS, ST and ALBW, Pokemon gets gen 5 and 6, Metroid gets Other M, Starfox gets Assault, Sonic gets Lost World, Yoshi gets Woolly World, Fire Emblem gets Awakening and Fates and yet Kirby gets hardly anything past 1996 when Sm4sh came out in 2014.

 

[Cosmic77]

I guess with the Kirby thing, we can only agree to disagree. Based on a previous rant, what seems to bother some people the most is that those Kirby games where the content is derived from have Sakurai's name behind them. I just can't help but think of that gripe as a little silly because it is just arbitrary labeling; guess in the future people will start demanding Smash content to be categorized as "Miyamoto era", "Aonuma era", "Koizumi era", "Masuda era", etc. because suddenly we decided to care a little too much.

People aren't upset by the abundance of Kirby content with Sakurai's involvement, but rather by the glaring lack of Kirby content from games following his departure from the series. I think it's only natural for Sakurai to favor his own games, but can't he show a little more effort in promoting the modern Kirby? Even when we exclude stages, the newer games aren't getting the same treatment. Only 4 tracks were taken from Return to Dreamland and Triple Deluxe, and all four were direct ports. Poor Epic Yarn didn't get any tracks or trophies at all. Meanwhile, Ice Cream Island from the NES game Kirby's Adventure randomly gets a full remix, and Green Greens and Butter Building get a SECOND remix.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I'm just gonna say what I said in the Snake thread: Having history with Nintendo means nothing if a 3rd party franchise doesn't have a recent game on a Nintendo system.

Citation needed.

Do you think Pac-Man wouldn't have been in Super Smash Bros. if he was absent the last 10 years? He was added because of his arcade games. Which are literally the only Pac-Man games ever referenced in the game.

Firstly, I only made that assumption because of the way you waved off mine and Xeno's questions without even acknowledging what we said.

I actually acknowledged it directly when I told you that you were wrong.

That wasn't my argument to begin with. I was going to make the point that one character with relevancy and history is more likely than one with just either of those and not both.

You're wrong. It's as simple as that. What you said was just untrue and unsupported. It's just as untrue as if you said a character had to be relevant on a Nintendo console or there can't be two from one company. You're just arguing from incredulity. And people already pointed out how Mega Man and Pac-Man's appearances are based ENTIRELY on their NES/SNES & Arcade games. There's not a single reference to any recent Pac-Man games in Super Smash Bros.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Citation needed.

Do you think Pac-Man wouldn't have been in Super Smash Bros. if he was absent the last 10 years? He was added because of his arcade games. Which are literally the only Pac-Man games ever referenced in the game.

Not 100% true; PAC-MAN's design in Smash originates from PAC-MAN WORLD for the PlayStation. A few of his alts also reference PAC-LAND.

While the majority of his stuff can be linked to his early arcade days, saying that's the only thing he references is false.

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Not 100% true; PAC-MAN's design in Smash originates from PAC-MAN WORLD for the PlayStation.

While the majority of his references are linked to his early arcade days, saying that's the only thing he pays homage to is false.

No? Pac-Man's design is taken from Pac-Land (1984) minus the hat, something Sakurai has even noted.

Orange gloves, red boots, etc. The eyebrows would probably be there too if it wasn't for the hat.

On another note, why was the hat not part of his color options? Namco allowed them to use the wing shoes but not the hat? Strange.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

No? Pac-Man's design is taken from Pac-Land (1984) minus the hat, something Sakurai has even noted.

Orange gloves, red boots, etc. The eyebrows would probably be there too if it wasn't for the hat.

On another note, why was the hat not part of his color options? Namco allowed them to use the wing shoes but not the hat? Strange.

I'll concede to that.

Though further research shows that his Power Pellet side special was something he was able to do in the PAC-MAN WORLD games (albeit changed in Smash to give it a more arcade-esque motif), so my point still stands.

As for the hat, we don't really have a reason why. Both PAC-MAN and Sonic seemed to have pretty lousy alts for whatever reason.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Not 100% true; PAC-MAN's design in Smash originates from PAC-MAN WORLD for the PlayStation. A few of his alts also reference PAC-LAND.

While the majority of his stuff can be linked to his early arcade days, saying that's the only thing he references is false.

Pac-Land is an arcade game. His design in Pac-Man World is exactly the same as his japanese arcade design.

Notice how I said RECENT games. So no. It's not false. But, of course posts with facts don't get likes.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Notice how I said RECENT games.

You're wrong. It's as simple as that. What you said was just untrue and unsupported. It's just as untrue as if you said a character had to be relevant on a Nintendo console or there can't be two from one company. You're just arguing from incredulity. And people already pointed out how Mega Man and Pac-Man's appearances are based ENTIRELY on their NES/SNES & Arcade games. There's not a single reference to any recent Pac-Man games in Super Smash Bros.

I assume this is the part of the post you were talking about?

To be absolutely fair you edited that part into your post after I posted mine, so no, I couldn't notice.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'd actually argue that Pac-Man was intended to represent Namco arcade games as a whole and not just his own series. I mean, his own moveset takes inspiration from other games like Galaga and Mappy, not to mention the various sprites used in his taunts, Smash Run enemies, and the arcade items. If Pac-Man puts a heavy emphasis on arcade games besides his own, I can see why newer games may have been excluded.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I said the other day that my view of Andross is the same as my view of Ridley, that he wouldn't be Andross anymore. I also don't believe characters should be added for the sake of being villains.

But, I believe you should ALWAYS put a character on paper before dismissing them.

One point that should be made is that you'll notice Andross does not have arms in his humanoid form. I believe he could still enlarge his hands or possibly use bigger hologram versions of them with his pseudo science scepter to grab opponents.

When Andross summons his powers, his scepter glows. Possibilities include the ability to shoot lasers from his finger or summon laser rings.

Another unique feature is his true form being revealed after excessive damage or at his own sacrifice for greater power or more mobility

Another unique ability is his cube form. This can work as a stage entrance and possibly as a down special as a shield to protect him or a recovery to get around better.

And of course he has a variety of abilities, so you could probably take it from there.

 

[Deleted member]

Citation needed.

Do you think Pac-Man wouldn't have been in Super Smash Bros. if he was absent the last 10 years? He was added because of his arcade games. Which are literally the only Pac-Man games ever referenced in the game.

Just an educated assumption is all.
That said, I feel like Pac-Man's status as THE most iconic video game character, as well as Bandai Namco's involvement in the game, were more than enough for him to get in.
I didn't say it was the only thing that mattered when it comes to 3rd parties. Of course it doesn't.
But history with Nintendo alone isn't enough for a character to get in.

 

[Nonno Umby]

Just an educated assumption is all.
That said, I feel like Pac-Man's status as THE most iconic video game character, as well as Bandai Namco's involvement in the game, were more than enough for him to get in.
I didn't say it was the only thing that mattered when it comes to 3rd parties. Of course it doesn't.
But history with Nintendo alone isn't enough for a character to get in.

Well what about Mega Man and Ryu? Can we really count games like Mega Man 10 and that Street Fighter IV port for the 3DS as recent when they were chosen to be added?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well what about Mega Man and Ryu? Can we really count games like Mega Man 10 and that Street Fighter IV port for the 3DS as recent when they were chosen to be added?

Yes, we can.

However, I very much doubt those recent games were the reason they got in Smash. Especially Ryu.

 

[Deleted member]

After Smash 4, I don't feel like it's worth throwing in reasons why certain third-parties from the same company are more likely than others. No one on this site even came close to guessing Ryu, Cloud, and Bayo would be the most likely third-party candidates from Capcom, Square Enix, and Sega respectively, so clearly we're nowhere close to breaking down this science of "'X' character is more likely than 'Y' character".

Simon could make it over Bomberman or vice-versa, and none of us would ever be able to explain why.

I’ll concede on Cloud but quite a few people guessed Bayonetta as the second Sega character.

Also most people didn’t guess Ryu because most people expected Mega Man if we got a Capcom character which we did. Ryu came as DLC, three years after they decided on Mega Man.

Speaking of Ryu I hope we get better Street Fighter representation next game. Same with Final Fantasy.

 

[Deleted member]

Well what about Mega Man and Ryu? Can we really count games like Mega Man 10 and that Street Fighter IV port for the 3DS as recent when they were chosen to be added?

Mega Man had fan demand going for him.
For Ryu... Well Sakurai likes Street Fighter I guess.
My educated guess is pretty flawed I'll admit.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

For Ryu... Well Sakurai likes Street Fighter I guess.

Ryu has the iconic factor going for him.

 

[Deleted member]

Ryu has the iconic factor going for him.

I thought that part spoke for itself.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

As for third-parties in Smash, it's ultimately who the developers want in, with or without Sakurai at the wheel.

As for interesting picks, we got some third-party options left (regardless of likelihood of said characters in franchises).

Castlevania has the Belmonts Simon, Trevor, Richter, and if pushing it, Julius. The non-Belmonts are Alucard and Soma Cruz. Castlevania has a decent history with games and is a part of the term "Metroid-vania" genre of games. Especially with games like Symphony of the Night.

Bomberman is a very Nintendo friendly franchise and is well demanded for in Smash as far as I know. The White Bomber, commonly referred to as Bomberman, is a bomb slinging character who seems like a natural fit within the Smash cast.

Of course, stealth gaming icon Solid Snake could make a return.

SNK has been in and out of the spotlight in games, but a good streak has been happening with classic re-releases and Geese Howard in Tekken 7. King of Fighters (and by extension the universes the franchise combined) is the biggest franchise. From this company, we could get Terry Bogard, Kyo Kusanagi, Mai Shiranui, and maybe Geese Howard.

Tekken is a very popular 3D fighter and it is still going strong with Tekken 7 as the latest entry. Heihachi Mishima is still a possibility as he was considered for Smash for Wii U/3DS, but we also have Jin Kazama and Kazuya Mishima for the Tekken character of choice.

The "Tales of" franchise has some options. I can only name Lloyd Irving since I neither played nor have much knowledge on the series as a whole.

Id Software could contribute Doom or Wolfenstein since these games are history making FPS shooter franchises. They could potentially be tied together as the franchises have crossed over in Doom 2.

Ubisoft has Rayman and Assassin's Creed. Rayman and the Rabbids are easy choices from Ubisoft, but Ezio Auditore from Assassin's Creed could show up.

Koei Tecmo's Ninja Gaiden could show up. It went from a difficult platformer to a difficult hack and slash franchise and is popular enough. Ryu Hayabusa is the easy pick from Ninja Gaiden. Plus, Koei Tecmo has made Warrior style games of Zelda and Fire Emblem games.

Atlus, a Sega subsidiary, could present itself with Shin Megami Tensei and its spin-off Persona.

Capcom has Ace Attorney with Phoenix Wright.

There's more, but I think I'll stop listing them for now.

Speaking of Ryu I hope we get better Street Fighter representation next game. Same with Final Fantasy.

That statement is one that I can agree with any day. Street Fighter has crap tons of stuff that can be pulled from. Final Fantasy has a multiverse of stuff, too much to list here.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Ryu has the iconic factor going for him.

I thought that part spoke for itself.

Obviously it didn't because you said that doesn't matter unless they were on a Nintendo console recently. What was the last game Simon was in again? Castlevania Judgement for Wii I believe? I mean do you have a specific amount of years in mind, cuz otherwise the whole "recency" thing is very unclear and flimsy.

I always thought Super Smash Bros was just about what characters would be a draw. Ever since Melee, the very specific list of criteria that a character needs to fill has constantly been broken. Simon Belmont is a well known character from an extremely popular game, from an extremely popular series, of which most of the best games are on NES/SNES. He's not as popular as Mega Man, but he's in that league with him in terms of NES third parties.

That's why I brought him up as one of the more likely additions. The whole recency thing is just some arbitrary bull **** that doesn't really matter unless you're talking about a character nobody's even heard of.

 

[Deleted member]

Obviously it didn't because you said that doesn't matter unless they were on a Nintendo console recently. What was the last game Simon was in again? Castlevania Judgement for Wii I believe? I mean do you have a specific amount of years in mind, cuz otherwise the whole "recency" thing is very unclear and flimsy.

No I didn't.
I said HISTORY WITH NINTENDO doesn't matter unless they had a recent game.
Ryu is universally iconic, not just to Nintendo. He's the fighting game character.
Simon is barely on Mega Man's level, isn't as highly demanded, has LOADS of competition AND his series hasn't had a game in a while, let alone on a Nintendo system.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

So what about my Andross character concept?

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I don't want Andross in Smash, so I skipped it.

 

[Bowserlick]

Here is my concept of Andross designed during Sm4sh speculation.
His high-tech gloves allow him to hover, accelerate strikes and crush his foes.​

 

[Diddy Kong]

How did Andross talk suddenly get so big? I literally heard of this idea only twice, it's not a widespread suggestion. Also, adding villains because they are villains are a bad idea.

Now bring me King K.Rool.

 

[Deleted member]

How did Andross talk suddenly get so big? I literally heard of this idea only twice, it's not a widespread suggestion. Also, adding villains because they are villains are a bad idea.

Now bring me King K.Rool.

Andross has abilities that set him apart from the rest of the cast. I'm not a supporter of him by any mean but dismissing him as a "villain for the sake of villains" despite the villain arguement not being brought up at all is stupid.

 

[Bowserlick]

Star Fox and Fire Emblem are two series that were a bit redundant in Smash concerning their characters. Both Falco and Wolf's specials are based on Fox's specials. Fire Emblem fighters had similar moves to an extent and of course a counter across characters until Robin showed up.

Robin showcased an aspect of Fire Emblem games that were absent in Smash. Robin has a weapon system and magic. The same should be done with the StarFox series. I believe that Andross is the character to add diversity to the franchise in the next Smash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So what about my Andross character concept?

It's rather sketchy, since the only time you'll see Andross's whole body is in Star Fox Zero's Sound Test menu. He may make the cut as an Assist Trophy or Adventure mode boss, but playable representation probably isn't too likely.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

It's rather sketchy, since the only time you'll see Andross's whole body is in Star Fox Zero's Sound Test menu. He may make the cut as an Assist Trophy or Adventure mode boss, but playable representation probably isn't too likely.

I agree. For the most part.

There are some other points where you partially see his humanoid form, but it's not much better.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then what are his abilities? Shooting lasers out of his hands? Spewing meteors?

I don't think StarFox as a franchise is relevant to Nintendo enough to warrant more than Wolf. And I'd argue they would go for Slippy Toad as a 4th character, seeing how he's been breaking 4th walls since Melee.

But hey, what do I know? I predicted Impa replacing Sheik for Smash 4.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Then what are his abilities? Shooting lasers out of his hands? Spewing meteors?

He can

• Magnetically pull you towards him with a laser from his palms
• Encase himself in a dimensional cube
• Shoot lasers from his fingers/eyes
• Emit a ghostly power in the form of himself or his hands
• Use telekinesis/panels which can build things
• Shed his true from and become metallic
• Use a magic scepter

 

[Bowserlick]

Duck Hunt is an example of a character being created out of elements in the game. The playable character in Duck Hunt is the hunter. Not the dog, not the ducks. A composite fighter was created for Smash.

Bipedal Andross can serve as a slice of the experience from the series. He represents the enemies and bosses that you aim your gun at. His Final Smash is his Giant Head version. But as a fighter, he is the powerful adversary that controls space and matter. His moves would consist of utilizing his giant metal hands and sharp mind to be a physical and strategic threat. I can imagine him walking on flat metallic rectangles that whirl from the background, creating a ceiling that can impede recovering fighters. Rotating grids and black holes can serve as a way to gain the upper hand against the Fox/Falco team.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Star Fox and Fire Emblem are two series that were a bit redundant in Smash concerning their characters. Both Falco and Wolf's specials are based on Fox's specials. Fire Emblem fighters had similar moves to an extent and of course a counter across characters until Robin showed up.

Robin showcased an aspect of Fire Emblem games that were absent in Smash. Robin has a weapon system and magic. The same should be done with the StarFox series. I believe that Andross is the character to add diversity to the franchise in the next Smash.

Check out Project M Wolf.

 

[Bowserlick]

Check out Project M Wolf.

Looks like his specials are still based off Fox's specials. Doesn't refute my point.

I would like a character that breaks Smash tradition of the franchise as Robin did for FE.

 

[Opossum]

Looks like his specials are still based off Fox's specials. Doesn't refute my point.

I would like a character that breaks Smash tradition of the franchise as Robin did for FE.

Seriously though...what do Marth and Ike even share beyond their Counter?

Unless you go for something as vague as "chargeable neutral special," they're completely different.

 

[Lukingordex]

tbh i believe Star Fox at best can receive Wolf back. I don't think it's likely for any other character from the series to get in

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Just watch Switch play Wolf in PM. It's badass.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Star Fox and Fire Emblem are two series that were a bit redundant in Smash concerning their characters. Both Falco and Wolf's specials are based on Fox's specials. Fire Emblem fighters had similar moves to an extent and of course a counter across characters until Robin showed up.

Robin showcased an aspect of Fire Emblem games that were absent in Smash. Robin has a weapon system and magic. The same should be done with the StarFox series. I believe that Andross is the character to add diversity to the franchise in the next Smash.

I like the idea of using black holes and other space/sci-fi stuff. Andross is like a cosmic/bio God.

 

[Bowserlick]

Seriously though...what do Marth and Ike even share beyond their Counter?

Unless you go for something as vague as "chargeable neutral special," they're completely different.

Fire Emblem introduced Marth and a cloned version of him, Roy, to Smash. Marth relies on the tip of his sword, while Roy the base to deal out the most effective hits.

Ike is different than Marth and Roy. But there are similarities in the specials. A formula for Fire Emblem warriors. B is a charged hit of the sword, Down B is a counter, Up B is straight up with a sword and side B is a sword attack to the side. Part of this related to the Smash formula overall: side B attacks to the side and up B attacks upwards as a recovery.

Robin changed the pattern and introduced a weapon mechanic. B is a projectile that changes attributes with a charge. Down B steals life. Up B is a projectile propulsion move and Side B is a fire pillar trap. I want to see the formula broken in the Starfox franchise, taking a page from FE.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Fire Emblem introduced Marth and a cloned version of him, Roy, to Smash. Marth relies on the tip of his sword, while Roy the base to deal out the most effective hits.

Ike is different than Marth and Roy. But there are similarities in the specials. A formula for Fire Emblem warriors. B is a charged hit of the sword, Down B is a counter, Up B is straight up with a sword and side B is a sword attack to the side. Part of this related to the Smash formula overall: side B attacks to the side and up B attacks upwards as a recovery.

Robin changed the pattern and introduced a weapon mechanic. B is a projectile that changes attributes with a charge. Down B steals life. Up B is a projectile propulsion move and Side B is a fire pillar trap. I want to see the formula broken in the Starfox franchise, taking a page from FE.

It all depends on if the series has any characters worth adding.

 

[Opossum]

Fire Emblem introduced Marth and a cloned version of him, Roy, to Smash. Marth relies on the tip of his sword, while Roy the base to deal out the most effective hits.

Ike is different than Marth and Roy. But there are similarities in the specials. A formula for Fire Emblem warriors. B is a charged hit of the sword, Down B is a counter, Up B is straight up with a sword and side B is a sword attack to the side. Part of this related to the Smash formula overall: side B attacks to the side and up B attacks upwards as a recovery.

Robin changed the pattern and introduced a weapon mechanic. B is a projectile that changes attributes with a charge. Down B steals life. Up B is a projectile propulsion move and Side B is a fire pillar trap. I want to see the formula broken in the Starfox franchise, taking a page from FE.

I think you're really reaching on the Ike comparisons. Especially since Dancing Blade couldn't be further away from Quick Draw. The former is a speedy combo attack that offers mixup potential due to the different sub-attacks Marth can perform during it, while Quick Draw is a chargeable horizontal recovery move and a burst attack for a normally slow and bulky fighter.
And that's not even getting into the fact that Ike's Aether animation comes directly from Path of Radiance.

It seriously looks like you're reaching in an attempt to support your own argument, which is especially true if you consider "both of their neutral specials are chargeable" to be a valid comparison.