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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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FutureSky

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New director could mean a diferent roster selection.

Maybe the new direction explores the deep nintendo library and adds characters from obscure nintendo IPs because they have moveset potential instead of sticking in mostly what recently came out.

Or he just does the same as Sakurai, really
 
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Megadoomer

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If we do get a new director, I hope they at least share Sakurai's mentality on keeping as many unique characters as possible for the sake of their fans. I'd hate to see massive, sweeping cuts to the roster of the next Smash game, especially since the few cuts that we have had already stung me a bit. (I played a lot of Mewtwo in Melee and Snake in Brawl, so needless to say, I wasn't thrilled with those cuts)
 

N3ON

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Daisy's situation is reminescent of how K. Rool was treated before the announcement of DLC. Even though K. Rool had his fair share of popularity, both Mewtwo and Ridley were requested and brought up in conversation far more than him. It wasn't until Mewtwo got confirmed and Sakurai gave an official statement on Ridley that K. Rool's popularity really started to take off. Since the other two no longer had a reason to be supported, people moved on to K. Rool and started requesting him more frequently.

Obviously Daisy's popularity is not comparable to K. Rool, but the same thing essentially happened with her. She was fairly popular among Mario requests, but once Rosa and Jr. got announced, people moved on to other characters from the franchise who they believed would have the next best chance of getting added.
I don't think that's the same at all. First of all, the paradigm itself is different. It's not a question of series "hierarchy", it's just general popularity of characters. There's nothing to tie those characters together other than them being popular, as opposed to people looking to fill a spot from a specific series.

Second, K. Rool has been popular the entirety of Smash 4 speculation. Right at the beginning he was considered to be in the "Elite 4" along with Ridley, Mega Man, and Mewtwo. So his popularity didn't explode so much as it maintained (with some fluctuation) while Ridley, Mega Man, and Mewtwo were eliminated as candidates. He's the only candidate of top-tier popularity to have endured. That's certainly not the same as only coming to prominence upon the elimination of others, like Daisy.

And lastly, unlike Daisy, if implemented, K. Rool would be unique. He's important to his series. The only real similarity is his popularity didn't kick off in earnest until after Diddy got in, as I said a few posts back. But those other two points still differentiate him from Daisy and rationalize why people demand him so fervently.

Daisy wasn't the only Mario character to start getting more support around this time either; Captain Toad was another Mario character who was gaining some ground in popularity following Bowser Junior's reveal.
Captain Toad's timing makes more sense considering his popularity rose upon his game's release. Given it was his first starring title, it makes sense there'd be only limited amounts beforehand. If Daisy had received her own game around then you'd have a much different situation on your hands.
 
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NintenRob

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Quick Baby Mario trailer idea

It's Ryu and Baby Mario, in blank white space. Baby Mario is smiling up at Ryu and Ryu can't make up his mind what to do, he raises his fist but doesn't follow through, he thinks to himself what to do.

Baby Mario promptly slams his hammer on Ryus foot and Ryu clearly in Pain kicks Baby Mario away with his other foot.

He begins to limp away when he hears "uh uh" He looks around and fear comes across his face, he tries to run but the Chain Chomp jumps from the side eating him whole in a role. Baby Mario on top

Baby Mario bites back
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Captain Toad's timing makes more sense considering his popularity rose upon his game's release. Given it was his first starring title, it makes sense there'd be only limited amounts beforehand. If Daisy had received her own game around then you'd have a much different situation on your hands.
Actually Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker was not the first game to star Toad. That title goes to Wario's Woods.
 

Diddy Kong

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Is King K.Rool seriously being compared to Daisy right now? My eyes are burning
 

KingofPhantoms

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If we do get a new director, I hope they at least share Sakurai's mentality on keeping as many unique characters as possible for the sake of their fans. I'd hate to see massive, sweeping cuts to the roster of the next Smash game, especially since the few cuts that we have had already stung me a bit. (I played a lot of Mewtwo in Melee and Snake in Brawl, so needless to say, I wasn't thrilled with those cuts)
And this is a major reason why I think that a new director + Sakurai assisting the director in a consulting role could be the ideal situation.

A new director could mean new possibilities for characters, but it could also affect the roster in a more negative way that leads to cuts that might've otherwise been avoided or not possible in the first place. Sure, Sakurai might not have the final say on the roster as only a consultant, but his influence could still help the situations of some characters we've gotten already, should whoever the new director be have a different mentality on characters. I think it would be great for a new director to step in for their own take on franchise, but at the same time keeping to the mentality that has gotten us the Smash games and their rosters we have so far.

Actually Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker was not the first game to star Toad. That title goes to Wario's Woods.
Aren't Toad and Captain Toad separate characters, though?
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Also, the Toad in Wario's Woods first appeared in Super Mario Bros. 2 USA. That's the "main" Toad.

Captain Toad may be a different one, but regardless, they're overall different in playstyle and options anyway.
 

StarCrystal20

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As a Daisy fan, I acknowledge that Daisy is not an important character to the series. She is definitely a spin off character, but that's every reason TO include her.

1) We already have the main Mario cast, so why not branch out to the spin off characters in the next game?
2) Daisy and Waluigi are the most reocuring spin off characters in the 50+ Mario titles. Birdo, Toadette, Boo, and others are constantly absent and not guaranteed.
3) Some may then argue that they'd only add Waluigi then. Well, what's to say they wouldn't add both? Mario is the main and most sold franchise in Smash, so I can see it happening.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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As far as I know, that's never been confirmed.

My guess is that it's up for interpretation (for now), though I think Toad and Captain Toad are a singular character.
According to Treasure Tracker's producer, they are separate characters.

http://web.archive.org/web/20170202...e.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAAADVHhqTRtYFw

Unfortunately this interview was done on Miiverse, which of course has been shutdown, so the best source I could find was an archived version of this post.
 

MamaLuigi123456

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As a Daisy fan, I acknowledge that Daisy is not an important character to the series. She is definitely a spin off character, but that's every reason TO include her.

1) We already have the main Mario cast, so why not branch out to the spin off characters in the next game?
2) Daisy and Waluigi are the most reocuring spin off characters in the 50+ Mario titles. Birdo, Toadette, Boo, and others are constantly absent and not guaranteed.
3) Some may then argue that they'd only add Waluigi then. Well, what's to say they wouldn't add both? Mario is the main and most sold franchise in Smash, so I can see it happening.
I can get behind these reasons - I'd like for Waluigi and Daisy to make the cut - but some could also argue that the fact we do have all the main Mario cast characters is indication that no more should be added.
According to Treasure Tracker's producer, they are separate characters.

http://web.archive.org/web/20170202...e.nintendo.net/replies/AYMHAAACAAADVHhqTRtYFw

Unfortunately this interview was done on Miiverse, which of course has been shutdown, so the best source I could find was an archived version of this post.
Well this is news to me, thanks for the info.
 

Bowserlick

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Trailer: Captain Falcon knees Diddy Kong in the air. The primate is hurtled down into the dirt where he skids a distance. Dust clouds roll apart and Diddy opens one eye as a shadow looms over him.

Hope twinkles in his eyes as if an angel has descended to aid him in the rumble against Captain Falcon. A shadow is seen in the frame with Diddy. A shadow with a pony-tail. There is thematic, dramatic music as we cut to the familiar newcomer introduction screen: DIXIE KONG Kopters in?

Clearly the fighter shown is K. Rool stuffed in a Dixie outfit with a wig. Cut back to the fight where we witness mouths drop and shock & horror wave across both Dixie and Captain's faces. King K. Rool, in Dixie costume, pulls out a blunderbuss from behind his back, stuffs Diddy in and fires him at Falcon.

Then there is a montage of in-game fighting scenes that show off the Kremlin Kroc and his ability to switch between his boss costumes from the first three DK Country's gaining new specials.

* As a bonus Dixie can really appear as a second fighter at the end of the trailer helping the boys fend off the imposter.
 
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StarCrystal20

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I can get behind these reasons - I'd like for Waluigi and Daisy to make the cut - but some could also argue that the fact we do have all the main Mario cast characters is indication that no more should be added.
True, but reason 3 is the argument against that. lol. Mario is ionic and popular so they'd branch out and possibly add more.

Also, it should be noted that popular ballot choices got recognition somehow. K Rool, Geno, and the Inklings got Mii Costumes.

While Daisy's Mii Costume hair was already in, we did see her popping up more prominently in games after the Ballot.
Specifically, all in 2017:
-She became playable in Super Mario Run, her first platformer, with a new unique ability, the double jump.
-She became playable in Mario Kart GP DX, an arcade game. I know the game is not significant but it has been out in 2013 so it's strange that they are adding her within this time.
-In Mario Sports SuperStars she is a representative for the horse racing sport and appears on 3 out of 5 Menu select portraits. She is featured the most on these screens than any other character lol

While the last 2 may seem trivial, my point is basically that Nintendo seems to be aware of the fanbase's support for the character; small fanbase or not.
 
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Ura

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New director could mean a diferent roster selection.

Maybe the new direction explores the deep nintendo library and adds characters from obscure nintendo IPs because they have moveset potential instead of sticking in mostly what recently came out.

Or he just does the same as Sakurai, really
I would love any director that would do this. I hate how relevancy kills a lot of characters chances from being included.
If we do get a new director, I hope they at least share Sakurai's mentality on keeping as many unique characters as possible for the sake of their fans. I'd hate to see massive, sweeping cuts to the roster of the next Smash game, especially since the few cuts that we have had already stung me a bit. (I played a lot of Mewtwo in Melee and Snake in Brawl, so needless to say, I wasn't thrilled with those cuts)
I think a new take would be welcomed. I mean Smash Bros has been confined to certain criteria for so long so maybe a shake up would be for the good.

Or maybe it would be horrible? Who's to say? If nothing else it would be interesting.
Is King K.Rool seriously being compared to Daisy right now? My eyes are burning
My goodness. How far we've fallen. :(

Next thing you know people are going to compare K. Rool to Steve.
 

Geno Boost

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If Geno becomes playable in the next smash game which SMRPG character assist trophy do you think would be the most likely?

Personally I want it to be Bowyer since he does something very unique that only few video game characters does which is blocking a button such as A or B or X or Y plus I want to hear his broken language.
 

Guybrush20X6

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This.

Remember what happened LAST time pro-smashers and hackers tried to design a fighting game?

Still the worst title ever for a game.

It's so generic that google has trouble picking it up.

Hint for future game designers: If you're game is named for a real word, use an uncommon one like Captain Haddock would use in one of his faux-swears.

For Example: Iconoclasts.
 

Staarih

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If Geno becomes playable in the next smash game which SMRPG character assist trophy do you think would be the most likely?
Want: Booster.
Most likely: Mallow, being a main character and all.

Speaking of Geno, with Cloud in Smash, do you guys think it helps Geno getting in Smash some day (with ”doors open” to Square Enix), or hinders his chances (because of, well, Cloud already in)?
 
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Al-kīmiyā'

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I don't see Cloud coming back, and I really don't see Geno getting in. I don't think Square Enix characters are as hard to get as everyone makes them out to be. I just think there are better Square Enix characters for Smash.

This.

Remember what happened LAST time pro-smashers and hackers tried to design a fighting game?

I'm out of the loop. What's so bad about that game?
 
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AwesomeAussie27

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The tallies are in. The winner was Paper Mario of the four RPG Mario characters. Geno was pretty damn close too, but couldn't take him on. Mallow and Fawful however were both abysmal.

Anyways, we are entering a controversial subject. That would be the idea of Donkey Kong Country newcomers due to being a hotly debated subject. Your choices are King K. Rool, Cranky Kong, Funky Kong, and Dixie Kong. That makes three Kongs and one Kremling.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Good luck.
 

Geno Boost

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Speaking of Geno, with Cloud in Smash, do you guys think it helps Geno getting in Smash some day (with ”doors open” to Square Enix), or hinders his chances (because of, well, Cloud already in)?
It helps as long as Sakurai stays since he considered adding Geno twice and also square-enix becoming a bit more open with crossovers such as Noctis being playable in SF
 
D

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Still the worst title ever for a game.

It's so generic that google has trouble picking it up.

Hint for future game designers: If you're game is named for a real word, use an uncommon one like Captain Haddock would use in one of his faux-swears.

For Example: Iconoclasts.
I believe there's a strong sense of dramatic irony in calling your game "Icons" all the while missing the point in what makes Smash so popular and filling your game with Melee functions.

I'm out of the loop. What's so bad about that game?
Enjoy:


Made by exPM devs, and shown off in front of a live audience last EVO (ergo, at the same time as ACTUAL hype reveals like Geese Howard in Tekken, Trunks in DBFZ, and BBCTB). Also yes, PM did indeed die for this.

Reception was so bad, they actually deleted their original video on their channel, and kept chugging along without really much listening to any of the feedback. Over 6 months later, and it's still a soulless Melee clone.
 
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Yomi's Biggest Fan

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Probably late to the Paper Mario discussion, but whatever.

What most Paper Mario fans would want is for him to use badges, the Party Members, and the hammer. Just mostly being based on the Thousand Year Door. At least from what I remember from all the older discussions.

But that’s looking less likely since Sticker Star and Color Splash are a thing, this making said Thousand Year Door references seem dated. So he’s likely going to use paint and stickers in his official moveset.

And no, this is not me expressing distaste of those particular games, but me acknowledging that’s the likeliest way Paper Mario would be portrayed if he joins Smash one day.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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This.

Remember what happened LAST time pro-smashers and hackers tried to design a fighting game?

I believe there's a strong sense of dramatic irony in calling your game "Icons" all the while missing the point in what makes Smash so popular and filling your game with Melee functions.


Enjoy:


Made by exPM devs, and shown off in front of a live audience last EVO (ergo, at the same time as ACTUAL hype reveals like Geese Howard in Tekken, Trunks in DBFZ, and BBCTB). Also yes, PM did indeed die for this.

Reception was so bad, they actually deleted their original video on their channel, and kept chugging along without really much listening to any of the feedback. Over 6 months later, and it's still a soulless Melee clone.
Their reddit AMA seemed to appease a lot of people, and as far as being a "soulless Melee clone," I'm not sure what you want. The whole idea is to emulate and hopefully improve on Melee.
 

MamaLuigi123456

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Probably late to the Paper Mario discussion, but whatever.

What most Paper Mario fans would want is for him to use badges, the Party Members, and the hammer. Just mostly being based on the Thousand Year Door. At least from what I remember from all the older discussions.

But that’s looking less likely since Sticker Star and Color Splash are a thing, this making said Thousand Year Door references seem dated. So he’s likely going to use paint and stickers in his official moveset.

And no, this is not me expressing distaste of those particular games, but me acknowledging that’s the likeliest way Paper Mario would be portrayed if he joins Smash one day.
Well Smash has shown that they are not afraid to draw reference from the older Paper Mario titles; several Super Paper Mario trophies appear in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U, the S.S. Flavion and the Whale appear on the Paper Mario stage, and there's also a trophy for the Li'l Oinks from Paper Mario in Smash 4.

As far as I'm concerned, both movesets are equally as likely.
 
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Opossum

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Their reddit AMA seemed to appease a lot of people, and as far as being a "soulless Melee clone," I'm not sure what you want. The whole idea is to emulate and hopefully improve on Melee.
I was there for the AMA and honestly it felt like cautious optimism instead of appeasement, if anything. Definitely still a ton of skepticism surrounding it though.
 

N3ON

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It just seems kind of silly to me to rag on a game that's not even out yet.
If the finished product is less mediocre than it looks then everyone wins.

Except those that would’ve just rather had more P:M. Which I’d wager is a lot of people.
 
D

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This opinion is going to be highly controversial, but I highly disagree with a Melee HD. Two smash games were modded to have Melee-like-features ( Project M / Melee HD ). A Smash4 port would be better than a Melee port, because the same game over with less characters is just "eh". I do love Melee, but I think it is fine as is.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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If the finished product is less mediocre than it looks then everyone wins.

Except those that would’ve just rather had more P:M. Which I’d wager is a lot of people.
I'd rather have more PM too, but that's kind of tangential to whether or not Icons is good or not and whether or not its quality is indicative of the value of getting the input of top players when making a game.

For one thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense to like PM but use Icons as an example to hate on top players design opinions. It makes even less sense because the PM designers were never top Melee players.
 

KingofPhantoms

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It just seems kind of silly to me to rag on a game that's not even out yet.
For the most part I can agree with this.

That said, it's perfectly fair for people to have legitimate complaints or concerns on a product based on the early information or preview footage they're given. But in most cases, it's better to give something a fair chance and not repeatedly trash it (there's certainly some exceptions, though).
 
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Al-kīmiyā'

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This opinion is going to be highly controversial, but I highly disagree with a Melee HD. Two smash games were modded to have Melee-like-features ( Project M / Melee HD ). A Smash4 port would be better than a Melee port, because the same game over with less characters is just "eh". I do love Melee, but I think it is fine as is.
For me, the appeal of a Melee port is being able to play on digital TVs, online play, ability to hack it, and more growth of the competitive scene.
 
D

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Their reddit AMA seemed to appease a lot of people, and as far as being a "soulless Melee clone," I'm not sure what you want. The whole idea is to emulate and hopefully improve on Melee.
Melee already exists, and making a f2p clone of it isn't exactly refining on anything. I was more of the opinion that they were gonna improve on the genre rather than assume Melee is the end-all-be-all of platform fighters and trying to cash in on the fanbase with a downgrade of the original game.

I won't deny the idea has potential, but that's possibly the most frustrating part of it all, that it does, and that they have talent amid their team, but are too attached to their original concept to let it properly evolve. And it burns extra hard that it came at the footend of Strongbad and Warchamp dissing like half the PMDT, and throwing away all of the hard work so many people had worked on, just cause they got cold feet that PM could hurt their precious idea. As well as how they handled that whole mess.

I have no qualms with the decisions they took, as they have every right to stop working on a free mod, but the lack of clarity and honesty behind that whole shutdown, especially toward their own colleagues, and then building up so much hype for such a mediocre product, and then refusing to listen to any of the feedback they had on reveal... well, it's no surprise people would react with such disdain.

Imo, least they could do, at least if they want some form of success, is do a radical change on the art direction. As an artist, it's the art of the game that's most off-putting to me. So much so I even did a redesign of one of their characters in hopes of inspiring them toward something more appealing:

dd5b8ed6-1730-4c8f-b866-453e64d659c2.png

But their sub has essentially become an echo chamber.

Ahh well, tbh, it's not my project, and not my problem. But having been so attached to PM, and excited for 4.0 (especially since the Lyn moveset was the one that I sent them), Icons being so bland can't help but leave a very sour taste in my mouth. Cause it could have been something truly awesome if only it was more inspired.

There's a few lessons to be learned here though, about biting off more than you can chew with your first game project, and not knowing when to kill your darlings. Two lessons I plan to make good use of with my own stuff in the coming years.

It just seems kind of silly to me to rag on a game that's not even out yet.
According to the devs, back in Sept, the characters that had been shown off till then were 80-90% done. I think it's safe to say this is very close to the final product.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

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I agree with most of what you say, but again, it doesn't make me think getting input from top players is a bad thing.
 

N3ON

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This opinion is going to be highly controversial, but I highly disagree with a Melee HD. Two smash games were modded to have Melee-like-features ( Project M / Melee HD ). A Smash4 port would be better than a Melee port, because the same game over with less characters is just "eh". I do love Melee, but I think it is fine as is.
I don't disagree with the concept of it, but seems like an inferior choice to a deluxe Smash 4 port. The Melee crowd is super vocal but very small, and simply releasing Melee as part of whatever back catalogue service we eventually get seems perfectly sufficient.

I'd rather have more PM too, but that's kind of tangential to whether or not Icons is good or not and whether or not its quality is indicative of the value of getting the input of top players when making a game.

For one thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense to like PM but use Icons as an example to hate on top players design opinions. It makes even less sense because the PM designers were never top Melee players.
Valid or not, that's only one reason people would rag on it. Personally I don't care about any of that. There are other reasons people would rag on it. Such as replacing a mod people cared about, with impending characters people cared about, with a new game they don't believe looks interesting. That's why I would rag on this game.

If you were only talking about one particular complaint perhaps specifying would've been beneficial. People have been coming at this from many angles.
 

Guybrush20X6

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I will say that Smsh 64 got a virtual console release on wii so as soon as GC VC is a thing, it's a possibility.
 
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I agree with most of what you say, but again, it doesn't make me think getting input from top players is a bad thing.
Input from top players isn't bad, in fact it us important when designing a competitive game. But it's also not absolute, and nowhere near as important as input from someone with experience in game development/game design.

More often than not, top level players only care about top level play, and have no vision for the lower and more casual levels of play, which I would argue are in fact MORE important as a healthy player base is important for a competitive game to even have a scene.

How much fun a game is to play casually, as well as how easy and accessible it is to learn and get into, and how much fun it is to WATCH are just as important for eSports as any deep or complex mechanics you can think of. It's a tough balance, and one most pro players aren't prepared for.
 
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