Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DarthEnderX]

What do you lot mean "this is the time for old school stuff" or "older fans have been left out for ages"? Who do you think was added in Smash Bros on N64? In Melee? In Brawl? What you actually want is for them to first-and-foremost cater to your nostalgia memories, regardless of younger fans or more recent characters.

And?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm already making Ashley for Smashley posters.
Is the 12 year wait mandatory, or can I squeeze it to around 7?
I need to know the regulations for this.

Ashley's been around for 14 years. At what point is she not considered a new character?

 

[Noipoi]

Pokemon is a weird exception. I'd say Fire Emblem too, but we got 3 Awakening characters somehow. Xenoblade I really believe we were always gonna get Shulk first no matter when the series got added to Smash.

But new franchises like ARMS or Splatoon? If this is their only chance they never deserves to be in at all (Splatoon has proven itself not to be a fad, ARMS I'm not convinced)

When did I say this was Splatoon's only chance? I'm not talking about Splatoon.
I just mean newer characters.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Wow, I didn't know rules of supporting characters in Smash was so strict.

I kind of doubt the sincerity of someone who says "Oh no, it's not the flavor of the month" then never follows through if they don't get what they want at that very moment.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

um... you sure these are retro chars? K.Rool appeared 13 years ago in his own series, 10 if you count Mario, and Simon 8 years ago. Not super irrelevant at all.

Seeing as how Villager was brought up I think the definition of retro has changed

 

[Noipoi]

Ashley's been around for 14 years. At what point is she not considered a new character?

When I say new characters I don't mean Ashley.
She's already been deconfirmed why would I be talking about Ashley?

 

[osby]

Pokemon is a weird exception. I'd say Fire Emblem too, but we got 3 Awakening characters somehow. Xenoblade I really believe we were always gonna get Shulk first no matter when the series got added to Smash.

But new franchises like ARMS or Splatoon? If this is their only chance they never deserves to be in at all (Splatoon has proven itself not to be a fad, ARMS I'm not convinced)

This is a game, not an official All Stars list of Nintendo. Why characters need to pass a time test to prove they are Worthy?

 

[DarkFalcon]

Chrom is just a clone though, he was an easy, somewhat popular addition, it's not like he's comparable to Elma or anything like that

Please read what I said. That's moving the goalposts and a different argument entirely. The entire point of my post was if they're popular enough they'll always have a chance even if they're "outdated".

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

When I say new characters I don't mean Ashley.
She's already been deconfirmed why would i be talking about Ashley?

You JUST said Ashley. It's right there in the comment I quoted

 

[Nethermoosen]

Seeing as how Villager was brought up I think the definition of retro has changed

Retro is a prefix meaning “directed or moving backward.” Retro will change and grow every generation.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

To be fair, it's kinda like Pokemon or Fire Emblem.
Most series have a recurring cast that show up every game. Mario, Peach, Bowser. Sonic, Tails, Eggman. etc.
But series like Pokemon, Fire Emblem or in this case Xenoblade are different. Those games get a new cast of characters every game, and the old ones are quickly outdated with only a few standing the test of time like Charizard and Lucario.
That's why Ultimate is the only chance these characters get, because in a year they'll be replaced by a whole new cast.

While I understand where you're coming from in principle, there's something I just don't like about this line. You're basically saying that Pokémon/FE/Xenoblade are allowed to have one-shots grandfathered into Smash since the games are all about one-shots. But if a series like Zelda comes by, it's okay to deny a position to a titular deuteragonist because "Well, Midna was only in one game so..."

I realize that there are minor differences by series, but why is for example Elma (a badass female companion to the main character who has abilities not yet seen in Smash but was only in one game) a better choice for Ultimate than Midna (a badass female companion to the main character who has abilities not yet seen in Smash but was only in one game) for Brawl. This does seem like moving goalposts in a way.

 

[Dixie Kong]

I think the argument is not to have any “one off” characters, but have more older long requested characters than those.

 

[Noipoi]

You JUST said Ashley. It's right there in the comment I quoted

You said asked if I was ready to support a character for over a decade.
Because Ashley is still my secret wish that'll never happen I said yes.
I didn't know you meant to ask if I wanted to support a NEW character for 12 years, sorry for the mix up.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

pokemon and fire emblem are often given exception because they are fast moving series with a lot of characters, usually the next game in the series will have it's own unique set of characters, the main difference is that pokemon is arguably the biggest series not called mario (I would argue as a whole franchise, it makes Zelda look tiny) and there's been quite a variety of character archetypes for it.

I hope echoes give the opportunity to let them slap the main swordsman #500 character as a clone and give the newcomer role to someone who can truly provide a new playstyle, sorta like what smash 4 did shoving chrom and lucina to the side for robin.

 

[DarkFalcon]

As you all can see, there is a disagreement between long time fans and newer fans. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner honestly.

 

[zeldasmash]

I still can't believe this like it has to have been a misunderstanding/mistranslation. What possible first party game are they going to announce now that will release in the next 4 months?!

Also yo.. this time next week Smash will only be 3 months away. That's crazy.

This is a good question....I mean, I seriously don't know which one. It ain't Zelda or Mario (Mario already has Super Mario Party), Metroid Prime 4 is certainly not it either, Pokemon Let's Go is coming out this year and we already know that, Fire Emblem is next year, Donkey Kong had Tropical Freeze on Switch this, Bayonetta 3 is next year, Kirby got a game this year....

The only franchises I can think off that haven't had a release or announcement have been Kid Icarus, Star Fox, Mother and F-Zero.

....I hope it's the last one.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

As you all can see, there is a disagreement between long time fans and newer fans. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner honestly.

What makes Ultimate unique in that I never really noticed any divide in the fanbase during the other games?

 

[Nethermoosen]

As you all can see, there is a disagreement between long time fans and newer fans. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner honestly.

Guess we’re gonna have to start talking about “back in the day.”

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Please read what I said. That's moving the goalposts and a different argument entirely. The entire point of my post was if they're popular enough they'll always have a chance even if they're "outdated".

Except my point is that getting in as a unique character and getting in as a clone are 2 entirely different things with entirely different requirements, the fact of the matter is not every character can become a k rool, becoming absurdly popular despite their lack of relevance. Someone like elma will always be lower priority than whatever the next xenoblade character is, popularity won't change that unless she suddenly becomes absurdly popular

 

[Noipoi]

What makes Ultimate unique in that I never really noticed any divide in the fanbase during the other games?

Ultimate is unique in that it's focus is a little more on old favorites, which is fine, but according to some that means newer favorites will get the boot.
"Limited space" after all.

 

[DarkFalcon]

Except my point is that getting in as a unique character and getting in as a clone are 2 entirely different things with entirely different requirements, the fact of the matter is not every character can become a k rool, becoming absurdly popular despite their lack of relevance.

And that wasn't an argument I was making. In fact, that's a pointless argument because we don't know who'll still be popular in 5, 10, 15 years from now.

 

[SlickWylde]

As you all can see, there is a disagreement between long time fans and newer fans. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner honestly.

Lol, yeah. I have no problem with newer fans disagreeing, but I think a big problem is someone who's 30 (like me) has a difficult time debating with someone who's 15. We have such different perspectives on life, and the logic we use to formulate our thoughts is so different. And of course, the older people think "I'm more logical than this youngin'", while the younger people think "Wow, this old guy is out of touch". Both sides have valid points, if we just learn to accept that people aren't going to agree with us.

And when it comes to character additions, it's all subjective. There is no right or wrong method to add characters, really.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

This is a good question....I mean, I seriously don't know which one. It ain't Zelda or Mario (Mario already has Super Mario Party), Metroid Prime 4 is certainly not it either, Pokemon Let's Go is coming out this year and we already know that, Fire Emblem is next year, Donkey Kong had Tropical Freeze on Switch this, Bayonetta 3 is next year, Kirby got a game this year....

The only franchises I can think off that haven't had a release or announcement have been Kid Icarus, Star Fox, Mother and F-Zero.

....I hope it's the last one.

And that Star Fox Grand Prix thing went no where so maybe a surprise reveal for a December release???

Honestly the way that was phrased made it sound like big game changers were still coming out this year...a Star Fox racing spin off honestly doesn't sound like that.

I know not every Nintendo fan likes the same thing...but Smash and Pokemon (regardless of the game it is) coming out within a month of each other absolutely says end of the year blow out for me. I mean that's like two big games for Christmas what more do you want??? What other single developer is releasing two of their best selling franchises in the same month? Honestly Nintendo gets **** on sometimes lol

 

[DarthEnderX]

Gotta finish the Classic Editions Checklist!

Gimmie,
Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
Arthur [Ghosts 'n Goblins]
Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
Billy Lee/Jimmy Lee [Double Dragon]
Bub/Bob [Bubble Bobble]
Mike Jones [Star Tropics]
Vic Viper [Gradius]
Randi [Secret of Mana]

 

[ColietheGoalie]

Ultimate is unique in that it's focus is a little more on old favorites, which is fine, but according to some that means newer favorites will get the boot.
"Limited space" after all.

I mean, there is limited space, but I don’t think anyone is actively hoping newer franchises get screwed over. Some long-standing favorites the getting a chance and some people are excited about that. It doesn’t have to turn into a “generational divide” thing.

 

[Dukeofdeath5]

If focus on ballot favorites/characters that have been requesting for as long as I've been playing smash and sacrificing newer faces for it is now I problem then Idk what the **** this community wants anymore

Ultimate is unique in that it's focus is a little more on old favorites, which is fine, but according to some that means newer favorites will get the boot.
"Limited space" after all.

 

[Paperchampion23]

Except my point is that getting in as a unique character and getting in as a clone are 2 entirely different things with entirely different requirements, the fact of the matter is not every character can become a k rool, becoming absurdly popular despite their lack of relevance. Someone like elma will always be lower priority than whatever the next xenoblade character is, popularity won't change that unless she suddenly becomes absurdly popular

I mean, there are quite a few characters like that already. Isaac, Geno and Banjo are just a few examples like K. Rool. We don't even know if K. Rool placed higher than those characters in the Ballot anyway, since the only thing Sakurai has said was "he placed very high" And we don't have official ballot records.

 

[DarkFalcon]

If you want to believe Vergeben he did say we're getting a new gen 7 Pokemon. So it's not like they're completely ignoring the new if that is accurate.

 

[Enchess]

As you all can see, there is a disagreement between long time fans and newer fans. I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner honestly.

The TL:DR from my ultra-bias perspective:
Long time fans think it's about time characters they've been asking for over a decade get in.
New fans think their favorites should be prioritized more over 'nostalgia' picks, missing the point that the majority of these characters weren't nostalgic at all when their support started.

Also, to defend my use of "deserve", why else are Mario and Pokemon so represented? They earned it. You can say "they are popular" or "they have history" or whatever, but that's all just different ways they've earned their spots. Spots arent given out without any thought for how deserving the characters. Otherwise our roster wouldn't reflect sales, popularity, or influence.

 

[Garteam]

I still think we'll get some characters who didn't do too hot on the ballot. After all, Simon didn't set anything on fire when it came to Smash popularity and he made the cut.

At the very, very least, I'm still confident we're getting a Gen 7 newcomer. Sun and Moon were the biggest upcoming releases when the roster was finalized in late 2015, plus Pokemon has extreme appeal to the general public. Avoiding a new 'mon would be extremely out there.

Plus I still need Ayumi and a Dragon Quest character.

 

[zeldasmash]

And that Star Fox Grand Prix thing went no where so maybe a surprise reveal for a December release???

Honestly the way that was phrased made it sound like big game changers were still coming out this year...a Star Fox racing spin off honestly doesn't sound like that.

I know not every Nintendo fan likes the same thing...but Smash and Pokemon (regardless of the game it is) coming out within a month of each other absolutely says end of the year blow out for me. I mean that's like two big games for Christmas what more do you want??? What other single developer is releasing two of their best selling franchises in the same month? Honestly Nintendo gets **** on sometimes lol

Agreed on Star Fox Grand Prix going no where. Plus it makes no sense in any way to make a Grand Prix game based solely on Star Fox when it has few characters to work with for one. It would just seem bare bones in comparison to other racers. If you want a futuristic racing game with an animal motif, you go with F-Zero. If anything, Star Fox being guest racers (barring James) and even Samus being a guest racer in F-Zero would be a game changer.

Though F-Zero being announced in and of itself is a game changer, at least to me.

 

[Chrono.]

I guess Smash Ultimate was never about heroes vs villains.

It was about millennials vs gen z.

 

[DarkFalcon]

The TL:DR from my ultra-bias perspective:
Long time fans think it's about time characters they've been asking for over a decade get in.
New fans think their favorites should be prioritized more over 'nostalgia' picks, missing the point that the majority of these characters weren't nostalgic at all when their support started.

Also, to defend my use of "deserve", why else are Mario and Pokemon so represented? They earned it. You can say "they are popular" or "they have history" or whatever, but that's all just different ways they've earned their spots. Spots arent given out without any thought for how deserving the characters. Otherwise our roster wouldn't reflect sales, popularity, or influence.

You've got a few oddball characters like Game & Watch and ROB, but I think you can even make an argument for them considering their history.

 

[Blargg888]

Why do characters need to pass a time test to prove they are Worthy?

I mean, they don't.

Not necessarily at least.

Some do, but that's only if their time has passed.

People make this sound very black and white, but I feel like there's more to it than that.

 

[Enchess]

I still think we'll get some characters who didn't do too hot on the ballot. After all, Simon didn't set anything on fire when it came to Smash popularity and he made the cut.

At the very, very least, I'm still confident we're getting a Gen 7 newcomer. Sun and Moon were the biggest upcoming releases when the roster was finalized in late 2015, plus Pokemon has extreme appeal to the general public. Avoiding a new 'mon would be extremely out there.

Plus I still need Ayumi and a Dragon Quest character.

Simon probably didn't get in due to ballot, but friendly reminder he's still an incredibly popular character from an even more incredibly loved and yet more influencial series. Like for real, Castlevania is at least Halo tier in terms of importance to gaming history.

 

[Deleted member]

Ultimate is unique in that it's focus is a little more on old favorites, which is fine, but according to some that means newer favorites will get the boot.
"Limited space" after all.

Out of curiosity, what is considered a 'Newer' favorite? So many of Nintendo's recognizable characters are either already in or are 'older' characters. The only notable ones left were the Inklings (since they were pretty new) and an ARMs represenative. Many of the ones I can think of are characters from before 2010, which are by no means new (new to the series, sure, but not 'New' themselves).

 

[Deleted member]

What makes Ultimate unique in that I never really noticed any divide in the fanbase during the other games?

I've honestly never really seen a divide. Bit late on this, but personally, when I was learning in-depth about the stories about Ridley and King K. Rool back during the tail-end of Smash 4, I was feeling for those guys, especially since this was coming from a hardcore Geno fan since Brawl. I feel seeing all these fan favorites doesn't necessarily mean the roster is gonna be "all fan favorites", but I feel that Ultimate will have a lot of long-time and/or highly requested characters for the past 5-10+ years or so with a few recent additions sprinkled in.

 

[Enchess]

Out of curiosity, what is considered a 'Newer' favorite? So many of Nintendo's recognizable characters are either already in or are 'older' characters. The only notable ones left were the Inklings (since they were pretty new) and an ARMs represenative. Many of the ones I can think of are characters from before 2010, which are by no means new (new to the series, sure, but not 'New' themselves).

I've been considering Isaac a newer character this whole time due to Nintendo still not considering GBA old enough to be retro, but everyone who disses him considers him a nostalgia retro pick. We can't win haha

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Sakurai doesn't add characters to fill a quota.

was only considered because they could fill a quota.

Actually I'm pretty sure the ballot was super interested in finding out what girls wanted.

It's why they had a gender option in the ballot.

But if that's the case, who did they vote for?

*shrugs* Layton?

Yeah, apparently if you were born after the snes era your favorites don't matter.

Aw man, Isaac is disconfirmed.

If literally the last characters are like, Banjo-Kazooie, Isaac, and Geno, it will make for some interesting reactions.

"So we get a walking N64 nostalgia pick, generic anime swordsman no. 7684 and a one-shot from some old Mario RPG as our last chaarcters? These newcomers are only for 30-year old nostalgic fanboys!"

All of a sudden I miss the FE and Rex/Pyra conversations.

This is way more interesting.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I've been considering Isaac a newer character this whole time due to Nintendo still not considering GBA old enough to be retro, but everyone who disses him considers him a nostalgia retro pick. We can't win haha

Something similar happened with K. Rool. People didn't consider him old enough to be retro, yet he also was old and irrelevant.