Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Smash WiI U sold less because it was on a failing console and was rated lower. (Not to mention this is U.S specific.)

This is Smash Bros., dude.

Even if it's utter trash to play on, it'll sell like hotcakes. Exhibit A: Brawl.

Ratings would absolutely not affect sales.

 

[Will]

First of all, Sticker Star is without a doubt the most hated Paper Mario game. Didn't stop Smash 4 from getting a Sticker Star stage, but still, that's a point worth nothing, imo.

Good to know Color Splash can be used instead then.

Didn't stop Smash 4 from getting a Sticker Star stage, but still, that's a point worth nothing, imo.

If you know it's worth nothing then why say it?

Second, Sakurai is never forced to use modern stuff. In fact, he went on to say that if Namco forced him to use the Ghostly Adventures design for Pac-Man, he would've straight up cut him from Smash 4. And while nothing was said about Simon, he still uses his NES design rather than the modern look.

Yes but you assume Sakurai only wants to use the older moveset for every character possible with a somewhat shady past. Take away the hammer and the jump, his arsenal now depends on whatever, which could vary from game to game. It's up in the wind what to do next.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

I'm fairly confident that the rating had **** all to do with Smash Wii U's sales.

E10? What do they think I am some kind of BABY? I'll be taking my money to PS: Allstars, they've got Dante, that's the real cool ****

 

[Swamp Sensei]

God, nearly everyone hated R.O.B, Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt when they got announced. I mean, when the ESRB leak happened and everyone discovered that all we had left were Shulk, Bowser Jr. and Duck Hunt people went CRAZY because "Duck Hunt!?!?! Who asked for Duck Hunt!?!?". It was amazing to see, actually.

Yeah.

And it stopped once people got over the "THIS CAN'T BE THE FINAL ROSTER" blues which happens in every Smash game.

People are pretty positive about them now. Hence the "hindsight."

 

[Fenriraga]

We just always have to find SOMETHING to complain about, don't we?

This is a roster in which Sakurai is seemingly trying to give us everything we want to the best of his ability, and now we're complaining there might not be any surprises? Was Richter not a surprise? Was Daisy not? What about bringing back every character? I know they're Echoes and Veterans, but come on people. Have some faith in the man.

 

[Noipoi]

Smash Wii U sold a little less because the Wii U was a plastic box with an iPad taped to it, not because of the rating.
And it still sold great.

Spoiler

I love you Wii U but God the Switch is so much better

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yes but you assume Sakurai only wants to use the older moveset for every character possible. Take away the hammer and the jump, his arsenal now depends on whatever, which could vary from game to game. It's up in the wind what to do next.

I'm not assuming he only uses the old stuff.

I'm assuming he'll just do whatever the hell he wants. Not forced to old or new, just whatever his mind can think of.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

We just always have to find SOMETHING to complain about, don't we?

This is a roster in which Sakurai is seemingly trying to give us everything we want to the best of his ability, and now we're complaining there might not be any surprises? Was Richter not a surprise? Was Daisy not? What about bringing back every character? I know they're Echoes and Veterans, but come on people. Have some faith in the man.

I could easily flip this argument about fan favorites, gameplay, anything.

This is essentially "shut up and be grateful."

 

[spoilerowl]

The reason fans are so vocal for those older characters is because Ultimate is, far and away, their best chance of showing up in a game period. If they don't make it into Ultimate's roster, base or DLC, some of them will likely never be in a game again. Whereas we'll surely see the more relevant characters pop up throughout their respective series.

Given that almost every Smash 4 newcomer choice was either relevant or iconic, I think it's a fair compromise that Ultimate's newcomers shift in the favor of the much-loved fan favorites who haven't had a chance to shine in years or even decades.

 

[Over9000BPM]

Is it true that Ike has alts depicting both his brawl and sm4sh physique?

 

[Luigi The President]

The difference is probably that those were just spinoffs, whereas Sticker Star, Color Splash, etc. are considered main series Mario games. Another point is the Paper Mario stage being 2/3 Sticker Star. I am confident though if Paper Mario got in that we'd see a decent amount of representation from the first three games.

First of all, Sticker Star is without a doubt the most hated Paper Mario game. Didn't stop Smash 4 from getting a Sticker Star stage, but still, that's a point worth nothing, imo..

Don't put words in the man's mouth, please.

K. Rool represented his appearances in the mainline series. Sticker Star and Color Splash are mainline Paper Mario games. I don't see why Sakurai wouldn't encompass the entire Paper Mario series, especially since Sticker Star still sold well to my knowledge.

Do you have any proof that Japan trashed the game and Color Splash nation-wide? Did the directors of each game said it wasn't "canon" to Paper Mario?
If you answered "no", congratulations, your opinion influenced your post!

So I messed up.
That was definitely my opinion and I apologize.
I never said it wasn't "canon" though. I know all too well they're very much canon.
It was a faulty comparison and I sent that being aware, which was pretty stupid of me (in regards to the K. Rool/PM thing)
I also know he would definitely incorporate SS and CS in some format. I just think he definitely wouldn't use all stickers like I thought you were implying which you obviously weren't. My apologies. Please stop sending with "/QUOTE" at the end, post.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

We just always have to find SOMETHING to complain about, don't we?

This is a roster in which Sakurai is seemingly trying to give us everything we want to the best of his ability, and now we're complaining there might not be any surprises? Was Richter not a surprise? Was Daisy not? What about bringing back every character? I know they're Echoes and Veterans, but come on people. Have some faith in the man.

I repeat, the fact that the roster could be tapped off with just a few more newcomers and there are those who would be devastatingly disappointed makes me feel some kind of way about this community

 

[Will]

Is it true that Ike has alts depicting both his brawl and sm4sh physique?

yeah
there's like a whole demo showing that

 

[Flynn__]

Yeah.

And it stopped once people got over the "THIS CAN'T BE THE FINAL ROSTER" blues which happens in every Smash game.

People are pretty positive about them now. Hence the "hindsight."

Yeah but they can't be considered "good" surprise characters if the "surprise" is negative.

I get what you mean, they are good, well-made characters with interesting traits even though nobody asked for them. But I don't understand what's the problem in having good, well-made characters that were actually highly demanded instead of that. If you only want the "surprise factor" and the surprise factor is only good in hindsight... I dunno.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Is it true that Ike has alts depicting both his brawl and sm4sh physique?

This is true. Ike has both his Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn looks.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

You can't please everyone.

No matter what the game has to offer it's audience, it's always gonna boil down to that.

 

[Nethermoosen]

No, but I would like to know where a game target audience is. Brawl was rated T and still sold like hot cakes. Smash WiI U sold less because it was on a failing console and was rated lower. (Not to mention this is U.S specific.)

Older fans should consider themselves lucky that Sakurai is considering them so much. Yes, if your 21+, your wants is probably going to be way different than what a kid/teen want. I never heard of K. Rool, Isaac, Geno, Banjo, and I was 17. I'm 19 now and I still wouldn't have voted for them on the ballot. Older fans are just far more vocal and rigged the ballot by casting multiple votes. I am expecting a lot more relevant characters as DLC to compensate for this catering to the hardcore base on characters that either hasn't appeared in their series for many many years/ are from dead series. No one asked for Duck Hunt, Wii Fit, Mr. Game and Watch, and R.O.B. Sakurai chose them due to his bias and fans has just come to terms in speculating a WTF pick due to Sakurai history of adding obscure WTF characters.
Elma definitely should have priority over these older characters at the very very least. I would be fine if Sakurai just added Isaac/Banjo/Geno/ what other non-relevant characters that older people want as long as DLC is for relevancy and newer picks. I will apologize in advance, but if these characters don't make it in the base game; I won't be advocating for them to be DLC and I certainly wouldn't vote for them if a ballot popped up. They just don't click with me as someone who grew up in 2007+ era games.

At least I can be excited for DLC. Don't get me wrong, this roster is extremely good. I'm just young.

We were also the younger fans who didn’t get our most wanted. Actually, we never even got much chance to vote. It was either he decided to pay attention or he didn’t. And he mostly didn’t. When melee came out I didn’t even know that would ever become a possibility because the internet was young and slow. More of an information cache than a social gathering. We were those kids, too. And now, I’m just happy about it the same way kids now will be if their characters are excluded until they’re adults. It isn’t against new stuff for new fans. It’s just letting the original supporters of Smash and Nintendo in general have their hayday while they still can. And they did it. The future is for the younger audience. But 10 years down the road, they’ll be where we were. And they’ll understand why this is pretty awesome to see.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I'm fairly confident that the rating had **** all to do with Smash Wii U's sales.

Oh, a misunderstanding, I was referring to the ratings in WII U case as a counterpoint that ratings has to do with sales. I edited my post to clear that up. My apologies.

 

[PeridotGX]

Is it true that Ike has alts depicting both his brawl and sm4sh physique?

True.

 

[Over9000BPM]

yeah
there's like a whole demo showing that

Wouldn’t they have different hitboxes?

 

[Llort A. Ton]

Casual picks (in the context of aimed at younger people like from a few pages back) arent always new/recent characters, but long lasting characters that are in popular games time after time. For example, Id say Daisy is a casual pick, considering Marios popularity with everyone, hardcore and casual, and Daisy is in pretty much every Mario spinoff since 2000. Therefore, many casual gamers can recognize and appreciate her inclusion.
The list of new 'casual picks' can look like this-

Inkling
Daisy
Isabelle
Dixie Kong
Bandanna Dee
Gen 7 Pokemon
Shadow

Id consider that a sizable ammount of picks that casual gamers can enjoy, even if a majority of newcomers are like Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, Simon, Geno, Isaac, etc. Afterwards, DLC can add even more of these picks, like Spring Man and other Switch characters to further balance this "30 year old boomer vs 20 year old zoomer" war going on.

 

[Will]

Wouldn’t they have different hitboxes?

No not really it's just an aesthetic change.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah but they can't be considered "good" surprise characters if the "surprise" is negative.

I get what you mean, they are good, well-made characters with interesting traits even though nobody asked for them. But I don't understand what's the problem in having good, well-made characters that were actually highly demanded instead of that. If you only want the "surprise factor" and the surprise factor is only good in hindsight... I dunno.

You're making this black and white.

The people pushing for surprises want a balance.

Not an overwhelming non stop surprise fest.

 

[Over9000BPM]

This is true. Ike has both his Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn looks.

Wouldn’t they have different hitboxes?

 

[Fenriraga]

I could easily flip this argument about fan favorites, gameplay, anything.

This is essentially "shut up and be grateful."

Yes, it is, because you should be.

I know that's harsh, but seriously, we've had surprises already, so I don't understand why we're suddenly complaining.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wouldn’t they have different hitboxes?

No.

They do not.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I could easily flip this argument about fan favorites, gameplay, anything.

This is essentially "shut up and be grateful."

That was also a pretty common argument against people who had issues with the Smash 4 roster. I can definitely guarantee you that in the hypothetical scenario where the newcomer roster for this had been heavily focused on recency and characters like K. Rool were excluded, people would have used this type of argument in response to anyone being upset at the roster no matter what their complaint was.

 

[Pakky]

Don't worry, my guy! He'll be in!

...As an assist trophy, per Miyamoto's request.

I legit think he had something to do with Nintendo not buying Rare.

 

[Will]

I legit think he had something to do with Nintendo not buying Rare.

Is it the fact that an entire company just as big if not bigger already bought it?

 

[Over9000BPM]

No.

They do not.

But isn’t Sm4sh Ike bigger and bulkier?

 

[spoilerowl]

Wouldn’t they have different hitboxes?

You would think that about the Koopalings too, but Sakurai made it work. The two builds are similar enough that they can get away with not changing hitboxes.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

The list of new 'casual picks' can look like this-

Bandanna Dee

Do I just live in a uncivilized country that I literally never hear about Bandanna Dee beyond Smash speculation? I don't get him as a casual pick, seeing as how I could talk with my nerdy ass friends and they wouldn't know who he is, so I wouldn't expect popularity for him among my younger less video game knowledgeable peers

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yes, it is, because you should be.

I know that's harsh, but seriously, we've had surprises already, so I don't understand why we're suddenly complaining.

Again, you could say this about anything.

That was also a pretty common argument against people who had issues with the Smash 4 roster. I can definitely guarantee you that in the hypothetical scenario where the newcomer roster for this had been heavily focused on recency and characters like K. Rool were excluded, people would have used this type of argument in response to anyone being upset at the roster no matter what their complaint was.

Oh I know. That's why I don't like it.

But isn’t Sm4sh Ike bigger and bulkier?

Only in appearance and not by much.

 

[Garteam]

... I hope Paper Mario is in and that Miyamoto didn't storm the Sora Limited office when he found out Sakurai was working on him...

I like to think Sakurai sneaks into Sora Limited's offices everyday, and tries to convince Sakurai to replace most of the roster with various Toads.

 

[PeridotGX]

I repeat, the fact that the roster could be tapped off with just a few more newcomers and there are those who would be devastatingly disappointed makes me feel some kind of way about this community

Yeah, I don't get those people. Sure I don't care much for the current newcomers and the common predictions, but I'm still satisfied and I probably still will be.

 

[praline]

Is it true that Ike has alts depicting both his brawl and sm4sh physique?

Did you not watch any of the Smash direct footage?

 

[Over9000BPM]

You would think that about the Koopalings too, but Sakurai made it work. The two builds are similar enough that they can get away with not changing hitboxes.

Good point. *crosses fingers for a Sm4sh zamus alt*

 

[DarkFalcon]

That was also a pretty common argument against people who had issues with the Smash 4 roster. I can definitely guarantee you that in the hypothetical scenario where the newcomer roster for this had been heavily focused on recency and characters like K. Rool were excluded, people would have used this type of argument in response to anyone being upset at the roster no matter what their complaint was.

This is only an issue if the same exact people used this argument for the prior roster as well. I'd still be grateful for how much Sakurai has put into this game even if he just focused on purely newer characters, but I'm even more grateful that he's giving so many people what they've wanted for ages in this game.

 

[Deleted member]

I legit think he had something to do with Nintendo not buying Rare.

I wouldn't say think, I'd probably bet money on that.

After all, we're talking about the same person who took a beloved spin-off franchise that was a supplement for Super Mario RPG fans and butchered it in the worst way possible to where even a simple remaster or port is what'll appease people.

I'm not mad about Paper Mario, not at all. I'm just. Fine.

 

[Garteam]

The "This game was negatively received therefore it can't be in Smash" argument immediately falls apart when you realize Sonic 06 was referenced a fair bit in Brawl.