Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[TheLastJinjo]

I don't understand the obsession over having more "modern" Kirby representation. Kirby is Kirby regardless of the era, it is not like there is a quota that has to be met to bring in content from specific points in time, and this is a series that departs very little from its original formula which is why it works.
Most of current Kirby games are good because they derive heavily from Super Star, which is considered by many the definitive Kirby game. Even the title Returns to Dreamland is self explanatory in this regard, since most of the game is set on the same planet as in previous Kirby games and it plays like a spiritual successor to Super Star.

What annoys me the most is when people use this as "proof" that Sakurai hates Kirby games that he didn't work on. The guy left Hal in good terms and I believed he said something about leaving the franchise in good hands. You can clearly see that the respect is mutual because Hal borrows elements from Smash and makes the games to the standard that was established with Super Star, which was Sakurai's best Kirby game. But suddenly you do slightly less than what's unreasonably expected from you by some people and you are then labeled a hater?
And this is dangerously accurate to reality, as I saw one guy saying that Christian Whitehead hates Knuckles because he didn't make him as good as Sonic in Sonic Mania. I am not saying this is reflective of anyone here, but I don't see the need to hairsplit in regards to Kirby content when it has been represented fairly well in the last couple of Smash games. It's just a case of greediness.

Thank you. Thank you SO much.

 

[Krysco]

In regards to edgehogging, I really hope they either bring it back or nerf recoveries hard. Air speeds, fall speeds, air dodges and recoveries are too generous overall in Sm4sh. I'm also not a fan of how ledge trumping isn't guaranteed since roll, attack and jump can be buffered. A common issue with edgeguarding in this game is the opponent will air dodge to avoid a potential fair or bair and if you read it, they can tech the stage and still make it back. Dairs overall are too unreliable to use for reading air dodges.

As for the Kirby issue, imagine if Mario focused on just representing SMB1 and Mario 64 or if Zelda focused on just OoT or Pokemon on just gen 1. That's the issue with Kirby representation in Smash. No stages based on RtDl or TD or SqSq or AM, just some songs and trophies.

 

[Chandeelure]

Isn't Kirby the only franchise that doesn't get stages from newer games?
Not including retros and third parties for obvious reasons.

Nothing is a necessity, but it would be fine if we get certain things.

It's like when people say K. Rool or a Bowser's Castle stage are a necessity, they aren't because the games will still do fine without them, but it would be cool... really cool.

 

[Deleted member]

If Smash is an advertisement for Nintendo's games then how come the new Kirby games don't get any promotion?

 

[Opossum]

I don't understand the obsession over having more "modern" Kirby representation. Kirby is Kirby regardless of the era, it is not like there is a quota that has to be met to bring in content from specific points in time, and this is a series that departs very little from its original formula which is why it works.
Most of current Kirby games are good because they derive heavily from Super Star, which is considered by many the definitive Kirby game. Even the title Returns to Dreamland is self explanatory in this regard, since most of the game is set on the same planet as in previous Kirby games and it plays like a spiritual successor to Super Star.

What annoys me the most is when people use this as "proof" that Sakurai hates Kirby games that he didn't work on. The guy left Hal in good terms and I believed he said something about leaving the franchise in good hands. You can clearly see that the respect is mutual because Hal borrows elements from Smash and makes the games to the standard that was established with Super Star, which was Sakurai's best Kirby game. But suddenly you do slightly less than what's unreasonably expected from you by some people and you are then labeled a hater?
And this is dangerously accurate to reality, as I saw one guy saying that Christian Whitehead hates Knuckles because he didn't make him as good as Sonic in Sonic Mania. I am not saying this is reflective of anyone here, but I don't see the need to hairsplit in regards to Kirby content when it has been represented fairly well in the last couple of Smash games. It's just a case of greediness.

The issue comes from the fact that out of all the franchises in Smash that had new games between Brawl and Smash 4, Kirby is pretty much the only one who didn't get its major content from the newer titles, and man does it show.

Seriously, the only things in Smash 4 from the modern Kirby titles are a handful of directly ported songs, a number of trophies that you can count on one hand (and no Bandana Dee, for that matter!), and Kirby's new Final Smash. Meanwhile all the new Kirby stages come from early Sakurai-era Kirby titles and the 3DS version doesn't even HAVE trophies or songs from the newer games.

Yeah, we were gonna get an Epic Yarn stage, but Sakurai instead opted to represent a title that wouldn't even be out by the time Smash was to use the yarn aesthetic instead. That speaks numbers to me.

 

[Bowserlick]

ROSTER PREDICTION​

Newcomers: King K. Rool • Dixie Kong • Toad • Rex & Pyra • Decidueye or Gen. 8 Grass Starter • Inkling • Springman • Mallo from Pushmo • Mach Rider • Andross • Breath of the Wild Link • Bomberman • Geno

1. King K. Rool: The kremlin king can switch costumes (king, pirate, baron) and special abilities with Down B. Each persona also changes one Smash move.

2. Dixie Kong: Dixie Kong can slow her descent and increase her aerial horizontal movement by whirling her hair by holding the jump button similar to Peach's hovering ability.

3. Toad: Toad is the Mushroom Kingdom's first speed character. He is fast, light and has small toad-like hops. In order to deal with aerial opponents, Toad has many Mariokart themed specials that act as anti-aerial moves and recovery options.

4. Rex & Pyra: Rex is the main fighter. His team partner Pyra stands on the Z-Axis. Pyra cannot be hit or thrown off the stage. She is slower than Rex, but follows him. She can perform one jump and jumps when he does, but cannot jump off the stage. She attacks towards the screen when Rex performs certain moves. Her attacks can hit dodging or rolling characters. Rex can throw opponents toward Pyra for combo attacks. (Possible unlock: Mythra - She has different stats/abilities than Pyra. Once you select Rex, there are two characters behind him on the select screen. One is a silhouette and the other filled in. You can go back and forth between Pyra and Mythra and select one)

5. Decidueye or Grass Starter: The pokemon newcomer could charge all aerial attacks.

6. Inkling

7. Springman: Springman can press A after most attacks to attack again with his other arm. At the character select screen, three elemental ARMS can be chosen. One for each hand. You can pick the same ARM.

8. Mallo from Pushmo: Mallo is a sumo-wrestler. He can summon and push blocks (and push players) to control the ring.

9. Mach Rider: Mach Rider is a warrior from a post-apocalyptic world. Mach Rider wears fragmented armor on their body and can contort limbs to form a vehicle/s.

10. Andross: Andross, the villain from StarFox, appears with his body before he defied natural law and morphed into a planet-sized head. Andross is a scientist that experiments with space and quantum physics. He can generate grids that can form into metallic rectangles. He wears two giant armored gloves complete with rocket boosters for fueled up punches.

11. Breath of the Wild Link: BotW Link starts with a Moblin Club. After enough successful hits, his club shatters and he fights with an improved weapon. Magnesis allows him to wrangle an underground treasure chest back and forth. This is an attack that pops enemies up with the mound of earth rolls under them, but it also fishes out a chest that breaks and reveals an enchanted sword. This is Link's best weapon if he can retrieve it. Weapons reset w/ lost stock. Link can mount the Lord of the Mountain as a recovery (and fire off arrows while doing so) and also use his side special, stamina wheel, to run faster, scale walls, and paraglide.

12. Bomberman: Bomberman uses a variety of bombs to solve his problems. Down B plucks out a large bomb he can log-roll on. He can also jump off and climb back on board. Enough damage to the giant bomb results in a giant explosion.

13. Geno: Geno from Mario RPG finally enters the fray.

• Mii Fighters are reworked. All Mii fighters have a standard moveset. Specials can be changed by picking different arms, legs, bodies and miscellaneous gear. Certain sets can be introduced like: Pokemon Trainer and Labo Suit.

- Cut characters: Roy, Lucas, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, Cloud, Bayonetta
- Returning characters: Ice Climbers
- Dark Pit and Lucina are costumes.

Tag-team moves are introduced. Custom moves only exists for Mii's. Shield tiers for blocking exist to balance fighters further. Cut characters have a chance to return as DL.

- Scorpion, Rayman, and Belmont are possible DL 3rd-party characters.
- Ribbon Girl is a possible DLC. FE rep is a possible DL character.
* This roster is a prediction roster soaked in personal bias.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

What is everyone's opinion on edge-hogging? Was it the right choice to end it in smash 4, should it return to how it was in previous games or should it return but nerfed like it only happens when you have invincibility on the ledge?

Edge-hogging removal does make off-stage assaults less risky, since even if you mess up, your opponent can't keep you from grabbing a ledge without trying to do a footstool. And of course, some fighters become even worse to use if edge-hogging exists.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

ROSTER PREDICTION​

Newcomers: King K. Rool • Dixie Kong • Toad • Rex & Pyra • Decidueye or Gen. 8 Grass Starter • Inkling • Springman • Mallo from Pushmo • Mach Rider • Andross • Breath of the Wild Link • Bomberman • Geno

1. King K. Rool: The kremlin king can switch costumes (king, pirate, baron) and special abilities with Down B. Each persona also changes one Smash move.

2. Dixie Kong: Dixie Kong can slow her descent and increase her aerial horizontal movement by whirling her hair by holding the jump button similar to Peach's hovering ability.

3. Toad: Toad is the Mushroom Kingdom's first speed character. He is fast, light and has small toad-like hops. In order to deal with aerial opponents, Toad has many Mariokart themed specials that act as anti-aerial moves and recovery options.

4. Rex & Pyra: Rex is the main fighter. His team partner Pyra stands on the Z-Axis. Pyra cannot be hit or thrown off the stage. She is slower than Rex, but follows him. She can perform one jump and jumps when he does, but cannot jump off the stage. She attacks towards the screen when Rex performs certain moves. Her attacks can hit dodging or rolling characters. Rex can throw opponents toward Pyra for combo attacks. (Possible unlock: Mythra - She has different stats/abilities than Pyra. Once you select Rex, there are two characters behind him on the select screen. One is a silhouette and the other filled in. You can go back and forth between Pyra and Mythra and select one)

5. Decidueye or Grass Starter: The pokemon newcomer could charge all aerial attacks.

6. Inkling

7. Springman: Springman can press A after most attacks to attack again with his other arm. At the character select screen, three elemental ARMS can be chosen. One for each hand. You can pick the same ARM.

8. Mallo from Pushmo: Mallo is a sumo-wrestler. He can summon and push blocks (and push players) to control the ring.

9. Mach Rider: Mach Rider is a warrior from a post-apocalyptic world. Mach Rider wears fragmented armor on their body and can contort limbs to form a vehicle/s.

10. Andross: Andross, the villain from StarFox, appears with his body before he defied natural law and morphed into a planet-sized head. Andross is a scientist that experiments with space and quantum physics. He can generate grids that can form into metallic rectangles. He wears two giant armored gloves complete with rocket boosters for fueled up punches.

11. Breath of the Wild Link: BotW Link starts with a Moblin Club. After enough successful hits, his club shatters and he fights with an improved weapon. Magnesis allows him to wrangle an underground treasure chest back and forth. This is an attack that pops enemies up with the mound of earth rolls under them, but it also fishes out a chest that breaks and reveals an enchanted sword. This is Link's best weapon if he can retrieve it. Weapons reset w/ lost stock. Link can mount the Lord of the Mountain as a recovery (and fire off arrows while doing so) and also use his side special, stamina wheel, to run faster, scale walls, and paraglide.

12. Bomberman: Bomberman uses a variety of bombs to solve his problems. Down B plucks out a large bomb he can log-roll on. He can also jump off and climb back on board. Enough damage to the giant bomb results in a giant explosion.

13. Geno: Geno from Mario RPG finally enters the fray.

• Mii Fighters are reworked. All Mii fighters have a standard moveset. Specials can be changed by picking different arms, legs, bodies and miscellaneous gear. Certain sets can be introduced like: Pokemon Trainer and Labo Suit.

- Cut characters: Roy, Lucas, Dr. Mario, Toon Link, Cloud, Bayonetta
- Returning characters: Ice Climbers
- Dark Pit and Lucina are costumes.

Tag-team moves are introduced. Custom moves only exists for Mii's. Shield tiers for blocking exist to balance fighters further. Cut characters have a chance to return as DL.

- Scorpion, Rayman, and Belmont are possible DL 3rd-party characters.
- Ribbon Girl is a possible DLC. FE rep is a possible DL character.
* This roster is a prediction roster soaked in personal bias.

I thought about putting Andross on mine. But, if Andross was in his humanoid form it wouldn't be the Andross that fans know and love. So I think that would entirely defeat the purpose of having him. But, it's an interesting thought.

On the other hand, this roster is kind of offensive because you're removing characters for no other reason than that you don't like them or have some weird prejudice against "clones".

The worst thing you can do after removing those characters like Dark Pit & Lucina, is make them costumes. It's insulting to their fans and undoable because of their differences. These are the reasons they are separate characters to begin with.

But, your roster still has some positive additions. I can still respect Andross's addition and of course Bomberman is a great fit.

 

[Bowserlick]

I thought about putting Andross on mine. But, if Andross was in his humanoid form it wouldn't be the Andross that fans know and love. So I think that would entirely defeat the purpose of having him.

Andross can become his 'Boss Form' for a Final Smash. Tight garb and giant metallic gloves with thrusters would put the emphasis on humanoid Andross's hands and head, reminiscent of his StarFox battle. The grids and blocks can become special attacks.

 

[Cosmic77]

The issue comes from the fact that out of all the franchises in Smash that had new games between Brawl and Smash 4, Kirby is pretty much the only one who didn't get its major content from the newer titles, and man does it show.

Seriously, the only things in Smash 4 from the modern Kirby titles are a handful of directly ported songs, a number of trophies that you can count on one hand (and no Bandana Dee, for that matter!), and Kirby's new Final Smash. Meanwhile all the new Kirby stages come from early Sakurai-era Kirby titles and the 3DS version doesn't even HAVE trophies or songs from the newer games.

Yeah, we were gonna get an Epic Yarn stage, but Sakurai instead opted to represent a title that wouldn't even be out by the time Smash was to use the yarn aesthetic instead. That speaks numbers to me.

Yeah, the way Kirby was handled in Smash 4 was a bit confusing. I can understand why Sakurai may have not wanted to include Epic Yarn over Yoshi's Woolly World, but couldn't he at least add some music or trophies from the game? Did not getting a Epic Yarn stage mean that all other representation for the game was doomed? Then there's the matter of the 3DS randomly getting a Gameboy stage from the first Kirby game. Yeah, Triple Deluxe was probably released too late for it to receive a stage, but wouldn't it make more sense to give the Kirby franchise a ton of trophies from that game instead of ones from older games that were released on consoles?

We don't have solid proof that Sakurai avoids modern Kirby, but there's no way all of this is completely coincidental.

 

[Deleted member]

With respect to everyone who enjoyed the previous ledge mechanics, I think the current mechanics are far more ideal for offstage play than the past mechanics.

I am glad someone said that. I personally like the fact that you can make it on the ledge without worrying about someone taking the platform. A good balancing tool and should be kept in Smash for Switch. People want Melee HD but there is no use for a Melee HD despite me liking Melee a lot actually.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Andross can become his 'Boss Form' for a Final Smash. Tight garb and giant metallic gloves with thrusters would put the emphasis on humanoid Andross's hands and head, reminiscent of his StarFox battle. The grids and blocks can become special attacks.

Of course. But, unless you have that specific item on, Andross is going to be humanoid in every mode at all times. Again, it would defeat the purpose of having him because it still wouldn't be the Andross we know.

Maybe if he actually appeared as Andorf in Star Fox Zero, things might be different, but nobody would recognize this version of him unless they saw the trophy or a comic book. Or if they did, it wouldn't be the reason they like Andross.

I would love to see Andorf as a playable character, maybe it could work if you gave him his signature abilities, but it just wouldn't feel like Andross to me.

Maybe someone can convince me otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't think Geno has a chance.
There were obviously some complications on Cloud, and I doubt Nintendo would be willing to pay so much money for a character that would only appeal to part of the core fanbase, which is already a vocal minority.
The casual players probably wouldn't even know who he is.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

As for the Kirby issue, imagine if Mario focused on just representing SMB1 and Mario 64 or if Zelda focused on just OoT or Pokemon on just gen 1. That's the issue with Kirby representation in Smash. No stages based on RtDl or TD or SqSq or AM, just some songs and trophies.

I don't think that is a fair comparison. Zelda and Mario constantly change up styles much more than the Kirby series does; the Mario series for example has several pillars: the 3D games, the 2D ones, the RPGs which at the moment can be subdivided into the Paper Mario series and the Mario and Luigi series, and the spin offs, with Mario Kart being the most prominent. And the Pokemon series tends to introduce around a 100 new characters each generation.

Kirby, aside from a couple of spin offs, doesn't shake up it's style nor introduces that many characters which is the reason why it's games tend to have a much more consistent quality with the fans, that is because they are safer and much more simplistic. Which Kirby game would you consider the Mario64/Galaxy/Odyssey/OcarinaofTime/BreathoftheWild of the series? Games that turned heads and shook a lot of foundations at the time? While most of them are good, I say none.

That's why Kirby games are less divisive; you can expect them to be good most of the time without much to worry about but most of them aren't impactful either. With Kirby I see four constants: Kirby himself, Dedede, Meta Knight and Dreamland, toss in Bandana Dee once in a while, and that's what we almost always get on most of it's main iterations. Have these in Smash and you have represented most of the series. There are some new characters once in a while like Magolor, but the others are the core elements. In fact, Magolor is the only brand new thing that I can think off that was introduced in Returns to Dreamland, because the rest of it was a re thread of Super Star. And the Ultra Copy Ability introduced there was already added as Kirby's final smash.

 

[Bowserlick]

I really don't think Geno has a chance.
There were obviously some complications on Cloud, and I doubt Nintendo would be willing to pay so much money for a character that would only appeal to part of the core fanbase, which is already a vocal minority.
The casual players probably wouldn't even know who he is.

Geno's inclusion has to clear more hurdles than most. I do believe he has been consistently requested throughout the series.

I wasn't sure if Geno made more sense as a DLC or a game-seller inclusion. Ultimately, I decided he might be a bigger pull than Rayman. Scorpion makes sense as a DLC because of the controversy surrounding the series he comes from. So, he should be optional rather than automatically included. Belmont is another Konami rep, so I decided he could play second fiddle to Bomberman and come in later.

A possible mechanic is pressing a certain button when one of Geno's projectile hits an opponent for an extra splashy hurtbox that adds damage and can hit other foes.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I really don't think Geno has a chance.
There were obviously some complications on Cloud, and I doubt Nintendo would be willing to pay so much money for a character that would only appeal to part of the core fanbase, which is already a vocal minority.
The casual players probably wouldn't even know who he is.

Literally the only thing he has going for him is Sakurai wanting to add him in Brawl because he acknowledged the popularity.

If you ask me, it'll only happen as DLC.

 

[Deleted member]

Geno's inclusion has to clear more hurdles than most. I do believe he has been consistently requested throughout the series.

I wasn't sure if Geno made more sense as a DLC or a game-seller inclusion. Ultimately, I decided he might be a bigger pull than Rayman. Scorpion makes sense as a DLC because of the controversy surrounding the series he comes from. So, he should be optional rather than automatically included. Belmont is another Konami rep, so I decided he could play second fiddle to Bomberman and come in later.

A possible mechanic is pressing a certain button when one of Geno's projectile hits an opponent for an extra splashy hurtbox that adds damage and can hit other foes.

Geno is an obscure one off Mario character that is owned by a 3rd party company (which means getting the rights costs more money than usual, and this is Square Enix we're talking about) and only a fraction of a fraction wants.
He doesn't make sense period.

 

[NintenRob]

I agree Kirby should definitely get stuff from his modern games. Super Star is great but I wouldn't call it the best. We've had many great Kirby games since. Each with great locations and music.

And they've even added a fourth member to the core cast.

 

[Deleted member]

Literally the only thing he has going for him is Sakurai wanting to add him in Brawl because he acknowledged the popularity.

If you ask me, it'll only happen as DLC.

He'd make even less sense as DLC.
If characters like Isaac and K. Rool were denied because of a lack of relevance, then Geno is dead in the water.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

He'd make even less sense as DLC.

How would that make LESS sense than appearing in the original game?

 

[Deleted member]

How would that make LESS sense than appearing in the original game?

Because DLC is supposed to sell. Sakurai made that clear with Cloud and Ryu.
Geno probably wouldn't sell. Again, the average player probably doesn't even know who he is.

 

[Cosmic77]

He'd make even less sense as DLC.
If characters like Isaac and K. Rool were denied because of a lack of relevance, then Geno is dead in the water.

As much as we might hate to admit, relevancy has a huge role in the roster. Heck, 11 of the 16 Nintendo newcomers we got in Smash 4 debuted on the Wii and onward. The other 5 who didn't () were either extremely relevant within that same time period or were pushed as a retro character.

Geno is a nice callback to the first Mario RPG, but what else has he done since that game? Besides making a cameo in Superstar Saga (which didn't return in the remake), he hasn't done much. If we're really shooting for that first Mario RPG character in Smash, I'd start looking at Paper Mario or possibly even a Mario and Luigi duo that functions similarly to Ice Climbers. Geno is cool and all, but he hasn't done squat to be noticed more than the other candidates.

 

[Bowserlick]

Geno is a Mii Fighter costume. Nintendo knows how well it sold. If there was demand, Nintendo might consider him. The costumes were a nice way to give fans their choices in the polls in some capacity, while also determining if their voices matched their wallet.

I expect some Mii costumes to come back as the character they were modeled after. King K. Rool and Geno may owe future entries to Nintendo's costume-baited fishing expedition.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

The worst thing you can do after removing those characters like Dark Pit & Lucina, is make them costumes. It's insulting to their fans and undoable because of their differences. These are the reasons they are separate characters to begin with.

No, they were added as separate characters because there was extra time. Presumably they would have been costumes otherwise.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

To the surprise of no one, Ridley still remains the most wanted Metroid character (aka he won). Not even Dark Samus or Sylux came close as the two were only a third of his total votes. The Federation Force? They reminded dead last with only few votes.

Though this could be pushing it, this Metroid poll may be the last one before I handle Kirby tomorrow (Perfect timing). Your picks are Anthony Higgs, Mother Brain (monster form or with mechanical ****), Weavel (because he's the most notable Space Pirate commander that isn't Ridley), and Rundas.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good luck.

 

[NintenRob]

Looking forward to Kirby.

 

[Krysco]

I don't think that is a fair comparison. Zelda and Mario constantly change up styles much more than the Kirby series does; the Mario series for example has several pillars: the 3D games, the 2D ones, the RPGs which at the moment can be subdivided into the Paper Mario series and the Mario and Luigi series, and the spin offs, with Mario Kart being the most prominent. And the Pokemon series tends to introduce around a 100 new characters each generation.

Kirby, aside from a couple of spin offs, doesn't shake up it's style nor introduces that many characters which is the reason why it's games tend to have a much more consistent quality with the fans, that is because they are safer and much more simplistic. Which Kirby game would you consider the Mario64/Galaxy/Odyssey/OcarinaofTime/BreathoftheWild of the series? Games that turned heads and shook a lot of foundations at the time? While most of them are good, I say none.

That's why Kirby games are less divisive; you can expect them to be good most of the time without much to worry about but most of them aren't impactful either. With Kirby I see four constants: Kirby himself, Dedede, Meta Knight and Dreamland, toss in Bandana Dee once in a while, and that's what we almost always get on most of it's main iterations. Have these in Smash and you have represented most of the series. There are some new characters once in a while like Magolor, but the others are the core elements. In fact, Magolor is the only brand new thing that I can think off that was introduced in Returns to Dreamland, because the rest of it was a re thread of Super Star. And the Ultra Copy Ability introduced there was already added as Kirby's final smash.

Representation in Smash goes beyond characters. They do the best job of representing the overall series and I do agree that having Kirby, Meta Knight and King Dedede represents the series quite well from purely a character perspective. Bandana Dee would be nice but isn't quite as significant as the other 3. Stages are the next biggest since they show locations from the series and are where the music for the series comes into play along with other little references here and there. This is where the major representation issue is. It doesn't matter that Kirby's style overall stays rather similar. Dreamland 64 obviously doesn't reference anything new since it was made for Smash 64, neither does Green Greens or Fountain of Dreams. Halberd is simply a ship within the series that has made a number of appearances but to my recollection, the only time Kirby has ever been on the Halberd was Superstar during Meta Knight's Revenge. Then you get to the new stages from 4, the 3DS one flatout references numerous levels from the Gameboy games when it could've done that for any Kirby game and GCO is also from Superstar. Looking at characters and stages and not counting remakes of games, all of that Kirby representation is from 1996 or earlier. Assist Trophies are likely the next best representation and all Kirby has is Knuckle Joe and Nightmare which still originated from the older games. I don't care enough about stickers or trophies to look at what all Kirby has for them and as has been said, there's some songs from Triple Deluxe ported right over and Kirby got a new Final Smash and that's it for modern Kirby representation. Oh and the Dragoon is from Air Ride.

Meanwhile, Mario has characters and stages that have origin from the 2D platformers and 3D platformers both old and new, an Assist Trophy from the spinoffs and stages too, a stage from the RPG side and whatever else. Zelda has TP and WW representation through characters, add OoT to the mix thanks to the 3DS stage. Plenty of items with the Cucco, Beetle, Fairy, Skull Kid, Midna, Ghirahim, music from ALBW. Pokemon gets it easy thanks to the Poke Ball item but we have stages to reference both gen 5 and 6 along with music and Lucario is from gen 4. Worst representation probably goes to gen 2 and 3 though I'm not gonna bother to look at what all Pokemon are in the game since they're in the stages, Poke Balls, trophies, stickers in Brawl. Heck, even looking at Metroid, Samus got a redesign based on Other M and a whole stage from that game along with music. Starfox also got stages based on more recent games, rather than just sticking to 64.

Admittedly, I didn't bother to look at the representation that Smash Run offers so that could alleviate the issue and the only 'research' I did was seeing when Superstar came out. Design consistency is one thing but largely ignoring somewhere around 15 to 20 years of a series seems to me like clear pandering towards a specific time frame of said series.

This post is likely a mess since it's just the first thoughts that came to mind put in whatever order they appeared in so my apologies for the messiness and potential typos since I just got off work~

 

[Deleted member]

To the surprise of no one, Ridley still remains the most wanted Metroid character (aka he won). Not even Dark Samus or Sylux came close as the two were only a third of his total votes. The Federation Force? They reminded dead last with only few votes.

Though this could be pushing it, this Metroid poll may be the last one before I handle Kirby tomorrow (Perfect timing). Your picks are Anthony Higgs, Mother Brain (monster form or with mechanical ****), Weavel (because he's the most notable Space Pirate commander that isn't Ridley), and Rundas.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good luck.

Ho-ly **** I was not expecting Rundas to be so dominant.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

Admittedly, I didn't bother to look at the representation that Smash Run offers so that could alleviate the issue and the only 'research' I did was seeing when Superstar came out.

Not really. The enemies in Smash Run with the latest debut were Plasma Wisp and Tac, whose debuts were Kirby Super Star. Every other Kirby enemy in that mode debuted before then.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

We discussing 3rd party characters again?

Crash would make a WONDERFUL addition to the roster for only one reason: 90's console war revival


Imagine vs Sonic and Mario? Probably the best thing I can dream of at the moment

 

[AEMehr]

If Smash is an advertisement for Nintendo's games then how come the new Kirby games don't get any promotion?

This is completely untrue.
Kirby's Final Smash was highlighted to be directly lifted from Return to Dreamland, a few songs and trophies from the game are also present.
Kirby's Epic Yarn was planned to have a stage instead of the Great Cave Offensive, and it was replaced because Yoshi's Wooly World was in development at the time, so they decided to make that stage instead.

The new Kirby games have still received content in the past couple of games. Perhaps not in roster selection, but the roster is not the only aspect of the games.

The stigma that Sakurai dislikes Kirby's current direction is most definitely false, the main reason you see more past Kirby content in gameplay is probably because it's easier to contact the original creator of the source material to consult bring it into Smash (himself).

 

[NintenRob]

This is completely untrue.
Kirby's Final Smash was highlighted to be directly lifted from Return to Dreamland, a few songs and trophies from the game are also present.
Kirby's Epic Yarn was planned to have a stage instead of the Great Cave Offensive, and it was replaced because Yoshi's Wooly World was in development at the time, so they decided to make that stage instead.

The new Kirby games have still received content in the past couple of games. Perhaps not in roster selection, but the roster is not the only aspect of the games.

The stigma that Sakurai dislikes Kirby's current direction is most definitely false, the main reason you see more past Kirby content in gameplay is probably because it's easier to contact the original creator of the source material to consult bring it into Smash (himself).

Most of this complaint isn't directed at character representation, it's in the stage choices

Kirby has never had a stage from post Super Star. All the other franchises get stages from modern games except Kirby.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand why people are annoyed

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, the way Kirby was handled in Smash 4 was a bit confusing. I can understand why Sakurai may have not wanted to include Epic Yarn over Yoshi's Woolly World, but couldn't he at least add some music or trophies from the game? Did not getting a Epic Yarn stage mean that all other representation for the game was doomed? Then there's the matter of the 3DS randomly getting a Gameboy stage from the first Kirby game. Yeah, Triple Deluxe was probably released too late for it to receive a stage, but wouldn't it make more sense to give the Kirby franchise a ton of trophies from that game instead of ones from older games that were released on consoles?

We don't have solid proof that Sakurai avoids modern Kirby, but there's no way all of this is completely coincidental.

There are some modern Kirby songs in Smash 4.
I heard there is a Kirby Triple Deluxe song and a Kirby's Return to Dreamland song in the Grand Canyon Cave Offensive. Kirby does need more modernization, I disagree with the developers idea that Kirby should stay classic. I know Sakurai developed Kirby early and left and wanted to keep it his way, but still.

 

[UserKev]

I really hope there's gonna be another sort of Nintendo fighting game which resembles more classical fighting games or anything... *sigh* Feels bad that one of your favorite gaming franchises sells out on it's own concept so badly. This is why I was especially bitter with Cloud's reveal back when he first showed his face.

NOOOoooo! There is no Nintendo fighting game other than Smash! Smash is the only example!

Outburst aside. That's only because, you know how complex Smash is. Before Sonic was revealed in Brawl, I had an incredible doubt. So I guess I didn't care for his inclusion. I don't think I will ever be fully accepting to Cloud. Heck. Even multiple Fire Emblem reps since their like anime to me. I can say now Smash is pretty much over for me. Haha The advertising is too strong now.

 

[AEMehr]

Most of this complaint isn't directed at character representation, it's in the stage choices

Kirby has never had a stage from post Super Star. All the other franchises get stages from modern games except Kirby.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand why people are annoyed

Well, like I said, you were going to get one. It was just replaced to allow Woolly World to have limelight.

They're not ignoring the later games, it's just evidently easier to get the older stuff.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

No, they were added as separate characters because there was extra time. Presumably they would have been costumes otherwise.

"There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other."
— Masahiro Sakurai​

 

[NintenRob]

Well, like I said, you were going to get one. It was just replaced to allow Woolly World to have limelight.

They're not ignoring the later games, it's just evidently easier to get the older stuff.

It's quite annoying seeing every single Smash Bros game do.

We didn't get a Kirby 64 stage in Melee
We didn't get a Amazing Mirror or Squeak Squad stage Brawl
We didn't get Triple Deluxe in 3DS
We didn't get Return to Dreamland on Wii U

Almost getting something at least means there's potential for something new.

And the amount of other stuff Kirby gets from its newer games is still lower than other franchises

Only 2 songs from Adventure Wii, both of which are first world songs
And initially only one song from Triple Deluxe, another first world song, at least later we got A world to win (which isn't as good as Sectonias other themes or crowned, but still godly)

Kirby series has a lot of in tapped potential in the series, especially in the music department. Brawl actually tapped into this part alright but some of the remixes were less than stellar (looking at you 0²)

 

[Zerp]

I see talk about modern Kirby's representation, so I'm just going to go ahead and take this as a opportunity to post my gripes on the subject.

Spoiler: Sakurai Kirby rant

I find the amount of non-Sakurai Kirby representation to be ridiculously low, I don't think the non-Sakurai directed Kirby games (I'm not talking about just the modern ones either, all of Shimomura's games have gotten the shaft as well) are represented fairly at all. Out of all 55 Kirby trophies, only 4 of them (Ultra Sword, Magolor, Galacta Knight, and the Lor Starcutter) debuted in non-Sakurai games, and none of the stages are from anyone else's games, it's a bit insane. The only somewhat good thing I can say about non-Sakurai Kirby's representation is that out of the 31 songs Kirby has in Smash, 9 of them are not from a Sakurai game or contain melodies from non-Sakurai games, but that's not a big enough thing to really help balance things out much. Honestly, it's kind of surreal to realize important characters to the franchise like Bandana Dee and Dark Matter aren't in the game in any way shape or form (as in they don't even have trophies) yet a relatively unimportant helper like Knuckle Joe is an Assist Trophy out of all the characters that could have been chosen for that role. Also, the decision to scrap Epic Yarn's stage in favor of Wooly World was reasonable, but the choice to replace Kirby's new stage with one from Epic Yarn to a stage from Kirby Super Star instead of Return to Dreamland/Triple Deluxe was ridiculous.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

"There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other."
— Masahiro Sakurai​

Pretty sure the phrases you emphasized on from that quote were talking about why Sakurai decided to give the characters their own spots on the roster rather than just making them alternate costumes with the aforementioned differences, not why Sakurai decided to give them differences in the first place.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

We discussing 3rd party characters again?

Crash would make a WONDERFUL addition to the roster for only one reason: 90's console war revival


Imagine vs Sonic and Mario? Probably the best thing I can dream of at the moment

This is how I'd order third party characters in order of likelihood from my perspective.

1. Simon Belmont
2. Bomberman
3. Shovel Knight
4. Heihachi
5. Terra Branford
6. Crash Bandicoot
7. Rayman
8. Shantae
9. Sash Lilac
10. Banjo & Kazooie

But, of course there's a lot that depends on requests, like Bayonetta.